On March 19 2013 23:07 BluzMan wrote: Also, we've all been waiting 10 FUCKING YEARS to learn more about what Duran really is, and everything that is told is that he is an evil (actual game quote!) shapeshifter, and then he dies. Worst moment of the game tbh.
Yeah, duran going out like that was disappointing. Isn't he supposed to have 'seeded hybrids on hundreds of worlds!' or something like that? Maybe he isn't really dead...
My least favorite moment was when Kerrigan picks up Mengsk's news broadcast about Raynor's capture and execution. Did anyone for a second think Raynor had been unceremoniously killed, off-screen? Zero tension for me. And Kerrigan immediately buys it, despite her personal knowledge of Mengsk's trickery and lies. And immediately runs off to re-infest herself, after I spent an entire campaign cleaning that shit up. Oi.
People complaining about Zeratul getting beat up - it sure didn't look like Zeratul was there to fight. He didn't lift a finger to defend himself. He's obviously torn up about not only having to spare Kerrigan, but having to lead her directly back to being the queen of blades. After talking about how he deserves whatever judgement the other protoss give, it felt like he was just letting Kerrigan deliver the first punishment.
I enjoyed the campaign. Better than WoL on all levels, and I was already at least ok with WoL from a gameplay standpoint.
On March 19 2013 14:46 Gamegene wrote: As much as I liked the cutscenes for HOTS... can't help but feel cheated rewatching this.
I guess I'll have to wait for SC3 :/
That and Infested Stukov being a completely random character unrelated to his SC1 predecessor.
While not perfect (stukov hams up the Russian a bit too much) it is a good cinematic.
Sets out the ued as slightly reluctant bad guys, shows the friendship between stukov and dugall, the horrors of the war, a proto marauder. And it does this without excessive exposition and let's the viewer do a bit of inference. And styling the ued as European as compared to the red neck terrans is a nice touch. And the opera is great.
On March 19 2013 23:07 BluzMan wrote: Also, we've all been waiting 10 FUCKING YEARS to learn more about what Duran really is, and everything that is told is that he is an evil (actual game quote!) shapeshifter, and then he dies. Worst moment of the game tbh.
Yeah, duran going out like that was disappointing. Isn't he supposed to have 'seeded hybrids on hundreds of worlds!' or something like that? Maybe he isn't really dead...
My least favorite moment was when Kerrigan picks up Mengsk's news broadcast about Raynor's capture and execution. Did anyone for a second think Raynor had been unceremoniously killed, off-screen? Zero tension for me. And Kerrigan immediately buys it, despite her personal knowledge of Mengsk's trickery and lies. And immediately runs off to re-infest herself, after I spent an entire campaign cleaning that shit up. Oi.
People complaining about Zeratul getting beat up - it sure didn't look like Zeratul was there to fight. He didn't lift a finger to defend himself. He's obviously torn up about not only having to spare Kerrigan, but having to lead her directly back to being the queen of blades. After talking about how he deserves whatever judgement the other protoss give, it felt like he was just letting Kerrigan deliver the first punishment.
I enjoyed the campaign. Better than WoL on all levels, and I was already at least ok with WoL from a gameplay standpoint.
I blew through the HotS campaign (brutal) with muta-ling, and a Kerrigan that could spawn banelings and reconstitute lings (and then it was really game over when drop-pods unlocked). Can't say the same for the WoL campaign (and for that reason, I enjoyed the WoL campaign much more).
As to Kerrigan and Zeratul: seems like they couldn't come up with dialogue for their little story, so they resorted to a few lines of dialogue after a superfluous 'fight' scene. Was really disappointed with how the story turned out (CGI aside). Feels like they worked on the single player maybe 4 months of the last three years development time. Because yes, I actually am interested in the story... Or was at the end of BW. I almost feel cheated out of playing 'The Reckoning' that many times
It's a fact. Not an opinion. It's almost a science.
Sorry but you are wrong here. Storytelling is not math. It's not even close to a science. It's all about choosing a certain demographic you are targeting your story at, and from there on the standards change drastically.
