• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 23:13
CET 05:13
KST 13:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket11Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA12
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [Game] Osu! Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1980 users

[Dec 4] Wings of Liberty Balance patch - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
913 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 18 46 Next All
PerryHooter
Profile Joined September 2012
Sweden268 Posts
December 04 2012 20:51 GMT
#301
Feels like pretty big changes too me. You should bear in mind that infestors are quite large, and high energy ones often gets stuck behind those who just used their energy. Bearing that in mind, the range change of fungal is significant.

Despite being a protoss, I feel that these changes might be to big even. I'd rather see several small steps spread out over many patches, than a big one. Gonna be interesting too see the pro scene develop no matter what.
"The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt"
Vapaach
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland994 Posts
December 04 2012 20:52 GMT
#302
All the 3 changes are primarily effective in tvz. Terrans should find playing vs infestors more manageable now, and that is great. It is hard for me to realize how substantial the -1 range for fungals actually is but it seems reasonable, now infestors have to be more exposed to cast the spell.
If you never try you never know. Sase - Mana - TLO - WhiteRa - Naniwa - Sheth - HuK
WigglingSquid
Profile Joined August 2011
5194 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-04 20:53:46
December 04 2012 20:53 GMT
#303
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.
JuiceBoxHero
Profile Joined January 2011
117 Posts
December 04 2012 20:54 GMT
#304
We did it guys, we successfully whined our way to some changes. Mission accomplished. Id like to honestly thank blizzard though. 100% serious they responded to concerns, and...and...Im just really choked up right now. THANK YOU BLIZZARD. Are people seriously complaining about this? Really? They did something go play the damn game and figure out if it worked.
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
December 04 2012 20:55 GMT
#305
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.

I wont deny it does little for lategame, but how do you think it will mess up early/midgame? Because of 150/150 more resources it messes up the midgame? Really I dont see it happening, especially on a unit like the raven.
Lunares
Profile Joined May 2010
United States909 Posts
December 04 2012 20:55 GMT
#306
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


I think the idea is that late game ravens are good enough, or maybe not. But it's hard to tell since it's so hard to get there. Removing seeker missile makes it easier to get ravens earlier -> keep your spellcasters alive and you can maybe transition better to that air army. We'll see if that is true or not. They might be reworking seeker missile in HotS anyway.
Champi
Profile Joined March 2010
1422 Posts
December 04 2012 20:56 GMT
#307
well thats a start :D

dunno if 1 range reduction was the correct nerf. but time will tell!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 04 2012 20:56 GMT
#308
On December 05 2012 05:52 Vapaach wrote:
All the 3 changes are primarily effective in tvz. Terrans should find playing vs infestors more manageable now, and that is great. It is hard for me to realize how substantial the -1 range for fungals actually is but it seems reasonable, now infestors have to be more exposed to cast the spell.


70HP eggs (instead of the first proposed 80) seems very Storm-specific to me.
And -1range helps 9range Templar and Colossi a ton to kill Infestors. Just think of the difference between rang 9 NP and range 7 NP
nAgeDitto
Profile Joined April 2011
United States428 Posts
December 04 2012 20:57 GMT
#309
On December 05 2012 05:51 EiBmoZ wrote:
way to break all the fucking replays from novemeber, blizzard you fucks


Chill out?

I think the changes are potentially appropriate. Not too much big changes (maybe the infestor egg change is pretty big but it seems necessary)
Leetley
Profile Joined October 2010
1796 Posts
December 04 2012 20:58 GMT
#310
On December 05 2012 03:22 ShiroKaisen wrote:
Just in time for Proleague.

Aww yeah, line up em' terrans thank you very much.
SuperYo1000
Profile Joined July 2008
United States880 Posts
December 04 2012 20:58 GMT
#311
On December 05 2012 05:25 GreyKnight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 05:15 SuperYo1000 wrote:
On December 05 2012 05:08 Existor wrote:
For some info:

- Siege Tanks kill Infested Eggs with 3 shots instead 4. With vechicle weapon upgrades they always can beat eggs with 2 shots.
- IT eggs can be killed by storms now for ~3.5 seconds
- IT eggs can be killed by colossus by 2 shots instead 3
- Planetary Fortress kills IT eggs for 2 shots too instead 3



uuhhh i thought colossus attack was 15x2....I think what you meant to say is 3 shots instead of 4


a collosus attack does 15 x2 becausse 2 beams



yes thats what I was pointing out. 2 shots from a colossus does 60 damage. he has it listed as being able to kill a IT egg with 70hp. Its just a simple error. It kills eggs in 3 shots now instead of 4
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-04 21:01:47
December 04 2012 21:00 GMT
#312
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile.

