Starcraft II Brood War mod has been 2½ years in the making. It was announced a mere three weeks after the release of Wings of Liberty. At the heart of the project we find Australian modder MavercK. Most -- if not almost all -- of the work (save for a few models and textures) has originated out of this tireless one man modder machine.
The mod enjoyed some hype throughout its first year and a half. But most of that enthusiasm unfortunately slowly died off during the long development process. As the mod now nears completion, it needs and deserves to be playtested.
SC2BW allows for air units to be stacked as long as they’re hotkeyed together with a building or unit far away. If, however, your control group should exceed 12 units/objects the air units will automatically disperse.
In my days of posting comments and threads on TL, I may have made one or a couple (too) assertive statements about the nature of moving shot and the SC2 engine. The only real difference between SC2 and Brood War can pretty much be summed up in the picture below:
In Brood War air units have to both face and travel towards their target, whereas in SC2 air units will rotate around their axis -- changing orientation -- in order to “lock on to the target” while continuing to glide in their previous direction.
This difference makes it hard to replicate moving shot exactly the way it functioned in Brood War. But rather than assume the difference would make for a poorer implementation, MavercK battled with the WoL editor until a solution was found. And if I’m to be completely honest: the SC2 engine moving shot provides more potential for awesome micro than Brood War did. With skill and experience, you can easily alternate between a BW style moving shot and an SC2 style moving shot – depending on what the situation requires.
I admit moving shot may not be the most important or influential factor in actual gameplay. A great RTS game should however allow room for prodigiously dexterous players to distinguish themselves. If a specific feature has the potential to leave esport crowds in awe, it should be included in the game. End of discussion.
Protip: The vulture patrol is a special case. The easiest way to achieve a fluid moving shot is to “double patrol click” towards your enemy, followed by a move in your previous direction. We wanted to implement something similar in difficulty level to Brood War patrol-micro.
One of the great accidental “features” of Brood War was that the game design actively rewarded and promoted players into continually expanding. Even being a mere one base ahead of your opponent in the early game with the same worker count would make you net approximately 200-300 minerals/min more than that opponent. As the game progressed, the player with more bases would build up a “mineral buffer” of sorts, allowing that player to continually trade armies wastefully. Over the course of a 20-25 minute game, it was not wholly unusual for the aggressively expanding player in the matchup to have lost closer to 10000 worth of minerals more in the form of units (without the game having been non-standard or uneven).
I’ve myself previously written a thread on the issue, and so have others (Barrin’s Breadth of Gameplay especially comes to mind). Barrin’s Fewer Resource Bases movement sought to slow down the sped up nature of economic growth in SC2 and promote players to expand earlier and more through moving from 8 mineral nodes per base to 6. In Brood War, however, a standard main base contained 9 mineral nodes (with the natural having 7). What compensated for the extra node and made Brood War income levels scale differently, was the phenomenon of “wandering workers”. A worker would not line up perfectly to start mining just as another finished (as they do in SC2). The primitive AI would also cause them to consistently wander whenever a node was occupied (as opposed to standing in line), resulting in a smoother income curve.
So what does this have to do with anything, you may have come to ask yourselves? Well, I would argue that a large and very misunderstood part of what made many Brood War matchups attractive to watch laid in the game’s economical asymmetry. I.e. one player throwing multiple cost inefficient armies at a seemingly overpowered composition – and the game allowing said player to do so without running out of fuel (minerals). In SC2, the expression of someone "being on 6 bases" is something of a misnomer. It's exceedingly rare for someone to actually be on more than three mining bases – however many expansions they may have.
In SC2BW mod, MavercK has successfully managed to recreate the wandering worker behaviour from Brood War, resulting in an income progression that rewards expanding and rewards spreading out on the map as opposed to staying in one’s own little three base corner of the map.
In Brood War, every matchup would slightly favor the race considered to be the “wasteful” one. The slight edge always went to the race that forced an attractive style of gameplay to be played. Had it been the other way around, I’m sure there would have been more community backlash. In contrast, most SC2 gameplay past 10 minutes will center around lots of posturing; with a slight edge being given to whoever happens to have the most cost efficient end game composition in the current state of balance.
Imbalances safely contained in the game design were part of what made BW fun to watch. Defilers would have been completely broken in ZvT had the Zerg only had enough breathing room to actually have drones mining minerals at expansions. TvP would have been broken in favor of 3-3 mech compositions had not expanding past three bases provided Protoss with a mineral buffer large enough for one or two extra remaxes. 112 damage storms, in conjunction with archons and reavers would have broken PvZ had the Zerg onslaught been restricted by an artificial cap of three mining bases.
Icons, bonjwas and revolutionaries were all defined by their ability to defy the statistics in these lopsided matchups and in effect rise above the “imbalances”.
SC2BW mod didn’t do anything revolutionary here. It conformed all production mechanics to be more alike each other – just like in BW. One major confounding factor in SC2’s balance work is likely to be the large difference in how races reinforce their armies. Terran is the only race who is stuck with an archaic production mechanic from Brood War. In lategame situations they often have to go through five production cycles, with the corresponding build time and travel time for each, before being able to launch another attempt at an attack.
The extreme production mechanics of SC2 also serve to restrict mapmakers from creating maps that are too large for the race that reinforces the slowest: Terran. For this reason you will never see maps with long and windy attack paths – as the added travel time will affect one race much harder than the other two.
Without the added factor of warp-in allowing for instant on-site reinforcements, there in my mind would have been a good chance of forcefield actually being a loved and respected SC2 ability.
Maverck's own videos of implementing the new pathing algorithm
One problem that SC2BW faced – in trying to recreate Brood War-like gameplay – was the effect that SC2 pathfinding would have on balance. So, amazingly enough, MavercK created his own BW-like pathfinding for the mod. Do not fret though, dragoons will find their way up a ramp in less than a half an hour.
This feature along with wandering workers – which promotes spreading out and continually expanding all over the place – will hopefully help in breaking up the deathball.
SC2BW mod has a built in iCCup style ranking system. As of right now, the stats are only stored locally on your computer. If the mod were to take off and become popular, a website could be created to track rankings with the help of a 3rd party program (to scan your ranking file).
The ranks are race specific, if you should like to dabble in off racing.
SC2BW might be nearing its completion. But there are still a lot of things that need to be polished. If you happen to be a talented modeler who is planning on working in startools – the SC2BW mod is in need of good custom models and animations.
The game will undoubtedly still contain bugs that have yet to be discovered (that won’t be discovered through other means than playtesting). If you find one, report it in the SC2BW thread.
Furthermore, there are a few persistent graphics bugs that only occur for certain players (devourer model not displaying, corsair not turning around to fire) which are hard for MavercK to figure out on his own without data and guidance from users.
If you think you can help with improving the ranking system and/or making a website, make yourself known in the SC2BW thread and offer your help. SC2BW mod is also in need of people who can regularly publish updated versions of the mod on EU and Korean servers until such time all servers are merged. Someone making the mod’s existence known to Koreans would not hurt either.
I personally think this sort of initiative, hard work and dedication from a modder is worthy of being featured on b.net. Putting 2½ years of hard work into a quality mod and not having anyone play it is a shame. So do lobby on behalf of it becoming a featured map!
How do I play?
Join channel #SC2BW on b.net in order to find opponents.
To find the maps: Search for SC2BW in Custom Games.
On December 17 2012 02:43 Zergrusher wrote: IF anything You guys, the Starbow guys, and the SC2:BW guys should team up and work together.
now THAT could be a amazing sc2 mod with all those good minds working together.
I disagree. Maverick, Kabel, and us have a very similar goal: to make StarCraft 2 function more appropriately like Brood War, because Brood War was more fun, both to watch and to play. The thing is, we all have very different ways of going about this goal. Maverick doesn't believe that StarCraft II is a worthy successor to Brood War in any way, and therefore wants to change the fundamentals, mechanics, and pathing of this game to match our favorite. His mod is very well polished and incredibly fun.
Kabel acknowledges that some of the mechanics and units of the sequel are appropriate to keep, but since unit design and the underlying economy are flawed, a lot of things need to be reverted back to Brood War, such as replacing the thor with the goliath, adding in the swarm host, and making all the protoss units gold. His mod is quite unique and incredibly enjoyable to watch
However, OneGoal still holds the prospect of hope that StarCraft 2 has serious potential, but simply made a few key mistakes that we feel we could change for the better (see: Tier 1.5 Hydralisks, 2 supply Siege Tanks, redesigned Void Ray). We have tried to make the smallest changes to the fundamentals, focusing primarily on improving unit design, in hopes that Blizzard would notice us and implement some of our changes to better improve both unit identity and counterplay in the game.
So, while it would be nice to see a mod with all of the best ideas from some of the best melee mod makers, I don't foresee it happening any time soon.
Kind of sums it up. Be sure to check out those other projects as well.
"This particular feature is amazing, Blizzard should definitely implement it!"
A change in path finding should not be expected of Blizzard (and rightfully so). They probably spent a lot of time optimizing the game. Moving shot itself would not change SC2 considerably either. And I honestly don't think the pathfinding is a major factor in causing deathballs to be so prevalent.
The two big factors SC2 would do good focusing on IMO is:
1) Economic system 2) Production mechanics
Changes to any one or both of those would require a complete rehaul of balance. I personally think macro mechanics should be kept in the game. Blizzard don't need to change the things about SC2 that makes it unique. But they may well think about somehow weakening the macro/production mechanics.
I definitely do think they should explore making mining at expansions scale better. Right now, what the balancing seems to be focused on is equalizing the strength of the races' different end game compositions. That makes for some pretty stale gameplay in the later stages of SC2 games.
If they ever decide to go for a change, they'd be really brave in doing so... It'd be much like starting over with balance (but perhaps with the added benefit of starting over in a more stable game).
Will all of this work be able to be easily transferred to HOTS (Does modding change in HOTS?)? It would be a shame for all of this hard work to only be largely recognized for 4 months
Awesome, been playing the mod just about any time I could and so far, it's been amazing. I can't say much in comparison to BW (since I never played it) but it seems great and is plenty of fun. I look forward to it being done!
I'm for sure going to try this out again, all those major problems, mining scalability, instant remax and constant 200/200 and unit clumping are pretty much the bane of starcraft2 right now; it's nice to see others acknowledge it
On December 27 2012 08:50 Epx wrote: wow sick.. blizzard designer should get a look on this thread/mod, they could learn something.
No they cant, this thread lacks rocks! Anyways, great job! Cant wait to try this out and hopefully bnet .2 doesnt bury this game somewhere in the deep dark depths of the arcade system.
This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
LaLush after viewing the first sequence it appears those guys have improved upon scout micro lmao. You'd never see that in Vanilla SC let alone BW lol.
Wow, props to you for making such a well-written, attractive, and informative post! I would love to play SC2BW with more people. I recently listed some bugs/suggestions in the main SC2BW thread.
Looking forward to more playtesting~
Should totally convince KESPA to play SC2BW instead of SC2. Once things get more finalised and fixed, of course.
While the main goal of this project is to recreate BW in the SC2 engine, you have to note that for those that just want to play with the BW units without the difficulty of BW mechanics, you can turn on MBS, smart-mining, and smart-casting. Of course, I am going to urge players to play with BW setting on. Regardless, though, even with BW settings on SC2BW, it runs a lot smoother than the old BW, which is nice.
haha that's just amazing! I love it. What if Blizzard just made this in the first place? It would of been so great! I can't imagine the competition and the people that would still play and not just quit and left for other games. Just amazing.
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
Or they could just make Sc2 a better game than BW and there, problem solved.
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
Or they could just make Sc2 a better game than BW and there, problem solved.
there's a lack of competence in certain dustins that makes this impossible
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
Why would they do that? The specifically mentioned this mod at blizzcon using words like impressive and great.
Honestly they should give this map its own ladder built into the game and advertise "includes an hd remake of sc1" as an impressive sounding feature on the box for almost no cost to them.
On December 27 2012 09:22 omgimonfire15 wrote: Hold on, was the scout always that good or was it just that no one used it because the cost was weird.
As I said a few posts ago. No, they accelerate and decelerate and they were expensive as shit. Corsairs were better in every way in terms of cost, splash damage output, controlling skies and d-web utility. You would use scouts to rub it in on your opponent. ;d
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
Or they could just make Sc2 a better game than BW and there, problem solved.
there's a lack of competence in certain dustins that makes this impossible
Either way, Blizzard would never just remove a fan made map without a REALLY good reason; there's too much bad publicity around it. And if they can sell more copies of SC2 because people wanna play SC2BW, why would they even want to?
On December 27 2012 09:18 TaShadan wrote: nice post. sc2bw isnt like sc:bw tough. still a nice mod. everyone should atleast try it.
Yup. I really like all these community mods to the game. It's pretty clear that eventually one of these mods will become super popular, and it will spawn a whole new style of starcraft. We will see though, maybe "the one mod" hasn't been built yet but requires that these mods are made first so it can build up on them and improve them even more.
Would it be possible for competition to switch over to SC2BW instead of HOTS? I think if TL and enough pros got behind that movement it might have a chance TT..
now this looks so awesome... i can't believe that i'm actually seeing an anti death ball movement video while thinking that this alone is just SO much more pleasant than my whole sc2 experience i had...
thanks for putting such great efforts into this... it would be a shame if no one played this! This really goes back to all the efforts we know from broodwars great old community and that i've missed ever since broodwar ceased to exist...
Jesus the general "BW good, SC2 bad, Blizzard bad"-cyclejerk is damn annoying in threads like this where it ALWAYS appears immediately.
It's not the OPs fault, I mean damn, that's some really great work. But somehow especially the BW fans cannot appreciate this stuff without complaining about Sc2. I want to read through threads like this but am just quickly irritated by all this unnecessary animosity.
On December 27 2012 09:29 SupLilSon wrote: Would it be possible for competition to switch over to SC2BW instead of HOTS? I think if TL and enough pros got behind that movement it might have a chance TT..
why should they? i would prefer to have the pros play scbw again.
Really nice, I'm going to try this as soon as possible and, depending how much I enjoy it, I could make it my new favorite mod to play during down times.
One thing I noticed missing from your post though is any news regarding the old BW high ground mechanic.
For those of you not aware. In BW units on the high ground had a 50% chance to avoid any shots fired on to them from units on the low ground, this mechanic, coupled with the more spread out pathing, is what prevented deathballs from appearing in BW. Obviously since we hate RNG and random things a 33% to 50% damage reduction for units on the high ground would be the optimal solution.
If the old high ground mechanics are in here then this mod is pretty much perfect.
On December 27 2012 08:56 OhThatDang wrote: hold on a minute the scout wasnt that good!
The scout was pretty good. Just that it was so expensive that no one ever used it. Had Blizz ever introduced another Brood War patch, I'm positive they would have lowered the scout cost to make it viable.
You're able to micro scouts just as well as wraith in BW (once you get the speed upgrade for them).
On December 27 2012 09:26 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: you cant turn off automine, smart casting or MBS. It's not BW until you disable the sc2 UI.
Actually, you can. Create a game, and the 3 settings are in the lobby. For example, you won't be able to select more than 12 units at a time.
yes its possible but is the selection limit (12) still bugged? in earlier builds it was bugging when the latency was bad.
It's far from perfect. It lets you select >12 units for a moment then removes some, but it is getting there. For all intents and purposes, MBS/smartcasting/smart-mining can be turned off.
On December 27 2012 09:29 SupLilSon wrote: Would it be possible for competition to switch over to SC2BW instead of HOTS? I think if TL and enough pros got behind that movement it might have a chance TT..
why should they? i would prefer to have the pros play scbw again.
On December 27 2012 09:29 SupLilSon wrote: Would it be possible for competition to switch over to SC2BW instead of HOTS? I think if TL and enough pros got behind that movement it might have a chance TT..
Things like that take time. For example dota2 right now is more popular and competitive than wc3:tft, however look at how much time it took to get there and how many changes to the original "aeon of strife" mod had to be done. It isn't impossible that in 2-3 years the game people will play on bnet wont be sc2 but some mod of it. The map creator of sc2 is very powerful and as you can see if you have the skill you can shape it to modify sc2 quite dramatically.
But everything has to start somewhere, so give these mods a try (sc2bw, starbow,etc...) . Maybe in a year someone will modify them even more and we'll get the "dota" of sc2. In any case, this is a good start.
On December 27 2012 09:32 Destructicon wrote: Really nice, I'm going to try this as soon as possible and, depending how much I enjoy it, I could make it my new favorite mod to play during down times.
One thing I noticed missing from your post though is any news regarding the old BW high ground mechanic.
For those of you not aware. In BW units on the high ground had a 50% chance to avoid any shots fired on to them from units on the low ground, this mechanic, coupled with the more spread out pathing, is what prevented deathballs from appearing in BW. Obviously since we hate RNG and random things a 33% to 50% damage reduction for units on the high ground would be the optimal solution.
If the old high ground mechanics are in here then this mod is pretty much perfect.
Yea, I forgot to mention it. But the high ground defender's advantage mechanic is indeed included in the mod.
On December 27 2012 09:29 SupLilSon wrote: Would it be possible for competition to switch over to SC2BW instead of HOTS? I think if TL and enough pros got behind that movement it might have a chance TT..
DotA and WC3 co-existed fine. If the mod's good people will play it. HotS and LotV will be a breath of fresh air and let's see what happens with those next two installments at the same time.
I think it would be amusing to track the interface settings people choose. I think personally I wouldn't mind the 12 unit limit, since I'm used to this from Warcraft 3, but I would mind SBS, since that frustrated me when switching from WC3 to SC:BW in the past.
Also, this mod kinda needs to be published on the Korean server and publicized a bit.
Seems nice, gj. Really found your point about wandering workers interesting. Never really thought about it that way, that it is one reason why it's advantageous to take more bases in BW.
Its great someone put this much time into making an authentic BW mod. It seems like the things MavercK has figured out with the map editor could be used in other SC2 mods as well. Thanks so much for you time and effort, RTS is my favorite genre of game and its nice people are pushing the boundaries of the SC2 map editor.
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
I'm going to try this out and see what I think after playing enough games. And, for anyone wondering about a potential competitive scene for this - if there's demand, a supply will rise. I would personally be in favor of online and offline tournaments and would push for them if the mod is redeemable. As long as its polished, it can thrive.
If you all really like the mod and want to see it played competitively, do your best to support - try to get tournaments going, push competitive content, spread the word, and play as much as possible. That's how it gets done.
Really amazing work guys, gonna go get some matches going.
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
Or they could just make Sc2 a better game than BW and there, problem solved.
there's a lack of competence in certain dustins that makes this impossible
in all honesty, a great deal of design flaws that starcraft2 has were pointed out by lalush's OP and are already fixed in this mod, dustin would not even need to invent anything new other than to analyze whether such mechanics (anti clumping, primitive worker ai) would make the game better. I honestly feel that starcraft2 would become much more aesthetic game with some of these changes.
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
you really think Kespa will trust a group of modders to balance and keep this map updated for them to run a tournament on?
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
you really think Kespa will trust a group of modders to balance and keep this map updated for them to run a tournament on?
KeSPA would hire others to continue upkeeping the mod...
They would be controlling development if that were occur. I'm pretty sure Mavereck would have an orgasm right then and there if he found out something like that was in the works.
On December 27 2012 10:35 ( bush wrote: how can i play 2v2 on fighting spirit? It seems impossible
theres one map on the arcade. forced to 1v1. if you wish to play additional game modes you will have to change from arcade to starcraft and view custom maps there, there should be 3 maps, with all supporting game modes (2v2/FFA/etc). this is because theres an issue with melee maps on arcade. the game modes dont work correctly.
On December 27 2012 09:10 Ragnarork wrote: This is pure awesomeness, especially the part about mining efficiency on multiple bases, and the remax rework which should have always been like that imo !
I'd love to say "either Blizzard come or either we don't care about them", but they might actually get annoying and threatening of lawsuit if they disagree...
Or they could just ban the game from the arcade and when asked about it they might just say "Well, we made starcraft 2, if you want to play BW go buy BW" .
Or they could just make Sc2 a better game than BW and there, problem solved.
there's a lack of competence in certain dustins that makes this impossible
Not really. The antiquated AI/UI is what made a lot of BW work.
I don't think a modern BW would be popular enough to be a standalone game (without AI/UI changes that would break the shit out of BW), so this map is a great compromise.
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
you really think Kespa will trust a group of modders to balance and keep this map updated for them to run a tournament on?
KeSPA would hire others to continue upkeeping the mod...
They would be controlling development if that were occur. I'm pretty sure Mavereck would have an orgasm right then and there if he found out something like that was in the works.
No, they wouldn't. KeSPA has no control over SC2, its all directed by Blizzard. They can't just DO what they want anymore...
It's sad tho, because Blizzard didn't make BW popular, it was KeSPA and they Map makers with Pro-Gamers on top of the cake...
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
you really think Kespa will trust a group of modders to balance and keep this map updated for them to run a tournament on?
KeSPA would hire others to continue upkeeping the mod...
They would be controlling development if that were occur. I'm pretty sure Mavereck would have an orgasm right then and there if he found out something like that was in the works.
No, they wouldn't. KeSPA has no control over SC2, its all directed by Blizzard. They can't just DO what they want anymore...
It's sad tho, because Blizzard didn't make BW popular, it was KeSPA and they Map makers with Pro-Gamers on top of the cake...
Blizzard owns the mod.
But that does not mean that KeSPA cannot hire people to upkeep the mod...and to expand it as they desire.
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
you really think Kespa will trust a group of modders to balance and keep this map updated for them to run a tournament on?
KeSPA would hire others to continue upkeeping the mod...
They would be controlling development if that were occur. I'm pretty sure Mavereck would have an orgasm right then and there if he found out something like that was in the works.
No, they wouldn't. KeSPA has no control over SC2, its all directed by Blizzard. They can't just DO what they want anymore...
It's sad tho, because Blizzard didn't make BW popular, it was KeSPA and they Map makers with Pro-Gamers on top of the cake...
KeSPA didn't make BW popular. It was huge in Korea long before KeSPA even existed.
SC2BW allows for air units to be stacked as long as they’re hotkeyed together with a building or unit far away. If, however, your control group should exceed 12 units/objects the air units will automatically disperse.
This seems so arbitrary. I know it's how Brood War did it, but why not just have "you can only select 12 Mutas, and they can stack". Why do I need to jump through arcane hoops that make no logical sense, just because BW did it?
I never played brood war (except for campaign) and I am (sadly) loosing my interest in playing SC 2 or even watching it (except for the T v T matchup). But this... this looks really awesome and I am gonna give it a shot (:
SC2BW allows for air units to be stacked as long as they’re hotkeyed together with a building or unit far away. If, however, your control group should exceed 12 units/objects the air units will automatically disperse.
This seems so arbitrary. I know it's how Brood War did it, but why not just have "you can only select 12 Mutas, and they can stack". Why do I need to jump through arcane hoops that make no logical sense, just because BW did it?
On December 27 2012 09:46 Zenbrez wrote: This is really cool, I just wish that this sort of thing could be used for pro play, but that's not going to happen
Don't be so quick to judge. Look at WC3 how a mod named DOTA became huge in special niche tournaments and quickly grew into a large tournament scene as it's popularity increased. If this becomes a popular mod on Bnet it would be foolish not to expect some tournaments to follow. Now whether or not this becomes popular remains to be seen. I would think if someone like NonY started streaming while playing this mod the popularity would receive a huge push.
I mostly meant like if Kespa would have switched to this instead of sc2, bwHD as people sometimes say they wished existed
you really think Kespa will trust a group of modders to balance and keep this map updated for them to run a tournament on?
Keep it balances? Why would they change anything.. the whole point of this custom is to be identical to bw, which is considered balanced.
Cool stuff. The mining thing is really interesting. Never knew about it before, though I've always had the feeling that expanding in SC2 wasn't as rewarding as it was in BW.
SC2BW allows for air units to be stacked as long as they’re hotkeyed together with a building or unit far away. If, however, your control group should exceed 12 units/objects the air units will automatically disperse.
This seems so arbitrary. I know it's how Brood War did it, but why not just have "you can only select 12 Mutas, and they can stack". Why do I need to jump through arcane hoops that make no logical sense, just because BW did it?
because if you could stack 50 mutalisks....
Then don't let me select 50 mutalisks.
"You can select 50 mutalisks, but you can only stack 11 of them, and only if they're in a control group with an overlord, which is something you would never naturally do".
Muta micro in BW made it a great game, but the actual method of getting mutas to stack was pants-on-head retarded, and there's no reason to copy that part.
And stacking 50 mutas means I can win the game with a single irradiate :|
I would love to see these BW mechanics with the SC2 units, though. It'd make it a lot easier to separate bad unit design from gameplay limitations.
The SC2BW vs SC2 comparisons are very well made. They describe perfectly the actual problem with Starcraft2, and why it is a "sit on 3 bases and get maxed out" game.
Lalush.. thank you. Great job with this post, and thank you Maverck, for working on this beautiful mod. I will look at this one again after this much time without trying it out.
When I have some spare time, I'm going to try to swap a unit with the broodwar sprite itself, and see if its cool enough / nostalgic enough. Would be cool to have an option to either show the game in 2D sprites or 3D models.
Ribbon has a good point.. But here lies the fault with community modding. Everyones going to have different (but valid) opinions. Without having a proper staff (like Mav) to make executive decisions nothing can really be settled on.
I'm all for this and will probably play around with it a lot, but I don't get why people just don't go play Brood War. I mean, it's really good, people can just play that game.
And for the people telling other people to just play broodwar:
1. Broodwar wont work on a Mac. 2. Broodwar will crash and make your computer NOT RESPOND after a random interval on Windows 7 and Windows 8 3. Broodwar has a color error on w7 and w8. Theres a workaround though. 4. Broodwar public serverds filled with hackers 5. You have to go into iccup to play a decent match (or fish)
That said, if Blizzard decided to make an HD version of SCBW with bnet2, and proper OS support, i would jump in, no questions asked.
On December 27 2012 08:18 Glon wrote: Will all of this work be able to be easily transferred to HOTS (Does modding change in HOTS?)? It would be a shame for all of this hard work to only be largely recognized for 4 months
If it works like WC3 did, then it should, TFT could play RoC-made customs.
is it really necessary to limit the stacking to only 11 units? I feel like BW would still be balanced even w/ unlimited unit stacking, otherwise we would've seen a lot more double-stacking muta micro in pro-games
Personally, I am not really interestedd in BW 2.0 but this is a great work by community and its creators put in so much effort. I wish it the best luck.
Can you imagine how much more exciting the games would be to watch? SCBW HD in our era of twitch, streams, and constant foreign tournaments.
Unfortunately, so many wonderful nuances from Brood War can't be replicated due to the sc2 engine. Auto-surround and unit pathing is a huge testament to that current fact of life.
Maverick was at one time experimenting with the actual unit pathing of units to become 8 way directional to replicate BW pathing. I wonder if he had any success with that or it just wasn't worth it.
On December 27 2012 12:19 ArvickHero wrote: is it really necessary to limit the stacking to only 11 units? I feel like BW would still be balanced even w/ unlimited unit stacking, otherwise we would've seen a lot more double-stacking muta micro in pro-games
SC2 Mutas are kinda broken in the form they are with unlimited stacking. Jaedong Iris is enough evidence of the brute power stacked mutas can have if you have the apm to handle two groups.
The 11 unit limit makes that stack large enough to be very powerful while weak enough that it can be deflected or can't sit and fight (sc2 mutas v stalkers). Also the muta is a strong harass unit rather than a super mobile ball of doom.
Just imagine if someone could make something similar to ICCup for BW 2.0 just like this and matchmaking system for 1v1 ladder or just like on the iccup server you ask for games and just go. That would be amazing.
On December 27 2012 12:19 ArvickHero wrote: is it really necessary to limit the stacking to only 11 units? I feel like BW would still be balanced even w/ unlimited unit stacking, otherwise we would've seen a lot more double-stacking muta micro in pro-games
SC2 Mutas are kinda broken in the form they are with unlimited stacking. Jaedong Iris is enough evidence of the brute power stacked mutas can have if you have the apm to handle two groups.
The 11 unit limit makes that stack large enough to be very powerful while weak enough that it can be deflected or can't sit and fight (sc2 mutas v stalkers). Also the muta is a strong harass unit rather than a super mobile ball of doom.
Interesting.
Eh not really sc2 mutas being stacked bw style would be obliterated by a couple thor shots. zvp storm would do a ton of damage to all of them instead of not all.
Dunno I think people forget how good aoe damage is vs stacked mutas if they were like bw stacking.
On December 27 2012 12:12 iPAndi wrote: And for the people telling other people to just play broodwar:
1. Broodwar wont work on a Mac. 2. Broodwar will crash and make your computer NOT RESPOND after a random interval on Windows 7 and Windows 8 3. Broodwar has a color error on w7 and w8. Theres a workaround though. 4. Broodwar public serverds filled with hackers 5. You have to go into iccup to play a decent match (or fish)
That said, if Blizzard decided to make an HD version of SCBW with bnet2, and proper OS support, i would jump in, no questions asked.
1. Broodwar does work on Mac. ICCUP launcher does not. 2. Have been playing on Windows 7 since Windows 7 came out with no problems. Did not need a patch. 3. See above 4. True, but anti hack tools are widely available and private ladders are better for 1v1 anyway 5. I play on USEast every day. I also play on Fish every day.
