EPT[Dec 4] Wings of Liberty Balance patch - Page 28
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
it shouldnt be, stop suggesting it. HT first won't be standard. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
I think Raven's spells should deploy much faster though. Seeker missile is still more of a suicide mission when it requires getting up very close and waiting the small delay before it actually goes off. If they are going to make anything have a "chargeup" time or not be completely instant, then it should be a positional spell (you choose the place, not the target). Storms and fungals would be great if they were projectiles of some sort, but stuff like snipe, feedback (currently doesn't), seeker missile all seem like they should have an instant release. | ||
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Canx
Singapore85 Posts
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Ambidexter
United States23 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:18 Deckard.666 wrote: +2 range on queens? That's barely going to have an effect in the game. ... This. Sometimes the best balance patches seem too small to matter. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Sad that blizzard knows the problem word for word from Terrans is the problem is you don't have 2-3 minutes worth of time to gain energy. Not having to upgrade seeker changed nothing lategame. -_- gl Terrans. edit: Turns out infested terrans do lose HP after they hatch, not sure how it works, they start with 80 hp but infested terrans pop with only 50 total HP. Not too optimistic still. Makes infested terrans weaker HP wise, fungal still the same. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:53 avilo wrote: Ok, for people that dunno what they're talking about here: Raven seeker missile removed: What does this do? It does nothing for Terran lategame. It saves Terran a 1 time cost of 150/150 that was affordable in lategame in the first place. The upgrades were never the problem with ravens. The problem is the reaction time and preparation needed when building ravens. You often times have to prepare them 2-3 minutes in advance in a serious game, because seeker missile takes so long to get energy for. The seeker being removed affects none of the above core issue with the raven being able to pay itself off more frequently to make it a more useful unit. The only changes that occur is when Terran goes 1/1/1 now in TvP, but mostly TvT, with the 1 raven you make you'll possibly have 1 seeker missile. So basically this is a terrible change from blizzard because it does not address the issue with the raven, and it adversely affects 2/3 match-ups that the change is not even targeted at. Infested Terran Egg HP reduced from 100 to 70. What does this do? Lategame TvZ, Lategame PvZ now psi storm and collosus more comfortably counter infested Terran spam. Tanks/collosus with upgrades will end up 2 shotting eggs thrown out which is a huge difference. Does this change much? Well, it's arguable because it depends on the volume of infested Terran eggs and other units You have to remember, the egg HP is reduced, not the infested Terran HP. If the eggs hatch, infested terrans pop out with full HP, meaning the change is targetted purely at more eggs going down when those 5000 eggs are thrown out. Better than nothing. Fungal growth range reduced from 9 to 8. What does this do? The fungal growth range reduction is arguably the biggest change because in any RTS game when you mess with the range of a core unit or a unit that's used often it can easily swing balance 1 way or the other (you've seen the results of this with the +2 queen range). It's a good change, tanks/collosus/ghost/templar may often times kill more infestors coming into range of your units to fungal you. But keep in mind once again... Fungal hasn't been changed. It still roots your units, it still does the same damage, still has the same duration. So whenever your units are snared it's the exact same scenario as pre-patch. So it's arguable whether this change will do anything. Better than nothing once again. I honestly think a lot of Terran players will be confused or simply read "Terran buff" when it comes to ravens and not realize it's not actually a buff to the unit in any meaningful way for lategame, or for the rest of the game The infestor nerfs...thank god...and they don't want to make the same mistake they did with ghosts/reapers where they nerf the unit and then it's utterly trash. Overall, the end goal of the changes obviously is so the answer to everything is not "build an infestor." Dunno if these changes do that, but they're a start. I've been saying for awhile that Blizzard is doing a terrible job with SC2 when it comes to balancing and game design. People often say who would take over, and it is posts like me that make me thing there are plenty of people in the community who would do so much better. They just make so more sense than the posts we get from Blizzard, that talk about Psi Storm vs Infested Terran Eggs... No one researches Psi Storm in PvZ unless they are facing Mutalisks, and if they are facing Mutalisks, then Zerg isn't getting Infestors in the mid-game because they are both gas intensive units. So this situation is limited to games where Zerg opens Mutalisks then transitions to Infestors and decides to spam Eggs rather than use Fungal. Now I understand that the egg health reduction helps in lots of other ways, but the fact they highlighted Psi Storm seems foolish to me. How often do we really see Psi Storm in PvZ? I've never seen anyone complain about Psi Storm vs eggs anyway. How did this come up? Why is this what they were thinking about? They are so many other pressing issues... | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:02 GreyKnight wrote: it shouldnt be, stop suggesting it. HT first won't be standard. He just said it should be "high on the list to get" not first. Since storm kills eggs now and there's a range reduction, hts will deal with infestors significantly better. Pretty good deal, I almost never felt like my templar were any better than just collosus lasers except when the zerg miscontrols badly and I land way more feedbacks than I should. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:08 TheFrankOne wrote: He just said it should be "high on the list to get" not first. Since storm kills eggs now and there's a range reduction, hts will deal with infestors significantly better. Pretty good deal, I almost never felt like my templar were any better than just collosus lasers except when the zerg miscontrols badly and I land way more feedbacks than I should. I don't think you fully understand. So I can get High Templars and counter Infestors when I have energy, but not Roaches... or I can get Colossus and counter both Infestors and Roaches and not be limited by energy. Remember this egg health reduction and Fungal Growth range reduction helps Colossus too... Psi Storm just isn't that good against Roaches. Colossus are. Tough choice. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:11 bhfberserk wrote: The seeker missile change is awesome. Now terran players can choose between a defensive spell "PDD" or offensive missile to gain grounds. A choice you can make between 125 energy and 100 Um, once again you have a misconception or a wrong notion. Nothing changed with seeker missile. You still will die if you attempt to make ravens at a point in the game where there's momentum and both players are attacking/defending. The change makes it so Terran doesn't research a 1 time 150/150 cost. Nothing else changed. The unit was in fact not buffed, which is a shame. The problem is the accessibility and building the raven often does not pay itself off...there's too many situations where you build it and will have no energy for anything useful (1 autoturret? come on). So yeah...stop saying it's a buff to seeker missile guys. It's not. + Show Spoiler + When blizzard wants to wake up and actually make the raven be able to pay itself off, make -> Corvid reactor increases raven starting energy to 100. Call me in 2014 when they give in and realize this change is the one that makes the raven more usable without overpowering it or changing any other values in the game If you want a complete analysis of why the changes they have done to the raven don't actually affect lategame or do much, read this thread I previously made here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383437 | ||
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Sumahi
Guam5609 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17734 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:03 Blargh wrote: I guess Blizzard saw the amount of bitching and moaning in tournament chats (IPL/GSL?) over winfestors and brolords that they HAD to do something. A relief, I must say. I think Raven's spells should deploy much faster though. Seeker missile is still more of a suicide mission when it requires getting up very close and waiting the small delay before it actually goes off. If they are going to make anything have a "chargeup" time or not be completely instant, then it should be a positional spell (you choose the place, not the target). Storms and fungals would be great if they were projectiles of some sort, but stuff like snipe, feedback (currently doesn't), seeker missile all seem like they should have an instant release. THIS!!!! If they want to keep seeker missle so damn slow then it needs to hit an area like psi storm, fungal, emp, so that you can aim it! Only instant cast spells should target a unit, otherwise it should target a location! You should be able to lead the target with slow spells, and then it will ACTUALLY take some skill! The other side of this is that then the spell could miss completely if they just don't move into it if you're leading the target, so they need to buff it to compensate for this. But I would love to see seeker missle be an area attack instead of target a unit. | ||
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skyyan
United States74 Posts
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:15 avilo wrote: Um, once again you have a misconception or a wrong notion. Nothing changed with seeker missile. You still will die if you attempt to make ravens at a point in the game where there's momentum and both players are attacking/defending. The change makes it so Terran doesn't research a 1 time 150/150 cost. Nothing else changed. The unit was in fact not buffed, which is a shame. The problem is the accessibility and building the raven often does not pay itself off...there's too many situations where you build it and will have no energy for anything useful (1 autoturret? come on). So yeah...stop saying it's a buff to seeker missile guys. It's not. + Show Spoiler + When blizzard wants to wake up and actually make the raven be able to pay itself off, make -> Corvid reactor increases raven starting energy to 100. Call me in 2014 when they give in and realize this change is the one that makes the raven more usable without overpowering it or changing any other values in the game If you want a complete analysis of why the changes they have done to the raven don't actually affect lategame or do much, read this thread I previously made here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383437 blizzard understands the psychological effects of patches very well. patch 1.4.2 only reduced upgrades by a measly 25 to 50 minerals but all of a sudden toss learnt to rush to 3/3 is a pretty good strat. now i will wait for inevitable scan+seeker missile worker abuse. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:08 BronzeKnee wrote: I've been saying for awhile that Blizzard is doing a terrible job with SC2 when it comes to balancing and game design. People often say who would take over, and it is posts like me that make me thing there are plenty of people in the community who would do so much better. They just make so more sense than the posts we get from Blizzard, that talk about Psi Storm vs Infested Terran Eggs... No one researches Psi Storm in PvZ unless they are facing Mutalisks, and if they are facing Mutalisks, then Zerg isn't getting Infestors in the mid-game because they are both gas intensive units. So this situation is limited to games where Zerg opens Mutalisks then transitions to Infestors and decides to spam Eggs rather than use Fungal. Now I understand that the egg health reduction helps in lots of other ways, but the fact they highlighted Psi Storm seems foolish to me. How often do we really see Psi Storm in PvZ? I've never seen anyone complain about Psi Storm vs eggs anyway. How did this come up? Why is this what they were thinking about? They are so many other pressing issues... Umm...Psi storm is quite common PvZ atm whether they're going mutalisks or not. A fairly popular way to play right now is to go for chargelots immortals and high templars vs infestor players. I can't comment on the effectiveness of this patch but i can assure you that psi storm is much more common than u think. | ||
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