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On December 05 2012 19:09 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:07 Big J wrote:On December 05 2012 19:06 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 19:03 Big J wrote:On December 05 2012 18:59 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:56 SamsLiST wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit lol Infestors got abused so much they are their "coreunit" now? might as well be, they buffed them to be the be all end all and that's what players used them as. Now it's back to roach/hydra/corruptor and ling bane muta lol... first of all, it's not like infestors are unplayable now. They are still the best unit zerg has. Maybe still the best unit in the game. Second of all, "back to roach/hydra/corruptor and muta/ling/bane". Those playstyles got abbandoned because they didn't work anymore. Well, Muta/ling/bling can work for some time in the midgame vs bio Terran that didn't open 3CC + double ups. Then you transition into Infestors... You know that blizzard has mentioned they will be nerfing infestors "heavily" and that these changes are far from the only ones right? Infestors wont be even close to what they are now if blizzard intends to follow through. Yes, in a different game. lol, which will become everyone's game for years in a matter of months.
Are you being dense here?
There are new Zerg units in HoTS. If you are arguing that infestors are core unit in WoL, fine whatever. But to make a logical leap that it will remain the case in an expansion with powerful new units/abilities?
Like charging ultras for example. Freaking badass.
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On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units)
GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins?
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Doesn't this patch have a bigger impact on PvZ than TvZ? It would seem to me that the change simply makes turtling to BL + infestor even more inevitable - protoss imba mid-to-before-BLs-game is even stronger and there is still no other way of fighting it than laategame BL and infestor.
It will be interesting seeing the change in TvZ, but I would have preferred a BL + infestor nerf that didn't impact the choice of ultras over BLs. That composition partly depends on the infestor-eggs allowing zergs to be offensive and not lose before reaching the terran units.
All in all, I fear this change will make the use of BL and infestor even more inevitable than before, because it's the only way to be offensive past 12-13 minutes for zerg.
Maybe an option would be to make speed-upgraded overlords faster. It would improve harass-potential throughout the game and could be effective against the protoss mid-to-before-BLs-game.
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On December 05 2012 19:16 m0ck wrote:
Doesn't this patch have a bigger impact on PvZ than TvZ? It would seem to me that the change simply makes turtling to BL + infestor even more inevitable - protoss imba mid-to-before-BLs-game is even stronger and there is still no other way of fighting it than laategame BL and infestor.
It will be interesting seeing the change in TvZ, but I would have preferred a BL + infestor nerf that didn't impact the choice of ultras over BLs. That composition partly depends on the infestor-eggs allowing zergs to be offensive and not lose before reaching the terran units.
All in all, I fear this change will make the use of BL and infestor even more inevitable than before, because it's the only way to be offensive past 12-13 minutes for zerg.
Maybe an option would be to make speed-upgraded overlords faster. It would improve harass-potential throughout the game and could be effective against the protoss mid-to-before-BLs-game.
Movement speed of overlords arent whats keeping zerg from herrasing Protoss. Its the simple fact that they dont need too
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On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins?
then you are on the same line of thought as me.
Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor.
But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor.
flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome.
But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks.
Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again.
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Oh no! They've slightly nerfed the winfestor, I cannot just spam f everywhere from the minimap, now i've to sue carefully a spellcaster or maybe my opponent can kill all of my infestors.. Should I learn to play finally?
A real threat to a patchzerg... I'm sorry for them, dropping from master to platinum will be tough
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On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again.
Nope, im not in the same thought as you. I think you're grossly overstating things when you say that GGlord/winfestor amove is the only aggressive potential that zerg has.
And Ultras are still in the game as far as i know
Edit: and you're argument with Muta/Ling/bling not working in lategame, well Marine tank hardly works in lategame. Should we buff that comp then so Terran has some lategame potential?
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On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units)
Maps are getting bigger and more open. Not all maps, but that's a map design issue. Serious tourneys should not use ridiculous maps. Akilon isn't -that- bad. I see a lot of pathways for attacks. Maybe I'm missing something specific, but again, that's a map design issue.
If Terrans turtle hard, they better be sure to win decisively. Terrans cannot trade and then expect to win (edit: lategame) because A) Zerg remax, B) Zerg tech switch.
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On December 05 2012 19:16 m0ck wrote:
protoss imba mid-to-before-BLs-game is even stronger and there is still no other way of fighting it than laategame BL and infestor.
are you new
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Range should change a lot more then people think.
Without +1 range to immortals neither pvp nor pvz would be played the way they are right now, hell even pvt would be a lot different. This should make feedback/snipe/emp a lot easier to use vs infestors.
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On December 05 2012 19:23 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) Maps are getting bigger and more open. Not all maps, but that's a map design issue. Serious tourneys should not use ridiculous maps. Akilon isn't -that- bad. I see a lot of pathways for attacks. Maybe I'm missing something specific, but again, that's a map design issue. If Terrans turtle hard, they better be sure to win decisively. Terrans cannot trade and then expect to win because A) Zerg remax, B) Zerg tech switch.
