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On February 14 2013 05:38 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this? do we really need to make such a huugee pitchfork fuss? i'm happy for ESL that they're doing this
Because this is the sort of shit that hurts eSports as a credible business, as opposed to issues like "oh this game is boring to watch" or "these casters suck". I mean, stuff like this directly hurts TB's ability to draw sponsors or FXO's ability to maximize the return on his marketing dollars.
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I know if I was in the business, I would be pretty pissed off that this sort of stuff was par for the course.
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Germany24794 Posts
Yeah without LoL this would not have been possible. Already the last year it provided the main source of revenue for ESL, helping out to reduce the prize money debts in other games. Now with season 3 they seem to have gotten even more money.
Good news. There was a time where I thought ESL, or rather Turtle Entertainment, is dead and will file for bankruptcy soon.
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On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree.
but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever.
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On February 14 2013 08:00 Comogury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree. but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever.
im fine with esl disappearing if they cant pay the players on time, or the players wont agree to delayed payment.
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Germany24794 Posts
On February 14 2013 08:02 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:00 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree. but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever. im fine with esl disappearing if they cant pay the players on time, or the players wont agree to delayed payment.
If they had stopped hosting tournaments because they lacked money, they would not have been able to pay out the old prize money they owed ever. They just would have to file for bankruptcy. Basically they hosted new tournements to pay off the debt for their old tournaments. The last years everybody that took part in ESL tournaments should have known that though.
Lets just be glad that ESL seems to have been able to make enough profits now (probably due to LoL) to pay off their old debts. In the end they seem to have done the right thing with continuing despite the debts, because it allowed players to get their money.
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On February 14 2013 08:02 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:00 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 07:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 07:31 Comogury wrote:On February 14 2013 06:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 06:18 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 06:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 14 2013 05:47 Lonyo wrote:
In the real world there are often significant amounts owed to people in major businesses.
While all organisations will owe people money, it's more about how long it's delayed for.
ESL was on the extreme end, but you can't expect instant payments all the time.
There may also be tax related issues etc that people might not consider, as well as competitions not being paid the money they are owed from sponsors.
While e-sports and the internet may be instant, the real world of business isn't.
Pitchfork 12 month delays, probably 6 month delays with no communication, but the 3 months ESL is now aiming for isn't unreasonable, given that organisations will probably need to wait to receive sponsor money, then pay people in order of priority (like venues so they can go back to them) and players when able.
They will also need to ensure they have enough money for deposits or flights etc for some events, so even if they have cash available, they can't always use all of it for whatever they want. tournament organizers should not be entitled to say "i didnt get paid by the sponsors," and thus, im not paying you or im delaying payment. that is unacceptable. well if you don't have the capital where are you expected to pay from? take out a business loan, or pay from the pockets of the CEOs? if you dont have the capital to pay players timely, you dont run a tournament. you can also say up front that you wont pay them until sponsors pay out. i am fine with that as well. you might be fine with it, but how do you think players will feel about that? i'm pretty sure most will not play in such tournaments that basically state that they don't have money with no eta on when they will get it. if they arent fine with it, they dont play in it. its a contract--both sides have to agree. but you don't want to end up with a tournament that features a single digit number of teams. it's a bad situation for everyone if something like that happens. sponsors will look at it say "wow, maybe we shouldn't sponsor something like this if only 30 people are interested," effectively cutting esl off. then esl will risk not being able to have any tournaments ever. im fine with esl disappearing if they cant pay the players on time, or the players wont agree to delayed payment.
again, that's just you. people still want iem, lol's lcs, go4 cups and all the other stuff that they do and have been doing for the past 16 years.
esl cannot just say that they are going to delay the winners' prize money without having an estimate. how long would they tell players to wait when they really have no idea themselves? in some of the cases from the weekly tournaments, people haven't gotten their money in months. esl probably doesn't expect to not to be able pay people for half a year. if it's up to the sponsors to give the money to esl, then it's really not in their hands. the best they can do is keep asking over and over again, hoping that they will get the money in a timely manner.
hopefully they are more punctual from here on out.
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On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this?
Why would I be looking into it? None of my players are owed prize money. I'm not Slasher, this is his kind of business.
But no, not every esports organization owes people money. I pay all my tournament prizes within 24 hours of the end of the event and our players are all paid up so hey, I can't imagine we are the only organization like that.
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Good, hopefully this solves things without any further drama. We don't need more drama.
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On February 14 2013 06:13 419fish wrote:there is no way they could have given out 12 million dollars? a million a year is pretty steep
We do a lot, lot more than most people realise. It all adds up
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Good news. Paul is a hero.
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On February 14 2013 07:57 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:38 opterown wrote:On February 14 2013 03:29 Shady Sands wrote:On February 14 2013 03:08 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2013 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:
Just a quick question: how many esports organizations actually owe money, and how much?
Every single one. Some owe it to players, some to other parties. Why isn't Totalbiscuit or FXOBoss looking into this? do we really need to make such a huugee pitchfork fuss? i'm happy for ESL that they're doing this Because this is the sort of shit that hurts eSports as a credible business, as opposed to issues like "oh this game is boring to watch" or "these casters suck". I mean, stuff like this directly hurts TB's ability to draw sponsors or FXO's ability to maximize the return on his marketing dollars.
More than how much this "hurts e-sports", I ve always been shocked on the effect on players trying to make a living out of gaming... The wait must be really stressful, I really loath the fact that ESL, which is supposedly are serious organisation, has been so late on payments.
Prize Money being given out SHOULD not be dependant on sponsors paying up on time. The players SHOULD not be the ones to pay for this...
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People have been upset about this for ages and rightfully so. Really big announcement by ESL. Very good for the scene.
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Im so happy to hear ESL finally got through the years of being basically bankrupt back to being able to pay within a forseeable future, go ESL!
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Someone who pay his bills to late for the last 5 years and make excuses for the last 5 years,
announce he will pay and make excuses.
So nothing changed.
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On February 16 2013 20:10 Desertfaux wrote:
Im so happy to hear ESL finally got through the years of being basically bankrupt back to being able to pay within a forseeable future, go ESL!
Maybe its because their top viewer numbers have increased by over 400% recently.
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this also include price money of small tournament like the "200 every week" tournament?
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EPT
