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On December 05 2012 16:03 Zanzabarr wrote:
miniscule changes really. Winfestor GGlord will still reign supreme in lategame, and all zergs will still want to go that army always. The problem with fungal has always been the chain root high damage counter everything reality of the spell, especially when combined with Infested Terrans. A lot of zerg have such bad infestor control that their infestors are within 3-8 range when fungalling units anyways (sometimes melee range even).
Exactly, it's not like Zergs are taking full advantage of the massive 9 range anyway
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I kinda wish they'd just nerf fungal radius by a little bit. The effect just seems obviously too potent, and this would be a simple way to directly tone it down. I don't know why they're trying out all these roundabout nerfs first. Minor tweaks to damage or radius is the way to go about this without screwing up balance IMO. The spell's so damn good you really don't have to worry about it becoming obsolete if you just tone it down a bit.
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On December 05 2012 15:54 Scrubwave wrote:
Baby steps forward are still steps forward. Even if the baby is retarded. And is missing half its limbs.
No satisfaction until the Infestor is nerfed into the dust I guess.
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On December 05 2012 15:18 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 15:08 avilo wrote:On December 05 2012 14:46 a176 wrote:On December 05 2012 14:15 avilo wrote:On December 05 2012 14:11 bhfberserk wrote:
The seeker missile change is awesome. Now terran players can choose between a defensive spell "PDD" or offensive missile to gain grounds. A choice you can make between 125 energy and 100 Um, once again you have a misconception or a wrong notion. Nothing changed with seeker missile. You still will die if you attempt to make ravens at a point in the game where there's momentum and both players are attacking/defending. The change makes it so Terran doesn't research a 1 time 150/150 cost. Nothing else changed. The unit was in fact not buffed, which is a shame. The problem is the accessibility and building the raven often does not pay itself off...there's too many situations where you build it and will have no energy for anything useful (1 autoturret? come on). So yeah...stop saying it's a buff to seeker missile guys. It's not. + Show Spoiler +When blizzard wants to wake up and actually make the raven be able to pay itself off, make -> Corvid reactor increases raven starting energy to 100. Call me in 2014 when they give in and realize this change is the one that makes the raven more usable without overpowering it or changing any other values in the game If you want a complete analysis of why the changes they have done to the raven don't actually affect lategame or do much, read this thread I previously made here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383437 blizzard understands the psychological effects of patches very well. patch 1.4.2 only reduced upgrades by a measly 25 to 50 minerals but all of a sudden toss learnt to rush to 3/3 is a pretty good strat. now i will wait for inevitable scan+seeker missile worker abuse. Psychological thing? What? The change you are referencing globally affected every Protoss ground unit...has nothing to do with psychology. It has to do with the change actually, you know...changing stuff. No one is ever going to get a raven for "scan + seeker abuse." You live in some dream world where games are decided by epic microz battles between 2 blink stalkers and 1 raven lol. no i was just referencing your arguement on how this didnt actually change seeker missile. referring to the fact there was no actual change to protoss upgrades aside from the fact you could start them half a second earlier than you normally would. now more players will experiment with seeker and im sure will find a way to abuse its autohoming, unavoidable attack.
And those arguments have nothing to do with each other in the slightest. And it did in fact not change seeker missile. Newsflash: players have experimented with ravens and seeker for the past year. It does not work for all reasons mentioned by every Terran ever - too inaccessible, requires minutes at a time to get.
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I don't know what effect these changes will have on the game but ugh on the fungal change.
The ability doesn't need a nerf; it needs to be completely redesigned. Even if they get it balanced in it's current form, it's still going to be an utterly boring ability that turns the entire game into a snoozefest. Lowering the range of fungal by one doesn't make it less boring. I'd rather see it do something like a 25% slow over the same area that prevents burrow, blink, and loading into shuttles. Same goal of pinning units so zerg can surround but it forces zerg to actually make other units and still allows the other player's skill (micro) to have an effect on the game. I don't know; just throwing ideas out. Almost anything would be more exciting than an AE root.
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On December 05 2012 03:18 Deckard.666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:16 GolemMadness wrote:
One range reduction on fungal and less egg health? That's not going to make anybody use infestors less. +2 range on queens? That's barely going to have an effect in the game. ...
I'm not saying the nerf won't have any significance, but you can't equate a 67% buff to a 12% nerf.
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nooooooooooooooooo waaayyyy.... no seeker missile? are you for real right now? guess ill have to see for myself
oh yeah and, down with infestors.
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On December 05 2012 16:03 Zanzabarr wrote:
miniscule changes really. Winfestor GGlord will still reign supreme in lategame, and all zergs will still want to go that army always. The problem with fungal has always been the chain root high damage counter everything reality of the spell, especially when combined with Infested Terrans. A lot of zerg have such bad infestor control that their infestors are within 3-8 range when fungalling units anyways (sometimes melee range even).
if your opponents are using fungal within melee range then I don't think balance should even be mentioned in your argument. you realize you can micro your units to kill off infestors (rather than them auto-targetting the eggs/other units) if they are too close. I think one of the problems before-hand was that fungal was holding units a bit too far away to target the infestors.
I agree that infestor/BL is still going to be too strong, but this gives units like the ghost and HT a slight buff until HotS comes out when they can actually make drastic changes to make the game play more exciting.