Take the A song of ice and fire franchise, great storytelling by most adult standards. Put it up to opinion in a demographic full 12-16y old and you wont get the same result.
Now take the Harry Potter franchise. Switch the demographics. Check results.
The same can be said for music or movies. Take Bieber fans in one room and Metallica fans in another, both would consider their music true quality music and the other utter crap.
It all comes down to taste!
You're wrong. I read Game of thrones in 2001 (I was 14 at the time). Book fucking blew my mind, precisely because it was such an epic, great story, with pretty unpredictable twists that still made sense, lots of dark themes about the nature of humanity, a complex discussion about the nature of good and evil with LOTs of grey areas in between, a not entirely unreasonable portrayal of sex (although it was pretty gratuitous and weird at times) that wasn't a whitewashed manufactured romance, and characters that made pretty rational decisions given the information present to them and their own morality.
None of which exists in WoL.
I play Dota for multiplayer games for a long time now, but I fucking loved the storyline in starcraft (which had quite a few of the elements discussed in the above paragraph e.g. rational characers, plot lines that make sense, lack of deus ex machina plotlines, dark themes with appropriately introduced mysteries, the feeling that you're participating in a more epic, broad based storyline, etc.). Brood war story was kinda meh. I bought startcraft 2 WoL more for nostalgic reasons, and to see where they took the storyline. After that, I made a decision to not buy HotS, because the story was so fucking bad (jesus christ, the idea that Tychus was released from prison, and everything happened the way it did due to Mengk's machinations, just so he could get a shot at assassinating Kerrigan? That shit makes no sense at all....).
After reading this thread, I am not dissapointed by my decision.
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
Starcraft isn't a game for kids? I'm sorry, but have you played Call of Duty? Although it's rated M+, for some reason I hear a majority of prepubescent children every time I go online with it.
That and Infested Stukov being a completely random character unrelated to his SC1 predecessor.
I had forgotten that intro. It's sooo much like the cutscene from WoL where Sarah gets left behind by Mensk (The "remake" of the ending of that SC1 mission). Too bad for that marine he wasn't able to become the King of Blades.
I found the story of HotS to be OK, I guess. I somehow enjoyed WoL much more, I think because it felt deeper with more missions which didn't feel so linear. I also felt like there were more plot turns in WoL than in HotS. HotS was very forward and quick. Too quick for my taste.
Yeah, Starcraft was a lot darker - but then again it was setting up the environment of three brand new races and scenery. Saying the game was dark and rated M and not meant for kids is really laughable. Neither is Resident Evil, CoD, basically any shooter, or any of the good games either then.
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
So much bull about people saying about not buying HOTS. Lol. Like anyone actually believes that a TL Member won't buy HOTS.
We are not expecting Shakespeare, we are however expecting a story better than what we were presented with in primary school in the easy reading books when we were 5. Those stories stopped being entertaining when I was 4.
Many people aren't happy with how Mengsk was portrayed in Starcraft 2. To help everyone sleep at night, I have a theory that explains everything about Mengsk in SC2. I think it's actually quite obvious, if you think about it:
The guy has severe psychological issues since long before the beginning of the original Starcraft, what with the murder of his family and his home planet being nuked to oblivion. This much is clear. Mengsk is a smart dude, and he does a good job hiding his issues, which aren't affecting his thinking and leadership too much yet. At the start of the last Terran mission he finally snaps when Jim pushes him and you start to see what's going on. He starts slowly slipping from there, by Brood War you can see he's already turned into "Waah I want my planet!" "Kerrigan, you bitch, you said I could have my planet!"
After Brood War, Mengsk spends the next four years just sitting in his palace, barely having any social interaction with anyone, constantly fearing retaliation from either Kerrigan or Raynor, all the while convincing himself he's done nothing wrong and that in fact he truly is humanity's only hope of salvation. So after four years, Mengsk is basically a total nutjob who's lost touch with reality, and is barely aware of his surroundings. How he's still in power, I don't know. Maybe he's just a puppet at this point and his extremely corrupt advisors are the ones running the show. Dark and gritty, right? Mengsk being a tool in SC2 isn't bad writing, it's just part of his character arc. See, everything makes total sense, you just have to fill in the blanks! You're welcome.