The days of Terran turtleling hard are pretty much over since Terran doesent have a lategame that can be reached "easy" You could with ghosts since they could actually combat zerg lategame, but we know how that went
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France9034 Posts
Those changes seems pretty interesting balance-wise.
I still think the infestor should be completely removed of the game, spectator-wise, and even in terms of gameplay and possibilities...
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On December 05 2012 19:28 Ragnarork wrote:
Those changes seems pretty interesting balance-wise.
I still think the infestor should be completely removed of the game, spectator-wise, and even in terms of gameplay and possibilities...
Not remove, simply redesign fungal growth.
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On December 05 2012 19:28 Ragnarork wrote:
Those changes seems pretty interesting balance-wise.
I still think the infestor should be completely removed of the game, spectator-wise, and even in terms of gameplay and possibilities...
It's been stated that the infestor will undergo major changes in HoTS. This is just a band aid fix till then, because they know it's a problem, but any drastic changes might hurt Zerg. Aside from that these changes will have a pretty big impact on PvZ being able to actually kill eggs now with storm, players can't mindlessly throw down eggs instantly with a few fungals and with range decrease it adds in more dynamics with the templar.
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On December 05 2012 19:22 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Nope, im not in the same thought as you. I think you're grossly overstating things when you say that GGlord/winfestor amove is the only aggressive potential that zerg has. And Ultras are still in the game as far as i know Edit: and you're argument with Muta/Ling/bling not working in lategame, well Marine tank hardly works in lategame. Should we buff that comp then so Terran has some lategame potential?
infestor broodlord is not the only aggressive potential, of cause. I never said they are except in the case where PFs are set up and terran hard turtles.
Ultras will not break split map PFs with their poor pathing and PFs totally make it even worse.
you are the one who also suggested GGlord/winfestors when terran set up PFs.
I also did not say infestor broodlord should get buff. I said Zerg should get another buff somewhere so they don't have to go infestors all the games.
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On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again.
Flanks don't work lategame? How exactly does a tactic that gives you surround over your opponent's army "not work" in late game?
On December 05 2012 19:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:22 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Nope, im not in the same thought as you. I think you're grossly overstating things when you say that GGlord/winfestor amove is the only aggressive potential that zerg has. And Ultras are still in the game as far as i know Edit: and you're argument with Muta/Ling/bling not working in lategame, well Marine tank hardly works in lategame. Should we buff that comp then so Terran has some lategame potential? infestor broodlord is not the only aggressive potential, of cause. I never said they are except in the case where PFs are set up and terran hard turtles. Ultras will not break split map PFs with their poor pathing and PFs totally make it even worse. you are the one who also suggested GGlord/winfestors when terran set up PFs. I also did not say infestor broodlord should get buff. I said Zerg should get another buff somewhere so they don't have to go infestors all the games.
You're just conveniently ignoring the fact that on split map economy, Zerg can remax and switch tech on the drop of a dime.
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On December 05 2012 19:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:22 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Nope, im not in the same thought as you. I think you're grossly overstating things when you say that GGlord/winfestor amove is the only aggressive potential that zerg has. And Ultras are still in the game as far as i know Edit: and you're argument with Muta/Ling/bling not working in lategame, well Marine tank hardly works in lategame. Should we buff that comp then so Terran has some lategame potential? infestor broodlord is not the only aggressive potential, of cause. I never said they are except in the case where PFs are set up and terran hard turtles. Ultras will not break split map PFs with their poor pathing and PFs totally make it even worse. you are the one who also suggested GGlord/winfestors when terran set up PFs. I also did not say infestor broodlord should get buff. I said Zerg should get another buff somewhere so they don't have to go infestors all the games.
sry, but there are good ways to go aggressive in the current metagame. Watch Leenocks ZvT, that guy has so many good aggressive strategies.
In split map mass stationary defense games you simply need siege weapons. That's basic Stationary defense design in all RTS games.
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On December 05 2012 19:35 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Flanks don't work lategame? How exactly does a tactic that gives you surround over your opponent's army "not work" in late game? Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:32 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:22 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Nope, im not in the same thought as you. I think you're grossly overstating things when you say that GGlord/winfestor amove is the only aggressive potential that zerg has. And Ultras are still in the game as far as i know Edit: and you're argument with Muta/Ling/bling not working in lategame, well Marine tank hardly works in lategame. Should we buff that comp then so Terran has some lategame potential? infestor broodlord is not the only aggressive potential, of cause. I never said they are except in the case where PFs are set up and terran hard turtles. Ultras will not break split map PFs with their poor pathing and PFs totally make it even worse. you are the one who also suggested GGlord/winfestors when terran set up PFs. I also did not say infestor broodlord should get buff. I said Zerg should get another buff somewhere so they don't have to go infestors all the games. You're just conveniently ignoring the fact that on split map economy, Zerg can remax and switch tech on the drop of a dime.
