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I vaguely remember a thread a while ago (a year or so maybe) where Carmac basically told the same thing. Apparently they still have "trouble" paying prize money, which does not make them look too good.
~ edit
Found the thread. It was Carmac's response to ClouD's thread about prize money not being transferred by various tournaments including ESL. So yeah, the promise of paying on time was made before. Let's see if they are serious this time.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable.
well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs?
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On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs?
if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament.
you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well.
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Yeah i'm kinda curious aswell where they got this money all of a sudden..
Oh well. Better late than never I guess.
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On February 14 2013 06:21 RaiZ wrote:Yeah i'm kinda curious aswell where they got this money all of a sudden.. Oh well. Better late than never I guess.
League of legends company Riot contracted them to produce their european weekly league, which has huge production values.
It started last week, probably not a coincidence.
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On February 14 2013 06:24 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:21 RaiZ wrote:Yeah i'm kinda curious aswell where they got this money all of a sudden.. Oh well. Better late than never I guess. League of legends company Riot contracted them to produce their european weekly league, which has huge production values. It started last week, probably not a coincidence.
I guess E-Sports can coexist  .
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On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well.
This is already pretty standard for tourney contracts... most of them reserve a payment period.
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On February 14 2013 06:28 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. This is already pretty standard for tourney contracts... most of them reserve a payment period.
i am cool with them putting whatever they want into their contracts as long as everyone knows beforehand (e.g., before they expend time or money on the tournament). not cool with them advertising a big prize pool, having players show up to play, win and then having to wait months for a payout because the tourney is underfunded.
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at least they pay and ESL is alot bigger than a random Esports organisation. so things take longer.
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Its not really instant, they have gradually been reducing their backlog payments over a period of 18 months, according to their statement.
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On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs?
If you don't have the capital before the tournament to pay for the venue + prizes + operation, then you shouldn't be holding a tournament. After the tournament you can worry about profit and whatever bonuses you receive from stream views ect.
Edit: ESL does usually pay, even if people have to wait a long time unlike other tournaments / organizations.
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prizes should only be allowed pay from money they already have ... nice now, but generally, 30days max
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Oh my I really hope they didn't went into more debts to accomplish this. But it is good for the players.
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On February 14 2013 06:13 419fish wrote:there is no way they could have given out 12 million dollars? a million a year is pretty steep
Well, the IEM does belong to the ESL, and they do not only support sc2.
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On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well.
you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it.
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On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it.
if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree.
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ESL was the biggest thing that ever hapenned in euro e-sports after clanbase started to fail. and before dreamhack became such a good and stable organizer.
I'm glad for them and especially for e-sports!
Because they are the biggest event organizer for many countries. Not all of us have a MLG or dreamhack, but all of us can have a ESL league or participate in them.
It's your duty to pay but you should pay faster! GL
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It's pretty sad that paying people their prizes is news.
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On February 14 2013 06:11 MCXD wrote:
People are complaining about e-sports businesses owing massive sums of cash as if it's unusual when... pretty much every government, sporting organization and many major corporations on the planet do the exact same thing?
The world runs and sits on borrowed and owed money. That's part of the reason why we have massive economic issues every few years. Someone can't pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone, and thus everything comes to a grinding halt. E-sports isn't "illegitimate" or any other BS over this, without claiming that everything else that does this is.
I totally agree that it's bad, but comments like "oh this is why e-sports isn't big" is just... ugh.
I don't know how payments are handled in rl sports events but in regular business to business transactions a gap of more than 3 months is unusual and early payment (within the first 1-2 weeks) is usually rewarded with a discount.
In Germany a payment target of more than 30 days has to be negotiated explicitly & individually with your suppliers (otherwise the debt is considered in default after 30 days).
Some very large companies here have managed to push their payment targets beyond 90 days exploiting the depressed economy and the weak negotiation position of their suppliers during the aftermath of the financial crisis - however, it is important to point out that these payment targets are not random delays but timeframes that are clearly communicated and a result of price negotiations.The supplier is well aware that he is providing a loan to his business partner.
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EPT