Seriously, this is what I choose to believe. Also, general Horace "Send another bazillion-dollar Battlecruiser to her doom!" Warfield:
Warfield is basically a politician and has no idea what he's doing, but he's an old buddy of Mengsk and therefore a general. As Raynor points out in WoL, he actually retired years ago, but Mengsk - completely insane as he is - wants Warfield in charge of the Char operation. It all kinda comes together! At least Warfield cares about his troops on some level - after realizing that his utter incompetence has led to the deaths of thousands of his troops, he pleads Kerrigan to allow the survivors to be evacuated.
Now I kinda feel bad for the guy. I wish I had something for Duran/Narud, maybe someone can help.
You also have to admit that SC1/BW has its share of plot holes as well. If the Overmind had settled on Aiur and the Zerg have apparently taken over most of the planet and should have control over the skies, how do Tassadar, the Conclave et. al get around at all? How does Tassadar return to Aiur without getting shot down by a pack of Scourge first? If even feral Zerg without the control of the Overmind are sufficient to completely drive the Protoss off planet, how do Tassadar et. al ever get close enough to stage a frontal assault on the Overmind, even if they have killed off a couple Cerebrates? Why does Zeratul fall for Kerrigan's manipulations twice? Why isn't Kerrigan more curious about Duran - he's apparently an infested terran who was never mentioned in SC1 as one of the Overmind's minions. How does shutting down the defense network on Telematros allow Kerrigan to steal Raszagal from Shakuras? Shouldn't the constant operation of the Xelnaga temple, powered by the two crystals, be enough to zap any Zerg trying to land on the planet?
As much as I agree that some holes could be found in BW, you mostly pointed out things that aren't really one..
1. During the time Fenix died (for 1st time), Conclave led a seemingly successful campaign against the Zerg - in mission 3, under your command, the fleet of the executor drives back two broods; And in original sc, there are always actions happening simultaneously, so probably other battles have happened, which forced Overmind to regroup his forces. Don't underestimate the Protoss.
Feral zerg forcing Protoss off Aiur can be very easily explained: 1. The invasion began in episode II; Many battles have been fought since. Every single is slowly weakening the first born. 2. Although they managed to drive zerg back for a little bit, they lost Antioch outpost with their Praetor, Fenix. 3. Then the civil war began; Many protoss also lost their lives. 4. Finally, they engaged the very (true one) heart of the swarm, and they managed to do so only because Overmind was stunned; Imagine the potential of the zerg guarding him, and it was unleashed on Protoss the moment Overmind died. Moreover, their the mighty Tassadar with the all-powerful Ganthrithor; The casualties were too severe to continue fighting the zerg.
2. How does Zeratul fail to Kerrigan's manipulation twice? He never found out Matriarch was infested, and he only had very little clues about that possibility. He even suspected this(I remember there was a Zeratul's line that he's worried about the Matriarch), but his loyalty to Raszagal prevailed.
3. Well, I could be wrong, but from what I understood, the temple wasn't zapping constantly - it made a one huge zap, killed every zerg and that's it. Activating it required 30 in-game minutes, so it wasn't just "push the button", especially if Kerrigan's action was quick and efficient (and with Duran leading, it's safe to assume it was).
However, as I said earlier in the post, I do believe there are some weak points in original SC story:
1. Tassadar's action during his return on Aiur was absolutely stupid and pointless... He surrendered to avoid Protoss killing Protoss, but his allies rescued him and in result even more of his brethren died.
