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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
also, I have to say, I am continuously reminded how awesome our community is. I hope everyone keeps bringing these quality projects, threads, ideas etc, everything. I love it so much. I need to find a a way to give back more. Maybe ill start a movement to help mappers test their maps.. I know its hard to get melee maps tested let alone UMS | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
On December 29 2012 18:11 Noocta wrote: Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example irradiate shuts down mass mutas if i recall correctly (lol). also, terrans started building valks with their initial bio army to effectively negate the mutas. so thats one example down | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On December 30 2012 08:24 CursOr wrote: I never looked at that menu before game. Thank you very much!! Have fun! I wonder, is it possible to change the UI so that 12 wireframes fit in the UI perfectly? | ||
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
On December 29 2012 19:55 Rabiator wrote: No it wont work, because even if Terrans have the units which could pull it off they need the precognition to build them in sufficient numbers. In any case massive numbers of tightly packed units dont allow for comebacks or mistakes ... you HAVE TO HAVE the right unit composition to counter that and that means scouting. This cant be done that easily for every race as it can be done by Terrans. The game would be better off with limited unit selection, because it allows for longer and more interesting battles and prevents AoE from becoming too important. 3-4 valks destroy a flock of mutas especially with a bio ball. also, if you commit that much gas on mutas, you have no gas for lurker/hive tech | ||
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
On December 30 2012 08:56 Lightswarm wrote: irradiate shuts down mass mutas if i recall correctly (lol). also, terrans started building valks with their initial bio army to effectively negate the mutas. so thats one example down Not to mention, unless I'm going insane (which is possible) I remember watching a video explaining how after going over 12 units the mutas will auto unstack. (In this mod at least.) Rules of the game don't have to be super rigid, they can be bent for the sake of balance. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
Zerg armies are kind of clusterfucks late game such it is actually impossible to fully maximise their control due to pathing/inability to box all units at once, but with unlimited hotkey I think people can get much closer such that it would effect balance. edit- IMO it's more about how many unit's you can box at a time. The problem is if you can see a rally point with 40 units and just grab one half, hotkey, then grab the other half and hotkey--or separating out different unit types by control-clicking the unit in the selected box. 12 unit "boxing" makes the process much much much more repetitive as you get repeats in the control groups and is harder mouse-precision wise. There are various things that discourage actually hotkeying >12 things in one hotkey (such as spider mines, tank splash, storm if you also don't run away with the easier-to-control >12 unit group, etc) but boxing units is what zerg frantically does to control their armies. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19330 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
On December 30 2012 09:22 N.geNuity wrote: >11 muta can be countered against well (with corsairs/valks/irradiate) but having >12 units per group greatly helps zerg in all other cases. The best pro players cannot send an entire zerg army efficiently so you see lots of "streams" of units across the map, but if you could box, hotkey, and flank with ~75 units (~3 control groups of 25) easily zerg would be much stronger in bw. You can easily macro like 60 lings or a shitton of hydras at a time and it's super hard to actually send them to reinforce an attack (and they form conga line due to dumb ai pathing), but if it was as simple as 1 box and click zerg would be stronger mid/late game. Zerg armies are kind of clusterfucks late game such it is actually impossible to fully maximise their control due to pathing/inability to box all units at once, but with unlimited hotkey I think people can get much closer such that it would effect balance. the problem with zerg is that they are limited in their gas. sure you can get 24 mutas and just run around killing the terran. if you can kill the terran iwth 24 mutas, thats great. but if you cannot kill the terran, and the game stabilizes to the next phase (lurker/ling/defiler vs tank/bio/vessel) what is 24 muta gonna do. as stated in previous posts, irradiate murders a stacked muta flock. if you really wan to split 24 mutas just to find the one irradiated muta, be my guest, but ull most likely see ur gas investment go down the drain after 75-150 energy from vessels. that gas dumped means you cannot hold their inevitable bio push. as for boxing unlimited units per group...how do i even begin lol. the one thing you dont want to do in zvt (zvp less so since you dont need much micro) is to clump ur units together and attack into the enemy. if you ever tried spreading the zerg army in sc2 so that they will attack the enemy in one front efficiently, you know that you need to micro so much more to make sure they dont clump up. clumping units into 1 hotkey would win you games against low level players, but at the mid-high level (even just on iccup like c+ or above) people would laugh at you for doing such thing | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