Besides the fact that the costum map is amazing and I thorougly enjoy playing it, this post is beyond well made and usefull. It elocuently and consizely explains many aspects of bw that made it an amazing game that sc2 lacks. Heres to hope that blizzard developers read this message and work on implementing this concepts in map making, battle.net and perhaps i patches for HOTS or even legacy of the void. Doing my part by politelly tweeting this link to the oficial starcraft acount and to the developers with known tweeter accounts.
The amount of data that went into this is amazing, thanks for the easy to understand differences. I've always wondered why SC2 seemed to just settle on 3 bases so naturally as opposed to the much larger BW expansion style.
Sc2 and Diablo 3 seem to suffer from the same issue.
All blizzard had to do was improve on the previous slightly(few new units/graphics upgrades etc.) And things would have been great. But it seems they wanted to go with some totally new directions that aren't working simply to try and prove they weren't just reinventing the wheel when the wheel is working fine.
I almost think if they just called the games space wars and hellfighter they would be better because at least we wouldn't constantly compare to the predecessors.
On December 27 2012 12:12 iPAndi wrote: And for the people telling other people to just play broodwar:
1. Broodwar wont work on a Mac. 2. Broodwar will crash and make your computer NOT RESPOND after a random interval on Windows 7 and Windows 8 3. Broodwar has a color error on w7 and w8. Theres a workaround though. 4. Broodwar public serverds filled with hackers 5. You have to go into iccup to play a decent match (or fish)
That said, if Blizzard decided to make an HD version of SCBW with bnet2, and proper OS support, i would jump in, no questions asked.
1. Broodwar does work on Mac. ICCUP launcher does not.
Edit 2: skimmed through the rest of the thread.. guess its 'technically' possible, but kinda seems like a pain. bootcamp is much easier, but xp is no longer supported with lion either... lolllll thanks apple
Love this mod, amazing work MavercK! I was wondering if you incorporated BW's different mining rates? As far as I know, that was a pretty large and necessary part to keep the game balanced.
On December 27 2012 13:14 FLuE wrote: Sc2 and Diablo 3 seem to suffer from the same issue.
All blizzard had to do was improve on the previous slightly(few new units/graphics upgrades etc.) And things would have been great. But it seems they wanted to go with some totally new directions that aren't working simply to try and prove they weren't just reinventing the wheel when the wheel is working fine.
I almost think if they just called the games space wars and hellfighter they would be better because at least we wouldn't constantly compare to the predecessors.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
On December 27 2012 12:12 iPAndi wrote: And for the people telling other people to just play broodwar:
1. Broodwar wont work on a Mac. 2. Broodwar will crash and make your computer NOT RESPOND after a random interval on Windows 7 and Windows 8 3. Broodwar has a color error on w7 and w8. Theres a workaround though. 4. Broodwar public serverds filled with hackers 5. You have to go into iccup to play a decent match (or fish)
That said, if Blizzard decided to make an HD version of SCBW with bnet2, and proper OS support, i would jump in, no questions asked.
1. Broodwar does work on Mac. ICCUP launcher does not.
Edit 2: skimmed through the rest of the thread.. guess its 'technically' possible, but kinda seems like a pain. bootcamp is much easier, but xp is no longer supported with lion either... lolllll thanks apple
Forgot about that. I've got BW installed on an old macbook but that must be an old Apple OS.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
On December 27 2012 12:12 iPAndi wrote: And for the people telling other people to just play broodwar:
1. Broodwar wont work on a Mac. 2. Broodwar will crash and make your computer NOT RESPOND after a random interval on Windows 7 and Windows 8 3. Broodwar has a color error on w7 and w8. Theres a workaround though. 4. Broodwar public serverds filled with hackers 5. You have to go into iccup to play a decent match (or fish)
That said, if Blizzard decided to make an HD version of SCBW with bnet2, and proper OS support, i would jump in, no questions asked.
1. Broodwar does work on Mac. ICCUP launcher does not.
Edit 2: skimmed through the rest of the thread.. guess its 'technically' possible, but kinda seems like a pain. bootcamp is much easier, but xp is no longer supported with lion either... lolllll thanks apple
Forgot about that. I've got BW installed on an old macbook but that must be an old Apple OS.
As this link clearly suggests, BW does not install on an OS higher than 10.6.8. Technically speaking, anyone with an updated system = no bw. Unless you resort to virtualization or bootcamp, which is a hassle just to get a game working. That said, that's my current setup.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
Dota --> Dota2
Basically the same game, people are still getting hyped for it.
I honestly think they should have just remade SC:BW with better graphics.
This thread makes me actually want to get on SC2 and play it again, in the BW mod of course.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
call of duty? dota? madden?
the only reason people bought sc2 in the first place was because of the name (same reason i bought diablo 3 having never played d1 or d2. boy did i regret that...)
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
proof?
"This game you all loved, and have been waiting for the sequal for a decade? Well we're about done making it, AND IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!!!! :D:D:D:D"
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
proof?
"This game you all loved, and have been waiting for the sequal for a decade? Well we're about done making it, AND IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!!!! :D:D:D:D"
Dat hype.
"the game you all loved. now featuring rocks, colossus, infestors, roaches, 200/200 deathballs and many more!"
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
call of duty? dota? madden?
the only reason people bought sc2 in the first place was because of the name (same reason i bought diablo 3 having never played d1 or d2. boy did i regret that...)
It's not just the name man. Blizzard loyalists buy the company's latest game all the time.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
call of duty? dota? madden?
the only reason people bought sc2 in the first place was because of the name (same reason i bought diablo 3 having never played d1 or d2. boy did i regret that...)
Counter-Strike from like 1.3 to 1.6. Some different game mechanics but still held the same core pretty much. Then look what happened when Valve(?) started to release new different versions like CS:CZ and CSS. Fucking failed hard because they wanted to make their own new Counter-Strike so they broke away from the core of CS, the things that made CS what it is. Just like how the sc2 team did when they made sc2.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
proof?
"This game you all loved, and have been waiting for the sequal for a decade? Well we're about done making it, AND IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!!!! :D:D:D:D"
Dat hype.
I don't get this? Care to explain dota 2 then? If they would have gone the route of Valve and dota 2 we would have gotten the game we all loved, updated graphics to fit todays standard (1080p), some improvements on some of the mechanics and improved lobby features and social networking stuff (which is something blizzard managed to do worse in sc2 than sc1 and wc3). While doing this they would have gotten the whole existing playerbase plus bring in people who played sc1 in their child hood and I'm pretty sure the same people that got into sc2 by the release hype would have gotten into Starcraft from Brood War 2 just as easy. I would be pretty hyped for a Brood War 2.
Cool stuff but I don't like how you can do either BW or SC2 style MBS. Seems like something that would divide the community of those who play it (i.e. -em in DotA).
So many elegant improvements to this mod since some of the earlier builds. It may not influence blizzard's actions directly, but at least it gives people another viable custom-game.
As an aside: the comparison between CS isn't too accurate imo, since the competitive community mostly rejected CS:S, causing a huge division; this was much less of the case in SC2. At least Blizzard is supporting their game much more than valve.
Few things I noticed while playing -Sometimes siege tanks don't siege when they're somewhat clumped -Academy and armory have no build grid -Patrol micro is weird haha, I think it has something to do with the vultures turn rate, but i'm not sure
But this is fantastic! I've been going back to Liquipedia 1 and looking up old BW builds and been playing against the many players this mod now has!
EDIT: I think some of the timings of build times are off? But i'm not sure, I might be doing builds wrong.
Enjoyed this mod here and there for a long time now. Hope to see more people playing it after this post, it was typically a bit hard to find games. MavercK is a hero and the mod is a ton of fun.
I love this mod but when I tried playing it a few months back there were barely any people playing. Even if it takes off we will never see it eclipse the official game at the pro level which is unfortunate because it is far superior.
On December 27 2012 16:09 Scila wrote: I love this mod but when I tried playing it a few months back there were barely any people playing. Even if it takes off we will never see it eclipse the official game at the pro level which is unfortunate because it is far superior.
Never say never. Dota did it. This mod can do this too.
On December 27 2012 16:09 Scila wrote: I love this mod but when I tried playing it a few months back there were barely any people playing. Even if it takes off we will never see it eclipse the official game at the pro level which is unfortunate because it is far superior.
Never say never. Dota did it. This mod can do this too.
even then, it's unlikely. BW has already been done, at the time, Dota was the only moba game around, which happened to have a big following. The big following that bw had has mostly transfered over. I don't see this mod developing a large competitive playerbase since afterall, it is bw, which is insanely difficult.
I'm amazed at people actually supporting sc1 mechanics like no MBS. Do you even know what carpel tunnel syndrome is? Honestly. yes it's cool how it requires INTENSE APM!@#!@ but realistically 90% of you are playing this game as a hobby and will never go pro. Is it really worth risking your own health over a game? I personally think blizzard did everyone a HUGE favor by removing such mechanics. Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
I always wondered what DBrowder would think if a user made mod like this actually became big time and was the default Starcraft 2 game mode used in all tournaments.
I hope this mod succeeds, because I'm sure as hell fed up with SC2 right now and BW seems to keep me somewhat interested in this franchise.
I am definitely testing out this mod when I get back home.
To address the topic of "People would or would not buy a remake of a game" and the reference to DoTA, Madden, etc. I agree if they upgraded the graphics but kept the same game that it would have sold. The only thing they would need to do is continue the campaign and upgrade they way custom games were MADE.
*edit* And I know this is wishing big, but... if this game takes off and somehow becomes the standard. That would be a huge slap to the face of D. Browder and I'd love to see it. I love Blizzard, but every time I see them make changes it just breaks my heart.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: I'm amazed at people actually supporting sc1 mechanics like no MBS. Do you even know what carpel tunnel syndrome is? Honestly. yes it's cool how it requires INTENSE APM!@#!@ but realistically 90% of you are playing this game as a hobby and will never go pro. Is it really worth risking your own health over a game? I personally think blizzard did everyone a HUGE favor by removing such mechanics. Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Two completely different (not 100% certain on this, there might be a few cinema guys that made a return) teams developed each game. For you to think Blizzard now is the same Blizzard from the late 90's or early 2000's signifies, to me at least, that you're the one that needs a reminder.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
fuckkkk i hate you for making this.... Now I'm gonna have to re-install SC2.
Seriously, you are such a boss, and as much as I loath SC2 at the moment, if you put in this much work in to making this, the LEAST I can do is play it and test it out.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are.
Please.. don't tell me you're one of those people..
Anyways, people who praise the sc1 team for making such an amazing game etc etc, the fact that bw became such a success had a LOT of luck involved, lots of things involved unintentional game flaws. If bw turned out exactly the way it was intended, it would not be what it is now. At least remember that they weren't genius masterminds that knew exactly what would create the "perfect" game.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are.
Please.. don't tell me you're one of those people..
Anyways, people who praise the sc1 team for making such an amazing game etc etc, the fact that bw became such a success had a LOT of luck involved, lots of things involved unintentional game flaws. If bw turned out exactly the way it was intended, it would not be what it is now. At least remember that they weren't genius masterminds that knew exactly what would create the "perfect" game.
LIAR. Every bug was hand crafted so that a small circle of elitists could feel superior for following a game since 1998 or whatever.
On December 27 2012 16:58 Mothra wrote: Would be great if TL would set up show matches of this mod. and maybe have some professionals backing it and publicizing it.
I also would like to see show matches or small tournament on this mod streamed on TL.
On December 27 2012 16:58 Mothra wrote: Would be great if TL would set up show matches of this mod. and maybe have some professionals backing it and publicizing it.
I also would like to see show matches or small tournament on this mod streamed on TL.
Definitely
I think they played this on TLattack when it wasn't complete yet, back when SC2 was newer.
Oh wow, SC2BW has reached new heights in its goal, well done! To be honest, it does provoke more good old BW playing in me than playing it inside SC2. (:
On December 27 2012 16:58 Mothra wrote: Would be great if TL would set up show matches of this mod. and maybe have some professionals backing it and publicizing it.
I also would like to see show matches or small tournament on this mod streamed on TL.
Definitely
I think they played this on TLattack when it wasn't complete yet, back when SC2 was newer.
I remember watching that, a long ass tvz with science vessels.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are.
Please.. don't tell me you're one of those people..
Anyways, people who praise the sc1 team for making such an amazing game etc etc, the fact that bw became such a success had a LOT of luck involved, lots of things involved unintentional game flaws. If bw turned out exactly the way it was intended, it would not be what it is now. At least remember that they weren't genius masterminds that knew exactly what would create the "perfect" game.
Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws? This mod shows that SC2 could have been much much better game than it is now. And HOTS won't change much because in HOTS unlike of this mod basic design mechanics which leads to many actual problems of SC2 will not be changed.
Few more suggestions for ladder play If a player leaves in the first few secs of the game it should be a draw and I would really like it if you made the settings default to BW haha
EDIT: I think maybe I should post this stuff in the SC2BW map thread.... haha
On December 27 2012 16:58 Fearest wrote: please make a 3v3 BGH map. thanks!
BGH and all possible game modes are available in the melee map section of battle.net not in arcade. arcade only has 1v1 fighting spirit. if you want to play 2v2/3v3/FFA/etc you need to go into the starcraft melee map section (top left, starcraft > custom games)
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
I don’t see many RTS released nowdays so you point is disputable. And why AI has to be super smart? It can be relatively stupid if that leads to exciting gameplay.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are.
Please.. don't tell me you're one of those people..
Anyways, people who praise the sc1 team for making such an amazing game etc etc, the fact that bw became such a success had a LOT of luck involved, lots of things involved unintentional game flaws. If bw turned out exactly the way it was intended, it would not be what it is now. At least remember that they weren't genius masterminds that knew exactly what would create the "perfect" game.
Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws? This mod shows that SC2 could have been much much better game than it is now. And HOTS won't change much because in HOTS unlike of this mod basic design mechanics which leads to many actual problems of SC2 will not be changed.
Why do we want lucky flaws? Why not lucky virtues?
Take the marine for example. I doubt it was in Blizzard's intention for the standard marine stim/baneling or infestor interaction to be intense splitting micro. They were probably just thinking "there needs to be something that can counter mass bio" and not trying to design probably the best micro interaction in the game right now.
On December 27 2012 17:36 jeffvip wrote: Can TL put this on Spotlight. this is so awesome. Lets meet at the game room for some BW action
They already spotlighted it once before.
You should have promoted this on Bnet forum and reddit. With the way it is right now, I doubt it lasts for 3 months, like the old SC2BW and less mineral maps.
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
I don’t see many RTS released nowdays so you point is disputable. And why AI has to be super smart? It can be relatively stupid if that leads to exciting gameplay.
Because stupid AI breaks the game long before anyone starts caring about "exciting gameplay".
Ever see a reviewer say "The AI was beyond idiotic, the UI random and unresponsive, and everything required constant babysitting...but don't worry, in 3 years this game will be competitive and fun to watch"?
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
I don’t see many RTS released nowdays so you point is disputable. And why AI has to be super smart? It can be relatively stupid if that leads to exciting gameplay.
Because stupid AI breaks the game long before anyone starts caring about "exciting gameplay".
Ever see a reviewer say "The AI was beyond idiotic, the UI random and unresponsive, and everything required constant babysitting...but don't worry, in 3 years this game will be competitive and fun to watch"?
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
I don’t see many RTS released nowdays so you point is disputable. And why AI has to be super smart? It can be relatively stupid if that leads to exciting gameplay.
Because stupid AI breaks the game long before anyone starts caring about "exciting gameplay".
Ever see a reviewer say "The AI was beyond idiotic, the UI random and unresponsive, and everything required constant babysitting...but don't worry, in 3 years this game will be competitive and fun to watch"?
BW?????
BW was a great game despite it's shortcomings, not because of it.
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
I don’t see many RTS released nowdays so you point is disputable. And why AI has to be super smart? It can be relatively stupid if that leads to exciting gameplay.
Because stupid AI breaks the game long before anyone starts caring about "exciting gameplay".
Ever see a reviewer say "The AI was beyond idiotic, the UI random and unresponsive, and everything required constant babysitting...but don't worry, in 3 years this game will be competitive and fun to watch"?
BW?????
Because clearly 1998 is today.
I repeat: If a game with UI, AI and control as broken as BW was released today, it would flop.
On December 27 2012 16:58 Fearest wrote: please make a 3v3 BGH map. thanks!
BGH and all possible game modes are available in the melee map section of battle.net not in arcade. arcade only has 1v1 fighting spirit. if you want to play 2v2/3v3/FFA/etc you need to go into the starcraft melee map section (top left, starcraft > custom games)
Hate to be cynical, but this is pointless. We've tried since beta to make Blizzard listen to us, to fix the fundamental problems in SC2, but nothing has happened. These modmakers
... hope that Blizzard would notice us and implement some of our changes ...
and I am totally for that. I think SC2 is a stale, broken bore of a game compared to BW, I haven't played it for what must be over a year now. But unless they change the game fundamentally, as described in the OP, there is no point, and they wont. It's too late now. The first expansion is coming and unless these changes are all in it (they aren't) the game will remain what it is: a decent game, a distraction that lasts for a couple months, much like the latest shooter or platformer. I think most of us will agree we would never have played SC2 for half as long as we did if it weren't for the fact that it has Starcraft in the name.
The only solution is the one constantly parroted by Blizzard: if you want to play Broodwar, play Broodwar. We all want Broodwar to somehow make it into the next generation of gaming but unfortunately that's just not gonna happen.
On December 27 2012 18:09 Osmoses wrote: Hate to be cynical, but this is pointless. We've tried since beta to make Blizzard listen to us, to fix the fundamental problems in SC2, but nothing has happened. These modmakers
... hope that Blizzard would notice us and implement some of our changes ...
and I am totally for that. I think SC2 is a stale, broken bore of a game compared to BW, I haven't played it for what must be over a year now. But unless they change the game fundamentally, as described in the OP, there is no point, and they wont. It's too late now. The first expansion is coming and unless these changes are all in it (they aren't) the game will remain what it is: a decent game, a distraction that lasts for a couple months, much like the latest shooter or platformer. I think most of us will agree we would never have played SC2 for half as long as we did if it weren't for the fact that it has Starcraft in the name.
The only solution is the one constantly parroted by Blizzard: if you want to play Broodwar, play Broodwar. We all want Broodwar to somehow make it into the next generation of gaming but unfortunately that's just not gonna happen.
At least now we can play SC2BW. Thank you MavercK once again.
I was playing zerg earlier today with my friend and every time I was supply blocked the standard "Spawn more ovaries" sound came up. However, the larva then had a timer bar on it (sort of like a stuck timer) and I could no longer use those larva. Everytime i build from those larva it would say something like "queue is max" or something along those line (not exactly what it said i dont remember but it was something like that). Basically the larva that were going to be used to build anything that is not an overlord when supply blocked will just freeze and will need to be manually canceled before more larva comes out.
On December 27 2012 18:23 phodacbiet wrote: Hey, i have a bug to report.
I was playing zerg earlier today with my friend and every time I was supply blocked the standard "Spawn more ovaries" sound came up. However, the larva then had a timer bar on it (sort of like a stuck timer) and I could no longer use those larva. Everytime i build from those larva it would say something like "queue is max" or something along those line (not exactly what it said i dont remember but it was something like that). Basically the larva that were going to be used to build anything that is not an overlord when supply blocked will just freeze and will need to be manually canceled before more larva comes out.
i dont know about the bug but i just had to laugh at that
On December 27 2012 17:13 MikeMM wrote: Why then DB decided to not recreate those lucky flaws?
Because, with the exception of the Brood War diehards, things like arbitrary control limitations, stupid AI and bad pathing are considered blatant failings on the part of developers.
If any other RTS was released today with units that would take the longest path for a straight line, it would be outright ridiculed by reviewers and consumers alike.
They are blatant flaws, but they all lead to controlling your units being harder and therefor making the game harder.
Please TL make BW tournament on this map !!! I'd enjoy to see BW without lose my eyes on my 24". Imagine a match with BW pro like Jaedong on this map :D
This is amazing, great work. I hope there is an option to still have 200pop in one group or at least more than 12 unit, it would be nice for noobs like me.
I am happy to see how far this mod has come. It leaves me wondering tho..
What if we implement some of the *finetuned* features of the SC2BW mod in SC2 and create a type of pro-mod. Something that would enhance SC2 games but not revert back completely to BW style. HotS is shaping up pretty well and I'd say it would be a good thing to create a pro-mod and test out some features from this mod one by one, testing what works and doesn't, so Blizzard can see the results from external testing.
Right now I am quite satisfied with how HotS seems to pan out, but if we start this Pro-mod stuff early, we can test stuff out without having to convince Blizzard to test it internally, and have something to fall back on if the game turns as stale as the PvZ matchup right now in WoL. (just an example)
On December 27 2012 16:09 Scila wrote: I love this mod but when I tried playing it a few months back there were barely any people playing. Even if it takes off we will never see it eclipse the official game at the pro level which is unfortunate because it is far superior.
Never say never. Dota did it. This mod can do this too.
even then, it's unlikely. BW has already been done, at the time, Dota was the only moba game around, which happened to have a big following. The big following that bw had has mostly transfered over. I don't see this mod developing a large competitive playerbase since afterall, it is bw, which is insanely difficult.
But you're right, you never know.One can hope
Nop, Dota was not the only ARTS (i don't like the Moba signification ^^), in fact there was tons of popular Dota-like some years ago, like Age Of Myths, Land of Legends I II III (these two were so nice), SMotA, EotA, some Naruto map, some AOS... ^^ But it's true that the icefrog version of DotA was always the most popular, and the other disapeer the last years.
The strength of warcraft 3 and battle.net was that you instantly see the game currently played by other user. It was so much better than battle.net 0.2 of starcraft II.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
Like it or not, SC2 is here to stay. The fact that no one can find customs of this game despite it being around for TWO YEARS shows the level of interest in it.
Getting very tired of posts like this from people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Oh and er.. SC2's ZvZ is far more entertaining than the mass muta-fest that BW's ZvZ was. Not to mention the fact that higher tier tech was completely useless in nearly every circumstance because it was almost invariably hard countered by casters.
I've seen nearly every unit in SC2 in a pro game. That's the sign of good design.
Jesus, the last time I saw this I was turned off completely. This project has come so far, unbelievable. Everybody should check this out as soon as possible.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
Like it or not, SC2 is here to stay. The fact that no one can find customs of this game despite it being around for TWO YEARS shows the level of interest in it.
Getting very tired of posts like this from people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Oh and er.. SC2's ZvZ is far more entertaining than the mass muta-fest that BW's ZvZ was. Not to mention the fact that higher tier tech was completely useless in nearly every circumstance because it was almost invariably hard countered by casters.
I've seen nearly every unit in SC2 in a pro game. That's the sign of good design.
There is no use to argue with you, because you know how to design a game.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
Like it or not, SC2 is here to stay. The fact that no one can find customs of this game despite it being around for TWO YEARS shows the level of interest in it.
Getting very tired of posts like this from people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Oh and er.. SC2's ZvZ is far more entertaining than the mass muta-fest that BW's ZvZ was. Not to mention the fact that higher tier tech was completely useless in nearly every circumstance because it was almost invariably hard countered by casters.
I've seen nearly every unit in SC2 in a pro game. That's the sign of good design.
Well after read your post i think you have no idea what you are talking about.
As the post you quote above said, i hope this mod establish itself like dota in WC3 and get more players then HOTS lol. Imagine a gsl with starcraft2broodwar =]
On December 27 2012 20:03 Masayume wrote: I am happy to see how far this mod has come. It leaves me wondering tho..
What if we implement some of the *finetuned* features of the SC2BW mod in SC2 and create a type of pro-mod. Something that would enhance SC2 games but not revert back completely to BW style. HotS is shaping up pretty well and I'd say it would be a good thing to create a pro-mod and test out some features from this mod one by one, testing what works and doesn't, so Blizzard can see the results from external testing.
Right now I am quite satisfied with how HotS seems to pan out, but if we start this Pro-mod stuff early, we can test stuff out without having to convince Blizzard to test it internally, and have something to fall back on if the game turns as stale as the PvZ matchup right now in WoL. (just an example)
I had and really like the idea of a pro-mod too some time ago. For example not being able to shift queue medivacs to go somewhere and automatically unload or preventing Infestors to shift go and spawn eggs. Would be great to artificially promote more multi tasking etc. But of course there are also some problems with that. Teamless players would be on a deficit if there is no ladder and therefore they get less practice (partners). The viewers might not fully understand what is happening because they would be used to "easy mode". etc. So, although this would be great to see and watch for some, to be succesful in the mainstream there would need to be a healthy (casual) scene with stuff like ladder around it.
mavericK, you should try and make a mod like this for starcraft2 (if you will ever have the time that is) just to find out whether the game becomes much better or not. By that I mean all the fundamentals you changed with the mod (worker ai, clumping) to transfer over to sc2 design to really see if the game becomes more fun or not; thanks for putting the effort for the mod nonetheless, it's amazing
I can see some people being turned off playing this by playing against people who know what they are doing.
What I mean is if people play this for the very first time and then get matched up against someone who knows what they are doing and then gets destroyed without a chance in the world may not be good for this in the longrun.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
A spot on assessment if I do say so myself. Would absolutely love to see some top pros at least play around with SC2BW, if not a legitimate tournament.
Just played this map with my friend and it's awesome! Great job! Had almost forgotten how much more fun it was to play Protoss in BW compared to SC2 :-) I think the map would be even better if you used the SC2 camera instead of the zoomed in BW style camera.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW was still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
Very much this. ^^
Though, oddly enough, but still awesome, Melee currently has more entrants than Brawl for the upcoming Apex 2013. Despite the Melee haters (which I don't understand), I'm glad Melee is still going strong thanks to the efforts of that community.
Just had to note that because I come from the competitive Smash community. :p
Honestly, at this point, I don't mind if there is never a true SC2BW. I just want SC2 to be improved fundamentally so that it's a better eSport and a more fun, exciting, and challenging, yet still accessible, game, which is not too much to ask because there are games that fit that criteria that exist already. If that direction happens to go the route of a true SC2BW, then good! But, if it doesn't, as long as its still changed for the best, then I'm happy.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
Very much this. ^^
Though, oddly enough, but still awesome, Melee currently has more entrants than Brawl for the upcoming Apex 2013. Despite the Melee haters (which I don't understand), I'm glad Melee is still going strong thanks to the efforts of that community.
Just had to note that because I come from the competitive Smash community. :p
Honestly, at this point, I don't mind if there is never a true SC2BW. I just want SC2 to be improved fundamentally so that it's a better eSport and a more fun, exciting, and challenging, yet still accessible, game, which is not too much to ask because there are games that fit that criteria that exist already. If that direction happens to go the route of a true SC2BW, then good! But, if it doesn't, as long as its still changed for the best, then I'm happy.
Melee got a lot smaller after brawl came out but for the last 2 years the melee scene has been growing again because its a much more interesting game with the exception of the occasional hbox vs armada match. The difference being that sakurai said specifically that he considered melee a failure because it was competitive (wtf?) and he tried his hardest to make brawl casual unlike blizz claims they are with sc2.
Project M is the real equivalent to sc2bw, and its a really fun game, although i prefer brawl minus myself.
It would be great if sc2bw got some more exposure and a scene, if nothing else that to make blizz listen. Thanks for the heads up lalush.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
I can't tell why Brood War declined outside Korea, I wasn't there since the beginning. But I was into e-sports and you are wrong in describing the state of e-sports before sc2 came out. E-sports has its ups and downs since forever. 2008-09 was a really rough period because of the economic climate, e-sports relying on marketing money, but even so, it was never close to non-existent as you describe it. Were you talking about the NA scene? Because yes, the NA scene took a big hit after 2008 when CGS died. But Europe had its warcraft3, CS:S, 1.6, WoW, Quake, cod4, dota, fifa strong back then and Brood War was nowhere. How do you explain that?
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
Very much this. ^^
Though, oddly enough, but still awesome, Melee currently has more entrants than Brawl for the upcoming Apex 2013. Despite the Melee haters (which I don't understand), I'm glad Melee is still going strong thanks to the efforts of that community.
Just had to note that because I come from the competitive Smash community. :p
Honestly, at this point, I don't mind if there is never a true SC2BW. I just want SC2 to be improved fundamentally so that it's a better eSport and a more fun, exciting, and challenging, yet still accessible, game, which is not too much to ask because there are games that fit that criteria that exist already. If that direction happens to go the route of a true SC2BW, then good! But, if it doesn't, as long as its still changed for the best, then I'm happy.
Melee got a lot smaller after brawl came out but for the last 2 years the melee scene has been growing again because its a much more interesting game with the exception of the occasional hbox vs armada match. The difference being that sakurai said specifically that he considered melee a failure because it was competitive (wtf?) and he tried his hardest to make brawl casual unlike blizz claims they are with sc2.
It would be great if sc2bw got some more exposure and a scene, if nothing else that to make blizz listen
I'm glad Sakurai is not completely at the helm this time around, but that's a bit off-topic because I could spend an entire day on the following: -What made Melee good -What makes Brawl terrible -What Sakurai did to completely ruin Brawl and why he shouldn't be in any position to be able to do the same for SSB4 -Similar topics, etc.