2. Why did Duran took any action against UED? Was he an agent of Kerrigan already? And, why did he help her? From sc2 point of view it made no sense, as she was the only one possibly stopping the hybrid. I think that's the most obvious reason that WoL and Hots storyline was not something the original writers had in mind when doing BW. She was obviously important to the evil plan, not the only weak point it had. Sadly, Metzen just kills Duran, without even bothering to explain his motives in some way.
3. Finally, how did Kerrigan chased down the whole UED? DuGalle didn't take part in the combat personally; And his cruiser for sure had some kind of warp drive, that could easily take him back to Earth. Even if not, at least a few cruisers out of whole fleet should have made it.
On March 19 2013 13:39 Starshaped wrote: SC1 didn't have a great story either, it's just nostalgia making it look good. It was cheesy and shallow but at least it had a sense of grandeur about it, whereas SC2 focuses so much on these one-dimensional characters nobody can relate to.
scbw's story was great. the overall theme was cheesy, yes i agree. humans, insects, aliens, blahblah. but thats not what starcraft the story was about. there was this large war going on, but you were following the story of three 'side characters' - kerrigan under the overmind, tassadar/fenix under the conclave, raynor under mengsk/etc. it gave this charm to the story in that you felt like you were just a small piece participating in something much bigger war (the 'grandeur'). further the writing (character lines) and voice acting is what really made the story good.
when bw came around, this setting somewhat remained as well. kerrigan started the game with us believing she was this kind of ragtag commander in charge of the remaining zerg forces. and she kept that identity for much of the game by being mischievous, plotting behind-the-scenes, until her grand moment to emerge. even when the UED entered the scene, we commanded stukov for most of the game, and was privy to some of the best missions in the game.
i wont go into much detail about what changed with sc2, thats already common knowledge now. but to point out, the big difference is the lack of this 'grandeur'. because now blizzard is following from the individual player's perspectives, there's so much missed character interaction, missed backstory, just missed everything. and the terrible writers they hired to do the script of the game didn't help the cause.
what is truly cheesy is the love story, that shouldnt even exist. the 'ancient artifact' of the 'ancient race' xelnaga. all the other forgettable cheesy supporting characters (i dont even remember the name of that nerd guy). it goes on and on ...
On March 19 2013 13:39 Starshaped wrote: SC1 didn't have a great story either, it's just nostalgia making it look good. It was cheesy and shallow but at least it had a sense of grandeur about it, whereas SC2 focuses so much on these one-dimensional characters nobody can relate to.
scbw's story was great. the overall theme was cheesy, yes i agree. humans, insects, aliens, blahblah. but thats not what starcraft the story was about. there was this large war going on, but you were following the story of three 'side characters' - kerrigan under the overmind, tassadar/fenix under the conclave, raynor under mengsk/etc. it gave this charm to the story in that you felt like you were just a small piece participating in something much bigger war (the 'grandeur'). further the writing (character lines) and voice acting is what really made the story good.
when bw came around, this setting somewhat remained as well. kerrigan started the game with us believing she was this kind of ragtag commander in charge of the remaining zerg forces. and she kept that identity for much of the game by being mischievous, plotting behind-the-scenes, until her grand moment to emerge. even when the UED entered the scene, we commanded stukov for most of the game, and was privy to some of the best missions in the game.
i wont go into much detail about what changed with sc2, thats already common knowledge now. but to point out, the big difference is the lack of this 'grandeur'. because now blizzard is following from the individual player's perspectives, there's so much missed character interaction, missed backstory, just missed everything. and the terrible writers they hired to do the script of the game didn't help the cause.
what is truly cheesy is the love story, that shouldnt even exist. the 'ancient artifact' of the 'ancient race' xelnaga. all the other forgettable cheesy supporting characters (i dont even remember the name of that nerd guy). it goes on and on ...
I don't think it's really the writers of the game that are responsible for the tone and the story, I imagine they have very little freedom. If you look at HotS, probably all of the side dialogue is written by people they hired for this game specifically (and most of this is competent character building and technobabble), but the main Raynor/Kerrigan/Mengsk interactions and the overall feel of the missions are the responsibility of Metzen. There is a reason that the story feels so much like a big franchise movie, it's because it's so apparent there are all these aspects to it that are only in the story because they need to be because they would be iconic. The writers, even Metzen, have to work around those constraints and it's pretty difficult.
