EPT[Dec 4] Wings of Liberty Balance patch - Page 33
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birchman
Sweden393 Posts
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
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Moochlol
United States456 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote: Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they are the only way to cost effectively hold waves of good 2/2 bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from zerg this patch I would be surprised. | ||
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SamsLiST
Germany184 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:12 justinpal wrote: I think Zerg has plenty of options, it's just that Infest/Broodlord is so much more dominant, and it stood out. It's still going to be super effective, the range decrease is only going to make miscontroling Infestors more costly. The IT change is going to force players into making smart decisions with where they spam them out. It's so much more unforgiving when a stack of ITs are going to die to storm, also we can look forward to Zergs having to spread their eggs. It's going to be a slight adjustment. I like these changes, they are very slight. The Raven change was necessary, the amount of gas to get the Raven was prohibitive in the early late game where you are scrambling to build Starports, Vikings, etc. This change is pretty huge in my opinion, the Raven already had to wait for 125 energy just to use one SM. This just reduces the time from deciding to build Ravens to using SM. The obvious use is in TvZ, but I think TvT may become affected in the end as well. I'd like to see Ravens against Protoss due to PDD's effectiveness against Stalkers. It could have unexplored uses. a)I can not remember any game I did not went for Ravens in the lategame bc the 150gas HSM upgrade was to much of an investment. the overall investment ressourcewise (starports, techlabs, ravens) is not really changed. b) the investment timewise was always and still is only connected to the energy on the raven the change can give you a few seconds earlier missile for the very first Ravens you build nothing else you get raven energy up half way through you build the first ravens they pop with 75 energy while energy builds up HSM could be in research _______________ all you get (in an optimal szenario) is 150/150 min/gas and a few seconds earlier HSM for the very first ravens you could have. In reality nothing changes and there will be no unexplored uses since everyone who really tried to make ravens work will realize Blizzard did not even touch the core problems with them yet. the "usage" and "viability" is not changed at all. the only real buff on Ravens is actually the reduced fungal range since capturing raven before they get in range is a little bit less easy now (outranges HSM still by a lot though) | ||
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ETisME
12676 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote: Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit | ||
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Finnz
United Kingdom260 Posts
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote: if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. | ||
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SamsLiST
Germany184 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote: that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit lol Infestors got abused so much they are their "coreunit" now? | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:56 SamsLiST wrote: lol Infestors got abused so much they are their "coreunit" now? might as well be, they buffed them to be the be all end all and that's what players used them as. Now it's back to roach/hydra/corruptor and ling bane muta | ||
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ETisME
12676 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:56 SamsLiST wrote: lol Infestors got abused so much they are their "coreunit" now? are they not the "coreunit" now? you are telling me they are not part of infestor broodlord deathball? without infestors, there will be no zerg deathball at all | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote: that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote: I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:59 Serpico wrote: might as well be, they buffed them to be the be all end all and that's what players used them as. Now it's back to roach/hydra/corruptor and ling bane muta lol... first of all, it's not like infestors are unplayable now. They are still the best unit zerg has. Maybe still the best unit in the game. Second of all, "back to roach/hydra/corruptor and muta/ling/bane". Those playstyles got abbandoned because they didn't work anymore. Well, Muta/ling/bling can work for some time in the midgame vs bio Terran that didn't open 3CC + double ups. Then you transition into Infestors... | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote: that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit That doesn't make any sense. | ||
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azzih
Germany98 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:12 justinpal wrote: I think Zerg has plenty of options, Thats nonsense. Zerg always has to go for Brood-Infestor-Corruptor in Lategame. Its our strongest build and for example in PvZ the only one, which can challange the big Protoss-Ball. Sometimes mass-muta works too, but only if your ahead in bases big time. PvZ imo is the most boring matchup, Zerg has not enough options its always the same thing (try survive and tech to broods). And Toss tries in 90% of the games to do a stupid timing at 2 or 3 base, cause Broodlord-Infestor in Lategame is a hard thing to deal with. Instead of nerfing things, Blizzard should give races more options and units to increase the variety of strategies. And i dont mean stupid units like the oracle who can only harass mineral-lines. | ||
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sicueft
United States130 Posts
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On December 05 2012 19:03 Big J wrote: lol... first of all, it's not like infestors are unplayable now. They are still the best unit zerg has. Maybe still the best unit in the game. Second of all, "back to roach/hydra/corruptor and muta/ling/bane". Those playstyles got abbandoned because they didn't work anymore. Well, Muta/ling/bling can work for some time in the midgame vs bio Terran that didn't open 3CC + double ups. Then you transition into Infestors... You know that blizzard has mentioned they will be nerfing infestors "heavily" and that these changes are far from the only ones right? Infestors wont be even close to what they are now if blizzard intends to follow through. I would expect the infestor to become pretty mediocre. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 05 2012 19:06 Serpico wrote: You know that blizzard has mentioned they will be nerfing infestors "heavily" and that these changes are far from the only ones right? Infestors wont be even close to what they are now if blizzard intends to follow through. Yes, in a different game. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
lol, which will become everyone's game for years in a matter of months. | ||
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Solarist
291 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote: that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Zerg is above 60% win rate in TvZ and you want buffs to compensate? Zerg should be happy the nerfs were so small tbh | ||
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ETisME
12676 Posts
On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote: Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) I think zerg needs to get a new buff to some other units in order to let them NOT use infestors heavy composition. It's not only because infestors were strong, it's because muta ling banelings can't cut it eventually. | ||
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