The comparisons are still valid, though. People still dream about the grand days of Melee as the B-word continues to suck the life out of the new Smashers. I honestly only attend Brawl tournaments because I'm friends with so many community members and I get to do commentary whenever I show up.
The differences, though, stem from SC2 being pushed heavily by tournaments and developers, unlike Brawl, which does not have any developer support and its tournament support is drastically lesser than that of League, SC2, DOTA, or even the mainstream FGC. Thus, Melee can continue to flourish because nobody is really pushing Brawl as its successor that people need to convert to. Brawl and Melee are still given equal platforms, which is not the case for SC2 and BW. That's while you'll see tournaments like Apex but you'll probably never see an Apex-equivalent featuring SC2 and BW together (not really counting the combined Proleague thing or whatever that tried to be).
Thus, the only way a Brood War mod would probably ever work competitively is if it started getting a strong enough backing where it could either: A) flourish side-by-side SC2 or B) is pushed stronger than SC2. Whether or not these realities are possible is yet to be seen, but I'm optimistic.
EDIT: Yeah, Project M to Brawl is a good parallel to SC2BW to SC2. Project M is a lot of fun. Unfortunately, its harder to push Project M in its scene because there's a lot of uncertainty in pushing a mod of a final product alongside actual final products in a sponsored event. That's why Project M is not a featured game at Apex. This doesn't seem to be mirrored in other communities (as we've seen with DOTA), though.
On December 27 2012 23:01 EonuS wrote: mavericK, you should try and make a mod like this for starcraft2 (if you will ever have the time that is) just to find out whether the game becomes much better or not. By that I mean all the fundamentals you changed with the mod (worker ai, clumping) to transfer over to sc2 design to really see if the game becomes more fun or not; thanks for putting the effort for the mod nonetheless, it's amazing
Protip: The vulture patrol is a special case. The easiest way to achieve a fluid moving shot is to “double patrol click” towards your enemy, followed by a move in your previous direction. We wanted to implement something similar in difficulty level to Brood War patrol-micro.
hold on, I though vulture patrol shot in bw was painlessly easy for me .. I remembered playing the 2 vultures vs infinite lings map
On December 27 2012 23:01 EonuS wrote: mavericK, you should try and make a mod like this for starcraft2 (if you will ever have the time that is) just to find out whether the game becomes much better or not. By that I mean all the fundamentals you changed with the mod (worker ai, clumping) to transfer over to sc2 design to really see if the game becomes more fun or not; thanks for putting the effort for the mod nonetheless, it's amazing
what??? this is a sc2 mod ..
I think he means instead of a sc2bw custom, be a sc2 custom, with the wondering worker thing added, muta stacking added, perhaps pathing adjusted, etc
Ok, got a chance to play several games yesterday. Thanks for everything Maverck, the game feels great, but there are a couple of things I feel could be improved.. These things disturbed me, and I hope you get a chance to fix this, since its basically whats keeping me from playing more:
1. SHIFT selecting units to add to group. Lets say you have control group 1 with 6 units. You want to add 6 more units. In broodwar, you select control group 1, then press shift, then make a square around your units and the game will only grab the 6 units left to fill the 12 max unit group. Great! In SC2BW, when you do this, it will grab every unit, and then deselect apparently random units from the selection to cap unit selection to 12. This sucks, as making groups for all your units seems very daunting and buggy. Cant really move stuff, then create another group, then move it, etc. Its annoying in. 2. Reaver seems way more vulnerable than in bw. Is splash ok? 3. Storm -> We need a new animation. I cant really se whats being hit, and with this storm i cant get the feeling of actually "carpetting" with storm 4. Is it possible to remove "patrol" to workers? Im not sure if bw had it or not, but spamming 0p0p0p0p can lead to your probes patrolling all around :/
Protip: The vulture patrol is a special case. The easiest way to achieve a fluid moving shot is to “double patrol click” towards your enemy, followed by a move in your previous direction. We wanted to implement something similar in difficulty level to Brood War patrol-micro.
hold on, I though vulture patrol shot in bw was painlessly easy for me .. I remembered playing the 2 vultures vs infinite lings map
You had to move click vulture to a ~135-150 degree angle to enemy first before issuing patrol. That was 2 actions.
Couldn't be done by just patrolling when travelling 180 degrees from your enemy.
1. SHIFT selecting units to add to group. Lets say you have control group 1 with 6 units. You want to add 6 more units. In broodwar, you select control group 1, then press shift, then make a square around your units and the game will only grab the 6 units left to fill the 12 max unit group. Great! In SC2BW, when you do this, it will grab every unit, and then deselect apparently random units from the selection to cap unit selection to 12. This sucks, as making groups for all your units seems very daunting and buggy. Cant really move stuff, then create another group, then move it, etc. Its annoying in.
Noticed this too, What I ended up doing at some times was control click a marine and stim, so I could stim them all at once, instead of each control group - obviously not working as intended.
I just played 2 games vs AI (they literally only build workers since they don't know what to do with these units), so it was mostly so I could get a feel of the game. Waited several minutes for a game, no one came
1. SHIFT selecting units to add to group. Lets say you have control group 1 with 6 units. You want to add 6 more units. In broodwar, you select control group 1, then press shift, then make a square around your units and the game will only grab the 6 units left to fill the 12 max unit group. Great! In SC2BW, when you do this, it will grab every unit, and then deselect apparently random units from the selection to cap unit selection to 12. This sucks, as making groups for all your units seems very daunting and buggy. Cant really move stuff, then create another group, then move it, etc. Its annoying in.
Noticed this too, What I ended up doing at some times was control click a marine and stim, so I could stim them all at once, instead of each control group - obviously not working as intended.
I just played 2 games vs AI (they literally only build workers since they don't know what to do with these units), so it was mostly so I could get a feel of the game. Waited several minutes for a game, no one came
Guys, you should not just create/join a SC2BW game; you will very rarely find a game that way. I don't know if there are people there currently, but you should go to the chat channel SC2BW and organise games there.
Also, note that you will want to "create" a game (after you do find someone in channel "SC2BW" to play with), as that is the only way to set the game settings in the lobby. Fighting Spirit is the only 1v1 map as of 12/27/2012; look under Custom Games (not under Arcade).
i noticed that the scourge doesnt rly atk anything in this mod. any time i tell them to hit something, they just instantly die upon impact, but the target doesnt receive any damage.
On December 27 2012 08:11 LaLuSh wrote: I admit moving shot may not be the most important or influential factor in actual gameplay. A great RTS game should however allow room for prodigiously dexterous players to distinguish themselves. If a specific feature has the potential to leave esport crowds in awe, it should be included in the game. End of discussion.
Okay, guy. I usually stop reading when OPs make foregone conclusions.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
Very much this. ^^
Though, oddly enough, but still awesome, Melee currently has more entrants than Brawl for the upcoming Apex 2013. Despite the Melee haters (which I don't understand), I'm glad Melee is still going strong thanks to the efforts of that community.
Just had to note that because I come from the competitive Smash community. :p
Honestly, at this point, I don't mind if there is never a true SC2BW. I just want SC2 to be improved fundamentally so that it's a better eSport and a more fun, exciting, and challenging, yet still accessible, game, which is not too much to ask because there are games that fit that criteria that exist already. If that direction happens to go the route of a true SC2BW, then good! But, if it doesn't, as long as its still changed for the best, then I'm happy.
Oh, I was a big part of the Smash community too. I remember the glory days of smashboards before Brawl infested it
I live in Texas and was a big part of the Texas smash community (was friends Crystal City and the Dkrew when first started). Went to Austin for school and became friends with Xelic/FASTLIKETREE/etc and we played smash every Friday. We would travel to tournaments all over Texas and even went to FC6 up in Indiana (that was awesome). When Brawl came out, it was exciting at first, but then it sucked the life out of everyone to the point where everyone slowly stopped playing Smash altogether. But yes, you are right that I have seen the Melee community rise again because they just had enough of trying to "reason" with Brawl players.
On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote: Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots. Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good!
Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors.
Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it.
And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium.
The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz),
No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement
Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above).
SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft.
Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming.
This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game.
The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy).
I can't tell why Brood War declined outside Korea, I wasn't there since the beginning. But I was into e-sports and you are wrong in describing the state of e-sports before sc2 came out. E-sports has its ups and downs since forever. 2008-09 was a really rough period because of the economic climate, e-sports relying on marketing money, but even so, it was never close to non-existent as you describe it. Were you talking about the NA scene? Because yes, the NA scene took a big hit after 2008 when CGS died. But Europe had its warcraft3, CS:S, 1.6, WoW, Quake, cod4, dota, fifa strong back then and Brood War was nowhere. How do you explain that?
I was a bit exaggerating when saying non-existent and I apologize for that. But yea, I was mainly talking about the NA scene (since I live here). Honestly, I think BW was nowhere, at least publicly, to be seen in NA or EU simply because Koreans were just too dominant at the game. It really discouraged a lot of people to even try to be at a top level when Korean sorta pioneered the BW movement/strats. So they were far ahead of the curve compared to everyone else. That's my explanation of it at least.
Whenever I wanted to play SC2BW the channel was always empty and I was forced to play my (bronze) brother I really hope the community really jumps at this and we can get loads of SC2BW going!
On December 28 2012 04:37 Targe wrote: Whenever I wanted to play SC2BW the channel was always empty and I was forced to play my (bronze) brother I really hope the community really jumps at this and we can get loads of SC2BW going!
Sad to hear that. I do not know how the EU scene is now, but after LaLuSh's post, NA's SC2BW channel has constantly had plenty of people to play with.
On December 27 2012 09:12 StarStruck wrote: LaLush after viewing the first sequence it appears those guys have improved upon scout micro lmao. You'd never see that in Vanilla SC let alone BW lol.
On December 27 2012 08:56 OhThatDang wrote: hold on a minute the scout wasnt that good!
On December 27 2012 09:22 omgimonfire15 wrote: Hold on, was the scout always that good or was it just that no one used it because the cost was weird.
On December 27 2012 09:27 StarStruck wrote: As I said a few posts ago. No, they accelerate and decelerate and they were expensive as shit. Corsairs were better in every way in terms of cost, splash damage output, controlling skies and d-web utility. You would use scouts to rub it in on your opponent. ;d
Scout was essentially always that good. It's a shame more people didn't/don't know about it. I liked getting scouts vs zerg, even if it wasn't the greatest move mathematically/logically to win.
The reason why scouts still sucked is because they needed speed upgrade (200/200 and quite some time) for what you saw to work, as well as the fact that they are very expensive and terribly weak vs some of the cheapest and/or most common units in the game (marine, hydralisk, missile turret, dragoon).
SC2 and/or Brood War would be so much cooler (better?) if it had scouts that start off with speed upgrade (and possibly 25-50 cheaper mineral cost); I'm so upset at some of the things Blizzard dropped the ball with.
On December 27 2012 09:12 StarStruck wrote: LaLush after viewing the first sequence it appears those guys have improved upon scout micro lmao. You'd never see that in Vanilla SC let alone BW lol.
On December 27 2012 09:27 StarStruck wrote: As I said a few posts ago. No, they accelerate and decelerate and they were expensive as shit. Corsairs were better in every way in terms of cost, splash damage output, controlling skies and d-web utility. You would use scouts to rub it in on your opponent. ;d
Scout was essentially always that good. It's a shame more people didn't/don't know about it. I liked getting scouts vs zerg, even if it wasn't the greatest move mathematically/logically to win.
The reason why scouts still sucked is because they needed speed upgrade (200/200 and quite some time) for what you saw to work, as well as the fact that they are very expensive and terribly weak vs some of the cheapest and/or most common units in the game (marine, hydralisk, missile turret, dragoon).
SC2 and/or Brood War would be so much cooler (better?) if it had scouts that start off with speed upgrade (and possibly 25-50 cheaper mineral cost); I'm so upset at some of the things Blizzard dropped the ball with.
Scouts being so bad makes TvP mech much more possible early game. Needing to invest in marines when you need to be meching is an absolute pain (see Starbow ).
I'd wager a mech timing push would wipe out half your base before those scouts could manage to clean it up anyway.
Investing in stargate and scouts in PvT is a pretty hefty investment. The amount of scouts needed to make a dent also take so long to produce that terran should have an armory by then.
225 minerals for a scout would be a fair price imo.
Blizzard could capitalize so much on this guys hard work, they could re-market the old SC and SC:BW games complete with a 'Free Remastered SC:BW Multiplayer' option, the extra potential sales for free are just too good to pass up.
On December 28 2012 04:37 Targe wrote: Whenever I wanted to play SC2BW the channel was always empty and I was forced to play my (bronze) brother I really hope the community really jumps at this and we can get loads of SC2BW going!
Sad to hear that. I do not know how the EU scene is now, but after LaLuSh's post, NA's SC2BW channel has constantly had plenty of people to play with.
This sounds hopeful, I haven't checked since this thread but I'm sure it's much improved!
On December 28 2012 05:22 LaLuSh wrote: I'd wager a mech timing push would wipe out half your base before those scouts could manage to clean it up anyway.
Investing in stargate and scouts in PvT is a pretty hefty investment. The amount of scouts needed to make a dent also take so long to produce that terran should have an armory by then.
225 minerals for a scout would be a fair price imo.
Compared to the 275? Yeah man, it just wasn't cost efficient unless you were playing someone who was really behind or not at the same level as you.
If blizzard was smart they'd make their own SC2BW DLC/expansion.... (edit: obviously I'm not the first to think of this)
On December 28 2012 05:42 mau5mat wrote: Blizzard could capitalize so much on this guys hard work, they could re-market the old SC and SC:BW games complete with a 'Free Remastered SC:BW Multiplayer' option, the extra potential sales for free are just too good to pass up.
On December 28 2012 04:37 Targe wrote: Whenever I wanted to play SC2BW the channel was always empty and I was forced to play my (bronze) brother I really hope the community really jumps at this and we can get loads of SC2BW going!
Sad to hear that. I do not know how the EU scene is now, but after LaLuSh's post, NA's SC2BW channel has constantly had plenty of people to play with.
This sounds hopeful, I haven't checked since this thread but I'm sure it's much improved!
Would probably have been better if I'd waited for HotS and global play to post this thread.
But can't wait forever on Blizzard to fix b.net only for me to be able to say what I want to say ^^
This is what we want to see, units that dramatically get more effective as you micro them better. Not only it's more fun to play, but to watch. Not things like colossus, everything with aceleration and deceleration, making it hard for fast micro, or 1-a click spells. Seriously, what is Blizzard doing with their game.
On December 28 2012 05:56 purakushi wrote: We're #2 on the Up & Coming list! Second to Unit Preloader >_<
Either I don't use arcade enough to know where to look, or I see what I see - I don't see it even top 30 in up and coming. NA, right?
This is what we want to see, units that dramatically get more effective as you micro them better, not umicroable colossus, everything with aceleration and deceleration, making it hard for fast micro, or 1-a click spells. Seriously, what is Blizzard doing with their game.
*player A focus fires collosus* *player B click collosus, clicks behind his army*
Casters: OH MY GOD, LOOK AT THAT MICRO! AMAZING MICRO FROM PLAYER B!
On December 27 2012 12:12 iPAndi wrote: And for the people telling other people to just play broodwar:
1. Broodwar wont work on a Mac. 2. Broodwar will crash and make your computer NOT RESPOND after a random interval on Windows 7 and Windows 8 3. Broodwar has a color error on w7 and w8. Theres a workaround though. 4. Broodwar public serverds filled with hackers 5. You have to go into iccup to play a decent match (or fish)
That said, if Blizzard decided to make an HD version of SCBW with bnet2, and proper OS support, i would jump in, no questions asked.
1. Broodwar does work on Mac. ICCUP launcher does not. 2. Have been playing on Windows 7 since Windows 7 came out with no problems. Did not need a patch. 3. See above 4. True, but anti hack tools are widely available and private ladders are better for 1v1 anyway 5. I play on USEast every day. I also play on Fish every day.
The exception proves the rule I guess?
Lemme try:
1. My friend has a mac, bw didn't work on it. 2. I have windows 7, bw crashes a lot. 3. Everytime I alt-tab or just plain randomly, I get colour errors. 4. True. 5. I can't host, which means I have to browse through lobby's for half an hour or more to find a decent game on Iccup
On December 28 2012 06:32 rysecake wrote: there's only 2 micro scenarios that impress me. marine splitting is one. good blink stalker micro is the other.
SWAG YOLO.
I tried making a response as retarded as your post, it didn't work.
Playing broodwar proper is certainly preferable because it is far, far more complete than a fanmade mod, but there's no reason to diss this. Who hasn't wondered how the game would play if you had a few graphics and mechanics updates? I'm glad someone helped us to learn how it turns out.
I tried to play this the other day but I couldn't log into my old account--don't know if at some point I changed the password or the email for bnet. As well as sc2 login screen just saying "username" and the connect button shaded out, with no password input immediately present and had to try external "new user". Been forever since I tried it when the mod first came out.
Hope this has success though! The wraith and vulture animations look really sharp to me, much better than I would have anticipated for true dancing wraiths.
On December 28 2012 04:37 Targe wrote: Whenever I wanted to play SC2BW the channel was always empty and I was forced to play my (bronze) brother I really hope the community really jumps at this and we can get loads of SC2BW going!
Sad to hear that. I do not know how the EU scene is now, but after LaLuSh's post, NA's SC2BW channel has constantly had plenty of people to play with.
This sounds hopeful, I haven't checked since this thread but I'm sure it's much improved!
Would probably have been better if I'd waited for HotS and global play to post this thread.
But can't wait forever on Blizzard to fix b.net only for me to be able to say what I want to say ^^
I'm sure we're all eager for Global Play's release!
On December 28 2012 06:32 rysecake wrote: there's only 2 micro scenarios that impress me. marine splitting is one. good blink stalker micro is the other.
I would like to add stutter stepping lings in sync with marines to this list.
I'm trying to play customs but it seems like half the people want to play in SC2 mode and the other half want to play in BW mode. Very frustrating and I've mentioned this before but it's going to divide up the (small) community for this map. Either stick to one or the other.
Just ran into a problem with spider mines. They do not attack dark templar unless you have detection there, in my last game the spider mines were popping up without detection just not attacking the dark templar. Once my turret finished they started popping up and attacking.
Something me and my friends can't STAND in the mod that made us not play.... Is selection issues. We want to play with 12 unit limit selection... When we drag select 50 units, briefly all 50 units are selected, then it quickly goes to 12. Can't stand it... When you're quickly trying to drag select you can't tell which ones quick enough were selected. Fix that issue and I would play sooooo much more.
On December 28 2012 10:25 FabledIntegral wrote: Something me and my friends can't STAND in the mod that made us not play.... Is selection issues. We want to play with 12 unit limit selection... When we drag select 50 units, briefly all 50 units are selected, then it quickly goes to 12. Can't stand it... When you're quickly trying to drag select you can't tell which ones quick enough were selected. Fix that issue and I would play sooooo much more.
i'd love to, but it's impossible right now until Blizzard patches in a way to do this check client side. i've been asking for it for a very very very verrrrrrrrrrrry long time.
so known bugs are obviously the larva and scourge problem, along with siege tanks not sieging. a few other weird ones like khaydarin amulet not existing. i think it's because Blizzard servers aren't updating my mods/maps properly. im going to basically delete the mod files and reupload them tonight, so they are clean. unaltered copies and should be identical to my local ones.
this should hopefully fix 99% of the bugs. including the ones above (as they dont exist on my local version, which is what i use to publish, the maps that are online should be identical to what i have on my computer but they aren't, i can only assume this is a Blizzard issue).
On December 28 2012 09:24 Piy wrote: Will play this some and report back. Looks promising from OP at any rate.
Looks fun. Obvious problems with muta and wraith micro from what I could see. It's not close to bw if there is auto mine and mbs though.
I'll just play bw for now..
While it is still a work in progress, you can set it to no automine and no MBS. There are 3 settings to make it like BW mechanics. You have to create (not join) to be able to set these in the game lobby. Micro mechanics are still being fine-tuned, of course.
I really think we should have it default to complete BW mode. It is confusing to a lot of people, and I think it is best for those who just want to quickly try it versus AI. BW people may be too quick to judge to figure out you can switch it to BW mode, and it would be sad for them to dismiss it over something as silly as that.
This would be amazing if the SC2 custom games section wasnt severely gimped.
People who are master level are going to get auto started vs bronze league players.
You wont be able to name your games like D+ TvP Only.
There wont be a long list of games to choose from.
Instead were all going to have to huddle in a channel, spending 10+ minutes to find somebody to play.
One of the saddest things you can realize about SC2 is that while the game is fucked, its nearly impossible for a mod to come out to fix the broken game itself(This worry's me most about SC2).
I hope I eat my words on this post someday, despite your guys amazing efforts, I don't see how this will work
On December 28 2012 11:39 XXXSmOke wrote: This would be amazing if the SC2 custom games section wasnt severely gimped.
People who are master level are going to get auto started vs bronze league players.
You wont be able to name your games like D+ TvP Only.
There wont be a long list of games to choose from.
Instead were all going to have to huddle in a channel, spending 10+ minutes to find somebody to play.
One of the saddest things you can realize about SC2 is that while the game is fucked, its nearly impossible for a mod to come out to fix the broken game itself(This worry's me most about SC2).
I hope I eat my words on this post someday, despite your guys amazing efforts, I don't see how this will work
While I totally agree with you that SC2 is lousy in that respect (and in many other respects *ahem*), people on BW ICCUP/FISH servers just spam the chat channels until they find someone suitable for a match. In HotS, chat channels and other social aspects of the game are improved, too, with the entrance of clans and groups. I do really miss naming the games I create, though.
On December 28 2012 11:39 XXXSmOke wrote: This would be amazing if the SC2 custom games section wasnt severely gimped.
People who are master level are going to get auto started vs bronze league players.
You wont be able to name your games like D+ TvP Only.
There wont be a long list of games to choose from.
Instead were all going to have to huddle in a channel, spending 10+ minutes to find somebody to play.
One of the saddest things you can realize about SC2 is that while the game is fucked, its nearly impossible for a mod to come out to fix the broken game itself(This worry's me most about SC2).
I hope I eat my words on this post someday, despite your guys amazing efforts, I don't see how this will work
While I totally agree with you that SC2 is really lousy in that respect (and in many other respects *ahem*), people on BW ICCUP/FISH servers just spam the chat channels until they find someone suitable for a match. In HotS, chat channels and other social aspects of the game are improved, too, with the entrance of clans and groups. I do really miss naming the games I create, though.
Thats what pisses me off.
You cant create your own named lobby in sc2 heremrerehrjehr WTF ajdsklskl. Everytime I think about that It makes my head hurt at how fucking obvious that is. Also with auto-start....... Wtf......... How why what?
I played on ICCUP all the time, I never had to rely on spamming a damn chat channel. I just joined a game and got going. Took me about 5 seconds to get an even matched game on ICCUP.
On December 28 2012 11:39 XXXSmOke wrote: This would be amazing if the SC2 custom games section wasnt severely gimped.
People who are master level are going to get auto started vs bronze league players.
You wont be able to name your games like D+ TvP Only.
There wont be a long list of games to choose from.
Instead were all going to have to huddle in a channel, spending 10+ minutes to find somebody to play.
One of the saddest things you can realize about SC2 is that while the game is fucked, its nearly impossible for a mod to come out to fix the broken game itself(This worry's me most about SC2).
I hope I eat my words on this post someday, despite your guys amazing efforts, I don't see how this will work
While I totally agree with you that SC2 is really lousy in that respect (and in many other respects *ahem*), people on BW ICCUP/FISH servers just spam the chat channels until they find someone suitable for a match. In HotS, chat channels and other social aspects of the game are improved, too, with the entrance of clans and groups. I do really miss naming the games I create, though.
Thats what pisses me off.
You cant create your own named lobby in sc2 heremrerehrjehr WTF ajdsklskl. Everytime I think about that It makes my head hurt at how fucking obvious that is. Also with auto-start....... Wtf......... How why what?
I played on ICCUP all the time, I never had to rely on spamming a damn chat channel. I just joined a game and got going. Took me about 5 seconds to get an even matched game on ICCUP.
On December 28 2012 10:10 Ouija wrote: Just ran into a problem with spider mines. They do not attack dark templar unless you have detection there, in my last game the spider mines were popping up without detection just not attacking the dark templar. Once my turret finished they started popping up and attacking.
On December 28 2012 10:10 Ouija wrote: Just ran into a problem with spider mines. They do not attack dark templar unless you have detection there, in my last game the spider mines were popping up without detection just not attacking the dark templar. Once my turret finished they started popping up and attacking.
You're playing a *very* old version of the game
no i just watched a game this afternoon where that happened. spider mine 2nd most glitched unit after scourge
On December 28 2012 11:39 XXXSmOke wrote: This would be amazing if the SC2 custom games section wasnt severely gimped.
People who are master level are going to get auto started vs bronze league players.
You wont be able to name your games like D+ TvP Only.
There wont be a long list of games to choose from.
Instead were all going to have to huddle in a channel, spending 10+ minutes to find somebody to play.
One of the saddest things you can realize about SC2 is that while the game is fucked, its nearly impossible for a mod to come out to fix the broken game itself(This worry's me most about SC2).
I hope I eat my words on this post someday, despite your guys amazing efforts, I don't see how this will work
While I totally agree with you that SC2 is really lousy in that respect (and in many other respects *ahem*), people on BW ICCUP/FISH servers just spam the chat channels until they find someone suitable for a match. In HotS, chat channels and other social aspects of the game are improved, too, with the entrance of clans and groups. I do really miss naming the games I create, though.
Thats what pisses me off.
You cant create your own named lobby in sc2 heremrerehrjehr WTF ajdsklskl. Everytime I think about that It makes my head hurt at how fucking obvious that is. Also with auto-start....... Wtf......... How why what?
I played on ICCUP all the time, I never had to rely on spamming a damn chat channel. I just joined a game and got going. Took me about 5 seconds to get an even matched game on ICCUP.
I'm really curious as to why the devs are so against the custom named games. I vaguely remember hearing the question asked during an interview with D.Browder or David Kim at some point but can't remember their specific reasoning.
Probably because adding a gimmick XP system is more important than being able to manage your game lobby to an acceptable degree. It is so much more important, they can't even take 2 days to implement it.
On December 28 2012 13:00 AnomalySC2 wrote: This looks cool but I'd rather just have SCBW with an SC2 quality ladder system. Someone should give BW the Quake Live treatment.
Agreed. However it wouldn't hurt to spruce up the graphics but retain the characteristic unit movement and control. The improved graphics would help to attract new players and e-sports viewers.
On December 28 2012 13:47 Zombo Joe wrote: Probably because adding a gimmick XP system is more important than being able to manage your game lobby to an acceptable degree. It is so much more important, they can't even take 2 days to implement it.
Well from what I recall it's not even that it's on their list of "things to do, eventually"... I am fairly sure that either D.Browder or D.Kim have said that they do not like the custom name system and do not want to re-implement it.
On December 28 2012 14:46 Daniri wrote: Why's this thread out of the custom map section?
LaLuSh's post is a good read even not for the mod. It is informative for its analysis on the economy system and production mechanics of SC2, among other things.
On December 28 2012 14:46 Daniri wrote: Why's this thread out of the custom map section?
LaLuSh's post is a good read even not for the mod. It is informative for its analysis on the economy system and production mechanics of SC2, among other things.
Pretty true. One of the most analytical and constructive posts this month.
The custom map section is abandoned. The only way this mod could possibly get advertised is through SC2 general, or as the onevoice did, the HOTS section.
Looks very good, i already tried other sc2 bw like modes but my problem was i had to search/wait for a long time to find someone to play with so i stopped playing this maps after a while.
I think this mod looks great and fun, but the problem will be to get people to play it, i don't think it will be popular on the "arcade" and therefor not many will play it.
The sc2bw chat on the NA server is pretty used, and the mod is finally played.. you can find a game pretty easily. On the other servers I think will be harder
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
In the meantime... reaver, here I come back !
Doesn´t make sense. The purpose of the game(including the mods) is to have fun. If some people have more fun playing sc2bw mod then the original game why we have to let it go? That´s what sc2editor is for. Seems you are thinking that sc2bw will compete with the original game and thats not necessarily true.
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
In the meantime... reaver, here I come back !
Doesn´t make sense. The purpose of the game(including the mods) is to have fun. If some people have more fun playing sc2bw mod then the original game why we have to let it go? That´s what sc2editor is for. Seems you are thinking that sc2bw will compete with the original game and thats not necessarily true.
I full agree with you. If the point is to have fun, well let it be ! I will gladly do that.
I was just wondering if the authors had something else in mind. I mean, thinking about an alternative ladder, etc. is pretty serious stuff, don't you think ?
oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote: oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me.
I've played on ICCUP, but the resolution made me mad T.T
On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote: oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me.
because it's BW with 3D+1080P+TrueColor,and a noob like me can macro jaedong like
I'm happy to see that finally MavercK works got recognized by the community. If you read his thread in the custom maps section you will see the huge amount of work he put into this project: new models for many units, maps, AI pathing and implementation of micro tricks. Gratz on him and all the people that helped him
Hey, it's my second post on this thread, I was just wondering, will the admins please buff the corsairs? They seem much much weaker than they were back in Brood War... I mean they barely do the damage they used to do, and mutas clean them up without micro or scourges. Also, there are a lot of other bugs (larva bugs, scourge bugs) that need to be fixed. But overall, great mod, I'm going to be a regular player.