On March 19 2013 23:12 Gh0s7[5thf] wrote: Oh fuck what if Blizzard decides to do LotV like: Zeratul brings everybody together bla bla but Amon is still to powerful so in order to defeat him they find a way/artefact/wtf so that Kerri absorbs Zeratuls essence and becomes the ultimate hybrid. She then proceeds to DBZ Amon's ass and in the ultimate fights the surge of energy from their imba power rays kills Amon / apparently kills Kerry too (but actually restores Sarah to human form and she is found by Raynor somewhere lying down).
How would that be for the most cheesy stuff they coudl throw at it ? :D Calling it now! =))
Great, thanks for spoiling it. Though you forgot to mention that before the final showdown, Zeratul finds some excuse to disappear, telling Jim and Sarah "It's up to you two, now!" so that they can share an emotional moment together before the battle. Protoss fans are outraged.
About Zeratul/Kerrigan (although I will not buy HotS I have watched a play-through of the campaign)
Zeratul: Damn you, Kerrigan, for what I must do! [he frees Raszagal] Raszagal, Protoss Matriarch: Thank you, Zeratul... You have freed me from her vile control at last. You have always served me with honor... Thus I must ask you... to watch over my tribe... Into your hands I give the future. [Zeratul kills her] Kerrigan: I can hardly believe this! You've killed your own Matriarch! Zeratul: Better that I killed her, than let her live as your slave, Kerrigan. Kerrigan: Well, I have misjudged you, warrior. You are worthy, indeed. You are free to go. Zeratul: What? Kerrigan: I said, you are free to go. I've already taken your honor. I'll let you live, because I know that from now on; your every waking moment will be torture. You'll never be able to forgive yourself for what I've forced you to do. And that, Zeratul, is a better revenge than I could have ever dreamed of. Zeratul: You will regret this decision, Kerrigan. We shall meet again.
Zeratul: Damn you, Kerrigan, for what I must do! [he frees Raszagal] Raszagal, Protoss Matriarch: Thank you, Zeratul... You have freed me from her vile control at last. You have always served me with honor... Thus I must ask you... to watch over my tribe... Into your hands I give the future. [Zeratul kills her] Kerrigan: I can hardly believe this! You've killed your own Matriarch! Zeratul: Better that I killed her, than let her live as your slave, Kerrigan. Kerrigan: Well, I have misjudged you, warrior. You are worthy, indeed. You are free to go. Zeratul: What? Kerrigan: I said, you are free to go. I've already taken your honor. I'll let you live, because I know that from now on; your every waking moment will be torture. You'll never be able to forgive yourself for what I've forced you to do. And that, Zeratul, is a better revenge than I could have ever dreamed of. Zeratul: You will regret this decision, Kerrigan. We shall meet again.
EDIT: Or am I missing something?
They turned zeratul into a gandalf in SC2. Hes now a mithrandil trying to save the people of.. the Koprulu sector from impending doom
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
Because the choices are either Shakespeare or:
"The ship keeps jumping to randomized locations. It is impossible to predict where it will be." "But it needs to re-supply." "Yes, and that's why we know EXACTLY where it will be!"
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
Because the choices are either Shakespeare or:
"The ship keeps jumping to randomized locations. It is impossible to predict where it will be." "But it needs to re-supply." "Yes, and that's why we know EXACTLY where it will be!"
There's simply nothing in between. No way.
Guess i must be dumb and stupid cause i honestly don't see anything wrong with any of those sentences.
Maybe cause i never saw a decent story when growing up i guess.
Care to explain what exactly is wrong with them other then "it is cheesy/bad"?