you do want your army to clump together in 2-3 chunks midgame vs terran as it is extremely common you want to flank with ~12-15 lurkers and maybe 40-50 lings sandwich the marine medic and ~2-3 tank and 1 vessel army. And it depends on the map, but zvp you'll often have 50-80 units of a combination of hydra/ling midgame. zerg with 3-4 clumps is much much much stronger than the streamline type attacks that bw forces due to response times, pathing, and limited factors of boxing and hotkeying. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19330 Posts
On December 30 2012 09:37 Lightswarm wrote: the problem with zerg is that they are limited in their gas. sure you can get 24 mutas and just run around killing the terran. if you can kill the terran iwth 24 mutas, thats great. but if you cannot kill the terran, and the game stabilizes to the next phase (lurker/ling/defiler vs tank/bio/vessel) what is 24 muta gonna do. as stated in previous posts, irradiate murders a stacked muta flock. if you really wan to split 24 mutas just to find the one irradiated muta, be my guest, but ull most likely see ur gas investment go down the drain after 75-150 energy from vessels. that gas dumped means you cannot hold their inevitable bio push. as for boxing unlimited units per group...how do i even begin lol. the one thing you dont want to do in zvt (zvp less so since you dont need much micro) is to clump ur units together and attack into the enemy. if you ever tried spreading the zerg army in sc2 so that they will attack the enemy in one front efficiently, you know that you need to micro so much more to make sure they dont clump up. clumping units into 1 hotkey would win you games against low level players, but at the mid-high level (even just on iccup like c+ or above) people would laugh at you for doing such thing We rarely see that kind of muta investment in ZvT so it's hard to imagine how to transition. If the zerg somehow managaes to reach that number however why not invest in a heavy amount of scourge instead of tech switch? | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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RouaF
France4121 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
On December 30 2012 09:55 N.geNuity wrote: I agreed about mutas. Anyways, I'm not saying zergs would use 1 hotkey, but efficiently and rapidly making 3-4 "chunks" is greatly beneficial. Which if you have 80 units that changes to a 1a2a3a4a instead of a clusterfuck of 7-8 hotkeys or frantic boxing. And you see evidence of that in sc2, as big ling/baneling attacks is obviously possible due to ai pathing and being able to box 50 lings at a time. you do want your army to clump together in 2-3 chunks midgame vs terran as it is extremely common you want to flank with ~12-15 lurkers and maybe 40-50 lings sandwich the marine medic and ~2-3 tank and 1 vessel army. And it depends on the map, but zvp you'll often have 50-80 units of a combination of hydra/ling midgame. zerg with 3-4 clumps is much much much stronger than the streamline type attacks that bw forces due to response times, pathing, and limited factors of boxing and hotkeying. ye zvp, you can just a-move ur entire army into toss (i think this was even mentioned by a pro player in hyungjoon turning pro series). in my past experience, you generally want to flank the terran with the largest possible area since lings die so fast to rines (maybe clump up lurkers tho just so you have a back line) | ||
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Jonicc
Germany25 Posts
 love how the buildings look | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On December 30 2012 10:06 mau5mat wrote: Imagine the hype if Day9 done a daily on this mod, him playing vs Artosis or someone would generate so much interest and help Maverck's efforts go more noticed. I'm actually really surprised big name streamers arn't more interested in SC2BW, Starbow or OneGoal. | ||
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stormchaser
Canada1009 Posts
On December 30 2012 10:06 mau5mat wrote: Imagine the hype if Day9 done a daily on this mod, him playing vs Artosis or someone would generate so much interest and help Maverck's efforts go more noticed. I would totally watch that! | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-318-funday-monday-sc2bw/ | ||
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Deleted User 268575
146 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
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