Heh, I'm pretty sure that all the zergs that are "pushed" to use BL/infestor lategame doesn't flank. For a very simple reason: it's not a composition which is meant to do that!
Time to explore and broaden the play, rather than rely on the same old thing, zergs.
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On December 05 2012 19:41 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 19:35 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Flanks don't work lategame? How exactly does a tactic that gives you surround over your opponent's army "not work" in late game? On December 05 2012 19:32 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:22 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:19 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:15 Solarist wrote:On December 05 2012 19:13 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 19:02 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:
[quote]
Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit Then explain how zergs held bio tank pushes with ling/bling/muta? Just one example off the top of my head: by setting up flanks with super fast units and good creep spread. A Zerg that doesn't flank is like a Terran that doesn't use medivac drops. Aside from Stephano, you hardly see flanks nowadays because Zergs simply don't have to. Hopefully this changes. On December 05 2012 18:56 Serpico wrote:On December 05 2012 18:52 Finnz wrote:
if muta ling bane is played properly its actually more effective than infestors. The problem with muta ling bane is that its a lot harder and apm intensive. The transitions from muta ling bane into the late game is what pretty much kills terran straight up if the zerg has done enough damage to the terran. So all the moaning about infestors being underpowered and what not is pretty silly. This change will be much better for spectators as well as just for playing the game. People need to understand how much infestors were ruining the starcraft 2 viewership. I think the pros, the guys who can make all the high level plays would have stayed with ling muta bane if that were the case. Infestors and fungal is just straight up better and less risky. The worst part of lings and banes is when you have to run them into tanks and marines and hope they dont all die before they get there. Being melee you have to risk losing large portions of your army before they get to even do a single thing, that's why it isn't fun playing with it. It's really stressful. You absolutely have to catch the terran off guard or have immaculate splits. Flank. Flank. Flank. With creep, Zergs get an awesome early warning system. It's also very cheap and easy for Zergs to hold xel'nagas and/or a couple lings running around the map to spot areas without creep and without xel'naga. So much map control just never put to use because Zergs can just fungal and a-move. the problem is not all the maps allow you to 'flank' and there comes a point when muta ling baneling just no longer are cost efficient enough. going back to the older maps, shakuras for example, or the newer maps in hots, Akilon Wastes. there aren't much space or room to flank. Once terran set up PFs and turtle hard, there is nothing a zerg can throw at terran to break that defense (ignoring hots new units) GGlord/winfestor perhaps? Or is the terran PF containing you at 14 mins? then you are on the same line of thought as me. Zerg are being pushed to use GGlord/winfestor. But zerg should get buff in other units so we don't HAVE to use GGlord/winfestor. flanking is awesome, ling baneling muta is awesome, baneling landmine is awesome. But it doesn't work late game, which is why it sucks. Zerg should get a buff in some other units so we don't have to go GGlord/winfestor. We need something that can help zerg to trade more efficiently so that we don't have to go back to the deathball again. Nope, im not in the same thought as you. I think you're grossly overstating things when you say that GGlord/winfestor amove is the only aggressive potential that zerg has. And Ultras are still in the game as far as i know Edit: and you're argument with Muta/Ling/bling not working in lategame, well Marine tank hardly works in lategame. Should we buff that comp then so Terran has some lategame potential? infestor broodlord is not the only aggressive potential, of cause. I never said they are except in the case where PFs are set up and terran hard turtles. Ultras will not break split map PFs with their poor pathing and PFs totally make it even worse. you are the one who also suggested GGlord/winfestors when terran set up PFs. I also did not say infestor broodlord should get buff. I said Zerg should get another buff somewhere so they don't have to go infestors all the games. You're just conveniently ignoring the fact that on split map economy, Zerg can remax and switch tech on the drop of a dime. Heh, I'm pretty sure that all the zergs that are "pushed" to use BL/infestor lategame doesn't flank. For a very simple reason: it's not a composition which is meant to do that! Time to explore and broaden the play, rather than rely on the same old thing, zergs.
Even a 10-15 supply worth of cracklings will do amazing damage. Even if it only serves to cut off reinforcements and/or to backstab economy. I know that zergs used to park roaches under BL/infestor deathballs in TvP to dissuade stalker blink ins. So it's not that they can't spare the supply.
Zergs really are not as limited as some people here wants to believe.
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When it comes to PvZ this change is crap. The range 8 doesnt mean anything as you wont have colossus ever in the frontline. Winfestors can still fungal your stalker/sentry/immortal from behind roach wall ... and if you want to focus them down with colossus you will expose them to being sniped by his ground army.
Imho it's bull ... although egg hp decrease was a much needed nerf imho.
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EPT
