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On December 05 2012 22:49 mrvidek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:40 Protosnake wrote:On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? You start by saying that -2 on neural deleted the spell because Colossus had 9 range and NP 9 But you fail to see how Fungal going from 9 to 8 might be impactful against Colossi ? Also, infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire Oh, poor "infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire". You try and snipe infestor while spliting marines and focusfire banelings. This assuming you are sieged. You're not reacting to the posts above you. You can be snide all you want about difficulty, but it's about possiblity of changing unit interactions, not difficulty. Your sentiments are an argument why this should make a difference more than if this makes any difference.
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On December 05 2012 22:49 mrvidek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:40 Protosnake wrote:On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? You start by saying that -2 on neural deleted the spell because Colossus had 9 range and NP 9 But you fail to see how Fungal going from 9 to 8 might be impactful against Colossi ? Also, infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire Oh, poor "infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire". You try and snipe infestor while spliting marines and focusfire banelings. This assuming you are sieged.
2011 calling, they want their QQ back.
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On December 05 2012 22:49 mrvidek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:40 Protosnake wrote:On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? You start by saying that -2 on neural deleted the spell because Colossus had 9 range and NP 9 But you fail to see how Fungal going from 9 to 8 might be impactful against Colossi ? Also, infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire Oh, poor "infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire". You try and snipe infestor while spliting marines and focusfire banelings. This assuming you are sieged.
If you arent sieged that's your problem, Fungal getting a -1 range force infestor to take a heavier punishment before being able to fungal anything now, that's a fact
No, I'm not saying anything deleted NP, you are.
No Im not, someone else did, , still doesnt change anything to what I said
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On December 05 2012 22:51 Notfragile wrote:
Great patch!! Seems like a good way to make mass infestor play useless without severely weakening the zerg midgame.
Now for the terrans saying the raven change is useless, consider the following:
It makes the transition from mech to late game mech much smoother. You don't have to dump a huge amount of gas for multiple starports to have an effective and quick transition. The 1 tech lab on the banshee producing starport can research corvid reactor while you start mining gas from the 4th. Then you can even start producing ravens out of 1 starport at 13-14 minutes so they can pool enough energy for HSM when the broodlords arrive. And then add additional starports as your income increases and the game turns to end game (and more air focused) compositions.
Also, this means that for bio players that want to incorporate ravens, they can only have 2 starports with tech labs (for the 2 upgrades that are left) and do not need to commit to 3 starports (plus the 150 extra gas cost). This can lead to a smoother transition that does not pin the terran in his base and nullifies all agression (aka no medivac and tank production). If the ravens are produced without the need of a 4 base economy they can be made much earlier, pool more energy and actually be effective without the need for the terran to turtle while the zerg player banks 5k/5k to switch into dozens of ultras.
(or anyway I hope it turns out to be that way)
What if Z goes for ultralisk? Isnt the raven too much of and investment at the 13 14 min hoping(fearing) the z goes broodlords? Remember without upgrade raven still needs time for energy.
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On December 05 2012 22:59 mrvidek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:51 Notfragile wrote:
Great patch!! Seems like a good way to make mass infestor play useless without severely weakening the zerg midgame.
Now for the terrans saying the raven change is useless, consider the following:
It makes the transition from mech to late game mech much smoother. You don't have to dump a huge amount of gas for multiple starports to have an effective and quick transition. The 1 tech lab on the banshee producing starport can research corvid reactor while you start mining gas from the 4th. Then you can even start producing ravens out of 1 starport at 13-14 minutes so they can pool enough energy for HSM when the broodlords arrive. And then add additional starports as your income increases and the game turns to end game (and more air focused) compositions.