You also have to admit that SC1/BW has its share of plot holes as well. If the Overmind had settled on Aiur and the Zerg have apparently taken over most of the planet and should have control over the skies, how do Tassadar, the Conclave et. al get around at all? How does Tassadar return to Aiur without getting shot down by a pack of Scourge first? If even feral Zerg without the control of the Overmind are sufficient to completely drive the Protoss off planet, how do Tassadar et. al ever get close enough to stage a frontal assault on the Overmind, even if they have killed off a couple Cerebrates? Why does Zeratul fall for Kerrigan's manipulations twice? Why isn't Kerrigan more curious about Duran - he's apparently an infested terran who was never mentioned in SC1 as one of the Overmind's minions. How does shutting down the defense network on Telematros allow Kerrigan to steal Raszagal from Shakuras? Shouldn't the constant operation of the Xelnaga temple, powered by the two crystals, be enough to zap any Zerg trying to land on the planet?
As much as I agree that some holes could be found in BW, you mostly pointed out things that aren't really one..
1. During the time Fenix died (for 1st time), Conclave led a seemingly successful campaign against the Zerg - in mission 3, under your command, the fleet of the executor drives back two broods; And in original sc, there are always actions happening simultaneously, so probably other battles have happened, which forced Overmind to regroup his forces. Don't underestimate the Protoss.
Feral zerg forcing Protoss off Aiur can be very easily explained: 1. The invasion began in episode II; Many battles have been fought since. Every single is slowly weakening the first born. 2. Although they managed to drive zerg back for a little bit, they lost Antioch outpost with their Praetor, Fenix. 3. Then the civil war began; Many protoss also lost their lives. 4. Finally, they engaged the very (true one) heart of the swarm, and they managed to do so only because Overmind was stunned; Imagine the potential of the zerg guarding him, and it was unleashed on Protoss the moment Overmind died. Moreover, their the mighty Tassadar with the all-powerful Ganthrithor; The casualties were too severe to continue fighting the zerg.
2. How does Zeratul fail to Kerrigan's manipulation twice? He never found out Matriarch was infested, and he only had very little clues about that possibility. He even suspected this(I remember there was a Zeratul's line that he's worried about the Matriarch), but his loyalty to Raszagal prevailed.
3. Well, I could be wrong, but from what I understood, the temple wasn't zapping constantly - it made a one huge zap, killed every zerg and that's it. Activating it required 30 in-game minutes, so it wasn't just "push the button", especially if Kerrigan's action was quick and efficient (and with Duran leading, it's safe to assume it was).
However, as I said earlier in the post, I do believe there are some weak points in original SC story:
1. Tassadar's action during his return on Aiur was absolutely stupid and pointless... He surrendered to avoid Protoss killing Protoss, but his allies rescued him and in result even more of his brethren died.
2. Why did Duran took any action against UED? Was he an agent of Kerrigan already? And, why did he help her? From sc2 point of view it made no sense, as she was the only one possibly stopping the hybrid. I think that's the most obvious reason that WoL and Hots storyline was not something the original writers had in mind when doing BW. She was obviously important to the evil plan, not the only weak point it had. Sadly, Metzen just kills Duran, without even bothering to explain his motives in some way.
3. Finally, how did Kerrigan chased down the whole UED? DuGalle didn't take part in the combat personally; And his cruiser for sure had some kind of warp drive, that could easily take him back to Earth. Even if not, at least a few cruisers out of whole fleet should have made it.
Why did Mengsk leave Kerrigan behind? How come UED is so similar to the terrans in the Koprulu sector? The latter are supposed to be exiled prisoners and one would assume they'd have totally different technology compared to the former, yet it's pretty much the same. Why does the overmind leave Kerrigan behind when it attacks Aiur? Wouldn't it make sense to bring one of your strongest "agents" with you to ensure victory?
Answer these questions without SC2/books. I'm pretty sure there's more I don't remember SC1 much since I played quite some time ago.
SC1 had a lot of plotholes that were "patched" with books, but you can say the same for SC2. Some people said a good VG shouldn't need books to do this, I kinda agree but it is what it is. SC1 has as many weak points as SC2 does but people forget it for some reason.
EPT