It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
Exquisite
Profile Joined November 2012
United States11 Posts
December 04 2012 21:00 GMT
#313
On December 05 2012 05:46 ProfessionalNoob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 04:45 azzih wrote:
Infestor for sure is too strong in certain szenarios and maybe in the lategame. But against some tactics every nerf to infestors will be huge.
Like Protoss Sentry-Immortal-allin or a mech-terran especially in midgame. Both really hard to deal with, already right now. It will be even harder to handle after that nerfs.


Infestors wont help with immortal sentry ever anyways, unless youre facing silver league immortal sentry allins, you cant get infestors in time anyways.


I thought so too, until I saw Nerchio vs fraer game 1 round of 12 on cloud kingdom of the last Dreamhack. He had infestor of 3 base at 10:30 and used his lings to stall the toss army to get them in time for defense.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 04 2012 21:04 GMT
#314
On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile.

It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think


Think of all the money you will save on scans for creep and how you will not need to deal with burrowed infestors dumping crap on your main army. A single raven is worth its weight.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WigglingSquid
Profile Joined August 2011
5194 Posts
December 04 2012 21:06 GMT
#315
On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile.

It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think

Sorry, I actually didn't mean "mess up", it was a rather strong wording for what I intended. What I actually meant is that such a change will make it easier to work a handful of new "cheeky" builds/compositions into the current mix.
LavaLava
Profile Joined January 2012
United States235 Posts
December 04 2012 21:07 GMT
#316
On December 05 2012 05:45 Sissors wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 05:41 EnhancedZ wrote:
I really feel like mutas will be phased out from ZvT with the raven buff...

As someone who tried seeker missiles vs mutas often enough, let me tell you how to counter it:

Select all your mutas. Fly directly into the terran air. Congratulations, you just killed all the hostile air (And ground units below it) due to friendly fire of the seeker missiles.

Additionally as shown many times now, the only effect of the removal of the upgrade is that you dont have to spend 150/150. While that is appreciated, you really cant tell me that makes a serious difference. Seeker missiles do not become available faster without the upgrade.


You weren't microing correctly. Mutas should have to fly away from your missiles, so if you fly away too, he won't be able to get on the other side of the missile and drag it toward you. It should just land on him when he goes toward you.

And if he is coming right at you, spread out, you just drop PDDs and turrets right as he gets there. You should also have vikings if he's going mutas.
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
December 04 2012 21:08 GMT
#317
On December 05 2012 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile.

It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think


Think of all the money you will save on scans for creep and how you will not need to deal with burrowed infestors dumping crap on your main army. A single raven is worth its weight.

Indeed. I see Hellion Raven replacing Hellion Banshee as TvZ opener. Free creep contain + PDD works even against Queen ground attack now. Follow up with Banshee added in could do some serious damage too.
Rui.S
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada92 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-04 21:10:21
December 04 2012 21:08 GMT
#318
On December 05 2012 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile.

It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think


Think of all the money you will save on scans for creep and how you will not need to deal with burrowed infestors dumping crap on your main army. A single raven is worth its weight.

a single raven is definitely not worth it's weight, you have to constantly baby it if you want to actually have it around with your own army. to make a single raven, you also lose out on about 4 medivacs, which are MUCH more useful

edit:^^ why would hellion raven suddenly replace hellion banshee as the tvz opener if it hadn't before?
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
December 04 2012 21:08 GMT
#319
Woohoo, these changes are pretty decent, as Zerg player I approve! The more we see the Infestor as support unit instead of I-kill-everything caster, the better the game will be.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
December 04 2012 21:08 GMT
#320
On December 05 2012 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:
On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit.


Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile.

It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think


Think of all the money you will save on scans for creep and how you will not need to deal with burrowed infestors dumping crap on your main army. A single raven is worth its weight.


I imagine that if early ravens are coming off of Hellion Banshee expands into bio mech or even mech we will see ravens and tanks become very friendly.
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 18 46 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 17m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 123
ProTech27
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2960
Leta 282
Sexy 37
Hm[arnc] 29
yabsab 11
Icarus 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever134
NeuroSwarm87
LuMiX0
League of Legends
JimRising 647
Reynor30
Other Games
summit1g7407
C9.Mang0242
Trikslyr59
CosmosSc2 24
trigger2
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 42
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 56
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki10
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo446
• Stunt239
Other Games
• Scarra719
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
3h 17m
Zoun vs Classic
SHIN vs TriGGeR
herO vs Reynor
Maru vs MaxPax
WardiTV Korean Royale
7h 47m
Replay Cast
18h 47m
RSL Revival
1d 3h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 7h
SC Evo League
1d 8h
IPSL
1d 12h
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
BSL 21
1d 15h
TerrOr vs Aeternum
HBO vs Kyrie
RSL Revival
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
2 days
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
BSL 21
2 days
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
Replay Cast
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-16
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.