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Didn't see a topic for it yet.
Good news for all the progamers out there still waiting on their prizemoney.
ESL has been working hard to pay out all overdue prize money for over the last 18 months. Currently they are working on the last backlogged payments. They expect to have made all remaining payments by the end of february.
This news was expected to be released in a statement when all payments were done, but apparently the news got out faster due to some complaints on reddit. This was merely a coincidence according to Carmac.
Paul “ReDeYe” Chaloner, Head of Content & Media ESL in response to a post on reddit.
I want to take this opportunity to apologise to the original poster and to those of you who have had or have issues with prize money not being paid out quickly enough.
Since I joined ESL just over a month ago, we have been working internally on ensuring all of the prize money owed is paid and alongside this ensuring a more robust system is put in place to ensure it doesn’t happen again in the future.
If people still haven't received their entitled prizemoney they can use the following link to make a ticket: http://www.esl.eu/eu/prizemoney
ESFI Article
http://www.esfiworld.com/esl-to-pay-off-overdue-prize-money-by-the-end-of-february/
ESL statement
+ Show Spoiler +Over the last 12 years the ESL has paid out over $12,000,000 in prize money. Historically, there have been issues with some prize money being paid late. We have worked hard to eradicate these issues over the last 18 months and are now working on the final, remaining backlog of overdue prizes. We can announce today that this process will be completed by the end of February and there will be no overdue prize money at that point. If you or your team have not been paid prize money by then, please use our ticketing system available here: http://www.esl.eu/eu/prizemoneyWe apologise for any inconvenience you may have gone through during this period. We are taking this topic extremely seriously and to address any further concerns our CEO Ralf Reichert will conduct a Reddit AMA about this topic early next week.
Link to source: http://www.esl.eu/eu/news/214853/
Standard time for punctual payments for ESL now will be 90 days max.
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Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
This issue, more than fanbases, more than boring game quality, more than bad casters, is probably the #1 thing holding back esports from hitting mainstream. Sports is a business. You can run a business saying "we'll just pay our bills whenever we like", but it won't be respectable
EDIT: I didn't write this to mean that any delay in paying people is not acceptable--I wrote this to mean that it's okay to delay if you tell them in advance you will delay payment 30, 60, or 90 days, but it's not okay if you say you'll pay up front but then delay 30, 60, or 90 days. It's a credibility issue, not a timeliness issue
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well said Shady, I would also be interested in this.
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Hell, it's about god damn time
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Yay! I can finally get my 1,000,000 for wining that tourny! finally!
just kidding of course, but glad that they are taking charge!
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Pretty good for the european scene that they finally catch up on this
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Mark cuban should try and start some events, motherfucker makes money doing anything
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On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties.
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On February 14 2013 03:07 Hodgyy wrote:
Mark cuban should try and start some events, motherfucker makes money doing anything
Who says he isn't dumping money to MLG?
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On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties.
Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this?
do we really need to make such a huugee pitchfork fuss? i'm happy for ESL that they're doing this
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Cool for the players and ESL! 
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In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Excellent news, I'm glad ESL were able to sort out the issues.
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On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this?
There's a difference, some entities just flat out don't pay what they promised, which isn't rare in esports, sadly, and other just pay late (ESL)
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Well at least this is happening now, and it seems like ESL is doing the right thing about setting themselves a three month pay date. I'm pleased.
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On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this?
Because the only proof of this is what random forumgoer X says
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On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want.
tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable.
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People are complaining about e-sports businesses owing massive sums of cash as if it's unusual when... pretty much every government, sporting organization and many major corporations on the planet do the exact same thing?
The world runs and sits on borrowed and owed money. That's part of the reason why we have massive economic issues every few years. Someone can't pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone, and thus everything comes to a grinding halt. E-sports isn't "illegitimate" or any other BS over this, without claiming that everything else that does this is.
I totally agree that it's bad, but comments like "oh this is why e-sports isn't big" is just... ugh.
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Over the last 12 years the ESL has paid out over $12,000,000 in prize money
there is no way they could have given out 12 million dollars?
a million a year is pretty steep
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I vaguely remember a thread a while ago (a year or so maybe) where Carmac basically told the same thing. Apparently they still have "trouble" paying prize money, which does not make them look too good.
