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On December 05 2012 21:30 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 21:21 Antylamon wrote:On December 05 2012 21:16 Andr3 wrote:
You guys remember how much changed when immortals "ONLY" got a +1 range upgrade?
I think this patch might help a lot, I'm glad Blizzard is making ~small~ adjustments. And we all remember the rampage when Queens got +2 range. +1 range on immortal made a night and day difference because of other Protoss units that would block and prevent immortals from being able to fire. +2 range on queens also made a huge difference because they could go against the short ranged hellions much more effectively. -1 range on infestor will not be as huge a change because infestors are still very safe behind Broodlord range, broodlings. What makes infestors super safe isn't just their range, but also the fact that tanks have to unseige against broodlords. Tanks are the number 1 killer of infestors in TvZ. I'm hoping more ghosts will be employed due to the changes, since they're slightly less susceptible to broodlings (ie, they won't kill their own units) BUT, it's a a change in the right direction.
Let's wait a while before we say it didn't make much difference.
Before both the roach and immortal range + 1 people said exactly the same thing "it barely changes anything".
Then a bit later we saw how huge those changes actually were.
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On December 05 2012 19:01 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 18:56 SamsLiST wrote:On December 05 2012 18:50 ETisME wrote:On December 05 2012 18:47 Moochlol wrote:On December 05 2012 18:35 birchman wrote:
Let's see if this has any positive effect. It would be really nice to not see as many infestors for a while. Zerg is still going to make Infestor im afraid, they only way to cost effectively hold waves of good bio tank pushes. Also Infester is still the safest way to get to t3 against Toss. If anything you will see more of them to make up for the nerf. If some new game play comes from this patch I would be surprised. that's how I feel as well, strangely Zerg didn't get any kind of buff in other units to compensate a big nerf of their core unit lol Infestors got abused so much they are their "coreunit" now? are they not the "coreunit" now? you are telling me they are not part of infestor broodlord deathball? without infestors, there will be no zerg deathball at all
Infestors are still good, you act like they are REMOVED.
Another question you need to ask yourself is: is it normal that the race with the best macro options, has the best army? Ever dealt with broodlord infestor as terran???
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I don't like it. It still doesn't help against the "no rush 15 min" games. Atleast I can't see a big impact.
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On December 05 2012 21:36 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 21:30 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 21:21 Antylamon wrote:On December 05 2012 21:16 Andr3 wrote:
You guys remember how much changed when immortals "ONLY" got a +1 range upgrade?
I think this patch might help a lot, I'm glad Blizzard is making ~small~ adjustments. And we all remember the rampage when Queens got +2 range. +1 range on immortal made a night and day difference because of other Protoss units that would block and prevent immortals from being able to fire. +2 range on queens also made a huge difference because they could go against the short ranged hellions much more effectively. -1 range on infestor will not be as huge a change because infestors are still very safe behind Broodlord range, broodlings. What makes infestors super safe isn't just their range, but also the fact that tanks have to unseige against broodlords. Tanks are the number 1 killer of infestors in TvZ. I'm hoping more ghosts will be employed due to the changes, since they're slightly less susceptible to broodlings (ie, they won't kill their own units) BUT, it's a a change in the right direction. Let's wait a while before we say it didn't make much difference. Before both the roach and immortal range + 1 people said exactly the same thing "it barely changes anything". Then a bit later we saw how huge those changes actually were.
I think I explained pretty clearly why immortal and queen buff were a huge changes. Ah, I edited a bit to make it clearer.
The -1 range isn't as big a change because it doesn't have the kind of zero to hero (or in reverse for the infestor) dynamic. Ghosts snipe is what got buffed against infestors since tanks are still impotent to kill infestors when broodlords hit the field.
Here is the edited version for your convenience.
+1 range on immortal made a night and day difference because of other Protoss units that would block and prevent immortals from being able to fire. (edit: basically went from doing practically 0 dps to full dps)
+2 range on queens also made a huge difference because they could go against the short ranged hellions much more effectively. (edit: again, went from doing - 0 dps to full dps, since players used to be able to kite queens with hellions)
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Is the patch in effect yet?
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Blizzard ears have finally opened to hear out THE players. Oh, God, I thought dat day would never come
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Nice patch. STORM the EGGS !!!
