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Random_0
United States1163 Posts
We're going to see how these balance changes play out at the pro level: in Code S, at MLG, in Proleague. That's where these changes matter most. Frankly, I'm excited and hope that we'll see some more diverse games. Especially in the late stages of tournaments, the proliferation of Zergs and the single-minded desire to get to the late game super army made for some stale games. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote: I'd hardly go that route. It will have impact vs colossi and vikings, ghosts will still be hard pressed to do anything with broodlords around shelling broodlings+tank fire on them. It's really hard to say the effect though, it will probably be pretty massive against vikings, the problem I still have is, the game is still going to be "lets macro to 3 base, each and every game" and FG is still going to be insanely boring to watch but that is a completly different problem. People played like this for more than a year now. 3base just is damn good in SC2, because you get maximum saturation. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:15 avilo wrote: Um, once again you have a misconception or a wrong notion. Nothing changed with seeker missile. You still will die if you attempt to make ravens at a point in the game where there's momentum and both players are attacking/defending. The change makes it so Terran doesn't research a 1 time 150/150 cost. Nothing else changed. The unit was in fact not buffed, which is a shame. The problem is the accessibility and building the raven often does not pay itself off...there's too many situations where you build it and will have no energy for anything useful (1 autoturret? come on). So yeah...stop saying it's a buff to seeker missile guys. It's not. + Show Spoiler + When blizzard wants to wake up and actually make the raven be able to pay itself off, make -> Corvid reactor increases raven starting energy to 100. Call me in 2014 when they give in and realize this change is the one that makes the raven more usable without overpowering it or changing any other values in the game If you want a complete analysis of why the changes they have done to the raven don't actually affect lategame or do much, read this thread I previously made here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383437 Not saying you're wrong about how small the change is, but strictly speaking, it is a buff. Maybe a small one, but still a buff. If the raven change has any impact, it most certainly won't be in late-game. It matters very little in late-game if you're massing ravens (it only saves you 150/150, a paltry amount in late-game); it could matter a little if someone decided to go ravens earlier in the game, when money is scarce and 110 seconds of research time on a tech lab is better spent on corvid reactor than seeker missile; but the place it is most likely to have an effect is a situation in which you got a raven for another purpose, and then just happen to have it sitting around. There aren't a lot of early-game reasons to make a raven, the biggest being mobile detection. So in TvT or maybe TvP, you might have made a raven to deal with banshees or DTs, and then later on you'll happen to have it. If a good opportunity for seeker missile pops up, you have the ability, but pre-patch, you almost certainly wouldn't have researched it. TvZ this also means that Terrans could get a single raven in TvZ against mutas. The odds of successfully landing your seeker missile on a pack of mutas is pretty low, and spending 250/350 wouldn't have been worth it; but at a cost of 100/200, it's maybe a decent possibility. If it doesn't wind up happening you still have a raven sitting around, which is a decent investment in most circumstances. So I guess we don't disagree substantively; the change is most likely insignificant. But a buff is a buff, no matter how small. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On December 05 2012 17:37 Sandermatt wrote: After each patch the buffed race says it changes nothing, while the nerfed race says it changes something. This is a sign of a good patch, and it usually changes something. You may be right. I'm not too sure about the HSM thing, but this patch looks basically good. Anyway I guess it will take a few weeks before we can evaluate its results. I hope it will bring more diversity to the vZ matchups. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On December 05 2012 17:32 Big J wrote: but that is a completly different problem. People played like this for more than a year now. 3base just is damn good in SC2, because you get maximum saturation. No, the problem imo is the fact that there is very little terran can do to a 3 base zerg. Before the queen patch, zergs couldn't just take a free 3rd, they had to actually determine if they could and/or possibly spend resources in roaches to do so. Now, aslong as you can see the CC on the natural, you are stupid if you're not taking your 3rd. Getting that free 3rd is just insanely boring, was a lot more interesting back and forth before the queen patch. Edit: If we take TvP as an example, neither side is safe in taking a 3rd. Both sides are still taking risks and getting an early 3rd, which opens up timings for the opponent. There are imo many things that suck about the TvP MU, but that particular... dimension is brilliant, something that you could also see for TvZ before instead of this NR 15min snoozefest. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:29 BigBossX wrote: Obvious patchzerg is obvious Nothing in the game dominates the way infestors do, and the only unit that came close was ghost with snipe that got instantly nerfed to uselessness err.... how about sentries, colossus? sure, infestor is a single unit that basically does what a coloss/sentry timing does for protoss, but it doesnt matter, its not my point.... if u dont know what my point is, 1 dont be so f*cking condescending and 2, dont respond.... | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On December 05 2012 17:52 zJayy962 wrote: Sigh Blizzard needs to understand it shouldn't be about just nerfing zerg. It should be about giving Zerg another viable option in late game. Nerf infestore MORE, but buff ultralisks/hydras to allow for different compositions in the late game. These changes will help balance zerg sure but won't make the game any better to watch I'm protoss but I have to agree with this, as long as the buff would be small and done with all the good precautions. But too many changes can't be done in a single patch. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
It's really annoying that zerg have only 2 good spells; heck even the fact that they essentially just have 3 spells in total is also BS. On December 05 2012 17:52 zJayy962 wrote: Very much agreed. Both Ultralisk and hydralisk are far too weak and hence get used far too rarely; What's worse is just like virtually every zerg unit, they don't use mucj/any micro.Sigh Blizzard needs to understand it shouldn't be about just nerfing zerg. It should be about giving Zerg another viable option in late game. Nerf infestore MORE, but buff ultralisks/hydras to allow for different compositions in the late game. These changes will help balance zerg sure but won't make the game any better to watch I'm sick of the way Blizzard made zerg in SC2 as a race that can't really take advantage of micro whatsoever. Even mutalisks can't do a whole lot now micro-wise; it pretty much boils down to just having good multitasking for mutas, not micro. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
On December 05 2012 17:06 Sissors wrote: Why do people have to keep making the same claims without for a second looking at what has been posted many times? How do you think this change will make sure significantly more ravens would be used in lategame? The only change this represents is 150/150 less expenses. Now I definately wont complain about that as terran, but it wont mean seeker missiles are available sooner, and late game it really wont do anything. Early game there is pretty much no reason to use seeker missiles, so also all the 1-1-1 doomscenarios with ravens dont make any sense (not to mention it still takes ages for ravens to have enough energy). They could be uses for faster ravens. If that were so, people who already have the tech for it could continue using it in the late game as well, as ravens are pretty good. | ||
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ViktorSC
United States75 Posts
laughs, beers, free seeker missiles. | ||
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Solarist
291 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:02 lord_nibbler wrote: Newbie question: Will this Raven change affect the infamous 1-1-1 against Protoss or is the timing gone when the energy is build up? None at all, the time required for your raven to get enough energy for a HSM is too long. Also PDD is much better in those situations | ||
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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
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lazyitachi
1043 Posts
Hurrah for hindsight 20/ 20. | ||
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
The Raven change was necessary, the amount of gas to get the Raven was prohibitive in the early late game where you are scrambling to build Starports, Vikings, etc. This change is pretty huge in my opinion, the Raven already had to wait for 125 energy just to use one SM. This just reduces the time from deciding to build Ravens to using SM. The obvious use is in TvZ, but I think TvT may become affected in the end as well. I'd like to see Ravens against Protoss due to PDD's effectiveness against Stalkers. It could have unexplored uses. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 05 2012 17:58 Zarahtra wrote: No, the problem imo is the fact that there is very little terran can do to a 3 base zerg. Before the queen patch, zergs couldn't just take a free 3rd, they had to actually determine if they could and/or possibly spend resources in roaches to do so. Now, aslong as you can see the CC on the natural, you are stupid if you're not taking your 3rd. Getting that free 3rd is just insanely boring, was a lot more interesting back and forth before the queen patch. Edit: If we take TvP as an example, neither side is safe in taking a 3rd. Both sides are still taking risks and getting an early 3rd, which opens up timings for the opponent. There are imo many things that suck about the TvP MU, but that particular... dimension is brilliant, something that you could also see for TvZ before instead of this NR 15min snoozefest. Before the queen patch, every Terran went reactored hellion into triple CC (or did some huge two base cheese) and every zerg went two base double upgrade or roach/ling into something like 7-9min third (or did some huge bust). Two base builds died long before the queen patch... | ||
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