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On December 05 2012 06:08 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:04 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit. Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile. It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think Think of all the money you will save on scans for creep and how you will not need to deal with burrowed infestors dumping crap on your main army. A single raven is worth its weight. Indeed. I see Hellion Raven replacing Hellion Banshee as TvZ opener. Free creep contain + PDD works even against Queen ground attack now. Follow up with Banshee added in could do some serious damage too.
I don't think so. If you don't kite, lings are going to kill hellions pretty fast.
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Glad to see such a fast response after the tard "Z is fine in numbers" statement into 2 ZvZ finals.
Still, those changes are not gonna change the Z lategame superiority. Z will still always have more banked opponent in any even game.
And Infestor will still be a masseable unit. Infested terran cost should be nerfed to avoid that. And root must be remove for the sake of the game. Micro is a beauty to watch and root just fuck it up.
But i agree that the best choice is to make the big balance changes in Hots to then make a strong nerf infestors so Z's can rely in consistently other units.
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Hate the IT change. Their most useful property is that they soak up dmg. If they don't do that they will fall off into obscurity again.
They are also virtually immobile, if you're fighting IT's then your doing something wrong. If you are forced to engage at its at your base, you must have lost an earlier engagement. (Besides for that stupid IT timing Z's were doing 6 months ago at the 3rds of Toss, though that never worked anyway)
The Problem has always been with Fungal, would have liked to seen Fungal as a projectile, (fairly fast projectile so Mutas aren't OP in ZvZ, but promotes their use more) and minus 5 dmg.
The range on Fg really only means that Zergs need to be slightly more careful with Infestors.
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On December 05 2012 06:11 Cyanocyst wrote:
Hate the IT change. Their most useful property is that they soak up dmg. If they don't do that they will fall off into obscurity again.
They are also virtually immobile, if you're fighting IT's then your doing something wrong. If you are forced to engage at its at your base, you must have lost an earlier engagement. (Besides for that stupid IT timing Z's were doing 6 months ago at the 3rds of Toss, though that never worked anyway)
The Problem has always been with Fungal, would have liked to seen Fungal as a projectile, (fairly fast projectile so Mutas aren't OP in ZvZ, but promotes their use more) and minus 5 dmg.
The range on Fg really only means that Zergs need to be slightly more careful with Infestors.
I don't know if you know this, you probably do because of the use of 'Fungal' in your post. But there's this cool spell that makes units not able to move. Generally that spell is used in tandem with infested terran in order to kill certain units immobilized by Fungal growth. I'm not quite sure if I'm doing something wrong when some of my units are unable to move and get rolled by infested Terran.
For meching players as well it's ridiculously hard to back out of an engagement in the time it takes to unsiege and GTFO you've just committed half of your army to death so you might as well stay and see how well you can trade.
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On December 05 2012 06:07 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:45 Sissors wrote:On December 05 2012 05:41 EnhancedZ wrote:
I really feel like mutas will be phased out from ZvT with the raven buff... As someone who tried seeker missiles vs mutas often enough, let me tell you how to counter it: Select all your mutas. Fly directly into the terran air. Congratulations, you just killed all the hostile air (And ground units below it) due to friendly fire of the seeker missiles. Additionally as shown many times now, the only effect of the removal of the upgrade is that you dont have to spend 150/150. While that is appreciated, you really cant tell me that makes a serious difference. Seeker missiles do not become available faster without the upgrade. You weren't microing correctly. Mutas should have to fly away from your missiles, so if you fly away too, he won't be able to get on the other side of the missile and drag it toward you. It should just land on him when he goes toward you. And if he is coming right at you, spread out, you just drop PDDs and turrets right as he gets there. You should also have vikings if he's going mutas.
what league are you
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On December 05 2012 06:11 Cyanocyst wrote:
Hate the IT change. Their most useful property is that they soak up dmg. If they don't do that they will fall off into obscurity again.
Their most useful property is definitely the 9-13 DPS.
On December 05 2012 06:11 Cyanocyst wrote:
They are also virtually immobile, if you're fighting IT's then your doing something wrong.
Being Fungaled?