~ edit
Found the thread. It was Carmac's response to ClouD's thread about prize money not being transferred by various tournaments including ESL. So yeah, the promise of paying on time was made before. Let's see if they are serious this time.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable.
well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs?
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On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs?
if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament.
you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well.
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Yeah i'm kinda curious aswell where they got this money all of a sudden..
Oh well. Better late than never I guess.
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On February 14 2013 06:21 RaiZ wrote:Yeah i'm kinda curious aswell where they got this money all of a sudden.. Oh well. Better late than never I guess.
League of legends company Riot contracted them to produce their european weekly league, which has huge production values.
It started last week, probably not a coincidence.
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On February 14 2013 06:24 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:21 RaiZ wrote:Yeah i'm kinda curious aswell where they got this money all of a sudden.. Oh well. Better late than never I guess. League of legends company Riot contracted them to produce their european weekly league, which has huge production values. It started last week, probably not a coincidence.
I guess E-Sports can coexist  .
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On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well.
This is already pretty standard for tourney contracts... most of them reserve a payment period.
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On February 14 2013 06:28 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. This is already pretty standard for tourney contracts... most of them reserve a payment period.
i am cool with them putting whatever they want into their contracts as long as everyone knows beforehand (e.g., before they expend time or money on the tournament). not cool with them advertising a big prize pool, having players show up to play, win and then having to wait months for a payout because the tourney is underfunded.
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at least they pay and ESL is alot bigger than a random Esports organisation. so things take longer.
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Its not really instant, they have gradually been reducing their backlog payments over a period of 18 months, according to their statement.
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On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs?
If you don't have the capital before the tournament to pay for the venue + prizes + operation, then you shouldn't be holding a tournament. After the tournament you can worry about profit and whatever bonuses you receive from stream views ect.
Edit: ESL does usually pay, even if people have to wait a long time unlike other tournaments / organizations.
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prizes should only be allowed pay from money they already have ... nice now, but generally, 30days max
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Oh my I really hope they didn't went into more debts to accomplish this. But it is good for the players.
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On February 14 2013 06:13 419fish wrote:there is no way they could have given out 12 million dollars? a million a year is pretty steep
Well, the IEM does belong to the ESL, and they do not only support sc2.
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On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well.
you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it.
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On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it.
if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree.
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ESL was the biggest thing that ever hapenned in euro e-sports after clanbase started to fail. and before dreamhack became such a good and stable organizer.
I'm glad for them and especially for e-sports!
Because they are the biggest event organizer for many countries. Not all of us have a MLG or dreamhack, but all of us can have a ESL league or participate in them.
It's your duty to pay but you should pay faster! GL
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It's pretty sad that paying people their prizes is news.
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On February 14 2013 06:11 MCXD wrote:
People are complaining about e-sports businesses owing massive sums of cash as if it's unusual when... pretty much every government, sporting organization and many major corporations on the planet do the exact same thing?
The world runs and sits on borrowed and owed money. That's part of the reason why we have massive economic issues every few years. Someone can't pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone who needed the money to pay back someone, and thus everything comes to a grinding halt. E-sports isn't "illegitimate" or any other BS over this, without claiming that everything else that does this is.
I totally agree that it's bad, but comments like "oh this is why e-sports isn't big" is just... ugh.
I don't know how payments are handled in rl sports events but in regular business to business transactions a gap of more than 3 months is unusual and early payment (within the first 1-2 weeks) is usually rewarded with a discount.
In Germany a payment target of more than 30 days has to be negotiated explicitly & individually with your suppliers (otherwise the debt is considered in default after 30 days).
Some very large companies here have managed to push their payment targets beyond 90 days exploiting the depressed economy and the weak negotiation position of their suppliers during the aftermath of the financial crisis - however, it is important to point out that these payment targets are not random delays but timeframes that are clearly communicated and a result of price negotiations.The supplier is well aware that he is providing a loan to his business partner.