Best of luck with your mod. I seriously doubt it will get spotlighted as Browder hates BW. I've stopped playing and almost completely stopped watching SC2 now. The games are all the same and the fundamental flaws are more jarring now after 2 years. If I find the time from Dota 2 I might patch up SC2 and give this a shot.
If nothing else, I hope your mod opens the eyes of devs to the huge failings of SC2.
On December 28 2012 22:51 sorrowptoss wrote: Hey, it's my second post on this thread, I was just wondering, will the admins please buff the corsairs? They seem much much weaker than they were back in Brood War... I mean they barely do the damage they used to do, and mutas clean them up without micro or scourges. Also, there are a lot of other bugs (larva bugs, scourge bugs) that need to be fixed. But overall, great mod, I'm going to be a regular player.
larva/scourge bugs should be resolved right now.
corsairs being weaker? should'n't be. the stats should be the same, their aoe is still pretty massive. they need a critical mass. i'll keep an eye on it however.
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
In the meantime... reaver, here I come back !
Ideally SC2 would use the things BW did right and improve on the things which were less good.
But the lead developer on SC2 does not understand RTS's and hates BW. The design philosophy of SC2 is the antithesis of BW. Instead of unique units with strengths and weaknesses we get 'samey' units like the roach and no micro units like the collossus.
With Browder in charge, don't expect much from Blizzard. This is no longer the Blizzard of BW or even War3. Those developers have long fled Kotick's stinking ship.
On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote: oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me.
if you look at the state of iccup, its less than a shadow of its past. theres no excitement on bw from the foreign community anymore, and this mod rly reinvigorated a lot of people to try it out
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
Just played a game of this last night. Let me say, listening to that music while microing stacked mutas over the natural cliff against marines and actually killing them felt so very good.
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
Dota --> Dota2
Basically the same game, people are still getting hyped for it.
I honestly think they should have just remade SC:BW with better graphics.
This thread makes me actually want to get on SC2 and play it again, in the BW mod of course.
Well Dota > Dota 2 is still a weird thing where alot of the massive players in China didnt have access and dont have computers that can support Dota 2 so they're still playing Dota 1
stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
Please take your negativity elsewhere.
I play sc2bw with friends with the sc2 mechanics (multiple building select ect.) mostly cause we suck, but its still more ufun than laddering.
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
Stop post in the sc2bw mod topic to ask people to stop to recreate bw. Let people have fun in what game/mod of sc2 they want...
On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote: oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me.
if you look at the state of iccup, its less than a shadow of its past. theres no excitement on bw from the foreign community anymore, and this mod rly reinvigorated a lot of people to try it out
I cannot argue that ICCup is but a shadow of it's former self. However, you can still find plenty of games at D/C ranks. Fish is very active if your better than that
I would big to differ on the bolded text though. While the community isn't huge there is still quite a bit of excitement for BW for both KRN and foriegn tours. Just takes a look at one if the SOSPA threads.
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
In the meantime... reaver, here I come back !
Doesn´t make sense. The purpose of the game(including the mods) is to have fun. If some people have more fun playing sc2bw mod then the original game why we have to let it go? That´s what sc2editor is for. Seems you are thinking that sc2bw will compete with the original game and thats not necessarily true.
I full agree with you. If the point is to have fun, well let it be ! I will gladly do that.
I was just wondering if the authors had something else in mind. I mean, thinking about an alternative ladder, etc. is pretty serious stuff, don't you think ?
I have the same question too. What's the next step we're gonna go from here? If the mod is successful, what's the next step? Are we gonna make more maps? based on what. Are we gonna do balance by ourselves? based on what data. Are we gonna run tournaments and Koreans are gonna play in it?
Although this mod is cool and all, I don't think it can get far. If we keep playing the same maps and the same balances people will eventually get tired of it. In BW you still have Kespa who basically takes care of everything to keep BW afloat. Is Maverck gonna be IceFrog of SC2 who basically do all the balance and stuff?
if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw)
Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making.
More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed.
People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game.
Dota --> Dota2
Basically the same game, people are still getting hyped for it.
I honestly think they should have just remade SC:BW with better graphics.
This thread makes me actually want to get on SC2 and play it again, in the BW mod of course.
Well Dota > Dota 2 is still a weird thing where alot of the massive players in China didnt have access and dont have computers that can support Dota 2 so they're still playing Dota 1
Unlike BW, DotA was super popular when people DotA2 was made, so it's easy to understand that porting completely dota1 to a new engine is a good thing (especially after a bunch of spinoff games like LoL, HoN were made already). BW was basically dead, it's very risky to remake SCBW to a new engine.
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general.
Starcraft 2 is also terrible for today's players. You make it sound like some sort of newbie-friendly, accessible, slick mainstream game, but even among modern RTS games it's archaic, controls and interface are still a pain in the ass (you can't even zoom in/out and you have to manually build workers to have a resource income, so annoying, right?). Latest Dawn of War and Supreme Commander titles feel so much more accessible and modern.
Mechanical difficulty is the MAIN reason Starcraft multiplayer was as viable and fun (and the same is true of Starcraft 2, though to a lesser extent). Even back then, Age of Empires 2 looked better, had better easier controls and interface, had bigger tech trees and more units and factions and maps with more terrain features and resources and everything. Later you also had even more feature-rich games like Age of Mythology and Rise of Nations that were by general standards all better than Starcraft (hell, some are even better than SC2 in that sense).
The thing is, anyone can make a "strategy game" and design interesting units and tech trees and whatnot. It's the physical control requirements Starcraft puts on the player that made it exciting to play and watch. With Starcraft 2, Blizzard reduced the importance of one singular thing that made the original Starcraft better than any other RTS game long after its release - the physical difficulty of managing your assets and executing strategies.
With Starcraft 2, Blizzard could have made a completely new, different game that didn't look similar at all while sticking to the spirit of Brood War gameplay, and it would be amazing. What they did was make something that looks almost like a clone of Brood War, even going so far to use the exact same races and most units, but the way it plays and feels is just wrong.
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
Apologies for rising to trollbait.
More strategy[sic] diversity? How many openings does zerg have in SC2? Or Protoss? The only vaguely comparable race is Terran and even then they have far fewer than BW.
More differences betwen races? The core army in every race in SC2 is a massing, high range, same movespeed blob of non differentiated shit. (Other than zerg which is dominated by the oh so interesting broodlord/infestor comp).
Less 'dead' units? Irrelevant. You can have no dead units if every race only has one unit. Hardly makes for a good game.
BW was only big in korea. Irrelevant. Nobody said BW was good because it was big. Big doesn't mean good. Halo is 'big' but it is far inferior to Quake or CS.
The pathfinding video. Looks like a an RTS game. The units seem like they are autonomous... shocking to me Blizzard doesnt see this fault of their game. Moving up a ramp from an angle has a drawback.
I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that.
But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't.
However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods.
LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ?
What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ?
In the meantime... reaver, here I come back !
Others are working on that. SC2BW, Starbow and OneGoal are all going about improving SC2 in a big way differently. See the second post of the thread for (many) details.
On December 29 2012 02:25 canikizu wrote: I have the same question too. What's the next step we're gonna go from here? If the mod is successful, what's the next step? Are we gonna make more maps? based on what. Are we gonna do balance by ourselves? based on what data. Are we gonna run tournaments and Koreans are gonna play in it?
Although this mod is cool and all, I don't think it can get far. If we keep playing the same maps and the same balances people will eventually get tired of it. In BW you still have Kespa who basically takes care of everything to keep BW afloat. Is Maverck gonna be IceFrog of SC2 who basically do all the balance and stuff?
You didn´t get the point no? Balance what? His goal is to emulate bw in the sc2 (with same STATS), not balance the game. BW was balanced around maps and nobody really complain about it. Nobody will ask to Maverck "nerf lurker! they are so strong against my marines". He has just to refine the mod to get as close to bw as it can and try make more maps. Enjoy and have fun...
On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote: oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me.
because it's BW with 3D+1080P+TrueColor,and a noob like me can macro jaedong like
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
I'll spoiler this since I do not want to go into sc2 vs BW, but I just want to point my thoughts out
how can you be any more wrong about the situation, not only do you not provide any points other than the common stereotypes of "scbw has terrible ui", you also seem to blindfolded that starcraft 2 can get fixed by a few patches for units when it's fundamentally broken as a game in whole.
The reason scbw is more interesting to not only watch, but to play is because of the amount of limited control you have when you are playing the game. SC2 gives you infinitely more control over your army, your production, your worker management, to the point where almost everyone does the same thing, and everyone has the same management. I cannot see an average joe sc2 zerg controlling 200/200 army of ultralisks, defilers, zerglings and lurkers like they can do with one control key in starcraft2. I cannot see them control 10 defilers to constantly cast swarm without having their macro suffer. Is that not the entire point? The more supply your army is, the harder it should get for you and the more actions required for you to control it while still managing your economy and production. The more production you have, the more time it should take you to go through all of the buildings. The more bases you have, the better you have to control your mineral and gas count because you'll have more and more income per base. The more bases you have, the harder it gets for you to control your own army due to the actions required for defense. These are just one of the few characteristics that BW has which starcraft2 does not. There are abilities in starcraft broodwar that are imbalanced and would, with starcraft2's design, completely break the game. However, most of the ability lies within the player AND his opponent to deal with the spells, making it two sided and leaves a lot more room for error. To me, this type of design seems to have a very metodical, logical approach, yet still maintains the fun spirit of the game.
As lalush has pointed out, in starcraft2 you almost never need to go above 3 base (except zerg because of the gases). Not only does that narrow down the amount of options that you have to break your enemy's defense, but because of macro simplicity (automining, having many production buildings in same unit group, controling your entire army with just few keystrokes) AND because of the fact that you don't feel pressured to take more bases there is little space for you to excel at something in which your opponent doesn't, leaving them only with a few routes. Two of them are micro and unit control. But now to add some hypocrisy, blizzard has introduced two abilities that have been broken since the beginning of starcraft2, forcefields and fungal growth. When one plays against such spells, he can only hope that his opponent makes mistakes as he will be UNABLE to micro against them due to their mechanics. And then one can ask himself "why is the game so passive?". Talking about strategy of choice, from pure observation almost every zerg on world goes for 3 hatch with queens play as anything else is pointless. This build clearly gives you a big advantage over your opponent, therefore doing any all ins is pointless as it is a risk that can put you behind (ironically, not always the case as in TvZ it can put zerg ahead if terran goes for banshee hellion play). So what does this leave you with? A swarm of faceless players. Not only do all zergs play the same, since terrans cannot all in zerg anymore, it leaves them with less options than fingers on hand. So much for the strategy variation. There are only a few players that are exciting to watch and even that is because of their PAST innovations (marineking's marine split, stephano's crazy macro and engagements, MVP's tactical brilliance). One year later, many more players are mechanically on par with them. Are players truly improving that rapidly or is there something else involved here?
So what does this mean for the future professionals? Breakthroughs in skill are definitely much less probable than in bw because of the softcap that starcraft2 has right now, and it won't change in HoTS either. Units come and go, fundamental problems and design issues will stay here until blizzard redesigns their philosophy.
only when a post like this appears do I realize the sheer brilliance that old blizzard put into this game along with some happy accidents
edit: talking about the 3 base play, worst of it all is that almost every map is the same and centered around you getting 3 bases without any reprecussions
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
I'll spoiler this since I do not want to go into sc2 vs BW, but I just want to point my thoughts out
how can you be any more wrong about the situation, not only do you not provide any points other than the common stereotypes of "scbw has terrible ui", you also seem to blindfolded that starcraft 2 can get fixed by a few patches for units when it's fundamentally broken as a game in whole.
The reason scbw is more interesting to not only watch, but to play is because of the amount of limited control you have when you are playing the game. SC2 gives you infinitely more control over your army, your production, your worker management, to the point where almost everyone does the same thing, and everyone has the same management. I cannot see an average joe sc2 zerg controlling 200/200 army of ultralisks, defilers, zerglings and lurkers like they can do with one control key in starcraft2. I cannot see them control 10 defilers to constantly cast swarm without having their macro suffer. Is that not the entire point? The more supply your army is, the harder it should get for you and the more actions required for you to control it while still managing your economy and production. The more production you have, the more time it should take you to go through all of the buildings. The more bases you have, the better you have to control your mineral and gas count because you'll have more and more income per base. The more bases you have, the harder it gets for you to control your own army due to the actions required for defense. These are just one of the few characteristics that BW has which starcraft2 does not. There are abilities in starcraft broodwar that are imbalanced and would, with starcraft2's design, completely break the game. However, most of the ability lies within the player AND his opponent to deal with the spells, making it two sided and leaves a lot more room for error. To me, this type of design seems to have a very metodical, logical approach, yet still maintains the fun spirit of the game.
As lalush has pointed out, in starcraft2 you almost never need to go above 3 base (except zerg because of the gases). Not only does that narrow down the amount of options that you have to break your enemy's defense, but because of macro simplicity (automining, having many production buildings in same unit group, controling your entire army with just few keystrokes) AND because of the fact that you don't feel pressured to take more bases there is little space for you to excel at something in which your opponent doesn't, leaving them only with a few routes. Two of them are micro and unit control. But now to add some hypocrisy, blizzard has introduced two abilities that have been broken since the beginning of starcraft2, forcefields and fungal growth. When one plays against such spells, he can only hope that his opponent makes mistakes as he will be UNABLE to micro against them due to their mechanics. And then one can ask himself "why is the game so passive?". Talking about strategy of choice, from pure observation almost every zerg on world goes for 3 hatch with queens play as anything else is pointless. This build clearly gives you a big advantage over your opponent, therefore doing any all ins is pointless as it is a risk that can put you behind (ironically, not always the case as in TvZ it can put zerg ahead if terran goes for banshee hellion play). So what does this leave you with? A swarm of faceless players. Not only do all zergs play the same, since terrans cannot all in zerg anymore, it leaves them with less options than fingers on hand. So much for the strategy variation. There are only a few players that are exciting to watch and even that is because of their PAST innovations (marineking's marine split, stephano's crazy macro and engagements, MVP's tactical brilliance). One year later, many more players are mechanically on par with them. Are players truly improving that rapidly or is there something else involved here?
So what does this mean for the future professionals? Breakthroughs in skill are definitely much less probable than in bw because of the softcap that starcraft2 has right now, and it won't change in HoTS either. Units come and go, fundamental problems and design issues will stay here until blizzard redesigns their philosophy.
only when a post like this appears do I realize the sheer brilliance that old blizzard put into this game along with some happy accidents
edit: talking about the 3 base play, worst of it all is that almost every map is the same and centered around you getting 3 bases without any reprecussions
It seems like there is a simple solution; increase the supply cap.
I stopped playing SC2 some months ago, because my race feels so stale and boring. I trust the positive feedback in this thread and will definately give SC2BW a real try.
Thanks Maverick for putting all the hours into this project. I hope that your mod will find many players
It seems like there is a simple solution; increase the supply cap.
I agree, relative to broodwar, starcraft2 supply cap is really small, not only do you have more workers per base but the units in general cost more supply than in broodwar, but blizzard always falls back to "oh my god we're in 2012, we need to design a game for people with terrible computers", almost pointless to communicate with them.
This would be a step in right direction but sounds scary considering broodlord/infestor could be amassed to even bigger numbers than before (considering zerg is always a base ahead to other two)
It seems like there is a simple solution; increase the supply cap.
I agree, relative to broodwar, starcraft2 supply cap is really small, not only do you have more workers per base but the units in general cost more supply than in broodwar, but blizzard always falls back to "oh my god we're in 2012, we need to design a game for people with terrible computers", almost pointless to communicate with them.
This would be a step in right direction but sounds scary considering broodlord/infestor could be amassed to even bigger numbers than before (considering zerg is always a base ahead to other two)
It's true that the solution isn't as simple as I previously suggested, but it would be interesting to see the game starting with 12 workers and a 300+ supply though. I completely agree 200 is way too low with multiple building groups and the ability to select infinity units. I really wish blizzard would use more resources on developing sc2 but unfortunately sc2 has to compete with WoWcrack...
How 300 supply is an option ? The problem you guys are speaking about isn't the supply, it's the amount of units you can control on single groups (one to infinite). Adding 100 more supply would not magically solve that.
Not like a give a damn, i wouldn't play that control group caps /shrug.
It seems like there is a simple solution; increase the supply cap.
I agree, relative to broodwar, starcraft2 supply cap is really small, not only do you have more workers per base but the units in general cost more supply than in broodwar, but blizzard always falls back to "oh my god we're in 2012, we need to design a game for people with terrible computers", almost pointless to communicate with them.
This would be a step in right direction but sounds scary considering broodlord/infestor could be amassed to even bigger numbers than before (considering zerg is always a base ahead to other two)
It's true that the solution isn't as simple as I previously suggested, but it would be interesting to see the game starting with 12 workers and a 300+ supply though. I completely agree 200 is way too low with multiple building groups and the ability to select infinity units. I really wish blizzard would use more resources on developing sc2 but unfortunately sc2 has to compete with WoWcrack...
that would not help with anything, having 12 workers to begin with just speeds up the situation rather than slows it down. Instead of making situation better you're just amplfying the numbers that way.
On December 29 2012 04:32 Godwrath wrote: How 300 supply is an option ? The problem you guys are speaking about isn't the supply, it's the amount of units you can control on single groups (one to infinite). Adding 100 more supply would not magically solve that.
Not like a give a damn, i wouldn't play that control group caps /shrug.
Actually the maximum number of units you can have in one control group is 255, at least get your facts correct if you're going to make claims about unit selection.
It seems like there is a simple solution; increase the supply cap.
I agree, relative to broodwar, starcraft2 supply cap is really small, not only do you have more workers per base but the units in general cost more supply than in broodwar, but blizzard always falls back to "oh my god we're in 2012, we need to design a game for people with terrible computers", almost pointless to communicate with them.
This would be a step in right direction but sounds scary considering broodlord/infestor could be amassed to even bigger numbers than before (considering zerg is always a base ahead to other two)
It's true that the solution isn't as simple as I previously suggested, but it would be interesting to see the game starting with 12 workers and a 300+ supply though. I completely agree 200 is way too low with multiple building groups and the ability to select infinity units. I really wish blizzard would use more resources on developing sc2 but unfortunately sc2 has to compete with WoWcrack...
that would not help with anything, having 12 workers to begin with just speeds up the situation rather than slows it down. Instead of making situation better you're just amplfying the numbers that way.
But it would allow players to enter the end game much faster. The idea would be solely for entertainment purposes.
On December 29 2012 04:32 Godwrath wrote: How 300 supply is an option ? The problem you guys are speaking about isn't the supply, it's the amount of units you can control on single groups (one to infinite). Adding 100 more supply would not magically solve that.
Not like a give a damn, i wouldn't play that control group caps /shrug.
It would create more opportunities to micro more units and increase the skill ceiling. That would be the goal.
As a personal opinion I'll love to see a mod that takes the best from both games.
Bw is ofc a much better game than Sc2, but it was because of the huge micro capabilities, the unit interactions and the amazing balance that allowed back and forth games (plus a much lower dps that allows more interesting fights, and more micro compared to the retarded insane sc2 dps).
But why set the old engine limitations and maps back?
I 'll love to see a Sc2 mod with just Sc2 stuff, but with Bw dps, bw micro capabilities, and best units of both worlds (eg: infestor removed as a start). That would be really really amazing.
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
- More strategy diversity *COUGH* *COUGH* Are we talking about the same game? Did you even play BW so much strategy compared to SC2. I guess you could mean the wide array of strategies that were viable over the time of SC2, but if you really look at it only one or two things have been viable at a time and don't give me the bullshit of things being undiscovered because the majority of evolution and change of strategy was due to patch changes. If you look at the metagame right now and compare it to brood wars it's as shallow as a pond compared to a lake.
- Dead units. There are no dead units in BW every unit is used except for infested terran and scout I guess and scouts still have use if you do 12 nexx on in-base map and you go for a carrier rush which is viable you need a couple scouts to force the terran to build goliaths so that your dragoons can break the contain because he has less tanks because of the lesser gas investment. The scout has a VERY limited role, but it can be used you can also do a semi-viable 3 gate goon scout all-in vs zerg. And Infested terrans OBVIOUSLY can't be used in any match up except for TvZ and they are very hard to get to OBVIOUSLY they are kind of like the Mothership of BW except that Mothership is actually used even though in theory it shouldn't be except for Holy World
*Note: It has a neutral command center that can be infested*
What other units could be *dead* well:
-Ghosts get used for Lockdown , emping and nuking -Battlecruisers are often times used in late lategame TvT and TvZ -Valkyrie is used effectively in the Fantasy build -Dark Archons are seldom used in PvZ and in extremly rare situations in PvP (Feedback) -The queens are very viable as was shown in the last two years before KESPAs abandonment of BW
Literally every unit can have a use in BW if they are used in the correct situation. There are match ups where you don't see certain units, but it's the same in SC2 even more so if you ask me.
I'm going to cover one more thing because everything else was already covered on the previous page when people were responding to your delusional and non-understanding comparison of the two games and that is the part where you said that the issues of SC2 can be fixed and it can be made better than BW now in theory it can be, but I'm not talking about changing how specific units function I'm talking about changing how ALL units behave in terms of pathing, certain units playing bigger roles with a drawback (Requiring babysitting to be effective AKA APM *Removing the collosus and adding the Reaver would probably be the first step in the right direction etc etc)
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote: oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me.
because it's BW with 3D+1080P+TrueColor,and a noob like me can macro jaedong like
but it isn't as nice and we like 640x480:D
640x480 fucks with your mouse sensitivity and there are a whole mess of other annoying shit
I agree with the problem of how fast zerg and protoss can remax so fast and the zero reinforce distance for protoss is a problem. I find the issue with warpgates is that there's no downside to choosing the warpgate mode rather then gateway mode. I think they should make it a trade off to choose between the two rather then just have warpgates better in every way.
I checked out the mod and I think it's great, but I'm a little confused. I can find the BW unit selection option, but how do I turn off smart-casting?
BTW, I'm assuming most people participating in the mod are BW iccup players, but are there any, like me, who started with SC2 and are now giving SC2BW a go? If so, are you playing with pure BW settings, SC2 settings, or a mix of both? Personally, I have auto-mine turned, but like having unlimited unit/building selection turned off.
On December 29 2012 04:32 Godwrath wrote: How 300 supply is an option ? The problem you guys are speaking about isn't the supply, it's the amount of units you can control on single groups (one to infinite). Adding 100 more supply would not magically solve that.
Not like a give a damn, i wouldn't play that control group caps /shrug.
Actually the maximum number of units you can have in one control group is 255, at least get your facts correct if you're going to make claims about unit selection.
On December 29 2012 06:55 awwnuts07 wrote: I checked out the mod and I think it's great, but I'm a little confused. I can find the BW unit selection option, but how do I turn off smart-casting?
BTW, I'm assuming most people participating in the mod are BW iccup players, but are there any, like me, who started with SC2 and are now giving SC2BW a go? If so, are you playing with pure BW settings, SC2 settings, or a mix of both? Personally, I have auto-mine turned, but like having unlimited unit/building selection turned off.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is a bug with spider mines. When air units fly over burrowed enemy mines, it reveals itself. But very fun map though I enjoyed it.
On December 29 2012 06:55 awwnuts07 wrote: I checked out the mod and I think it's great, but I'm a little confused. I can find the BW unit selection option, but how do I turn off smart-casting?
BTW, I'm assuming most people participating in the mod are BW iccup players, but are there any, like me, who started with SC2 and are now giving SC2BW a go? If so, are you playing with pure BW settings, SC2 settings, or a mix of both? Personally, I have auto-mine turned, but like having unlimited unit/building selection turned off.
Instead of clicking JOIN, you need to CREATE a game. So then you will have an ability to change options in Lobby
So, i played/watched some games with the latest eu update and it feels great, units finally have a something special ... if you played bw you understand. get this mod on korean server asap
On December 29 2012 09:59 Mastazaka wrote: Anyone else having problems with the ranking system? I have not lost a game yet it says 7 wins 7 losses. When I have only play 7 games....
pretty sure ranking system is like the last thing we need to focus on. theres still alot of bugs/fixes to be found
On December 29 2012 09:59 Mastazaka wrote: Anyone else having problems with the ranking system? I have not lost a game yet it says 7 wins 7 losses. When I have only play 7 games....
pretty sure ranking system is like the last thing we need to focus on. theres still alot of bugs/fixes to be found
On December 29 2012 09:59 Mastazaka wrote: Anyone else having problems with the ranking system? I have not lost a game yet it says 7 wins 7 losses. When I have only play 7 games....
It's actually displaying total wins / total games instead of wins / loses
My sc2 had some connection problem yesterday.Just tried on KR server,someone uploads a very old ver on it,so i said u did a very good job. Today I used Google DNS to log in and played these maps,and..............
MavercK,u shocked me.it's not a good job,It's Godlik!.u r a real genius,u savior of BW, gave it a new life for 10s years.
I'm waiting for a BW tourney with sc2, image bw pros play on these maps .......WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!
The problem with sc2 is that there are too many resources per base, so staying on 3 base economy its easy to max out. if there were less resources per base, the game would be more about macro and the speed of a player than it is now. I don't see why map makers don't try this out and see how the games play out.
This has been around for some time now so nothing much new. But I like it and people should definitely check it out, even if you've never played Brood War - gogo check it out!
And, imho, this is what SC2 should have been. Pretty much what DotA 2 is to the original DotA. Better graphics, some new mechanical adjustments (just some small things to make it a bit easier) but, overall, the same core gameplay. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but that's just what I think. There are a lot of other ways to make the game more casual-friendly. A lot more could be though of but maybe something like constantly updated turorials and a video guide library courtesy of the community, NR10 maps, maybe and "easy mode" with a seperate ladder.
Please don't immediately flame me for this, for it is just an opinion that you may or may not share. I think the core gameplay of BW is superior to that of SC2 and the sequel should have more closely followed in the footsteps of the original.
On December 29 2012 11:27 knOxStarcraft wrote: The problem with sc2 is that there are too many resources per base, so staying on 3 base economy its easy to max out. if there were less resources per base, the game would be more about macro and the speed of a player than it is now. I don't see why map makers don't try this out and see how the games play out.
They tried. There was a bunch of maps with 6 mineral patches and 1 gas per base only. Those were fun but didn't catch on.
The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Yes... I totally agree.. Something like Valve is doing with Dota...
Blizzard recently is trying to ReDesign older version of games, SC, Diablo... And it's not payin off for them.
On December 29 2012 14:24 Sadist wrote: not sure if its been posted but your firebat doesnt have stim on it ;(
thanks, looking at it theres lots wrong with the firebat, fixing it now.
You probably noticed, but I just wanted to note that there is no way to tell which team firebats are on. Red players especially, it is difficult to tell the difference between marines and firebats.
P.S. The hatcheries have the correct amount of HP on Andromeda now. Yay, I guess the publishing servers finally decided to work. I'll keep a lookout to see if the other maps reflect it later.
SC2BW mod has a built in iCCup style ranking system. As of right now, the stats are only stored locally on your computer. If the mod were to take off and become popular, a website could be created to track rankings with the help of a 3rd party program (to scan your ranking file).
The ranks are race specific, if you should like to dabble in off racing.
Ive been wondering if this would even be allowed, anyone have any thoughts on this?
SC2BW mod has a built in iCCup style ranking system. As of right now, the stats are only stored locally on your computer. If the mod were to take off and become popular, a website could be created to track rankings with the help of a 3rd party program (to scan your ranking file).
The ranks are race specific, if you should like to dabble in off racing.
Ive been wondering if this would even be allowed, anyone have any thoughts on this?
theres a few ways, manually upload replays to a website, manually upload bank files to a website. personally my favorite idea is a website that will scan you bank file automatically (after you give it permission) meaning you only need the website open, minimal effort at all from the user.
but im not even sure if thats possible. (browsers are locked down pretty tight in terms of seeing a client computers files)
SC2BW mod has a built in iCCup style ranking system. As of right now, the stats are only stored locally on your computer. If the mod were to take off and become popular, a website could be created to track rankings with the help of a 3rd party program (to scan your ranking file).
The ranks are race specific, if you should like to dabble in off racing.
Ive been wondering if this would even be allowed, anyone have any thoughts on this?
theres a few ways, manually upload replays to a website, manually upload bank files to a website. personally my favorite idea is a website that will scan you bank file automatically (after you give it permission) meaning you only need the website open, minimal effort at all from the user.
but im not even sure if thats possible. (browsers are locked down pretty tight in terms of seeing a client computers files)
I meant if Blizzard would allow for this to happen, sorry.
Its no where near anything like emulating Battlenet, but its definitely a step up from a simple sc2ranks.com site and taking a very small step in that direction. Its not just accessing public battlenet profiles and creating a global ranking anymore. Its actually reading our game files (does bank files count as game files even?) and uploading to a non-blizzard website.
Is this too much of a step up from a simple sc2ranks.com type of website or are we still good?