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United States7166 Posts
smart changes given their approach atm is minimal adjustments
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Nice changes. Would have liked to see a change to the stun portion of fungal instead, make it a slow so micro is actually doable to a degree. Also Mothership immune to neural just like the ultralisk is would be nice.
Good start though. HOTS looking more promising.
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On December 05 2012 06:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit. Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile. It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think Think of all the money you will save on scans for creep and how you will not need to deal with burrowed infestors dumping crap on your main army. A single raven is worth its weight.
Creep clearing is a valid point, but that has been true all along - However, Seeker Missile change has little to no impact on this. For the midgame, it's still a starport without a reactor that you have to commit to not produce medivacs, which potentially means ~4 less medivacs (1,4 production cycles á 2 medivacs to be exact) for the midgame, thats huge. If a zerg scout you going early raven, that they know are not going to be a direct threat to them for at least a minute and a half, they should either just kill you or go heavy macro.
It might be more significant in lategame though, but in regards to how TvZ early/midgame works, there should be no change
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On December 05 2012 06:06 WigglingSquid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit. Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile. It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think Sorry, I actually didn't mean "mess up", it was a rather strong wording for what I intended. What I actually meant is that such a change will make it easier to work a handful of new "cheeky" builds/compositions into the current mix.
and diversity is bad? how?
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pretty excited about the raven upgrade.. can't wait to get back to playin.
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I'm curious to see what pros think of these changes, has anyone really high level posted about the patch yet? Sorry if I missed it.
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On December 05 2012 06:06 WigglingSquid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit. Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile. It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think Sorry, I actually didn't mean "mess up", it was a rather strong wording for what I intended. What I actually meant is that such a change will make it easier to work a handful of new "cheeky" builds/compositions into the current mix.
The game is so boring right now it's actually dropped below the previous low point of 5rax reaper. I think "a handful of cheeky builds" is about the last thing anyone should be afraid of.
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You mean infestors can be killed by Colossi before getting in range for fungal? MADNESS!
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On December 05 2012 03:58 narkissos wrote:
Ryung our generations Rosa Parks.
LOL I was just thinking that, Ryung's rant has been heard! But I think they should weaken the damage of fungal, not being able to move is bad enough, then you got bangelings and ultralisk running into you.
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On December 05 2012 06:27 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:06 WigglingSquid wrote:On December 05 2012 06:00 ELA wrote:On December 05 2012 05:53 WigglingSquid wrote:
Not bad, but I am perplexed by their choice for the raven. Removing the upgrade will mess up early/midgame and do very little for the lategame, where the real problem is not researching SM but the fact that using it basically means going the way of the baneling with a much more expensive unit. Nah, it's still a considderable investment for T to get a Raven with a Seeker on the field - It's a techlab on your port instead of reactor, which means less medivacs, then 60gameseconds to build it and then 75 more seconds for it to actually have energy to cast a Missile. It's still too longterm of an investment for it to be viable in the mid I think Sorry, I actually didn't mean "mess up", it was a rather strong wording for what I intended. What I actually meant is that such a change will make it easier to work a handful of new "cheeky" builds/compositions into the current mix. The game is so boring right now it's actually dropped below the previous low point of 5rax reaper. I think "a handful of cheeky builds" is about the last thing anyone should be afraid of.
no.. 5 rax reaper and 4 gate were both worse than the current meta
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On December 05 2012 06:11 Cyanocyst wrote:
Hate the IT change. Their most useful property is that they soak up dmg. If they don't do that they will fall off into obscurity again.
They are also virtually immobile, if you're fighting IT's then your doing something wrong. If you are forced to engage at its at your base, you must have lost an earlier engagement. (Besides for that stupid IT timing Z's were doing 6 months ago at the 3rds of Toss, though that never worked anyway)
The Problem has always been with Fungal, would have liked to seen Fungal as a projectile, (fairly fast projectile so Mutas aren't OP in ZvZ, but promotes their use more) and minus 5 dmg.
The range on Fg really only means that Zergs need to be slightly more careful with Infestors.
I wish my sieged tanks could run away from ITs.
The egg tank too much damage, that's why they nerf it in case.
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Infestor nerf is only really for ZvP midgame, where sentry forcefield range will be larger than infestor's fungal growth range. When it gets to lategame infestor broodlord armies, there will be almost no difference.
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EPT