Also, this means that for bio players that want to incorporate ravens, they can only have 2 starports with tech labs (for the 2 upgrades that are left) and do not need to commit to 3 starports (plus the 150 extra gas cost). This can lead to a smoother transition that does not pin the terran in his base and nullifies all agression (aka no medivac and tank production). If the ravens are produced without the need of a 4 base economy they can be made much earlier, pool more energy and actually be effective without the need for the terran to turtle while the zerg player banks 5k/5k to switch into dozens of ultras.
(or anyway I hope it turns out to be that way) What if Z goes for ultralisk? Isnt the raven too much of and investment at the 13 14 min hoping(fearing) the z goes broodlords? Remember without upgrade raven still needs time for energy.
You can still drop a seeker missile on infestors when they dont have any energy anymore (happens a lot when the zerg goes ultra). BOOM !
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On December 05 2012 22:49 mrvidek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:40 Protosnake wrote:On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? You start by saying that -2 on neural deleted the spell because Colossus had 9 range and NP 9 But you fail to see how Fungal going from 9 to 8 might be impactful against Colossi ? Also, infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire Oh, poor "infestor now outranged by ghost and more vulnerable to tank fire". You try and snipe infestor while spliting marines and focusfire banelings. This assuming you are sieged.
Well if terran dunno how to shift click action, yes it can be hard to do. lol :>
Good changes overall
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meh. I would've preferred they actually did something with the fungals... damage reduction, smaller radius, remove the rooting effect or even allow slow movements.
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On December 05 2012 22:59 mrvidek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:51 Notfragile wrote:
Great patch!! Seems like a good way to make mass infestor play useless without severely weakening the zerg midgame.
Now for the terrans saying the raven change is useless, consider the following:
It makes the transition from mech to late game mech much smoother. You don't have to dump a huge amount of gas for multiple starports to have an effective and quick transition. The 1 tech lab on the banshee producing starport can research corvid reactor while you start mining gas from the 4th. Then you can even start producing ravens out of 1 starport at 13-14 minutes so they can pool enough energy for HSM when the broodlords arrive. And then add additional starports as your income increases and the game turns to end game (and more air focused) compositions.
Also, this means that for bio players that want to incorporate ravens, they can only have 2 starports with tech labs (for the 2 upgrades that are left) and do not need to commit to 3 starports (plus the 150 extra gas cost). This can lead to a smoother transition that does not pin the terran in his base and nullifies all agression (aka no medivac and tank production). If the ravens are produced without the need of a 4 base economy they can be made much earlier, pool more energy and actually be effective without the need for the terran to turtle while the zerg player banks 5k/5k to switch into dozens of ultras.
(or anyway I hope it turns out to be that way) What if Z goes for ultralisk? Isnt the raven too much of and investment at the 13 14 min hoping(fearing) the z goes broodlords? Remember without upgrade raven still needs time for energy.
I believe it was Taeja that made a crap tons of Ravens against ultralisk and won the game. The raven was used to kill off drones and hatcheries with auto-turrets. Since zerg didn't go broodlords, there were no corruptors on the field and lack of anti-air. The ravens pretty much won him the game.
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Very nice point. But then you surley must have seen the 24-39 TvZ numbers in CODE S. But that's just a pathetic little tourney.
Same source mate.
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Take a minute and look at the specifics, where you can see in that same thread that TvZ is at 43,5% / 56,5%.
The TvP ratio balances that back out but as there are no Zergs in a TvP you cannot count that for your numbers.
Also take a look at IPL5 (excluding TvP):
TvZ: 29-49
PvZ: 31-41
Code S is equally worse (where the game *should* be most balanced)
TvZ: 24-39
PvZ: 10-17
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On December 05 2012 22:42 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:37 plogamer wrote:On December 05 2012 22:29 Scrubwave wrote:On December 05 2012 22:24 jumai wrote:
I find it weird how many people assume -1 range to fungal won't be impactful when the -2 range to neural parasite completely removed even researching it from the entire zvp gamespan between colossus count hitting 2 and mothership construction. I mean, I know using NP causes a greater window of exposure for the infestors, but that's a *huge* amount of the game that NP got kicked out of. Even an analogous, but much less extreme outcome has room to make significant impact.