Just played a game against AI to test out the game. Pretty awesome. Carriers seemed a little off, but i'm sure that's NOT the easiest thing to recreate. Basically If i had a carrier attacking a supply or w/e, and the supply died, and there was an SCV within leash range, a few of the intercepters would go back in to the carrier, while the carrier moved into it's attack range and deploy the rest of it's intercepters. I'm guessing the reaver's scarab has the same stats as BW does? Though it seemed like even the "money" scarab didn't seem to kill THAT many scvs as i had expected it to. Apart from that the game looked AMAZINGGGGG. Dragoons seemed so much smarter lol, almost seemed wrong.
SC2BW mod has a built in iCCup style ranking system. As of right now, the stats are only stored locally on your computer. If the mod were to take off and become popular, a website could be created to track rankings with the help of a 3rd party program (to scan your ranking file).
The ranks are race specific, if you should like to dabble in off racing.
Ive been wondering if this would even be allowed, anyone have any thoughts on this?
Programs are allowed to scan replays of Starcraft 2; otherwise you wouldn't have programs like SC2Gears in [essentially legal] existance. A more precise example is a 3rd party program for a Starcraft 2 MOBA/DotA game called Storm of the Imperial Sanctum (although the program/website doesn't officially doesn't exist anymore, but I think that's just due to it's lack of popularity)
On December 29 2012 16:00 MavercK wrote: theres a few ways, manually upload replays to a website, manually upload bank files to a website. personally my favorite idea is a website that will scan you bank file automatically (after you give it permission) meaning you only need the website open, minimal effort at all from the user.
but im not even sure if thats possible.(browsers are locked down pretty tight in terms of seeing a client computers files)
While I'm sure it's possible, it's probably not convenient or easy. I would not recommend it in general. A program that just scans replays at the end is the best option I'd say.
On December 29 2012 11:27 knOxStarcraft wrote: The problem with sc2 is that there are too many resources per base, so staying on 3 base economy its easy to max out. if there were less resources per base, the game would be more about macro and the speed of a player than it is now. I don't see why map makers don't try this out and see how the games play out.
I've thought about this, and as mentioned the obvious solution would be to reduce the mineral patches and have only 1 gas geyser, which has been tried before.
But it's more than that. The presence of a super-charged economy (mules, injects, chrono to a lesser degree), coupled with production capabilities on steroids (reactors, injects, chrono/warpgate) and topped off with what is imo unnecessary strategic-depth-removing speed and damage of the current default SC2 game, and you have that unneasy feeling of units feeling so quick to max out, and games ending with a stupid deathball push.
The game needs to slow down in production, economy, and damage; that result is the feeling I get when I play SC2BW.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
Personally I think the unit selection is the key problem, because it makes using "too many" units too easy. Mutalisks are the perfect example for that, but Marine-Medic clumps are probably another. A limit of 12 units per selection should be standard and not optional IMO.
The building selection is the reason why there are "too many" units on the battlefield, but maybe a compromise - lets say limiting it to 3 buildings in one selection - could be found.
Limits in unit selection and lower numbers of units on the battlefield are good, because they prevent or at least limit overwhelming an opponent by sheer numbers. This is one of the problems which plague SC2, because expensive units are easily overrun by masses of smaller and more easily reproduced units. The tight clumps and large numbers of units also "required" that AoE damage had to be nerfed.
----
After playing a few games I have to say that the pathing is nothing short of brilliant! It makes the game look more alive than the synchronized units movement of SC2.
After some comparisons between the "bonus damage systems" I have come to the conclusion that I prefer the one of BW to the one from SC2 simply because the ratios are fixed and anchoring them to the size of the unit makes more sense IMO. So that is a big plus for this mod too.
There are obviously some quirks in the visuals because some of the Terran addons didnt really look as if they were connected to the production / research building, but that is only minor irritation.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
Actually it would still work, Terran has two air based units with aoe to counter it. One you want regardless of what the enemy is going.
Only thing I really see it breaking is mass army movement and perhaps the usage of lings.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
Actually it would still work, Terran has two air based units with aoe to counter it. One you want regardless of what the enemy is going.
Only thing I really see it breaking is mass army movement and perhaps the usage of lings.
No it wont work, because even if Terrans have the units which could pull it off they need the precognition to build them in sufficient numbers. In any case massive numbers of tightly packed units dont allow for comebacks or mistakes ... you HAVE TO HAVE the right unit composition to counter that and that means scouting. This cant be done that easily for every race as it can be done by Terrans.
The game would be better off with limited unit selection, because it allows for longer and more interesting battles and prevents AoE from becoming too important.
On December 29 2012 06:55 awwnuts07 wrote: I checked out the mod and I think it's great, but I'm a little confused. I can find the BW unit selection option, but how do I turn off smart-casting?
BTW, I'm assuming most people participating in the mod are BW iccup players, but are there any, like me, who started with SC2 and are now giving SC2BW a go? If so, are you playing with pure BW settings, SC2 settings, or a mix of both? Personally, I have auto-mine turned, but like having unlimited unit/building selection turned off.
I don't think many iccup players play this. Even tho its good its still vastly different.
If I want to play Broodwar I play Iccup or Fish. This mod is great, but It is not Broodwar. It is different in many things. Furthermore Fish has around 10.000 simultaneous players, and in this mod in Europe you barelly find games.
On December 29 2012 11:51 shizaep wrote: This has been around for some time now so nothing much new. But I like it and people should definitely check it out, even if you've never played Brood War - gogo check it out!
And, imho, this is what SC2 should have been. Pretty much what DotA 2 is to the original DotA. Better graphics, some new mechanical adjustments (just some small things to make it a bit easier) but, overall, the same core gameplay. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but that's just what I think. There are a lot of other ways to make the game more casual-friendly. A lot more could be though of but maybe something like constantly updated turorials and a video guide library courtesy of the community, NR10 maps, maybe and "easy mode" with a seperate ladder.
Please don't immediately flame me for this, for it is just an opinion that you may or may not share. I think the core gameplay of BW is superior to that of SC2 and the sequel should have more closely followed in the footsteps of the original.
I partially agree with you. Let me give you an example:
Microsoft so far launched 3 series of Age of Empires, AoE1 AoE2 and AoE3, with roughly an average of 2 expansions in between. The thing is, from AoE1 to AoE2 many things in gameplay actually changed, but they were able to build upon AoE1, and improve it. So all in all, AoE2 became as a general consesus better than AoE1. From AoE2 to AoE3 they also changed gameplay, but started creating stupid additions that don't feel like AoE, that ultimately made it worse, even though it had much better graphics than AoE2 (mainly because of being 3D), and it's by far the worst game of the series.
The thing is, changing gameplay could actually improve a game, if you know what you are doing. If you let the things that are good stay, and improve on the worse things, you could be on to something. Changing the good things is riskier, and that's what they did with SC2. BW could be improved a lot, and not only in graphics. If BW was the perfect game i'm sure much more people would play it, it for sure has many ways it can be improved upon. What Bliz basically did was "ok we got 3 races, a bunch of units to maintain so it has some continuity, but let's make a new game".
If I want to play Broodwar I play Iccup or Fish. This mod is great, but It is not Broodwar. It is different in many things. Furthermore Fish has around 10.000 simultaneous players, and in this mod in Europe you barelly find games.
I'd say that the point of this mod isnt to replicate BW exactly (they arent yet done with it anyways) but rather to have a starting point with the best of both games ... and thus BW with some acceptable improvements from the SC2 engine. The graphics of BW are a tad old after all ...
Blizzard should box this stuff as a separate game and sell this for some 15€ as Broodwar II. It likely would be more successful in the competitive scene .. Bizzards marketing strat was disastrous overall, they killed the Korean Broodwar scene (law suites etc.) and failed to replace the vaccum with SC2. They should have listened to complaints of Pro's and the community. They underestimated the skill a pro player builds up and made the game somewhat boring by removing advanced micro. A micro intensive RTS is easier to balance and creates more variable gameplay (micro-specialist players can use specific army compositions more effective than other players).
If I want to play Broodwar I play Iccup or Fish. This mod is great, but It is not Broodwar. It is different in many things. Furthermore Fish has around 10.000 simultaneous players, and in this mod in Europe you barelly find games.
That makes sense. Unfortunately, I play on a mac (my comp is predominantly for work, gaming a distant second) so if I want to play BW i would have to install bootcamp. Not gonna do that for one game, so I'll take what i can get.
ok I tested it out against people. I will definately come back, playing protoss is actually fun. You can attack in the early or midgame without committing to semi all ins or do or die moves. You are officially awesome now, Maverck
If I want to play Broodwar I play Iccup or Fish. This mod is great, but It is not Broodwar. It is different in many things. Furthermore Fish has around 10.000 simultaneous players, and in this mod in Europe you barelly find games.
That makes sense. Unfortunately, I play on a mac (my comp is predominantly for work, gaming a distant second) so if I want to play BW i would have to install bootcamp. Not gonna do that for one game, so I'll take what i can get.
There is BW for mac. Although I'm not sure how to change servers to ICCUP or Fish.
If I want to play Broodwar I play Iccup or Fish. This mod is great, but It is not Broodwar. It is different in many things. Furthermore Fish has around 10.000 simultaneous players, and in this mod in Europe you barelly find games.
That makes sense. Unfortunately, I play on a mac (my comp is predominantly for work, gaming a distant second) so if I want to play BW i would have to install bootcamp. Not gonna do that for one game, so I'll take what i can get.
There is BW for mac. Although I'm not sure how to change servers to ICCUP or Fish.
oh, I have BW on my mac but I can't connect to ICCUP or fish
Again.. I'm gonna post that this game is so freaking fun. MavercK is keeping it updated constantly and is fixing the random bugs that pop up, and every update the game just seems better. I'm really, really enjoying it.
If there's a lot of people that play on EU, I guess I'll have to jump on there when I can't find anyone playing on the NA server.
wow, played some games and it makes more fun. What I noticed so far:
* you mine with 3 drones as much gas as with 6 on SC2. You can get early lings speed wihtout being all-in or massive behind. Taking gas does not eat that much into your mineral economy (half the drones needed). This changes game a lot. In SC2 any non-late game agression gets all-innish. Harras often does not payoff, its too easy to wall off. So in SC2 there is not much inbetween 100% macro mode or 100% All-in.
* Lurkers add a new dimension to Zerg play, as you can hold chokes, play more strategical/positiional.
* walling is harder, this gives agression a higher chance to do damage.
* without injects there is more attention and APM left for micro.
I played this once a while back, and all the crossover from SC2 was too frustrating. If you're going to do it- make it BroodWar as much as is possible. No automining. No Smart Casting. No MBS. Nothing. Give it the exact, horrible, hexagonal movement. Just replicate Broodwar. I understand that some of this is very hard to do but- without those limitations it isn't Broodwar anymore.
edit: I stand corrected. I would ninja edit my post but I don't want to remove it. Thank you.
I think this is kinda what SC2 should've been. A cross-breed of BW in its entirety and new technology for the P/T and mutated units for the Z. Its not BW, but its close enough that BW fanatics would've embraced this a lot quicker. Wonderful job and a very entertaining game.
On December 30 2012 08:04 CursOr wrote: I played this once a while back, and all the crossover from SC2 was too frustrating. If you're going to do it- make it BroodWar as much as is possible. No automining. No Smart Casting. No MBS. Nothing. Give it the exact, horrible, hexagonal movement. Just replicate Broodwar. I understand that some of this is very hard to do but- without those limitations it isn't Broodwar anymore.
What are you talking about? All of these options exist.
1. No automining - done. 2. No smart casting - done. 3. No MBS - done. 4. Pathing - as close as engine allows.
Just make sure to create a game and select these in the options pane.
On December 30 2012 08:04 CursOr wrote: I played this once a while back, and all the crossover from SC2 was too frustrating. If you're going to do it- make it BroodWar as much as is possible. No automining. No Smart Casting. No MBS. Nothing. Give it the exact, horrible, hexagonal movement. Just replicate Broodwar. I understand that some of this is very hard to do but- without those limitations it isn't Broodwar anymore.
What are you talking about? All of these options exist.
1. No automining - done. 2. No smart casting - done. 3. No MBS - done. 4. Pathing - as close as engine allows.
Just make sure to create a game and select these in the options pane.
I never looked at that menu before game. Thank you very much!!
I will be helping playtest for sure! (On vacation for 1 more day) (never REALLY played BW.)
also, I have to say, I am continuously reminded how awesome our community is. I hope everyone keeps bringing these quality projects, threads, ideas etc, everything. I love it so much.
I need to find a a way to give back more. Maybe ill start a movement to help mappers test their maps.. I know its hard to get melee maps tested let alone UMS
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
irradiate shuts down mass mutas if i recall correctly (lol). also, terrans started building valks with their initial bio army to effectively negate the mutas. so thats one example down
On December 30 2012 08:04 CursOr wrote: I played this once a while back, and all the crossover from SC2 was too frustrating. If you're going to do it- make it BroodWar as much as is possible. No automining. No Smart Casting. No MBS. Nothing. Give it the exact, horrible, hexagonal movement. Just replicate Broodwar. I understand that some of this is very hard to do but- without those limitations it isn't Broodwar anymore.
What are you talking about? All of these options exist.
1. No automining - done. 2. No smart casting - done. 3. No MBS - done. 4. Pathing - as close as engine allows.
Just make sure to create a game and select these in the options pane.
I never looked at that menu before game. Thank you very much!!
Have fun!
I wonder, is it possible to change the UI so that 12 wireframes fit in the UI perfectly?
I think you should should find some pros or semipros to play some games, and add to the main post 2 of the best games. and if its gest casted even better. maybe try to contact NukeTheStars to cast at least 2 games, that would be amazing.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
Actually it would still work, Terran has two air based units with aoe to counter it. One you want regardless of what the enemy is going.
Only thing I really see it breaking is mass army movement and perhaps the usage of lings.
No it wont work, because even if Terrans have the units which could pull it off they need the precognition to build them in sufficient numbers. In any case massive numbers of tightly packed units dont allow for comebacks or mistakes ... you HAVE TO HAVE the right unit composition to counter that and that means scouting. This cant be done that easily for every race as it can be done by Terrans.
The game would be better off with limited unit selection, because it allows for longer and more interesting battles and prevents AoE from becoming too important.
3-4 valks destroy a flock of mutas especially with a bio ball. also, if you commit that much gas on mutas, you have no gas for lurker/hive tech
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
irradiate shuts down mass mutas if i recall correctly (lol). also, terrans started building valks with their initial bio army to effectively negate the mutas. so thats one example down
Not to mention, unless I'm going insane (which is possible) I remember watching a video explaining how after going over 12 units the mutas will auto unstack. (In this mod at least.)
Rules of the game don't have to be super rigid, they can be bent for the sake of balance.
>11 muta can be countered against well (with corsairs/valks/irradiate) but having >12 units per group greatly helps zerg in all other cases. The best pro players cannot send an entire zerg army efficiently so you see lots of "streams" of units across the map, but if you could box, hotkey, and flank with ~75 units (~3 control groups of 25) easily zerg would be much stronger in bw. You can easily macro like 60 lings or a shitton of hydras at a time and it's super hard to actually send them to reinforce an attack (and they form conga line due to dumb ai pathing), but if it was as simple as 1 box and click zerg would be stronger mid/late game.
Zerg armies are kind of clusterfucks late game such it is actually impossible to fully maximise their control due to pathing/inability to box all units at once, but with unlimited hotkey I think people can get much closer such that it would effect balance.
edit- IMO it's more about how many unit's you can box at a time. The problem is if you can see a rally point with 40 units and just grab one half, hotkey, then grab the other half and hotkey--or separating out different unit types by control-clicking the unit in the selected box. 12 unit "boxing" makes the process much much much more repetitive as you get repeats in the control groups and is harder mouse-precision wise. There are various things that discourage actually hotkeying >12 things in one hotkey (such as spider mines, tank splash, storm if you also don't run away with the easier-to-control >12 unit group, etc) but boxing units is what zerg frantically does to control their armies.
On December 30 2012 09:22 N.geNuity wrote: >11 muta can be countered against well (with corsairs/valks/irradiate) but having >12 units per group greatly helps zerg in all other cases. The best pro players cannot send an entire zerg army efficiently so you see lots of "streams" of units across the map, but if you could box, hotkey, and flank with ~75 units (~3 control groups of 25) easily zerg would be much stronger in bw. You can easily macro like 60 lings or a shitton of hydras at a time and it's super hard to actually send them to reinforce an attack (and they form conga line due to dumb ai pathing), but if it was as simple as 1 box and click zerg would be stronger mid/late game.
Zerg armies are kind of clusterfucks late game such it is actually impossible to fully maximise their control due to pathing/inability to box all units at once, but with unlimited hotkey I think people can get much closer such that it would effect balance.
the problem with zerg is that they are limited in their gas. sure you can get 24 mutas and just run around killing the terran. if you can kill the terran iwth 24 mutas, thats great. but if you cannot kill the terran, and the game stabilizes to the next phase (lurker/ling/defiler vs tank/bio/vessel) what is 24 muta gonna do. as stated in previous posts, irradiate murders a stacked muta flock. if you really wan to split 24 mutas just to find the one irradiated muta, be my guest, but ull most likely see ur gas investment go down the drain after 75-150 energy from vessels. that gas dumped means you cannot hold their inevitable bio push.
as for boxing unlimited units per group...how do i even begin lol. the one thing you dont want to do in zvt (zvp less so since you dont need much micro) is to clump ur units together and attack into the enemy. if you ever tried spreading the zerg army in sc2 so that they will attack the enemy in one front efficiently, you know that you need to micro so much more to make sure they dont clump up. clumping units into 1 hotkey would win you games against low level players, but at the mid-high level (even just on iccup like c+ or above) people would laugh at you for doing such thing
I agreed about mutas. Anyways, I'm not saying zergs would use 1 hotkey, but efficiently and rapidly making 3-4 "chunks" is greatly beneficial. Which if you have 80 units that changes to a 1a2a3a4a instead of a clusterfuck of 7-8 hotkeys or frantic boxing. And you see evidence of that in sc2, as big ling/baneling attacks is obviously possible due to ai pathing and being able to box 50 lings at a time.
you do want your army to clump together in 2-3 chunks midgame vs terran as it is extremely common you want to flank with ~12-15 lurkers and maybe 40-50 lings sandwich the marine medic and ~2-3 tank and 1 vessel army. And it depends on the map, but zvp you'll often have 50-80 units of a combination of hydra/ling midgame.
zerg with 3-4 clumps is much much much stronger than the streamline type attacks that bw forces due to response times, pathing, and limited factors of boxing and hotkeying.
On December 30 2012 09:22 N.geNuity wrote: >11 muta can be countered against well (with corsairs/valks/irradiate) but having >12 units per group greatly helps zerg in all other cases. The best pro players cannot send an entire zerg army efficiently so you see lots of "streams" of units across the map, but if you could box, hotkey, and flank with ~75 units (~3 control groups of 25) easily zerg would be much stronger in bw. You can easily macro like 60 lings or a shitton of hydras at a time and it's super hard to actually send them to reinforce an attack (and they form conga line due to dumb ai pathing), but if it was as simple as 1 box and click zerg would be stronger mid/late game.
Zerg armies are kind of clusterfucks late game such it is actually impossible to fully maximise their control due to pathing/inability to box all units at once, but with unlimited hotkey I think people can get much closer such that it would effect balance.
the problem with zerg is that they are limited in their gas. sure you can get 24 mutas and just run around killing the terran. if you can kill the terran iwth 24 mutas, thats great. but if you cannot kill the terran, and the game stabilizes to the next phase (lurker/ling/defiler vs tank/bio/vessel) what is 24 muta gonna do. as stated in previous posts, irradiate murders a stacked muta flock. if you really wan to split 24 mutas just to find the one irradiated muta, be my guest, but ull most likely see ur gas investment go down the drain after 75-150 energy from vessels. that gas dumped means you cannot hold their inevitable bio push.
as for boxing unlimited units per group...how do i even begin lol. the one thing you dont want to do in zvt (zvp less so since you dont need much micro) is to clump ur units together and attack into the enemy. if you ever tried spreading the zerg army in sc2 so that they will attack the enemy in one front efficiently, you know that you need to micro so much more to make sure they dont clump up. clumping units into 1 hotkey would win you games against low level players, but at the mid-high level (even just on iccup like c+ or above) people would laugh at you for doing such thing
We rarely see that kind of muta investment in ZvT so it's hard to imagine how to transition. If the zerg somehow managaes to reach that number however why not invest in a heavy amount of scourge instead of tech switch?
Imagine the hype if Day9 done a daily on this mod, him playing vs Artosis or someone would generate so much interest and help Maverck's efforts go more noticed.
It seems like if you click really fast you can give orders to 12+ units in one time even with the bw restriction on. Also fighting spirit seems a bit off but maybe that is just me (i'm more used to old school maps). Is it normal you can wall the natural with just 1 rax 1 supply ?
On December 30 2012 09:55 N.geNuity wrote: I agreed about mutas. Anyways, I'm not saying zergs would use 1 hotkey, but efficiently and rapidly making 3-4 "chunks" is greatly beneficial. Which if you have 80 units that changes to a 1a2a3a4a instead of a clusterfuck of 7-8 hotkeys or frantic boxing. And you see evidence of that in sc2, as big ling/baneling attacks is obviously possible due to ai pathing and being able to box 50 lings at a time.
you do want your army to clump together in 2-3 chunks midgame vs terran as it is extremely common you want to flank with ~12-15 lurkers and maybe 40-50 lings sandwich the marine medic and ~2-3 tank and 1 vessel army. And it depends on the map, but zvp you'll often have 50-80 units of a combination of hydra/ling midgame.
zerg with 3-4 clumps is much much much stronger than the streamline type attacks that bw forces due to response times, pathing, and limited factors of boxing and hotkeying.
ye zvp, you can just a-move ur entire army into toss (i think this was even mentioned by a pro player in hyungjoon turning pro series). in my past experience, you generally want to flank the terran with the largest possible area since lings die so fast to rines (maybe clump up lurkers tho just so you have a back line)
On December 30 2012 10:06 mau5mat wrote: Imagine the hype if Day9 done a daily on this mod, him playing vs Artosis or someone would generate so much interest and help Maverck's efforts go more noticed.
I'm actually really surprised big name streamers arn't more interested in SC2BW, Starbow or OneGoal.
On December 30 2012 10:06 mau5mat wrote: Imagine the hype if Day9 done a daily on this mod, him playing vs Artosis or someone would generate so much interest and help Maverck's efforts go more noticed.
There was a Funday Monday on the mod. It was a year and a half ago, I think it would be good to do another one. I think tanks were doing crazy damage for some reason but the mod has been fixed since.
is it possible to make the default option in joining public games at least have unlimited selection off? joining a game because i cant find any players only to have the same old zerg spamming 50000 of the same unit and winning is annoying.
Just tried out a few games, idk if anyone else is getting this but I can't seem to make overlords properly. Sometimes when I make overlords, invisible larva eggs appear (with health bar above it but not increasing) and i can't click anything underneath the healthbar. It goes away after a little bit but it scams me of my overlord that I ordered!!! That's probably the only big bug I can find. Hydras still seem to move a bit too fast or maybe their AI is just better.
On December 30 2012 15:28 Jemah wrote: Just tried out a few games, idk if anyone else is getting this but I can't seem to make overlords properly. Sometimes when I make overlords, invisible larva eggs appear (with health bar above it but not increasing) and i can't click anything underneath the healthbar. It goes away after a little bit but it scams me of my overlord that I ordered!!! That's probably the only big bug I can find. Hydras still seem to move a bit too fast or maybe their AI is just better.
just play without bw settings for now until i fix it.
On December 30 2012 10:06 mau5mat wrote: Imagine the hype if Day9 done a daily on this mod, him playing vs Artosis or someone would generate so much interest and help Maverck's efforts go more noticed.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
Actually it would still work, Terran has two air based units with aoe to counter it. One you want regardless of what the enemy is going.
Only thing I really see it breaking is mass army movement and perhaps the usage of lings.
No it wont work, because even if Terrans have the units which could pull it off they need the precognition to build them in sufficient numbers. In any case massive numbers of tightly packed units dont allow for comebacks or mistakes ... you HAVE TO HAVE the right unit composition to counter that and that means scouting. This cant be done that easily for every race as it can be done by Terrans.
The game would be better off with limited unit selection, because it allows for longer and more interesting battles and prevents AoE from becoming too important.
3-4 valks destroy a flock of mutas especially with a bio ball. also, if you commit that much gas on mutas, you have no gas for lurker/hive tech
Aaand what shuts down the bioball? With Medics you have REALLY STRONG infantry to fight about anything, which only Lurkers can probably fight efficiently enough, but those are static and not able to deal with HUGE numbers fast enough. The DEATHBALL is a terrible thing in SC2, why should it be less bad in BW? Only because people say that "the Mutalisk deathball can be shut down easily" doesnt mean there is no other form of deathball.
Limited unit selection is a MUST HAVE or it wont matter how Broodwarish the mod is. In addition to this there are a few more "restrictions" which are necessary to make the game work, things like "no smart cast" for example. The only really acceptable things IMO are automine for workers rallied onto a mineral patch and autorepair.
On December 29 2012 13:26 Lightswarm wrote: The main thing from bw to sc2 transition rly boils down to stuff like being able to comeback from behind. There is nothing remotely like a flock of mutas harassing a bio terran back from the push or holding onto 3 base as zerg against a super Ggro terran using dark swarm and lurkers. Im sure everyone loved the visual upgrade and no one would really complain about unlimited unit/building selection in order to help new players come in.
Unlimitted building / unit selection would broke many things for BW. You listed Muta harass One thing that made it balanced is that you can't have more than 11 muta ( + 1 Overlord for the micro trick ) at once. 25 Muta doing this kind of harass would just wreck Terran. And that's only one example
Actually it would still work, Terran has two air based units with aoe to counter it. One you want regardless of what the enemy is going.
Only thing I really see it breaking is mass army movement and perhaps the usage of lings.
No it wont work, because even if Terrans have the units which could pull it off they need the precognition to build them in sufficient numbers. In any case massive numbers of tightly packed units dont allow for comebacks or mistakes ... you HAVE TO HAVE the right unit composition to counter that and that means scouting. This cant be done that easily for every race as it can be done by Terrans.
The game would be better off with limited unit selection, because it allows for longer and more interesting battles and prevents AoE from becoming too important.
3-4 valks destroy a flock of mutas especially with a bio ball. also, if you commit that much gas on mutas, you have no gas for lurker/hive tech
Aaand what shuts down the bioball? With Medics you have REALLY STRONG infantry to fight about anything, which only Lurkers can probably fight efficiently enough, but those are static and not able to deal with HUGE numbers fast enough. The DEATHBALL is a terrible thing in SC2, why should it be less bad in BW? Only because people say that "the Mutalisk deathball can be shut down easily" doesnt mean there is no other form of deathball.
Limited unit selection is a MUST HAVE or it wont matter how Broodwarish the mod is. In addition to this there are a few more "restrictions" which are necessary to make the game work, things like "no smart cast" for example. The only really acceptable things IMO are automine for workers rallied onto a mineral patch and autorepair.
dark swarm? did you even watch bw zvt?
On December 30 2012 19:53 GoonFFS wrote: lol, sc2bw.. this whole 'but bw was more fun' thing needs to stop
Thank you from the bottom of my soul. I just have one question/suggestion : Is it possible to use SC2 shortcuts ? having to press "P" for probes reminds me old nightmares
On December 31 2012 01:28 Diks wrote: Thank you from the bottom of my soul. I just have one question/suggestion : Is it possible to use SC2 shortcuts ? having to press "P" for probes reminds me old nightmares
whilst being inside the mod, press pause and go to keybind options, you can now adjust your broodwar hotkeys. I prefer to have mine the brood war way for fair competitive play.
On December 31 2012 01:28 Diks wrote: Thank you from the bottom of my soul. I just have one question/suggestion : Is it possible to use SC2 shortcuts ? having to press "P" for probes reminds me old nightmares
something i used to have. i'll re-implement it soonish. when i get time.
On December 31 2012 04:31 Wolfswood wrote: non-customizable hotkeys are just as much a part of bw as (lack of) auto-mining, MBS, etc.
having to hit "P" for probes and pylons is one of the defining characteristics of protoss macro
ye but its one of those rly unnecessary characteristes. if blizzard make probes "e" in bw, it doesnt rly change how the protoss is played overall. just opens up accessibility to really new people
I never played BW and I have been playing SC2 since release. With that said I have to say that this mod is so good. The game feels so much better, the pacing the interaction with units. This is what blizzard should have created when they made SC2. Thanks
I never played BW and I have been playing SC2 since release. With that said I have to say that this mod is so good. The game feels so much better, the pacing the interaction with units. This is what blizzard should have created when they made SC2. Thanks
Since you have 1 post I feel you are a disguised BW fanboy...
On December 31 2012 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: Have these maps been uploaded to hots beta servers?
just speculating since i dont have a beta, but i doubt uploading it to hots is a good idea. the point of the beta is to test out the expansion gameplay. it kind of defeats the purpose if people are gonna play a mod that they can play on WoL
On December 31 2012 04:31 Wolfswood wrote: non-customizable hotkeys are just as much a part of bw as (lack of) auto-mining, MBS, etc.
having to hit "P" for probes and pylons is one of the defining characteristics of protoss macro
ye but its one of those rly unnecessary characteristes. if blizzard make probes "e" in bw, it doesnt rly change how the protoss is played overall. just opens up accessibility to really new people
Also, I always worry unnatural hand movements can increase the odds of carpel tunnel and the like, so I can never support hotkey setups that have you stretching your hand all over the keyboard.