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On December 05 2012 16:17 ultratorr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 16:03 Zanzabarr wrote:
miniscule changes really. Winfestor GGlord will still reign supreme in lategame, and all zergs will still want to go that army always. The problem with fungal has always been the chain root high damage counter everything reality of the spell, especially when combined with Infested Terrans. A lot of zerg have such bad infestor control that their infestors are within 3-8 range when fungalling units anyways (sometimes melee range even). Exactly, it's not like Zergs are taking full advantage of the massive 9 range anyway
Yes, but now T's and P's have a better chance of fighting against infestor comps with feedback/storm and emp/snipe. They can't just get rid of the infestor or the infestor/broodlord synergy since it is the only viable playstyle available to zerg in WoL. The design is certainly still flawed (fungal un-fun and low skill, zerg still has no viable macro alternative to festor/bl) but hopefully the balance will be improved.
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On December 05 2012 16:31 supernovice007 wrote:
I don't know what effect these changes will have on the game but ugh on the fungal change.
The ability doesn't need a nerf; it needs to be completely redesigned. Even if they get it balanced in it's current form, it's still going to be an utterly boring ability that turns the entire game into a snoozefest. Lowering the range of fungal by one doesn't make it less boring. I'd rather see it do something like a 25% slow over the same area that prevents burrow, blink, and loading into shuttles. Same goal of pinning units so zerg can surround but it forces zerg to actually make other units and still allows the other player's skill (micro) to have an effect on the game. I don't know; just throwing ideas out. Almost anything would be more exciting than an AE root.
Agreed 100%. Even if this patch balances everything out, it'll be still boring to watch like PvZ.
We need more units that encourages micro and various engagements throughout the map, not just units that contribute to the 200/200 battle. I want to see bases being taken and denied all over the map, small battles that gives little advantages throughout the game, and games won with multitasking, mechanics and game sense and not just because one person messed up the big engagement.
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Glad to see they are finally starting to tackle the issue of the infestor. That being said, I'm not sure if adjusting the range is the right way to go about it. I can see timing pushes being almost too strong in TvZ, as infestors are going to be more susceptible to tank fire. I think the whole spell needs to be reworked, similar to Plague was in BW.
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i know people been saying this patch is so little and wont do much but i think 1 range and IT nerf should make a different. not much, but its there. even tho late game zerg is still very good they can win by other factors beside infestors alone. this patch will help terrans for sure but by how much? maybe zerg will lose another infestor or 2 at most when they get 1 range closer to fungal, but thats about it imo. IT egg should make mech stronger. i think 1 range is a huge nerf. since infestor has to get 1 range closer. tanks now has a 2 more range lead and marine has 1 range timing to split and thus can gun down infestors easier. its a snowball effect, a small 1 tho. overall im satisfied.
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Interesting. Now terran can start incorporating raven into late game mech comp.
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"First step", "baby step"... i like to see P and T taking advantage of pro gamers problem to demands the end of the infestor (= rape incoming for other zerg than Life or Stephano).
I know they just want to roll on us without a chance to loose.
If they do more P will be unstopable.
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On December 05 2012 03:53 LgNKane wrote:maybe this will shut up all the balance whining  though ravens in late game will be overpowered, just watch.
Pretty much my thoughts. I don't think removing the seeker missile research was necessary at all. Terrans usually had too much gas in late game, we're gonna see seeker missiles everywhere -.-
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On December 05 2012 16:57 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:53 LgNKane wrote:maybe this will shut up all the balance whining though ravens in late game will be overpowered, just watch. Pretty much my thoughts. I don't think removing the seeker missile research was necessary at all. Terrans usually had too much gas in late game, we're gonna see seeker missiles everywhere -.-
Maybe the logic is just completely lost on me but if the upgrade was irrelevent by the time people started building Ravens then why would removing it suddenly cause a insane incrase to amount of ravens being built.
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On December 05 2012 16:57 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:53 LgNKane wrote:maybe this will shut up all the balance whining though ravens in late game will be overpowered, just watch. Pretty much my thoughts. I don't think removing the seeker missile research was necessary at all. Terrans usually had too much gas in late game, we're gonna see seeker missiles everywhere -.-
....
Sir. Do you even play the game?
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On December 05 2012 16:42 ViktorSC wrote:
nooooooooooooooooo waaayyyy.... no seeker missile? are you for real right now? guess ill have to see for myself
oh yeah and, down with infestors.
I hope you understand it is "no seeker missile research needed" and not "no seeker missile". Just in case as the text is slightly ambiguous.
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On December 05 2012 17:00 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 16:57 samurai80 wrote:On December 05 2012 03:53 LgNKane wrote:maybe this will shut up all the balance whining though ravens in late game will be overpowered, just watch. Pretty much my thoughts. I don't think removing the seeker missile research was necessary at all. Terrans usually had too much gas in late game, we're gonna see seeker missiles everywhere -.- .... Sir. Do you even play the game?
Lol yes I do. I don't play terran but I see so many terrans not taking many of their gases in the late game of most of their m-u. Of course it depends on their unit composition but gas is rarely their limiting factor I mean.
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On December 05 2012 16:57 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:53 LgNKane wrote:maybe this will shut up all the balance whining though ravens in late game will be overpowered, just watch. Pretty much my thoughts. I don't think removing the seeker missile research was necessary at all. Terrans usually had too much gas in late game, we're gonna see seeker missiles everywhere -.-
lol, what?!? this makes no sense....so Terrans late game has excess of gas? and this free spell of 150/150 now frees up use of seeker missile? If this were true Terrans would invest in this upgrade. and by the way...terran has a excess of minerals late game not gas
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EPT