Infestors are still good, but we should notice a difference once everyone adjusts. Because NP with range 9 had the same range as colossi, for example? That change made a difference. What difference does -1 range on fungal make? Sigh, exactly, I've been presenting the differences and it just falls on deaf ears. These people cannot even point out -how- it could make a difference theoretically. They just assume it will make a huge difference because it happened with other units, when the other units were functioning on very different principles. all your theorycrafting is very nice, but someone like morrow already feels the difference (i thought he said that in this thread, i'll look it up). To be honest, i value his experience higher than your theories. Theorycrafting after testing is useful for understanding. Theorycrafting before testing is above all prone to error. Besides, keeping the possibility of having an impact open is way different than having blind faith in change. The point is you may be right, but you yourself don't actually know. there you go: Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 20:43 MorroW wrote:On December 05 2012 20:38 SupLilSon wrote:
So has anyone had enough time to test out the changes to any degree? Mostly interested in any new dynamics with the Raven or Fungal range. just tested it in single player unit tester the fungal range change is definetly noticable in viking tank vs broodlord infestor scenarios as well as the spine infestor colossus forcefield one to add to that i just wanna point out +3 is the magic upgrade number for colossus to rape infested terran eggs in 2 shots, where as without upgrades or +2 it takes 3 shots. before patch with 0-0 it took 4 shots, so big difference there too
You seriously don't understand how queen and immortal buff made them go from doing no damage to full damage and support everyone using those situations that are completely apples to oranges?
Morrow never said how noticeable it is. Don't try to twist his words for your own purpose if you really do respect him. Do you really think he will equate this change to the immortal range buff or the queen range buff?
And really, as far as ZvT is concerned, IT eggs are used to initiate by giving zerg 3 second window to close in when all seige tanks fire their first volley on IT eggs. It matters little how much damage they can take. Infested terran is a bigger problem for protoss than terrans usually.
I repeat: I'm not saying there is no difference. I'm saying that the difference will never be as big as it was with immortal buff or the queen buff that people keep talking about. Don't hide behind morrow and man up with your own arguments on why it's gonna make a big impact.
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Tbh this feels like Blizzard trying to polish a turd. There will be problems as long as those god awful game design decisions stay in the game.
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On December 05 2012 23:12 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 22:59 mrvidek wrote:On December 05 2012 22:51 Notfragile wrote:
Great patch!! Seems like a good way to make mass infestor play useless without severely weakening the zerg midgame.
Now for the terrans saying the raven change is useless, consider the following:
It makes the transition from mech to late game mech much smoother. You don't have to dump a huge amount of gas for multiple starports to have an effective and quick transition. The 1 tech lab on the banshee producing starport can research corvid reactor while you start mining gas from the 4th. Then you can even start producing ravens out of 1 starport at 13-14 minutes so they can pool enough energy for HSM when the broodlords arrive. And then add additional starports as your income increases and the game turns to end game (and more air focused) compositions.
Also, this means that for bio players that want to incorporate ravens, they can only have 2 starports with tech labs (for the 2 upgrades that are left) and do not need to commit to 3 starports (plus the 150 extra gas cost). This can lead to a smoother transition that does not pin the terran in his base and nullifies all agression (aka no medivac and tank production). If the ravens are produced without the need of a 4 base economy they can be made much earlier, pool more energy and actually be effective without the need for the terran to turtle while the zerg player banks 5k/5k to switch into dozens of ultras.
(or anyway I hope it turns out to be that way) What if Z goes for ultralisk? Isnt the raven too much of and investment at the 13 14 min hoping(fearing) the z goes broodlords? Remember without upgrade raven still needs time for energy. I believe it was Taeja that made a crap tons of Ravens against ultralisk and won the game. The raven was used to kill off drones and hatcheries with auto-turrets. Since zerg didn't go broodlords, there were no corruptors on the field and lack of anti-air. The ravens pretty much won him the game.