On December 31 2012 04:31 Wolfswood wrote: non-customizable hotkeys are just as much a part of bw as (lack of) auto-mining, MBS, etc.
having to hit "P" for probes and pylons is one of the defining characteristics of protoss macro
ye but its one of those rly unnecessary characteristes. if blizzard make probes "e" in bw, it doesnt rly change how the protoss is played overall. just opens up accessibility to really new people
Also, I always worry unnatural hand movements can increase the odds of carpel tunnel and the like, so I can never support hotkey setups that have you stretching your hand all over the keyboard.
anything that did not affect the core gameplay should be improved in my opinion (hotkeys, buggy pathing), but stuff like scourge ai or glitching over semi-walls should be left in the game.
Great post, great map! Amazing work from the community is always something I love to see; you make us all look good :D I hope that this demonstrates to people that we can cease to lay blame on Blizzard for a perceived lack of popularity and success. Look at the amazing things we can do with this engine, with this game. It's pretty incredible.
I never played BW and I have been playing SC2 since release. With that said I have to say that this mod is so good. The game feels so much better, the pacing the interaction with units. This is what blizzard should have created when they made SC2. Thanks
Since you have 1 post I feel you are a disguised BW fanboy...
Doesn't take a fanboy to agree with what he said. Everyone knows SC2 is inferior to BW.
This deserves so much more attention than it has. This is amazing. Thanks for your hardwork. Obviously there are bugs but it resembles SCBW so much that I got chills just watching the pathing.
On December 31 2012 09:47 MaRCsoN wrote: Great post, great map! Amazing work from the community is always something I love to see; you make us all look good :D I hope that this demonstrates to people that we can cease to lay blame on Blizzard for a perceived lack of popularity and success. Look at the amazing things we can do with this engine, with this game. It's pretty incredible.
I've said it before but I will say it again, Blizzard's SC2 engine is AMAZING. From a programming point of view, its features are really something, the programmers did an amazing job there, hats off.
However when people blame Blizzard, they don't blame the programmers or the quality of the game engine, but the designer of the game. With such a great work, SC2 deserved to be a better game than it currently is. Everything on SC2 is really great, with the exception of the Battle.net design and the SC2 units design. I don't know who to blame for the horrible Bnet, but Dustin Browder is very likely to be the major problem of SC2 units design.
He is obviously trying to do the best for SC2, he has the burden to make SC2 better than BW, and that's quite a heavy one, but he is, in my opinion, failing very bad at it.
I never played BW and I have been playing SC2 since release. With that said I have to say that this mod is so good. The game feels so much better, the pacing the interaction with units. This is what blizzard should have created when they made SC2. Thanks
Since you have 1 post I feel you are a disguised BW fanboy...
Doesn't take a fanboy to agree with what he said. Everyone knows SC2 is inferior to BW.
I never played BW and I have been playing SC2 since release. With that said I have to say that this mod is so good. The game feels so much better, the pacing the interaction with units. This is what blizzard should have created when they made SC2. Thanks
Since you have 1 post I feel you are a disguised BW fanboy...
Doesn't take a fanboy to agree with what he said. Everyone knows SC2 is inferior to BW.
That looks like opinion masquerading as fact.
most people who had experience with competitive brood war would agree that sc2 is inferior to bw
Not sure if this has been fixed yet, but currently spider mines hit units in dropships, damaging a single unit inside the dropship (at least for tanks/Goliaths this was true)
Today I played a game where my reaver could not attack units on the low ground. The blue ball would come out and be like "nah I'm on break," then proceeded to just disappear into the rocks. Also, I believe when I sent my dt towards the enemy mech army, the spidermines killed it without even having detection.
On December 31 2012 11:18 envyYaegz wrote: Today I played a game where my reaver could not attack units on the low ground. The blue ball would come out and be like "nah I'm on break," then proceeded to just disappear into the rocks. Also, I believe when I sent my dt towards the enemy mech army, the spidermines killed it without even having detection.
Reavers have dumb scarabs on purpose and spidermines hits invisible units.
On December 31 2012 11:18 envyYaegz wrote: Today I played a game where my reaver could not attack units on the low ground. The blue ball would come out and be like "nah I'm on break," then proceeded to just disappear into the rocks. Also, I believe when I sent my dt towards the enemy mech army, the spidermines killed it without even having detection.
reaver scarabs are famous for having buggy pathing and often not finding the target and just dissapear. invisible units can trigger spider mines even when undetected.
so both are working as intended, I hope this solves your problem.
On December 31 2012 11:10 ExO_ wrote: Not sure if this has been fixed yet, but currently spider mines hit units in dropships, damaging a single unit inside the dropship (at least for tanks/Goliaths this was true)
haha thats a good one. i remember a very long time ago i had a bug where medics could heal while inside the dropship. was like a super medivac.
everything is good about the units. BUT i will really really prefer sc2 hotkeys and being about to group buildings together. No smart casting is fine, but selecting buildings individually seems too much of an EXTRA add-on mechanical challenge on purpose when you can put your APM somewhere else.
On December 31 2012 11:33 Zaurus wrote: everything is good about the units. BUT i will really really prefer sc2 hotkeys and being about to group buildings together. No smart casting is fine, but selecting buildings individually seems too much of an EXTRA add-on mechanical challenge on purpose when you can put your APM somewhere else.
unit selection limit, multible building selection and smart casting are each individualy toggle-able in the game lobby options.
I never played BW and I have been playing SC2 since release. With that said I have to say that this mod is so good. The game feels so much better, the pacing the interaction with units. This is what blizzard should have created when they made SC2. Thanks
Since you have 1 post I feel you are a disguised BW fanboy...
Doesn't take a fanboy to agree with what he said. Everyone knows SC2 is inferior to BW.
That looks like opinion masquerading as fact.
the majority of people who have played both bw and sc2 will say bw is the superior game. those who have only played 1 game or the other cannot comment because they are obviously biased
On December 27 2012 09:26 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: you cant turn off automine, smart casting or MBS. It's not BW until you disable the sc2 UI.
Smart casting can be disabled easily.
Some spells (like stimpack) already have smart casting disabled.
In the abilities tab (I forgot which), just uncheck "Best Unit" (which is for smart casting).
(There is another field called "Smart" in the abilities tab, but that's actually not smart casting, the "Best Unit" checkbox is the one that determines if it smart casts or not.)
MBS might be able to be removed via a trigger that constantly checks what the player has in their selection group (if there are multiple structures, have the trigger force the player to select one).
Though that might lead to odd problems (like if you accidentally do a select box on a group of structures).
Finally, automining isn't too big of a deal honestly. The real stuff is the mechanics.
Automining is one of those pointless click fast mechanics.
Some compare WC2 to BW and say WC2 is a harder game because you had to fight the UI more.
However, someone pointed out that while WC2 was harder (like there were no unit queuing), most of the APM you spent doing things on WC2 was just mindless tasks that most people can learn easily.
In BW, it would take years of doing things like muta micro, move shotting, etc to do it perfectly (compared to WC2 where it was mostly about how fast you clicked rather than how precised and how skillful are your clicks).
Automining was more of those "mindless clicking" type tasks, which is why it doesn't need to be required.
MBS to an extent is to IMO but it's not as bad as automining and it's really impressive to see someone like Flash producing things off of like 10 or more factories.
I guess it's weird in a way since technically, the lack of MBS would just be the mindless clicking category (which I am against) but still, it's still impressive and it feels more rewarding and fun to do than just putting your workers on minerals every time they pop.
So, the reason why automining should stay in but MBS could potentially be dropped is because the lack of MBS feels fun and is more impressive to watch in games than someone putting their workers on minerals.
________________________
Besides that, lets talk about the general game of BW vs SC2.
One of the main things BW (and WC3) has over SC2 is that the game isn't about massing a big death ball with fights ending in seconds.
BW, the fights were gradual and all over the place (thanks to pathing and how units were generally weaker and less stronger in damage dealing than their SC2 counterpart).
This meant games were less luck based.
Same with WC3 (which is an easier, in terms of mechanics and UI) game to play.
The top players in WC3 are really consistent (the same people own in WC3) despite it being a "mechanically easier" game than both SC2 and BW.
The main reason is that the game is more of a gradual game (like BW too).
BW was hard to play mechanical but at the same time, you didn't lose the entire game because your clump of marines were caught out of position one time.
BW is like playing a boxing match and playing chess at the same time (with blindfolds with small holes, there's your fog of war >.>).
Same with WC3.
SC2 is, instead of boxing gloves and doing this long epic drawn out fight... you both have light sabers, and are both playing chess at the same time, and you're both blindfolded (well, partially, there is still some small pinholes to help you see, but your field of vision is only like 20-30 degrees.... again this is the fog of war analogy >.>).
Light sabers mean one wrong move (like my deathball were caught out of position once!) means you lose.
(Yeah, it's a weird analogy.)
That's my problem with SC2 (currently). It's too much about just one battle instead of drawn out multiple battles.
The fancy tricks you could do in BW is a definitely a bonus though.
I am also one of those people who say BW is a better game than SC2 (not that I don't like SC2).
The better things of BW:
1. More long, gradual, drawn out fights. Less randomness, less "oh no, my units were caught out of position once, I lost".
That's why there are more consistent top players in BW and WC3 compared to SC2. SC2 right now is really competitive but even in the early days of SC2 (when it was mostly just the GSL), there were lots of players who failed to stay consistent.
I mean in the Korean scene alone, there is no player that achieved the same consistency as the top BW players or top WC3. The only player close to do so is probably MVP.
SC2 is definitely large right now, (especially after KeSPA players joining in), it is definitely more competitive now than it was in BW. However, the
2. The Reaver - Easily one of the best and unique units of any both Starcraft games. Now, I'm not some BW elitist that says every BW unit is better than their SC2 counterpart. I like the Swarm Host over the Lurker (at least in terms of SC2 gameplay). (I like that the Swarm Host is a more gradual type of unit than the Lurker, this helps with the whole problem I mentioned above.)
The Reaver had a ton of potential in SC2. If they gave it hold fire and weapons free (the abilities ghosts have that allow ghosts to disable/enable auto attacking, so you can manually attack instead of having it auto attack), added shuttle micro to Warp Prism (where you can keep the shuttle at top speed even while picking up units), etc.
The Reaver has huge potential. Scarabs were somewhat random but you could (if they added hold fire ability to Reaver) manually aim where you want to fire the Scarabs. Scarabs have pathing that can be blocked by ground units, this means that you have to aim for the right unit (like, if you aim for the marine in the back of a group of marines, the scarab might be blocked by the marines in the front and the player might micro away, so you have to aim carefully).
The best part about the Reaver is the fact that "both" players micro. It's fun to watch Reavers. As the Reaver user, you have to micro your shuttle and aim your scarabs at the right place.
As the person against the Reaver, you have to try to split up your units or move your unit (with the scarab homing in) away from your group.
Much better than the Colossus... and it doesn't overlap with Colossus (like the Tempest and Carrier, both Reaver and Colossus could be in).
So yeah, those are my main two reasons BW is better than SC2 - BW has the reaver and it has more gradual and long drawn out fights, less randomness and less "1 second battles that decide the entire game". This means the better player usually wins, games are more fun to watch, and it's less luck based.
When you have games, where all that happens is both players macro up, then they go head to head in one battle, then it ends... it ends up bad gameplay IMO. In BW and WC3, that was almost impossible. *Even if you had a maxed out army vs maxed out army, the fight would have lasted a long time and this gave time for players to micro and do fancy things in the game.
*What I mean is, in most cases, (due to the path finding), units wouldn't be at the same place at once. So instead of all the units being there at once, the maxed out army would be all over the place. Plus again, units in BW do less damage and die a bit slower than their SC2 counterpart (with some exceptions like marines with stim or carriers in BW, which do more damage than their SC2 counterpart). Most of SC2's new units (marauders, banelings, colossus) and a lot of old units like archons and hydralisk all do a ton more damage than their BW counterpart (plus the clumping doesn't help).
In SC2, you have no time to do fancy micro tricks or anything. Maxed out army vs army is usually the other player is being campy and avoiding the fight, or the armies clash and everything melts in seconds. BW and WC3 had waves of enemies that players can send, battles happened everywhere.
All 3 of those can be disabled in the game lobby. Maverick has already implemented those customisations into the game. To be able to set those, please make sure you CREATE the game, not join. There will be 3 individual settings (unlimited selection, smart cast, auto-mine) available to set either to on (SC2) or off (BW).
that was a beautiful teaser video man i really wish it said "based on a true story" instead of "based on a real game" what piece was that? beautiful music too
On December 31 2012 11:48 LarJarsE wrote: SC2BW TOURNAMENTS ASAP PLZ STREAMED LIVE AND VODS.
This, I hope SC2BW becomes mainstream so I have a reason to play SC2. lol T_T
Have the fish guys see this yet?
Uhh... no, chances are they haven't, i'll have to show some people, I haven't played this SC2BW since it was released, I guess it could be a lot better now. Back then it was still better and more fun than SC2, i'm sure now it is awesome, haven't seen much of it recently. Will check out it out more thoroughly!
EDIT : How is the current balance state of SC2BW right now? Pretty balanced for all races and matchups? Back when I tried it, Protoss seemed way too powerful.
On December 31 2012 11:48 LarJarsE wrote: SC2BW TOURNAMENTS ASAP PLZ STREAMED LIVE AND VODS.
This, I hope SC2BW becomes mainstream so I have a reason to play SC2. lol T_T
Have the fish guys see this yet?
Uhh... no, chances are they haven't, i'll have to show some people, I haven't played this SC2BW since it was released, I guess it could be a lot better now. Back then it was still better and more fun than SC2, i'm sure now it is awesome, haven't seen much of it recently. Will check out it out more thoroughly!
EDIT : How is the current balance state of SC2BW right now? Pretty balanced for all races and matchups? Back when I tried it, Protoss seemed way too powerful.
Well, the purpose of this mod is "just" to recreate BW in the SC2 engine, so balance should theoretically be the same as BW (which is considered as balanced as any game of its type can get). Of course, it is still in development, so things are still being tweaked which may make things slightly easier for one race or the other, but overall it is still BW. Nevertheless, in an attempt to address your question despite the above, the races and matchups are pretty much balanced just from the games themselves. Of course, we have no way to really compare player skill level, so take that statement how you will. What you really should be asking is how close the mod is to being a replica of BW... scarily close :D (minus some aesthetics)
Anyway, you should just play the game~ Balanced or not, it is still much fun.
On December 31 2012 11:48 LarJarsE wrote: SC2BW TOURNAMENTS ASAP PLZ STREAMED LIVE AND VODS.
This, I hope SC2BW becomes mainstream so I have a reason to play SC2. lol T_T
Have the fish guys see this yet?
Uhh... no, chances are they haven't, i'll have to show some people, I haven't played this SC2BW since it was released, I guess it could be a lot better now. Back then it was still better and more fun than SC2, i'm sure now it is awesome, haven't seen much of it recently. Will check out it out more thoroughly!
EDIT : How is the current balance state of SC2BW right now? Pretty balanced for all races and matchups? Back when I tried it, Protoss seemed way too powerful.
Balance wise im not sure, it seems fine. everyone complains about everything right now so im not touching anything until a clear pattern appears. but even then. im hesitant to change anything. the only concern i share with people right now is large amounts of medic/marine are incredibly powerful. i've hampered them a little by making stutter step difficult but yea.
i just want to collect ALOT of data on these types of things however before i even think about making a change.
On December 31 2012 11:48 LarJarsE wrote: SC2BW TOURNAMENTS ASAP PLZ STREAMED LIVE AND VODS.
This, I hope SC2BW becomes mainstream so I have a reason to play SC2. lol T_T
Have the fish guys see this yet?
Uhh... no, chances are they haven't, i'll have to show some people, I haven't played this SC2BW since it was released, I guess it could be a lot better now. Back then it was still better and more fun than SC2, i'm sure now it is awesome, haven't seen much of it recently. Will check out it out more thoroughly!
EDIT : How is the current balance state of SC2BW right now? Pretty balanced for all races and matchups? Back when I tried it, Protoss seemed way too powerful.
Balance wise im not sure, it seems fine. everyone complains about everything right now so im not touching anything until a clear pattern appears. but even then. im hesitant to change anything. the only concern i share with people right now is large amounts of medic/marine are incredibly powerful. i've hampered them a little by making stutter step difficult but yea.
i just want to collect ALOT of data on these types of things however before i even think about making a change.
Ironically enough that sounds exactly like how Blizzard balances there games LOL. j / k Good luck I can't wait to see final product
On December 31 2012 11:18 envyYaegz wrote: Today I played a game where my reaver could not attack units on the low ground. The blue ball would come out and be like "nah I'm on break," then proceeded to just disappear into the rocks. Also, I believe when I sent my dt towards the enemy mech army, the spidermines killed it without even having detection.
On December 31 2012 11:18 envyYaegz wrote: Today I played a game where my reaver could not attack units on the low ground. The blue ball would come out and be like "nah I'm on break," then proceeded to just disappear into the rocks. Also, I believe when I sent my dt towards the enemy mech army, the spidermines killed it without even having detection.
Spider mines always attacked cloaked ground units. It uses motion sensors so anything that moves gets hit.
Also, reapers could never attack units on low/high ground dude. The scarab needs clear pathing for it to reach it's enemy. It's like firing another unit that kamikaze's into the enemy's. It walks and needs pathing.
On December 31 2012 11:33 Zaurus wrote: everything is good about the units. BUT i will really really prefer sc2 hotkeys and being about to group buildings together. No smart casting is fine, but selecting buildings individually seems too much of an EXTRA add-on mechanical challenge on purpose when you can put your APM somewhere else.
Multi-Building-Selection is one of the reason why there are too many units on the battlefield in SC2. This - plus the super tight movement and the unlimited unit selection - is ONE of the reasons for the existence of the deathball. It should be taken out of the game or at least restricted to a low number like 3 or so.
In a game like SC2 - where everything "tedious" is made easily manageable by 1 button - with super tight clumps of units you simply CANT HAVE exciting AoE abilities like the high damage Reaver attack. They would be totally unfair. Thus it is in the interest of exciting abilities that you should ask for FEWER UNITS ON THE BATTLEFIELD and NOT SO EASY TO CONTROL UNIT GROUPS. So stop this nonsense about "wasting APM on dumb stuff", because it is a necessary thing to make the attacker work hard for his victory by making the units not easy to control. Forcing players to single-select their production facilities will just drain some of the APM in an easy way compared to implementing a worse movement system than BW ever had for example ... just to keep the attacker working hard as well.
Just think about the terrible Banelings in SC2 ... the attacker has to just "a-move" and the defender has to frantically split his Marines. So all the work lies with the defender and this is bad design. BW had the exact opposite due to the APM required to control the units AND several groups of units AND all the production facilities.
On December 31 2012 17:04 Rabiator wrote:Just think about the terrible Banelings in SC2 ... the attacker has to just "a-move" and the defender has to frantically split his Marines. So all the work lies with the defender and this is bad design. BW had the exact opposite due to the APM required to control the units AND several groups of units AND all the production facilities.
This is such a daft statement.
A good Zerg player won't just a-move their Banelings, they have to split their Banelings to ensure they don't all die to splash damage from Siege Tanks (if Siege Tanks are present), they have to make sure to target fire their Banelings onto clumps of Marines so that they're as cost-effective as possible, and they have to make sure that their Banelings don't explode on Siege Tanks/Marauders since that's horribly cost inefficient.
To say that Banelings are an a-move unit shows that you have a horrible understanding of SC2.
Played a few games of this and so far its amazing, quite replicating the beauty of BW. Some things ive noticed is that siege tanks splash dmg doesnt show, so u dont really see it graphically that u are being hit. And defensive matrix doesnt seem to work.
On December 31 2012 17:04 Rabiator wrote:Just think about the terrible Banelings in SC2 ... the attacker has to just "a-move" and the defender has to frantically split his Marines. So all the work lies with the defender and this is bad design. BW had the exact opposite due to the APM required to control the units AND several groups of units AND all the production facilities.
This is such a daft statement.
A good Zerg player won't just a-move their Banelings, they have to split their Banelings to ensure they don't all die to splash damage from Siege Tanks (if Siege Tanks are present), they have to make sure to target fire their Banelings onto clumps of Marines so that they're as cost-effective as possible, and they have to make sure that their Banelings don't explode on Siege Tanks/Marauders since that's horribly cost inefficient.
To say that Banelings are an a-move unit shows that you have a horrible understanding of SC2.
You mean right click on marines
Actually it SHOULD be the defender's responsibility if they're going pure marines against a unit that's supposed to counter them. That's like saying if I zergling rush you it's such a travesty because you HAVE to micro your workers to get out even against my lings.
i started playing sc bw 1 year ago because sc2 bored me to hell, now im coming back to sc2 ... the broodwar mod is really great, outmultitasking your opponent, macro - micro is rewarding, getting owned by amazing muta control ; too hi dustin browder!
still hard to find on eu, f 5 >> create and search for sc2 bw thats the only way or join channel SC2BW
No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
I think daniri means the thread being in the sc2 general section, since it really isn't sc2 general.
I bet sea would be willing to play a showmatch on this, but I can't think of an opponent who comes close to being his equal to give a good show ^.^ In particular that would maybe introduce some afreeca viewers.
On December 31 2012 17:04 Rabiator wrote:Just think about the terrible Banelings in SC2 ... the attacker has to just "a-move" and the defender has to frantically split his Marines. So all the work lies with the defender and this is bad design. BW had the exact opposite due to the APM required to control the units AND several groups of units AND all the production facilities.
This is such a daft statement.
A good Zerg player won't just a-move their Banelings, they have to split their Banelings to ensure they don't all die to splash damage from Siege Tanks (if Siege Tanks are present), they have to make sure to target fire their Banelings onto clumps of Marines so that they're as cost-effective as possible, and they have to make sure that their Banelings don't explode on Siege Tanks/Marauders since that's horribly cost inefficient.
To say that Banelings are an a-move unit shows that you have a horrible understanding of SC2.
You mean right click on marines
Actually it SHOULD be the defender's responsibility if they're going pure marines against a unit that's supposed to counter them. That's like saying if I zergling rush you it's such a travesty because you HAVE to micro your workers to get out even against my lings.
Actually with a ling rush (4/6 pool), both the Zerg and his opponent have to micro appropriately. The Zerg has a slight advantage due to quality of units, but overall both players have to invest a similar amount of effort and it's not even close to the Banelings vs any light unit scenario.
The Baneling example only demonstrates the flaws of units straight up "countering" one another. A unit in and of itself should confer only a very slight strategic advantage over an inferior composition, with units designed in a way that the player can build onto that small advantage OR fail to utilize the advantage completely depending on how good/bad his control is relative to his opponent's.
On December 31 2012 17:04 Rabiator wrote:Just think about the terrible Banelings in SC2 ... the attacker has to just "a-move" and the defender has to frantically split his Marines. So all the work lies with the defender and this is bad design. BW had the exact opposite due to the APM required to control the units AND several groups of units AND all the production facilities.
This is such a daft statement.
A good Zerg player won't just a-move their Banelings, they have to split their Banelings to ensure they don't all die to splash damage from Siege Tanks (if Siege Tanks are present), they have to make sure to target fire their Banelings onto clumps of Marines so that they're as cost-effective as possible, and they have to make sure that their Banelings don't explode on Siege Tanks/Marauders since that's horribly cost inefficient.
To say that Banelings are an a-move unit shows that you have a horrible understanding of SC2.
The work which the defender has to do is "frantic rearrangement of his entire army into different spots" and the work which the attacker has to put into it is "leisurely sending his 3-4 groups of Banelings (you did remember to split them up beforehand, right?) to different areas of the battlefield on an a-move". That difference should be easy to see and if you are the kind of "APM spammer" on the attack then you are putting more work into it than you actually need to.
APM should be used to push against the resistance of the unit / pathing to squeeze out a little extra 5-10% efficiency and not as a "you didnt look and babysit your units so you are dead now" method. That second SC2 version of doing things is not fun at all.
On December 31 2012 17:04 Rabiator wrote:Just think about the terrible Banelings in SC2 ... the attacker has to just "a-move" and the defender has to frantically split his Marines. So all the work lies with the defender and this is bad design. BW had the exact opposite due to the APM required to control the units AND several groups of units AND all the production facilities.
This is such a daft statement.
A good Zerg player won't just a-move their Banelings, they have to split their Banelings to ensure they don't all die to splash damage from Siege Tanks (if Siege Tanks are present), they have to make sure to target fire their Banelings onto clumps of Marines so that they're as cost-effective as possible, and they have to make sure that their Banelings don't explode on Siege Tanks/Marauders since that's horribly cost inefficient.
To say that Banelings are an a-move unit shows that you have a horrible understanding of SC2.
You mean right click on marines
Actually it SHOULD be the defender's responsibility if they're going pure marines against a unit that's supposed to counter them. That's like saying if I zergling rush you it's such a travesty because you HAVE to micro your workers to get out even against my lings.
Actually with a ling rush (4/6 pool), both the Zerg and his opponent have to micro appropriately. The Zerg has a slight advantage due to quality of units, but overall both players have to invest a similar amount of effort and it's not even close to the Banelings vs any light unit scenario.
The Baneling example only demonstrates the flaws of units straight up "countering" one another. A unit in and of itself should confer only a very slight strategic advantage over an inferior composition, with units designed in a way that the player can build onto that small advantage OR fail to utilize the advantage completely depending on how good/bad his control is relative to his opponent's.
Lurkers vs zealots would beg to differ. You really can't do much against a decent lurker field even if you have multiple control groups of zealots and split them up nicely.
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
There is a thread for the mod in the custom map section already.
I imagine this thread is here at least partially so that more people notice it.
Dangthatsright probably hit the nail on the head: the mod needed a little more publicity. We at OneGoal may do something similar if we gain a little bit more of a substantial following. Publicity is the business, my friend
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
There is a thread for the mod in the custom map section already.
Yeah, I know. So why is it being discussed here where it doesn't belong? If it's about visibility, why aren't OneGoal or Starbow or Photon Cycles given the same privilege?
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
There is a thread for the mod in the custom map section already.
Yeah, I know. So why is it being discussed here where it doesn't belong? If it's about visibility, why aren't OneGoal or Starbow or Photon Cycles given the same privilege?
Hm, this question has already been asked and answered several times already:
Well, even disregarding the SC2BW part of LaLuSh's post, it still includes informative and interesting information on different aspects of SC2. That is plenty enough reason to put it in the SC2 General section.
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
There is a thread for the mod in the custom map section already.
Yeah, I know. So why is it being discussed here where it doesn't belong? If it's about visibility, why aren't OneGoal or Starbow or Photon Cycles given the same privilege?
Hm, this question has already been asked and answered several times already:
Well, even disregarding the SC2BW part of LaLuSh's post, it still includes informative and interesting information on different aspects of SC2.
And as I already said, it wasn't done for the purpose of improving SC2, in the same waythat information was presentedin the past, but rather to promote a completely different game from SC2. And either way, the discussion in this thread hasn't been about the 'different aspects of SC2" even if that's what the OP is about(which it isn't), it's entirely about this mod: finding matches for it, watching matches of it, talking about problems with it.
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
There is a thread for the mod in the custom map section already.
Yeah, I know. So why is it being discussed here where it doesn't belong? If it's about visibility, why aren't OneGoal or Starbow or Photon Cycles given the same privilege?
Hm, this question has already been asked and answered several times already:
Well, even disregarding the SC2BW part of LaLuSh's post, it still includes informative and interesting information on different aspects of SC2.
And as I already said, it wasn't done for the purpose of improving SC2, in the same waythat information was presentedin the past, but rather to promote a completely different game from SC2. And either way, the discussion in this thread hasn't been about the 'different aspects of SC2" even if that's what the OP is about(which it isn't), it's entirely about this mod: finding matches for it, watching matches of it, talking about problems with it.
It's a big deal why? It's definitely not broodwar and only people playing starcraft 2 will be able to play this mod anyways, so it stays here.
On January 01 2013 03:56 Daniri wrote: No, really...why is this thread here? It's not like its purpose is to try and improve SC2, like posts Lalush has made in the past or OneGoal(which is also in the custom map section).
It is very simple, because some people want to play Broodwar instead of SC2, And who doesn't want to play Brood War in 3D? That is what a lot of BW players always wanted,is just for a remake of BW in an engine like SC2's. You have to have never played Broodwar to not understand this concept.
This obviously answers my question about why this thread is here instead of the custom map section.
There is a thread for the mod in the custom map section already.
Yeah, I know. So why is it being discussed here where it doesn't belong? If it's about visibility, why aren't OneGoal or Starbow or Photon Cycles given the same privilege?
Hm, this question has already been asked and answered several times already:
Well, even disregarding the SC2BW part of LaLuSh's post, it still includes informative and interesting information on different aspects of SC2.
And as I already said, it wasn't done for the purpose of improving SC2, in the same waythat information was presentedin the past, but rather to promote a completely different game from SC2. And either way, the discussion in this thread hasn't been about the 'different aspects of SC2" even if that's what the OP is about(which it isn't), it's entirely about this mod: finding matches for it, watching matches of it, talking about problems with it.