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On February 14 2013 05:38 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this? do we really need to make such a huugee pitchfork fuss? i'm happy for ESL that they're doing this
Because this is the sort of shit that hurts eSports as a credible business, as opposed to issues like "oh this game is boring to watch" or "these casters suck". I mean, stuff like this directly hurts TB's ability to draw sponsors or FXO's ability to maximize the return on his marketing dollars.
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I know if I was in the business, I would be pretty pissed off that this sort of stuff was par for the course.
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Yeah without LoL this would not have been possible. Already the last year it provided the main source of revenue for ESL, helping out to reduce the prize money debts in other games. Now with season 3 they seem to have gotten even more money.
Good news. There was a time where I thought ESL, or rather Turtle Entertainment, is dead and will file for bankruptcy soon.
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On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree.
but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever.
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On February 14 2013 08:00 Comogury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree. but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever.
im fine with esl disappearing if they cant pay the players on time, or the players wont agree to delayed payment.
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On February 14 2013 08:02 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:00 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree. but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever. im fine with esl disappearing if they cant pay the players on time, or the players wont agree to delayed payment.
If they had stopped hosting tournaments because they lacked money, they would not have been able to pay out the old prize money they owed ever. They just would have to file for bankruptcy. Basically they hosted new tournements to pay off the debt for their old tournaments. The last years everybody that took part in ESL tournaments should have known that though.
Lets just be glad that ESL seems to have been able to make enough profits now (probably due to LoL) to pay off their old debts. In the end they seem to have done the right thing with continuing despite the debts, because it allowed players to get their money.
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On February 14 2013 08:02 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:00 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree. but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever. im fine with esl disappearing if they cant pay the players on time, or the players wont agree to delayed payment.
again, that's just you. people still want iem, lol's lcs, go4 cups and all the other stuff that they do and have been doing for the past 16 years.
esl cannot just say that they are going to delay the winners' prize money without having an estimate. how long would they tell players to wait when they really have no idea themselves? in some of the cases from the weekly tournaments, people haven't gotten their money in months. esl probably doesn't expect to not to be able pay people for half a year. if it's up to the sponsors to give the money to esl, then it's really not in their hands. the best they can do is keep asking over and over again, hoping that they will get the money in a timely manner.
hopefully they are more punctual from here on out.
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On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this?
Why would I be looking into it? None of my players are owed prize money. I'm not Slasher, this is his kind of business.
But no, not every esports organization owes people money. I pay all my tournament prizes within 24 hours of the end of the event and our players are all paid up so hey, I can't imagine we are the only organization like that.
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Good, hopefully this solves things without any further drama. We don't need more drama.
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On February 14 2013 06:13 419fish wrote:there is no way they could have given out 12 million dollars? a million a year is pretty steep
We do a lot, lot more than most people realise. It all adds up
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Good news. Paul is a hero.
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On February 14 2013 07:57 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:38 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this? do we really need to make such a huugee pitchfork fuss? i'm happy for ESL that they're doing this Because this is the sort of shit that hurts eSports as a credible business, as opposed to issues like "oh this game is boring to watch" or "these casters suck". I mean, stuff like this directly hurts TB's ability to draw sponsors or FXO's ability to maximize the return on his marketing dollars.
More than how much this "hurts e-sports", I ve always been shocked on the effect on players trying to make a living out of gaming... The wait must be really stressful, I really loath the fact that ESL, which is supposedly are serious organisation, has been so late on payments.
Prize Money being given out SHOULD not be dependant on sponsors paying up on time. The players SHOULD not be the ones to pay for this...
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People have been upset about this for ages and rightfully so. Really big announcement by ESL. Very good for the scene.
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Im so happy to hear ESL finally got through the years of being basically bankrupt back to being able to pay within a forseeable future, go ESL!
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Someone who pay his bills to late for the last 5 years and make excuses for the last 5 years,
announce he will pay and make excuses.
So nothing changed.
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On February 16 2013 20:10 Desertfaux wrote:
Im so happy to hear ESL finally got through the years of being basically bankrupt back to being able to pay within a forseeable future, go ESL!
Maybe its because their top viewer numbers have increased by over 400% recently.
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this also include price money of small tournament like the "200 every week" tournament?
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EPT