He pretty much won that game anyhow because he always kicked the zergs 4th and 5th and the zerg never tech switched so taeja had the perfect composition against ultra infestor with a lot of marauders + ravens that dont die because he failed to build antiair. Of course if you build only units that hit the ground and let your infestors die all the time way too easily, then ravens are pretty good because they dont ever die.
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oh hai tvp has a lot to do with tvz !!! almost the same :D
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Looks like a perfect patch to me, we will see.
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On December 05 2012 23:14 Thezzy wrote:Take a minute and look at the specifics, where you can see in that same thread that TvZ is at 43,5% / 56,5%. The TvP ratio balances that back out but as there are no Zergs in a TvP you cannot count that for your numbers. Also take a look at IPL5 (excluding TvP): TvZ: 29-49 PvZ: 31-41 Code S is equally worse (where the game *should* be most balanced) TvZ: 24-39 PvZ: 10-17
Neh...it's just Z having 2 better tournaments. No imbalance here.
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On December 05 2012 23:21 Godwrath wrote:oh hai tvp has a lot to do with tvz !!! almost the same :D
learn to read. these are overall winrates. in PvZ P is even favored and even grubby and nony tweeted that they are surprised to see that P is favored.TvZ is pretty heave Z favored while TvP is pretty heavy T favored.
just tested it myself. some people might not understand or havent actually played with or against the new nerfed infestor.
the changes are HUGE!!!!! like omfg. range 8 to range 6 stalker/marauder/immortals or even higher ranged tanks/colossus/ghosts/feedbacks?! fungal is nerfed very hard with this. it is SO MUCH easier to kill infestors now. the range from a stalker/immo/marauder to snipe an infestor went from range 3 to range 2. that is so close to attacking range, especially with blinking or stimming just 2-4 units ahead to snnipe infestors. there will be a lot more dead infestors, believe me.
IT changes is huge also but i am fine with that one since throwing 240 ITs from 30 infestors shouldnt be viable, so its a nice change vs mass IT play.
most people wont get how hard of a nerf these changes are until they see it on top level play with their own eyes. this will make the infestor a lot weaker (not too weak obv).
now i like to see a +2 rangeupgrade or sth. like that for the hydra. gogo blizzard! 
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On December 05 2012 23:24 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 23:21 Godwrath wrote:oh hai tvp has a lot to do with tvz !!! almost the same :D learn to read. these are overall winrates. in PvZ P is even favored and even grubby and nony tweeted that they are surprised to see that P is favored.TvZ is pretty heave Z favored while TvP is pretty heavy T favored. just tested it myself. some people might not understand or havent actually played with or against the new nerfed infestor. the changes are HUGE!!!!! like omfg. range 8 to range 6 stalker/marauder/immortals or even higher ranged tanks/colossus/ghosts/feedbacks?! fungal is nerfed very hard with this. it is SO MUCH easier to kill infestors now. the range from a stalker/immo/marauder to snipe an infestor went from range 3 to range 2. that is so close to attacking range, especially with blinking or stimming just 2-4 units ahead to snnipe infestors. there will be a lot more dead infestors, believe me. IT changes is huge also but i am fine with that one since throwing 240 ITs from 30 infestors shouldnt be viable, so its a nice change vs mass IT play. most people wont get how hard of a nerf these changes are until they see it on top level play with their own eyes. this will make the infestor a lot weaker (not too weak obv). now i like to see a +2 rangeupgrade or sth. like that for the hydra. gogo blizzard!
Are you that slow ? I know those are overall winrates. That's why i am laughing my ass off when you are talking about overall winrates like an argument for the current zerg nerf when TvZ winrates are highly zerg favored, hence why i try to recall you about "PvT". You are just whining.
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EPT