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People are really funny talking about "patch zergs", they wouldnt pass diamond as zergs, but they dare insult the entire career of some pros because they're new? A guy named Inca made it to the finals of the most competitive tournament we got in SC2, he disappeared since because he's just bad, what race did he play? Oh... And I guess the immortal all in is fine, very balanced, if Blizzard keep listening to gold leagues butthurts and patching in consequence this game will never be stable, they just dont let people adapt to the meta and refine their play, they just patch whenever there's a switch in the winnings, it's actually terrible for the future of this game, temporary fixes but wont look at the fact that Zerg need fungals, an anti-micro spell to stay alive, and same for Protoss with forcefields, I just dont see how esport could last more than 2 years with such poor design in general, the hype will go away, people will slowly switch to mobas when all they'll watch on GSL is immortal allins vs zerg trying to brood infestor, even HotS wont fix the core problems, but hey, on the bright side, the gold leagues wont whine so much on battle.net forums!
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I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts.
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On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make?
Sigh, exactly, I've been presenting the differences and it just falls on deaf ears. These people cannot even point out -how- it could make a difference theoretically. They just assume it will make a huge difference because it happened with other units, when the other units were functioning on very different principles.
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On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make?
You start by saying that -2 on neural deleted the spell because Colossus had 9 range and NP 9
But you fail to see how Fungal going from 9 to 8 might be impactful against Colossi ?
Also, infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire
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Still doesn't fix that a bad zerg can max out on roaches by 11 minutes into the game and constantly deny you ever getting a third base safely, still doesnt stop lategame infestor brood lord being way too cos efficient.
Still means I can be 10x the skill of my zerg opponent and lose the game to one missed force field while he makes 100 mistakes and still a-moves to victory with his tier 3 army.
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On December 05 2012 22:37 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? Sigh, exactly, I've been presenting the differences and it just falls on deaf ears. These people cannot even point out -how- it could make a difference theoretically. They just assume it will make a huge difference because it happened with other units, when the other units were functioning on very different principles. all your theorycrafting is very nice, but someone like morrow already feels the difference (i thought he said that in this thread, i'll look it up). To be honest, i value his experience higher than your theories. Theorycrafting after testing is useful for understanding. Theorycrafting before testing is above all prone to error. Besides, keeping the possibility of having an impact open is way different than having blind faith in change. The point is you may be right, but you yourself don't actually know.
there you go:
On December 05 2012 20:43 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 20:38 SupLilSon wrote:
So has anyone had enough time to test out the changes to any degree? Mostly interested in any new dynamics with the Raven or Fungal range. just tested it in single player unit tester the fungal range change is definetly noticable in viking tank vs broodlord infestor scenarios as well as the spine infestor colossus forcefield one to add to that i just wanna point out +3 is the magic upgrade number for colossus to rape infested terran eggs in 2 shots, where as without upgrades or +2 it takes 3 shots. before patch with 0-0 it took 4 shots, so big difference there too
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On December 05 2012 21:36 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 21:16 Andr3 wrote:
You guys remember how much changed when immortals "ONLY" got a +1 range upgrade?
I think this patch might help a lot, I'm glad Blizzard is making ~small~ adjustments. +1 on immortals made them stop dancing behind other units, +2 on queens made a difference because helions were no longer viable against queens what does -1 on fungal change?
Give it a short time and see then ? Snipe will simply be amazing vs infestors.
On the highest play what seems like small tweeks can already make huge differences.
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You can generalise it like this: range reduced by 1/9 - caster 1/9 more vulnerable to attacks. Zergs already lose games when their infestors get too close and get picked off by ranged units or counterspells, that's going to be a more common sight from now on. It's a good balance change, hard to say if it'll be enough though.
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On December 05 2012 22:40 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? You start by saying that -2 on neural deleted the spell because Colossus had 9 range and NP 9 But you fail to see how Fungal going from 9 to 8 might be impactful against Colossi ? Also, infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire
Oh, poor "infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire". You try and snipe infestor while spliting marines and focusfire banelings. This assuming you are sieged.
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Great patch!! Seems like a good way to make mass infestor play useless without severely weakening the zerg midgame.
Now for the terrans saying the raven change is useless, consider the following:
It makes the transition from mech to late game mech much smoother. You don't have to dump a huge amount of gas for multiple starports to have an effective and quick transition. The 1 tech lab on the banshee producing starport can research corvid reactor while you start mining gas from the 4th. Then you can even start producing ravens out of 1 starport at 13-14 minutes so they can pool enough energy for HSM when the broodlords arrive. And then add additional starports as your income increases and the game turns to end game (and more air focused) compositions.
Also, this means that for bio players that want to incorporate ravens, they can only have 2 starports with tech labs (for the 2 upgrades that are left) and do not need to commit to 3 starports (plus the 150 extra gas cost). This can lead to a smoother transition that does not pin the terran in his base and nullifies all agression (aka no medivac and tank production). If the ravens are produced without the need of a 4 base economy they can be made much earlier, pool more energy and actually be effective without the need for the terran to turtle while the zerg player banks 5k/5k to switch into dozens of ultras.
(or anyway I hope it turns out to be that way)
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EPT