It's a big deal why? It's definitely not broodwar and only people playing starcraft 2 will be able to play this mod anyways, so it stays here.
I understand the rules. By a strict interpretation of TL's rules this would probably pass as advertising.
But moderators tend not to follow the letter of the law/rule in all situations. If your purpose for creating the thread is valid and doesn't come off as an attempt at (unnecessary) advertising -- they will allow it.
Most of SC2BW's major features were already implemented. The mod wasn't going to progress much further without some playtesting. The fact that MavercK worked 2½ years on this, and mostly stayed confined to his own thread during that time period also helps.
I'm sure Starbow and OneGoal would be allowed to do the same kind of advertising once their mods reach the same level of polish and completion. Unless, of course, it happens to come off as pure advertising (i.e. there not being a huge difference in the mod's state of readiness from 3-6 months ago when compared to the present).
On January 01 2013 23:18 Darksoldierr wrote: Even if it looks great and feels like BW, its not :\
The key question is: Does it feel better than SC2?
Of course it does.
You know. We all know the elephant in the room.
And I am not referring to kespa players. SC2 felt good like a year ago. But now?
2010 was bad cuz of the maps and the low level of play 2011 and early 2012 were great, maybe not golden days of BW great gameplay wise, but still friggin great. Second half of 2012? Are you kidding me.
Why isn't this thing getting more attention? The quality and attention to detail are astounding. So much consideration and passion has been put in this; it puts to shame most "professional" developers.
I understand that most of the people that are still playing are either denying that SC2 is less exciting to watch than BW and have their heads buried far too deep in the sand to even consider trying it, or they have already switched back to BW and are not interested in mere mods. With the player base polarized this way, and the abysmal mod discovery features, the current situation is understandable, but it doesn't make it any less unjust. It's practically a crime if all this hard work doesn't get the proper recognition it deserves.
Here's to hoping that some major organization (nudge nudge, wink wink) throws some spare change to host a small exhibition tournament in it, like the SC:BW segments in the last TL Attacks.
In my opinion sc2bw should COMPLETELY remove unlimited unit selection because it seems to break the game as BW was balanced around a limit of 12 per control group. Giving an option means that everyone will play with unlimited unit selection (because it's easier) and so nobody would play with the limited unit selection. Other than that, sc2bw is looking great! Keep up the good work.
On January 02 2013 08:13 NotRandoMNamE wrote: In my opinion sc2bw should COMPLETELY remove unlimited unit selection because it seems to break the game as BW was balanced around a limit of 12 per control group. Giving an option means that everyone will play with unlimited unit selection (because it's easier) and so nobody would play with the limited unit selection. Other than that, sc2bw is looking great! Keep up the good work.
Actually, 99% of the games I have played or spectated have been on BW mode. Most people prefer BW mode, anyway. It is more than likely correct that BW/SC2BW would not be balanced with SC2 mechanics, but I do not think removing the option is necessary. Once implemented, ranked play can just be under BW mode. This still allows the more casual players to play with the BW units without affecting the competitive nature of BW. No harm done.
It would be nice, however, if the default mode was BW, so we do not have to change the 3 settings every single game.
unlimited unit selection must be default setting,guys who prefer hardcore can choose BW setting. a widely spreading game must be friendly to beginners.easy to use,hard to master.
it's 2013 now,not 1998.most people played sc2 2years or more,who really wants a 12 limit?
Maverick, Kabel, and us have a very similar goal. The thing is, we all have very different ways of going about this goal.
The plot thickens.
In any case, I disagree about the 5 unit productions requiring 5 reinforce times. The reinforce happens simuetaneously, so if you are counting time until a remaxed attack, it should be 5 production cycles + one reinforce time.
Maverick, Kabel, and us have a very similar goal. The thing is, we all have very different ways of going about this goal.
The plot thickens.
In any case, I disagree about the 5 unit productions requiring 5 reinforce times. The reinforce happens simuetaneously, so if you are counting time until a remaxed attack, it should be 5 production cycles + one reinforce time.
only if you let the units pile up at the rally point.
Maverick, Kabel, and us have a very similar goal. The thing is, we all have very different ways of going about this goal.
The plot thickens.
In any case, I disagree about the 5 unit productions requiring 5 reinforce times. The reinforce happens simuetaneously, so if you are counting time until a remaxed attack, it should be 5 production cycles + one reinforce time.
only if you let the units pile up at the rally point.
You don't have to wait for one cycle to travel before you start the production of the next cycle, though, so you should really only count the travel time once.
On January 02 2013 08:42 starfinder wrote: unlimited unit selection must be default setting,guys who prefer hardcore can choose BW setting. a widely spreading game must be friendly to beginners.easy to use,hard to master.
it's 2013 now,not 1998.most people played sc2 2years or more,who really wants a 12 limit?
i recall when i tried to get high ranking in iccup, i was kinda pissed off cuz when i played TvP the following would happen:
after smashing my force against the terran, i would try to reinforce and overcome his tank position with zealots after the vultures were all gone... however, the vultures would always show up sooner and re-deploy spider mines and i would lose... i was thinking to myself: man if the game just had MBS i could stand a better chance at squeezing out the timing a bit better...
dunno if the terran was hitting the builds perfectly but just a thought
On January 02 2013 08:42 starfinder wrote: unlimited unit selection must be default setting,guys who prefer hardcore can choose BW setting. a widely spreading game must be friendly to beginners.easy to use,hard to master.
it's 2013 now,not 1998.most people played sc2 2years or more,who really wants a 12 limit?
people who aren't mechanically challenged
everyone on this forum is mechanically challenged though
While this mod is awesome and the level of polishing is stunning, I do have the feeling that it's a waste of time (my apologies to the creators). BW is not returning, the future is Hots.
Still an amazing job, Blizzard should definitely hire the guy who did this.
You need to flank the god damn tanks, and depending on the number of tanks you definitely need storm/stasis/zealot bombs. Spread out dragoons before engaging, keep an observer hotkeyed to defuse spider mines and kill the meat vultures in the edge of the tanks range, once the vulture numbers are reduced you retreat a little your dragoons and let your zealots head in first, trying to make them get through the left over vultures and getting to the tank cluster. If you have stasis, you definitely need to stasis a cluster of tanks in the back of his army. All this while the terran tries to EMP your arbiters and HTs, your 4-5 control groups of army are baited into tank range and surrounded by vultures that will melt in a sec your goons and zealots with spider mines.
So yea, BW requires a lot of control, strategic/tactic positioning and the patience to know when and where to engage, makes it for a very exciting game to watch and play, and especially to appreciate how high level players manage to everything, when I can barely do 1/10th of that...
At least that is what I think that should be done, but I'm just a D chobo, so higher level players can definitely give better input on that!
On January 02 2013 08:42 starfinder wrote: unlimited unit selection must be default setting,guys who prefer hardcore can choose BW setting. a widely spreading game must be friendly to beginners.easy to use,hard to master.
it's 2013 now,not 1998.most people played sc2 2years or more,who really wants a 12 limit?
people who aren't mechanically challenged
For those ppl still bw setting there.
This mod should not just be a toy for old guys to remind good old days,it can do some real big things.tell people who starts from sc2,even people played neither sc2 nor bw,BW is what a great game,how shitty Dustin's "new ideas" do,what a perfect RTS game should be,finally,this will take BW and RTS come back.
if we just stop at the step"hi guys,someone made a map like bw in sc2,it's funny and thats all",I must say this is waste of Maverck's 2 years' effort.
Im a big fan of this mod, and though I don't have much money layig around I do want to see this get some exposure. So if someone is willing to organize a pretty nice tournament, make some graphics for it, I will take $100 out of my pocket so we can have a little tournament with this mod.
If anyone is serious about doing something like this, shoot me a pm.
On January 02 2013 11:24 FiWiFaKi wrote: Im a big fan of this mod, and though I don't have much money layig around I do want to see this get some exposure. So if someone is willing to organize a pretty nice tournament, make some graphics for it, I will take $100 out of my pocket so we can have a little tournament with this mod.
If anyone is serious about doing something like this, shoot me a pm.
On January 01 2013 10:29 insanet wrote: cmon guys, im waiting for a casted match, ZvT ideally.
Would love some casted matches. Come on aspiring casters!
Hmm, I'd cast a game or two for fun if people send me some good replays; might have to wait about a week or so though before parts for my new comp arrive so I can handle SC2 and Xsplit.
On January 01 2013 10:29 insanet wrote: cmon guys, im waiting for a casted match, ZvT ideally.
Would love some casted matches. Come on aspiring casters!
Hmm, I'd cast a game or two for fun if people send me some good replays; might have to wait about a week or so though before parts for my new comp arrive so I can handle SC2 and Xsplit.
On January 01 2013 10:29 insanet wrote: cmon guys, im waiting for a casted match, ZvT ideally.
Would love some casted matches. Come on aspiring casters!
Hmm, I'd cast a game or two for fun if people send me some good replays; might have to wait about a week or so though before parts for my new comp arrive so I can handle SC2 and Xsplit.
This might revive Broodwar a little bit more if it's close enough for BW tournaments to adopt. Are the unit sounds like Broodwar in this? Zealots used to sound scary. Props to who ever's been putting the work in on this.
On January 02 2013 11:07 starfinder wrote: oh,don't forget give thanks to Dustin's galaxy editor,maybe he made a game not well,but the editor is awesome,isn't it ?
He most likely did not make the editor. It was probably a team of programmers who will never receive any appreciation or attention for what they have crafted.
On January 02 2013 09:59 mishimaBeef wrote: i recall when i tried to get high ranking in iccup, i was kinda pissed off cuz when i played TvP the following would happen:
after smashing my force against the terran, i would try to reinforce and overcome his tank position with zealots after the vultures were all gone... however, the vultures would always show up sooner and re-deploy spider mines and i would lose... i was thinking to myself: man if the game just had MBS i could stand a better chance at squeezing out the timing a bit better...
dunno if the terran was hitting the builds perfectly but just a thought
Don't forget that the Terran would also have MBS and would probably ball up faster as well
On January 02 2013 09:59 mishimaBeef wrote: i recall when i tried to get high ranking in iccup, i was kinda pissed off cuz when i played TvP the following would happen:
after smashing my force against the terran, i would try to reinforce and overcome his tank position with zealots after the vultures were all gone... however, the vultures would always show up sooner and re-deploy spider mines and i would lose... i was thinking to myself: man if the game just had MBS i could stand a better chance at squeezing out the timing a bit better...
dunno if the terran was hitting the builds perfectly but just a thought
Don't forget that the Terran would also have MBS and would probably ball up faster as well
On January 02 2013 11:07 starfinder wrote: oh,don't forget give thanks to Dustin's galaxy editor,maybe he made a game not well,but the editor is awesome,isn't it ?
He most likely did not make the editor. It was probably a team of programmers who will never receive any appreciation or attention for what they have crafted.
On January 02 2013 11:07 starfinder wrote: oh,don't forget give thanks to Dustin's galaxy editor,maybe he made a game not well,but the editor is awesome,isn't it ?
He most likely did not make the editor. It was probably a team of programmers who will never receive any appreciation or attention for what they have crafted.
hmm maybe if the races had their own macro mechanics? like protoss had MBS zerg has unlimited unit selection terran had automine
dunno if this would be IMBALANCED, just a thought
brood war has an amazing core design, but to never deviate from it (esp. given the entirely new implementation (engine) would be keeping it safe?). worth a try, maybe... but then again why mess with a classic? HMM TOUGH ONE
edit: terran up the night!
game design leads:
Michael Heiberg Matthew Morris
holy shit the cinematic artists list is long... gg money
On January 01 2013 10:29 insanet wrote: cmon guys, im waiting for a casted match, ZvT ideally.
Would love some casted matches. Come on aspiring casters!
Hmm, I'd cast a game or two for fun if people send me some good replays; might have to wait about a week or so though before parts for my new comp arrive so I can handle SC2 and Xsplit.
That would be awesome!
Count me in then! New PC parts should be here in about a week. Also, someone mentioned a tour for this, I'd be willing to assist and/or cast if that happens.
On January 02 2013 08:42 starfinder wrote: unlimited unit selection must be default setting,guys who prefer hardcore can choose BW setting. a widely spreading game must be friendly to beginners.easy to use,hard to master.
it's 2013 now,not 1998.most people played sc2 2years or more,who really wants a 12 limit?
Unlimited unit selection is one of the reasons why SC2 has the TERRIBLE deathball. So if you hate the deathball with a passion you must be for limited unit selection and any comments like "it's 2013 now" are just stupid. We have stock trading by computers deciding when to buy and sell and thus we also should have "autosplitting against Banelings" as an autmatism, right? Because it is technically possible.
I have to quote (approximately) something rather wise from Harry Potter: "You have to decide between what is RIGHT and what is EASY." Unlimited unit selection is just being lazy.
On January 02 2013 14:12 mishimaBeef wrote: hmm maybe if the races had their own macro mechanics? like protoss had MBS zerg has unlimited unit selection terran had automine
dunno if this would be IMBALANCED, just a thought
brood war has an amazing core design, but to never deviate from it (esp. given the entirely new implementation (engine) would be keeping it safe?). worth a try, maybe... but then again why mess with a classic? HMM TOUGH ONE
How about starting at the baseline of "original BW" and then advancing from that SLOWLY? People "want it all ... NOW" and that is stupid, because this mod isnt finished yet! Come back in a few years time with fanciful requiests ...
@Rabiator honestly i think deathball can be resolved without the unit selection limit, my current pathing does pretty well. my only issue with deathball is how effective it is when moving, it's ready to rock and roll at all times, if an enemy engages it, all units are there ready to fire. with my pathing the main benefit that comes from it is moving your army makes it vulnerable. it's a risk you take. while moving your army will start conga lining and is exposed to flanking.
obviously i need more data to state this concept as a success. it's still pretty lenient but we'll see.
Ways to fight the deathball syndrome imo: -Make units taking more space (like some sort of personal space xD). The problem with deathballs is that is is small enough to move easily everywhere in a very tight formation making it have incredible dps since everything fires almost at once. If unit take more space, less units will be able to fire at the same time, also they will have a harder time moving arround. -Give better AE mechanics so that it heavily punishes it. -Make the game so that units don't always end up in a ball while moving. -Make pathfinding suck again (won't happen...).
On January 02 2013 16:20 MavercK wrote: @Rabiator honestly i think deathball can be resolved without the unit selection limit, my current pathing does pretty well. my only issue with deathball is how effective it is when moving, it's ready to rock and roll at all times, if an enemy engages it, all units are there ready to fire. with my pathing the main benefit that comes from it is moving your army makes it vulnerable. it's a risk you take. while moving your army will start conga lining and is exposed to flanking.
obviously i need more data to state this concept as a success. it's still pretty lenient but we'll see.
The deathball I am scared of most is simple Terran Marine-Medic with a rather high ratio of Medics. Even in SC2 you have times when there is one Medivac per bio unit and they more or less stop dying. To not have something like this we really need a limited unit selection, because otherwise you would only be able to survive with lots of Lurkers or Siege Tanks and I dont think the Reaver can keep up with the potential aggression at all. You basically only need an Academy ... ONE Academy ... to start spamming Marines and Medics from the cheaply built Barracks, so thats a really fast danger. If you "anchor" this bio deathball on some Sieged Tanks you have a terribly dominating force that is too safe IMO.
Watching some BW games of "snipealot2" reminded me that there can be aggression all over the map and if you can easily grab all your units and go to one place that is gone forever and you cant defend everywhere and we are back at the "full armies dancing around each other" again.
On January 02 2013 16:26 rezoacken wrote: Ways to fight the deathball syndrome imo: -Make units taking more space (like some sort of personal space xD). The problem with deathballs is that is is small enough to move easily everywhere in a very tight formation making it have incredible dps since everything fires almost at once. If unit take more space, less units will be able to fire at the same time, also they will have a harder time moving arround. -Give better AE mechanics so that it heavily punishes it. -Make the game so that units don't always end up in a ball while moving. -Make pathfinding suck again (won't happen...).
1. Why not start at the full BW basics first? 2. Simply requiring "more space" looks easy enough to do, but it will introduce a "regular formation for units as SC2 has it ... just with holes inbetween" and thats not a good thing to have. It also prevents the use of micro to actively clump up your units. I used to spend a lot of time to arrange my Dragoons in BW in a perfectly tight clump just so I could get the maximum amount of units transported in a recall, but with wider units you simply dont have that option anymore. 3. There seems to be no need to make the movement suck again (as in BW) since Maverck has done an awesome job to make units spread out and "wiggle sideways" while moving.
I played 1 game where I got destroyed by a very large marine medic ball, probably around 25 marines and 8 medics in that clump. I do agree that unlimited selection shouldn't be default. But maybe multiple building selection and auto-mining as default?
even KT FLASH,the perfect terran in his peak,couldn't take every TVZ or TVP with M-M-F bio army,so I think even deathball is not undefendable, just we guys in sc2bw channel didn't know how to deal with correct way. what about wait for stream matches under the mod,to see how high level TPZ players perform?
I noticed that Marines tend to stop to shoot right when they get in range, rather than waiting, and still make perfect concaves when attack-moved in SC2BW compared to SC2. This may have something to do with your 'deathball syndrome.'
I don't really think any of us can say anything definitive about unlimited selection. There's such a small sample of players. In my mind, the skill discrepancy between players amounts to much more of a difference than unlimited selection.
I personally prefer to play with unlimited selection (having played sc2 competitively for 2 years). Being used to unlimited selection is not the only reason though. I can't play with limited selection the way it's implemented now (I understand maverck is limited in the implementation). The delay before units and buildings get deselected is too distracting for me.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that I don't think it's as huge of an issue as many paint it out to be. Many players (including me), prefer unlimited selection, and would be turned off by pure limited selection.
On January 02 2013 17:30 starfinder wrote: even KT FLASH,the perfect terran in his peak,couldn't take every TVZ or TVP with M-M-F bio army,so I think even deathball is not undefendable, just we guys in sc2bw channel didn't know how to deal with correct way. what about wait for stream matches under the mod,to see how high level TPZ players perform?
Bio works in TvZ, though it's more common nowadays to open bio (+1 5 rax most common) then mech switch as you get your third base.
Bio in TvP isn't really viable (unless your a crazy mofo like hiyA) except as a surprise timing attack, especially if the protoss skipped reavers and isn't going for super fast templar tech. Pure bio raps a no tech gateway army, but once storm comes...it just doesn't work. Marines die far to quick to even try and split against storm.
The deathball I am scared of most is simple Terran Marine-Medic with a rather high ratio of Medics. Even in SC2 you have times when there is one Medivac per bio unit and they more or less stop dying. To not have something like this we really need a limited unit selection, because otherwise you would only be able to survive with lots of Lurkers or Siege Tanks and I dont think the Reaver can keep up with the potential aggression at all. You basically only need an Academy ... ONE Academy ... to start spamming Marines and Medics from the cheaply built Barracks, so thats a really fast danger. If you "anchor" this bio deathball on some Sieged Tanks you have a terribly dominating force that is too safe IM
You need lurkers vs MnM ball. Pure lings won't cut it, though sometimes muta/ling flanks can deal with marine medic in reasonably low numbers. After that you must have lurkers or hive tech (defiler/ultra) or you will just die.
For protoss it's not a big deal, as long as the bio is unscouted. Reaver works okay, and once you have storm the bio-ball becomes completely obselete. The only real bio danger is "deep six" which is a 2 factory tank, 6 barracks attack off 2 bases. If the protoss doesn't see it coming in time and doesn't go reavers and/or rush out templar tech it's gg. Earlier bio timings aren't good as the numbers will still be small enough for goons to micro them down with tolerable efficiency.
In TvT marines are near worthless, except in some unique early aggression cases. Siege tanks DESTROY them so there is never a reason to get MnM army in a TvT.
What I hate with a passion is no automine. This is a bw feature that is not needed. MBS could also go as it reduces fun of the game. Limited selection has a real case to keep as does no smart casting. I destroyed my friend with mass muta because of no limited selection.
I personally don't think unlimited selection is such a big deal because AoE is so strong, and unlimited selection makes it harder to spread on demand; you can't go 1-click 2-click 3-click etc to spread, plus the not-AoE units have such limited range compared to the AoE units.
I have no problems with the unlimited selection, from the games I've played, the deathballs gets countered by the superior aoe units (lurker, reaver, storm, mines, siege tanks). This is not sc2, if you have all your units clumped up against one of those, you're gonna trade in a very uneffective manner
Edit : About the early marines+medic push; limited selection won't change much. People will 1a2a instead of 1a. The ball will stille be there. The death ball problem really comes from the clumping mechanism, not the unlimited selection.
On January 02 2013 18:33 -Archangel- wrote: What I hate with a passion is no automine. This is a bw feature that is not needed. MBS could also go as it reduces fun of the game. Limited selection has a real case to keep as does no smart casting. I destroyed my friend with mass muta because of no limited selection.
No auto-mine means you have to put effort into developing your economy, dedicate your time. That means harassment done by the player who's behind on bases will distract you and make your economy develop slower than you intend, giving the player behind on bases a chance to make a comeback.
I think it's an essential part of BW, just like no smart-cast is an essential part because it allows spells to be pretty scary - if used correctly.
As for Mutas, I think they should make it so that the stack density gets inversly proportional to the number of Mutas selected once you move past 11 air units (can even add a tooltip explaining this as their passive ability or something, dunno). So if you want to stack more than 11 Mutas, you can, but due to the decreased stack density you will end up with some fringe Mutas that can be more easily picked.
On January 02 2013 18:33 -Archangel- wrote: What I hate with a passion is no automine. This is a bw feature that is not needed. MBS could also go as it reduces fun of the game. Limited selection has a real case to keep as does no smart casting. I destroyed my friend with mass muta because of no limited selection.
As for Mutas, I think they should make it so that the stack density gets inversly proportional to the number of Mutas selected once you move past 11 air units (can even add a tooltip explaining this as their passive ability or something, dunno). So if you want to stack more than 11 Mutas, you can, but due to the decreased stack density you will end up with some fringe Mutas that can be more easily picked.
Interesting idea. I prefer complete BW mode (after all, this is supposed to be a replica of BW), but I understand and appreciate the inclusion of the choice to play with SC2 mechanics. If your suggestion was implemented correctly, that would be really cool, even if it may seem awkward.
On January 02 2013 18:33 -Archangel- wrote: What I hate with a passion is no automine. This is a bw feature that is not needed. MBS could also go as it reduces fun of the game. Limited selection has a real case to keep as does no smart casting. I destroyed my friend with mass muta because of no limited selection.
No auto-mine means you have to put effort into developing your economy, dedicate your time. That means harassment done by the player who's behind on bases will distract you and make your economy develop slower than you intend, giving the player behind on bases a chance to make a comeback.
This is so often overlooked. The scaling mechanical demands for material leads does a lot to curb snowballing.
On January 02 2013 18:33 -Archangel- wrote: What I hate with a passion is no automine. This is a bw feature that is not needed. MBS could also go as it reduces fun of the game. Limited selection has a real case to keep as does no smart casting. I destroyed my friend with mass muta because of no limited selection.
No auto-mine means you have to put effort into developing your economy, dedicate your time. That means harassment done by the player who's behind on bases will distract you and make your economy develop slower than you intend, giving the player behind on bases a chance to make a comeback.
This is so often overlooked. The scaling mechanical demands for material leads does a lot to curb snowballing.
Yeah, it helps the player who's behind which is probably a good thing to help counteract the exponential growth of economy in sc.
Not only does it promote comebacks from mistakes or being outplayed a bit earlier in the game, it also relieves imbalance and luck-based deficits as well.
No automine helps with this, when it comes to base count. The player with more bases has a greater requirement to fully utilize all of them. Similarly, limited unit selection makes things harder on the player with a bigger force. Single-building selection also does a similar thing.
But HotS takes a step in another direction. Even your first 6 go mine automatically. Easy easy easy. That's Blizzards way. SC2BW is cool - but I really don't need it. BW is all I need.
On January 03 2013 06:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: But HotS takes a step in another direction. Even your first 6 go mine automatically. Easy easy easy. That's Blizzards way. SC2BW is cool - but I really don't need it. BW is all I need.
While I agree that was definitely not a needed change, worker splitting has 0% impact on the way a game plays out. Even if your opponent 6 pools, whether you had the perfect 3 way split, or didn't split at all, it doesn't change much. It's something more psychological. I've once had people on ladder blame their lose on their bad split at the start of the game.
On January 03 2013 05:25 -Archangel- wrote: So how do you handle reavers as zerg without mutas?
Also what is the best way to handle early zealot rushes on close positions?
Against Terrans it seems you must go lurkers or die?
Z v Reavers - Are we talking early game reaver, like a one base push? 2 base sair/reaver harass? Or reaver ultilization in the lategame by a protoss with 4+ gas?
v 2 Gate Zealot - If you twelve hatched, your pretty much fine provided he didn't do something like 9/9 center gates in which case you're probably going to die. Two hatches of ling production can easily dispatch 2 gate zealot production. The tricky part is getting the balance right. Pump nonstop lings and he'll just go to his ramp (which you won't break) and you'll have no drones because you were pumping lings while he happily built probes. Usually, you will put down at least one sunken, possibly one more depending on the situation and that should go down asap as soon as your nat hatch finishes. General rule of thumb is that you need about 3 lings per zealot.
As far as micro, it's all about surrounds. Don't let his zealots fight your lings in a nice line v line fight. Try to flank/surround the zealots.
ZvT - Lurkers are generally used, yes. But they don't always have to be, depending on the build. In the case of 2 hatch muta, many Z's opt to just continue muta production, often taking a third base solely for a third gas. Some styles also involved flanking with muta and a large group of lings.
As a general rule though, lurkers are good. The standard is to open 3 hatch muta, then as you get your third base start lurker aspect. Muta keep terran busy until that is done, and then 2 lurkers on a ramp make a base pretty much unbreakable to MnM. Generally from that point zergs will get hive going very quickly to get defilers out and use swarm to push terran off their front also to swarm down the ramp and take their 4th.
On January 03 2013 07:46 TLRMoomin wrote: Is this new, or is this the custom BW mad that has been on battlenet for along time?
This is not new. I do not know how things look on the EU server, but there are some way out of date SC2BW maps on the NA server, because people other than Maverck have republished it themselves (and just leave them there). You will want to make sure the one you are playing is the most up to date. I suppose you can just join channel SC2BW to find players and instructions. Please note that while this map/mod is not yet complete, it is well on its way to being so. Patches are released pretty frequently and the creator takes bug reports and suggestions on the thread.
On January 03 2013 07:43 dragonsuper wrote: Blizzard should do 3 things:
1) Hire this guy for the hard work
2) help him with money , tools and testers
3) relaunch sc2bw big time in korea to get a new league , kespa will agree instantly
While I like the mod, would like starcraft in some form to be big in korea, your post is filled with uncertain assumptions.
Third point is kind of wierd. However one need only look at Valve to see the success they have had hiring community members to develop their ideas into stand alone products (Portal, DOTA 2).
On January 02 2013 19:08 Fencar wrote: I personally don't think unlimited selection is such a big deal because AoE is so strong, and unlimited selection makes it harder to spread on demand; you can't go 1-click 2-click 3-click etc to spread, plus the not-AoE units have such limited range compared to the AoE units.
I agree,as a BW "elitist", i dont have any problems with MBS or unlimited selection, and even if there is a problem is tooooo early to tell, im glad maverck is taken his time before jumping to conclusions.
To weigh in on the MBS, unlimited selection, automine, smartcasting etc:
Smartcasting - AOE is damn strong in BW, with smartcasting it would be ridiculously and you could blanket the field with storms way, way to quick for the enemy to react. They would have to move back entire armies instantly, which would either be impossible or require unlimited selection which would make the game more "bally" even if the new pathfinding helps some.
Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself.
MBS - Don't like it. At least if the goal is a BW feel. An undeniable aspect of BW is the strategic aspect of mechanics. Time is a resource, and you have a finite amount of stuff you can do. A good example is PvT lategame. As protoss you'll probably have 20+ gateways you need to macro from, which takes several seconds to click through. A player has to make the decision of "do I macro out of all my gates now, or do I focus on spreading my army, storming, and stasising; and then come back to macro, knowing that doing so will create a delay on reinforcements".
With MBS you don't have to do with at all. You can look at the battle and keep microing the entire time while going 4zzzzzzzzzzzzddddddttaa. It really removes an aspect of what I consider to be the strategy of the "real time" aspect of the game.
Automine - Same thing as MBS. In one sense it's pointless, but in another it forces the decision of "how do I spend my time". It's really only tedious if viewed from a certain mindset, but in my opinion both lack of MBS and no automine add the the strategic value of deciding how one should best spend their time.
On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote: Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself.
I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent.
It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it.
With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army.
On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote: Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself.
I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent.
It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it.
With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army.
Limited unit selection is GOOD!
Ye, I think it is a stronger way to play. Because of that though I don't really think its an issue to allow unlimited selection. If people choose to group everything on one hotkey they aren't going to be able to control their army nearly as well, and will probably end up more blobbed anyway.
On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote: Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself.
I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent.
It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it.
With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army.
Limited unit selection is GOOD!
Ye, I think it is a stronger way to play. Because of that though I don't really think its an issue to allow unlimited selection. If people choose to group everything on one hotkey they aren't going to be able to control their army nearly as well, and will probably end up more blobbed anyway.
Even though the spirit may be willing the flesh will be weak ... meaning people will have a hard time playing with multiple groups after being dumbed down to a single control group in SC2. It is still far less work to use one control group and would give an easy advantage IMO with just a few units in a separate control group ... things like a swarm of Zerglings attacking under cover of Dark Swarm spread over "the whole battlefield" by just a handful of Defilers. I think Dark Swarm is balanced in part by the inability to control all Zerglings in one group. The only thing making this difficult is non-smart-cast, but that can be learned.
On January 03 2013 12:50 L_Master wrote: Unlimited Selection - Don't really have a problem. It's a disadvantage to use this anyway as you greatly lose flexibility in army control an your units will also ten to bunch more than otherwise. Maybe useful in some situations but overall if you aren't using many control groups you're hurting yourself.
I would extend this even more by saying that "forcing" your players to use a limited unit selection also makes them become better, because it "forces" them to multitask and win without simply getting more stuff than your opponent.
It is also in part a requirement to give a defender the advantage, because an established defensive position will have a dense amount of units and probably more than one control groups worth of it ... so it would be foolish to attack with just one control group and straight up. Instead you have to use trickery or good control of several squads to do it.
With just 12 units per control group you might not be able to assign ever one of your units to a control group ... and that is GOOD, because it creates a sort of chaos or need to improvise and react to the sitation instantly ... which will prepare players much more for harder situations than simply doing one click to retreat your whole army.
Limited unit selection is GOOD!
I'm not sure I like the game forcing players to improve. One thing I've thought before us that in BW challenge was imposed onto the player more, which I think might be good be for casual players who just sit down and play, because it basically forces them to have fun. In SC2 you have to push yourself more to improve, you have to figure out how to win more, which I think might have some merit at the pro level. I think maybe a lot of pros aren't improving as quickly as they did in BW (JD for instance said SC2 was so relaxing that he would get lazy in-game or something like that,) but I think that might be fine, and some players will push themselves harder
For casual players, it might kinda suck. Since the interface doesn't challenge you, you either have to challenge yourself or be challenged by your opponent, which is hard because being "casual" kinda means you aren't going to be pushing yourself and with ladder matchmaking your opponent won't really be pushing you to play much better either. Playing games with people better than me made for some of my best experiences. On the other hand, maybe the casuals are content with being that casual and they don't need a lot of challenge, but will keep playing anyway. I guess I can remember a time when I was like that.
I'm not saying one or the other is better, but I see why either might be appealing.
the only problem with this discussion right now. BW's community, especially non-korean, is very small. SC2BW's community is a fraction of that. the hardcore community that want to play with limited selection etc, is another fraction.
yea i guess i could force settings like these. but do you want BW settings or do you actually want people to play with?
I tried limited selection yesterday and it sucks big time. The limit on units is even OK, but it also turn off MBS. That is a no-no. This mod is fun because of all the cool BW units that are more fun then SC2 ones and balance of races is different. Also slower max of units and less deathballs.
But new SC2 UI changes should be standard (automine, MBS, and maybe unlimited selection, even smart casting). People that want to play real BW can go play real BW. I would guess most of us that want to play SC2BW want it for reasons I stated above.
At least combine smart casting with unlimited selection and put MBS as additional option. Why? Because unlimited selection makes dodging spells easier and smart casting makes casting spells easier. So both on, both sides have it easier, turn it off and both sides have is harder. And leave tedius macro mechanics of BW as additional option to turn Off/On (maybe even combine MBS with automine).
On January 03 2013 23:06 maybenexttime wrote: It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2.
Smart casting is definitely a no for BW IMO.
In SC2, it's required mainly because of how Protoss basically requires force fields, and how it's easy to a-move thus making spell casters hard to use makes them less effective at times.
In BW, it's a different story.
Things like automine, MBS, unlimited selection I don't mind but smart casting shouldn't be in BW.
It's also one of those few things you find impressive when watching as a spectator (sure being able to keep workers on minerals, macro, etc are all great but seeing someone bust out a spell caster and use it so well is always impressive to watch).
On January 03 2013 17:42 MavercK wrote: the only problem with this discussion right now. BW's community, especially non-korean, is very small. SC2BW's community is a fraction of that. the hardcore community that want to play with limited selection etc, is another fraction.
yea i guess i could force settings like these. but do you want BW settings or do you actually want people to play with?
This seems like that bucket problem that Blizzard has talked about. To many options can fragment the community, a problem rampant in the SC2 Arcade scene.
Nevertheless, its safe to say the MBS, Automining, etc... are SUCH contentious issues that to take away the option would upset a huge portion of the player base. These debates divided the community during SC2's development and would do so again. I think it should be strongly encouraged to play BW the BW way with BW controls, and that the game should be balanced around this. But I would leave the option their for those who really dont wish to play that way.
TLDR: Dont force settings, but encourage and balance around playing with BW settings.
On January 03 2013 23:06 maybenexttime wrote: It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2.
Smart casting is definitely a no for BW IMO.
In SC2, it's required mainly because of how Protoss basically requires force fields, and how it's easy to a-move thus making spell casters hard to use makes them less effective at times.
In BW, it's a different story.
Things like automine, MBS, unlimited selection I don't mind but smart casting shouldn't be in BW.
It's also one of those few things you find impressive when watching as a spectator (sure being able to keep workers on minerals, macro, etc are all great but seeing someone bust out a spell caster and use it so well is always impressive to watch).
Nobody cares if it is fun to watch. Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW. No players = no tournament = nobody watching.
I am not really sure what is the purpose of this map if it just wants to replicate BW. Anyone can play BW already. But people like me don't want to install it now and don't want to play exact BW replica in SC2 with all difficult mechanics. If this map will cater to hardcore BW fans it will not be popular ever because those people can have better BW experience by playing... BW
On January 03 2013 23:06 maybenexttime wrote: It's already been said that smart-casting would screw the game up. Just like it did with SC2.
Smart casting is definitely a no for BW IMO.
In SC2, it's required mainly because of how Protoss basically requires force fields, and how it's easy to a-move thus making spell casters hard to use makes them less effective at times.
In BW, it's a different story.
Things like automine, MBS, unlimited selection I don't mind but smart casting shouldn't be in BW.
It's also one of those few things you find impressive when watching as a spectator (sure being able to keep workers on minerals, macro, etc are all great but seeing someone bust out a spell caster and use it so well is always impressive to watch).
Nobody cares if it is fun to watch. Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW. No players = no tournament = nobody watching.
I am not really sure what is the purpose of this map if it just wants to replicate BW. Anyone can play BW already. But people like me don't want to install it now and don't want to play exact BW replica in SC2 with all difficult mechanics. If this map will cater to hardcore BW fans it will not be popular ever because those people can have better BW experience by playing... BW
But there will be no players too when the game is imbalanced. Imagine smart casting defilers, just blanket the place with dark swarm and send 100 zerglings with ease against terran.
I understand about being strictly replicating brood war, but you gotta at least turn on mbs and unlimited unit control. There are too many players who have played sc2. They will most likely not like how it is played and will just quit..
unlimited selection+smart cast+mbs destroys balance. lings get too strong and zerg production is too easy. played against a friend zvt and always win with unlimited sel=on, but I'm like 20-80 when playing in BW mode (he has ~30% higher apm)
My vote is to have default settings on complete BW mode but leave in the option to turn things to be more like SC2 for the more casual people who just want to play with BW units. From what I have witnessed, the large majority of people play full BW mode, anyway.
On January 04 2013 03:38 purakushi wrote: My vote is to have default settings on complete BW mode but leave in the option to turn things to be more like SC2 for the more casual people who just want to play with BW units. From what I have witnessed, the large majority of people play full BW mode, anyway.
They are only ones that play. I tried to find games on EU, only one person replies and he wanted full BW. This explains why nobody is playing anyways. I am sorry Maverick but I don't see your effort being returned with many people playing as it is now.
Then I played against friend of mine and he barely wants to play with no BW mechanics. No deathballs and funky movement of units is what kills it for him (and he is not even a regular sc2 player; I don't see how this map can ever bring in regular players).
So this map can be done for hardcore BW that can play BW at anytime or it can be made for people similar to me that are not satisfied with SC2 but don't want to play BW as well (because I would be playing it already). That is why I wonder what is the purpose of this map?!
I don't agree that this map needs to replicate BW completely to fix problems of SC2 of deathball play and too fast 200/200 while promoting defensive play. When I played with no BW macro options ON the game was much different then SC2, we both harassed each other, we didn't have a single 200/200 battle and we both tried to expand around the map and deny expansions. We both needed to micro or lose everything fast, there was no A-moving involved. And this is coming from a Platinum SC2 players. Something that I don't see in SC2 in platinum (which is cheese or amove deathballs).
On January 04 2013 01:55 -Archangel- wrote: Nobody is going to be watching SC2BW.
Umm Im DYING to watch SC2BW.
Good for you. My nobody statement was meant to emphasize the small number of people that are going to be watching. But tell my why are you not watching BW streams? Why would this be preferable to watching BW streams?
I could understand your wish if there was no more BW to watch but there are. And this map does not replicate BW totally and is less fun to watch then real BW (I watch BW sometimes and don't see how it would be more fun to watch this).
On January 04 2013 03:34 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: unlimited selection+smart cast+mbs destroys balance. lings get too strong and zerg production is too easy. played against a friend zvt and always win with unlimited sel=on, but I'm like 20-80 when playing in BW mode (he has ~30% higher apm)
Agreed, great example, thanks. BW is already (perfectly) balanced with all of its features, obviously changing any fundamental feature to be more like SC2 would actually imbalance it, because different races would benefit differently.
In my view, the purpose of SC2BW is to be able to play inside SC2 client (some people still have tech problems with BW installations), to enjoy all the replay features and data that you can analyse in real time, to have your Bnet 2.0 friends in the chat there, to perhaps enjoy full HD 3D graphics (if you are like that - personally that doesn't matter to me) etc. The purpose is not to play some imbalanced simplified version of BW, imho.
Yes, macroing without MBS is difficult. But that's the fun of it! And don't worry, if it's difficult for you, it's also difficult for your opponent. It forces you to make a lot more complicated decisions in your multitasking, about how much time to divide between macro and micro, fully realizing that it won't be perfect at all.
On January 04 2013 03:38 purakushi wrote: My vote is to have default settings on complete BW mode but leave in the option to turn things to be more like SC2 for the more casual people who just want to play with BW units. From what I have witnessed, the large majority of people play full BW mode, anyway.
They are only ones that play. I tried to find games on EU, only one person replies and he wanted full BW. This explains why nobody is playing anyways. I am sorry Maverick but I don't see your effort being returned with many people playing as it is now.
Then I played against friend of mine and he barely wants to play with no BW mechanics. No deathballs and funky movement of units is what kills it for him (and he is not even a regular sc2 player; I don't see how this map can ever bring in regular players).
So this map can be done for hardcore BW that can play BW at anytime or it can be made for people similar to me that are not satisfied with SC2 but don't want to play BW as well (because I would be playing it already). That is why I wonder what is the purpose of this map?!
I don't agree that this map needs to replicate BW completely to fix problems of SC2 of deathball play and too fast 200/200 while promoting defensive play. When I played with no BW macro options ON the game was much different then SC2, we both harassed each other, we didn't have a single 200/200 battle and we both tried to expand around the map and deny expansions. We both needed to micro or lose everything fast, there was no A-moving involved. And this is coming from a Platinum SC2 players. Something that I don't see in SC2 in platinum (which is cheese or amove deathballs).
We have plenty of players here in NA. Popularity has more to do with exposure rather than the mechanics of the game itself. Enforcing SC2 mechanics on this (when it is already defaulted to it) will only turn away BW players but not really do anything for SC2-bred players.
The purpose of this map has nothing to do with fixing SC2 or anything like that; it is to replicate BW on the SC2 engine. I do not mind having the choice to choose between SC2 and BW mode. In fact, I appreciate and like that Maverck includes the option to have SC2 mechanics in the game, instead of just leaving it full BW mode only.
First and foremost, it is a replica of BW. If you want to play it on SC2 mode, please go right ahead (it is defaulted to SC2 mode, anyway). No one is stopping you, and it is already more fun than SC2, even with unlimited selection, MBS, and smartcasting.
On January 04 2013 06:01 -Archangel- wrote: Lack of people to play with is stopping me...
please dont say that, prior to this thread I sat in that channel alone for a year and on rare ocasion someone else popping up for a game, you should be very happy about the current state.
On January 04 2013 06:01 -Archangel- wrote: Lack of people to play with is stopping me...
please dont say that, prior to this thread I sat in that channel alone for a year and on rare ocasion someone else popping up for a game, you should be very happy about the current state.
I don't have anything positive to say about this lol. Lets just say that if it takes longer to get a game you want this way then clicking Quick Battle or joining one of Monobattle maps people are not going to play it.
On January 04 2013 06:01 -Archangel- wrote: Lack of people to play with is stopping me...
please dont say that, prior to this thread I sat in that channel alone for a year and on rare ocasion someone else popping up for a game, you should be very happy about the current state.
I don't have anything positive to say about this lol. Lets just say that if it takes longer to get a game you want this way then clicking Quick Battle or joining one of Monobattle maps people are not going to play it.
which was one of the points of this thread. to attract attention and players. this doesn't help. at all. but thanks.
I have fun with this mod so far, I will continue to play it. The first few games with BW settings were a pain in the ass, SC2 spoiled me too much. Now it gets better again.
Maverck, I really appreciate all the effort you put into this project.
Some maps with the newest version would be nice though
So, thinking of putting together a casual tour for this and casting it. If there is interest I'll figure out a date and put up a thread in SC2 Tourneys section as well.
On January 04 2013 10:45 L_Master wrote: So, thinking of putting together a casual tour for this and casting it. If there is interest I'll figure out a date and put up a thread in SC2 Tourneys section as well.
Any interest?
Definitely would tune in for this.
Anyone remember Friday Night Magic? How about Friday Night SC2BW when everyone gets on to find a game? Or some time sat or sun if that works better.
On January 04 2013 10:45 L_Master wrote: So, thinking of putting together a casual tour for this and casting it. If there is interest I'll figure out a date and put up a thread in SC2 Tourneys section as well.
On January 04 2013 10:45 L_Master wrote: So, thinking of putting together a casual tour for this and casting it. If there is interest I'll figure out a date and put up a thread in SC2 Tourneys section as well.
On January 04 2013 10:45 L_Master wrote: So, thinking of putting together a casual tour for this and casting it. If there is interest I'll figure out a date and put up a thread in SC2 Tourneys section as well.
On January 04 2013 10:45 L_Master wrote: So, thinking of putting together a casual tour for this and casting it. If there is interest I'll figure out a date and put up a thread in SC2 Tourneys section as well.
-Make sure that HTs have to decelerate fully to a stop before casting anything. Right now, they can be moving and then instantly storm without having to stop first (they insta-stop when casting either storm or hallucination). In BW, there was this delay. Insta-cast is really strong ><. I believe casting while originally standing still is instant in BW, though. -Can not just select a unit and right click on the shield battery to regenerate shields like you can in BW. -Robotics Support Bay should be 450/450 HP/shields not 500/500. -Can not see what the corsair is hitting. -No DT death sound
-Like what you did with plague, please also make ensnare 50% translucent. -Dark Swarm could use more translucency, as well. Maybe 30-40% more. -Spawning DTs seems to play a random audio from the "confirming order" list on http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_unit_quotations#Dark_Templar but never the actual "Adun Toridas" from BW. -No aural indication of maelstrom. There is visual, though. -A morphing in observatory and morphing in arbiter tribunal have really small selection circles, so you can't really tell they are being selected from just the circles. After it is done, selection circle is fine, though. -Wireframe for observatory and robotics support bay are identical. -Tooltip for storm needs to be changed. It says 8 seconds when it should be 4. The actual spell lasts the correct 4 seconds, though.
-Maelstrom works in preventing units from casting spells and attacking and stuff, but currently the maelstromed units can queue up actions, so they will move, attack, or cast whatever command was given to them last during the maelstrom after it wears off. I do not think that is how it was in BW.
On January 05 2013 02:11 purakushi wrote: Suggestions/bugs
-Make sure that HTs have to decelerate fully to a stop before casting anything. Right now, they can be moving and then instantly storm without having to stop first (they insta-stop when casting either storm or hallucination). In BW, there was this delay. Insta-cast is really strong ><. I believe casting while originally standing still is instant in BW, though. -Can not just select a unit and right click on the shield battery to regenerate shields like you can in BW. -Robotics Support Bay should be 450/450 HP/shields not 500/500.
-Like what you did with plague, please also make ensnare 50% translucent. -Dark Swarm could use more translucency, as well. Maybe 30-40% more. -Spawning DTs seems to play a random audio from the "confirming order" list on http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_unit_quotations#Dark_Templar but never the actual "Adun Toridas" from BW. -No aural indication of maelstrom. There is visual, though. -A morphing in observatory and morphing in arbiter tribunal has a really small selection circle, so you can't really tell it is being selected from just the circle. After it is done, selection circle is fine, though.
-Maelstrom works in preventing units from casting spells and attacking and stuff, but currently the maelstromed units can queue up actions, so they will move, attack, or cast whatever command was given to them last during the maelstrom after it wears off. I do not think that is how it was in BW.
These are all outstanding fixes. I vaguely remember the Maelstorm bug applying to stasis too.
On January 05 2013 02:11 purakushi wrote: Suggestions/bugs
-Make sure that HTs have to decelerate fully to a stop before casting anything. Right now, they can be moving and then instantly storm without having to stop first (they insta-stop when casting either storm or hallucination). In BW, there was this delay. Insta-cast is really strong ><. I believe casting while originally standing still is instant in BW, though. -Can not just select a unit and right click on the shield battery to regenerate shields like you can in BW. -Robotics Support Bay should be 450/450 HP/shields not 500/500. -Can not see what the corsair is hitting. -No DT death sound
-Like what you did with plague, please also make ensnare 50% translucent. -Dark Swarm could use more translucency, as well. Maybe 30-40% more. -Spawning DTs seems to play a random audio from the "confirming order" list on http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_unit_quotations#Dark_Templar but never the actual "Adun Toridas" from BW. -No aural indication of maelstrom. There is visual, though. -A morphing in observatory and morphing in arbiter tribunal have really small selection circles, so you can't really tell they are being selected from just the circles. After it is done, selection circle is fine, though. -Wireframe for observatory and robotics support bay are identical. -Tooltip for storm needs to be changed. It says 8 seconds when it should be 4. The actual spell lasts the correct 4 seconds, though.
-Maelstrom works in preventing units from casting spells and attacking and stuff, but currently the maelstromed units can queue up actions, so they will move, attack, or cast whatever command was given to them last during the maelstrom after it wears off. I do not think that is how it was in BW.
thanks, i've fixed most of these. high templar instant cast isn't possible to remove right now, from the settings i've played with. will do an update soonish.
On January 05 2013 02:15 fuhuodezero wrote: Please give your mod to china! CHINA need BW MOD china has a lot of people who like SC1. SO you know what means.
i had someone in here say they were already published on CN?
all the sounds from BW are in? it's very important for me, i don't want to hear those fart from infestor and other zerg of sc2, or those stupid tatatata gun from marine....
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
User was warned for this post
what if i told you, that BW is better than SC2 even without MBS, automine, smartcast ecc...?
On January 05 2013 18:48 Garmer wrote: all the sounds from BW are in? it's very important for me, i don't want to hear those fart from infestor and other zerg of sc2, or those stupid tatatata gun from marine....
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
User was warned for this post
what if i told you, that BW is better than SC2 even without MBS, automine, smartcast ecc...?
It's an opinion. Though he was warned for a reason, personally, no automine, smartcast, and infinite unit selection is a big turn-off for me- not to mention the low resolution and lack of customizable hotkeys.
On January 06 2013 00:14 Aunvilgod wrote: Are there any popular BW maps that have not been ported yet?
alot. many are difficult to port. anything with a ton of ramps/bridges is extremely difficult to port in a faithful manner.
i wanted to port La Mancha.
as you can see. it'd only work if i have the map rotated, which causes other problems (how to make the map boundaries work, i can't have them on diagonals....
On January 05 2013 18:48 Garmer wrote: all the sounds from BW are in? it's very important for me, i don't want to hear those fart from infestor and other zerg of sc2, or those stupid tatatata gun from marine....
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
User was warned for this post
what if i told you, that BW is better than SC2 even without MBS, automine, smartcast ecc...?
It's an opinion. Though he was warned for a reason, personally, no automine, smartcast, and infinite unit selection is a big turn-off for me- not to mention the low resolution and lack of customizable hotkeys.
i confuse the word "with" and "without", my intention was to say "with", basically the things that count more are the units design, BW is not only limitation... so even if BW had MBS\smartcast\automine it would be still the better game, i have also tried it with the hack, and it remain a great game.
On January 06 2013 00:14 Aunvilgod wrote: Are there any popular BW maps that have not been ported yet?
Personally I think this mod really needs to work on ... Big Game Hunters!
Sadly the "team and vision mechanics" in SC2 arent as chaos-inducing (=flexible) as they were in BW and that limits the fun. Those things probably cant be reproduced by a mod.
On January 06 2013 00:14 Aunvilgod wrote: Are there any popular BW maps that have not been ported yet?
Personally I think this mod really needs to work on ... Big Game Hunters!
Sadly the "team and vision mechanics" in SC2 arent as chaos-inducing (=flexible) as they were in BW and that limits the fun. Those things probably cant be reproduced by a mod.
I thought there was a Big Game Hunters map. Could have sworn I saw it on a day9 episode or something.
On January 05 2013 18:48 Garmer wrote: all the sounds from BW are in? it's very important for me, i don't want to hear those fart from infestor and other zerg of sc2, or those stupid tatatata gun from marine....
On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote: stop trying to recreate BW really.. Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way. Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general. BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
User was warned for this post
what if i told you, that BW is better than SC2 even without MBS, automine, smartcast ecc...?
It's an opinion. Though he was warned for a reason, personally, no automine, smartcast, and infinite unit selection is a big turn-off for me- not to mention the low resolution and lack of customizable hotkeys.
I actually don't mind those barriers at all because it means everyone is playing with the same rule set. You really have to get accustomed to it.
On January 06 2013 00:14 Aunvilgod wrote: Are there any popular BW maps that have not been ported yet?
alot. many are difficult to port. anything with a ton of ramps/bridges is extremely difficult to port in a faithful manner.
i wanted to port La Mancha.
as you can see. it'd only work if i have the map rotated, which causes other problems (how to make the map boundaries work, i can't have them on diagonals....
On January 06 2013 00:30 Aunvilgod wrote: Ah I see. No way to fix that. Unless you spam flight blockers around the edges I guess.
That fix is completely doable, and a map rotated like that would be an incredible mindfuck to play or watch games on :D
Should we drop the speed setting for the Broodwar ruleset? I remember in SC2 beta, Blizzard changed the max game speed to be faster than it was in Broodwar, and setting below max was equal to fastest in Broodwar. Have you already adjusted this in the mod, or how have people been playing it?
On January 07 2013 20:27 Rah wrote: Should we drop the speed setting for the Broodwar ruleset? I remember in SC2 beta, Blizzard changed the max game speed to be faster than it was in Broodwar, and setting below max was equal to fastest in Broodwar. Have you already adjusted this in the mod, or how have people been playing it?
speed should be correct on fastest speed, thats what i used to set all the buildings/upgrade/attack/move speed/etc timings.
I believe that Terran's really underpowered in this. I've played a lot of games, and mech armies are nowhere near as effective as they are in Brood War. Spider mines do not work correctly, and enemy units close distance much more quickly. It also seems like tanks focus shots on the same target more, so extra shots are wasted on overkill, but I'm not really able to tell what they're firing at because of the animation.
Not sure if you just want to keep it like it is, but I found this:
"How do I install a black fog of war that prevents players from seeing any part of the map without exploring it? Map > Map Options. Set the "Grey Mask" value behind "Unexplored Areas" to "Black Mask"."
On January 09 2013 07:18 purakushi wrote: Not sure if you just want to keep it like it is, but I found this:
"How do I install a black fog of war that prevents players from seeing any part of the map without exploring it? Map > Map Options. Set the "Grey Mask" value behind "Unexplored Areas" to "Black Mask"."
That would make it BW style.
i used to have it but removed it. it doesn't do anything positive. i originally had it to stop people from mineral walking workers through a zealot wall or something but you can't do that with grey mask either, a mineral patch has to be revealed before a worker will mineral walk to it.
the only other thing it does is make it nearly impossible for new players to have any idea of the map.
On January 09 2013 07:18 purakushi wrote: Not sure if you just want to keep it like it is, but I found this:
"How do I install a black fog of war that prevents players from seeing any part of the map without exploring it? Map > Map Options. Set the "Grey Mask" value behind "Unexplored Areas" to "Black Mask"."
That would make it BW style.
i used to have it but removed it. it doesn't do anything positive. i originally had it to stop people from mineral walking workers through a zealot wall or something but you can't do that with grey mask either, a mineral patch has to be revealed before a worker will mineral walk to it.
the only other thing it does is make it nearly impossible for new players to have any idea of the map.
Really? I have been able to right click my workers to greyed mineral patches. It would be nice if it were grey but unclickable, though.
On January 09 2013 07:18 purakushi wrote: Not sure if you just want to keep it like it is, but I found this:
"How do I install a black fog of war that prevents players from seeing any part of the map without exploring it? Map > Map Options. Set the "Grey Mask" value behind "Unexplored Areas" to "Black Mask"."
That would make it BW style.
i used to have it but removed it. it doesn't do anything positive. i originally had it to stop people from mineral walking workers through a zealot wall or something but you can't do that with grey mask either, a mineral patch has to be revealed before a worker will mineral walk to it.
the only other thing it does is make it nearly impossible for new players to have any idea of the map.
Really? I have been able to right click my workers to greyed mineral patches. It would be nice if it were grey but unclickable, though.
im pretty sure you can click on them, but they will only move command if you havn't scouted them. they wont mineral walk, i'll have to reconfirm this as something might have changed...
The plan is to have more tournaments and also include money prizes.
Thanks was fun.
Seeing this, I really feel that pathfinding thing is the way to go for sc2... too bad Blizzard missed the opportunity of HotS to do such a bold move. sigh.
Could you please fix the Fighting Spirit OBS issue? When obbing a game you can only watch 1 player at a time, if you set ALL (nor player 1 or player 2 vision) you just can't see the game. This "mod" is GREAT, keep up the good job!
On January 17 2013 23:26 Xeln4g4 wrote: Could you please fix the Fighting Spirit OBS issue? When obbing a game you can only watch 1 player at a time, if you set ALL (nor player 1 or player 2 vision) you just can't see the game. This "mod" is GREAT, keep up the good job!
On February 07 2013 00:36 hangarninetysix wrote: Is SC2BW better than SCBW?
You gotta find out for yourself. It's pretty fun for some that dislike the BW graphics and/or want to play BW without it complex controls for once (you can play with or without smartcasting/limited selection for example). It's pretty similar to BW although not perfectly of course.
Enjoyed it more than standard SC2, by the way in EU fighting spirit I got the bw units renamed as something like button / unit / unit name and their hotkeys and ability hotkeys didn't seem to work.
I played this a while ago when I first heard about it, and it was awesome. Now that it's a bit more polished I'm going to start playing it semi-regularly since it's so much fun!
I've tried playing it recently but couldn't find anyone to play with, however I just realized that the chat channel is #SC2BW instead of just SC2BW... hopefully there are some people in that channel XD
It seems the EU maps are very few and old in comparison, could some nice guy upload the latest versions? Or should I just plat around with global play thing and try to get my friends do it too?
Edit: read more from the other thread, seems like hotkeys are mostly localization problem, I feel silly.
Are there other channels than sc2bw where you can look for players? Because no matter when I want to play, there are never more than like 5 players in channel and 3+ afk.. EU channel is even more inactive than NA.
Also, last time I played on Fighting Spirit v1.22 I wasn't able to set automine, selection limit, etc to bw settings for some reason. Every time when the game started it seemed like it resetted the settings to sc2. And aren't there more maps than fs, medusa and some old version of destination? At least on sc2bw.net there are several others...
Edit: Oh, I just saw that arcade and cg section have different maps...
After playing a few games, here is a list of what I noticed: • Khaydarin Amulet is missing • Gravity Thrusters - Tooltip is missing (instead "Button/Tooltip/ResearchGravityThrusters") • Corsairs do not turn to attack. They look in the opposite direction of their target but still fire. • No Critter on maps? • Gateway units get stuck when they actually should not (intenional? / sc2 engine related?)
Only stuff regarding protoss. Havent had the chance to play other races more to find errors. Is it okay to post this here, or should I write an email or somewhere on sc2bw.net? (question to Maverck)
Hey guys, any chance you could add some maps to the pool? Getting kinda bored with the current set even though they're great maps. Just need some more variety you know?
Otherwise great job, but my friend was complaining that terran mines might not be working correctly...same with the laying of them. He's convinced he used to be able to lay them much faster (I end up killing the vultures while they're 'stuck' laying them).
I don't remember how fast one could lay mines in the BW client, so I'm not sure if it's just complaining. Worth looking into unless you know about it/its working as intended.
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