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Am I wrong in saying that people in general were fairly confused about the Queen buff when it came out. I think even Idra said that it was nice but wasn't really sure why it was made. As a particle physicist I do nothing BUT data analysis so...
1. Putting things in a plot and reading the numbers off means very little unless you give some measure of the uncertainty on that number. One needs statistically significant results otherwise it's meaningless. I wanna see uncertainties in every freaking "statistic" presented. The GSL statistics are cute and interesting but if the sample that is used is tiny, the numbers literally mean nothing.
2. Where can one get access to the raw data? Does liquipedia collate these and present them in a nice format or is there a LOT of leg-work involved?
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On December 05 2012 00:45 MasterJay wrote:
Am I wrong in saying that people in general were fairly confused about the Queen buff when it came out. I think even Idra said that it was nice but wasn't really sure why it was made. As a particle physicist I do nothing BUT data analysis so...
1. Putting things in a plot and reading the numbers off means very little unless you give some measure of the uncertainty on that number. One needs statistically significant results otherwise it's meaningless. I wanna see uncertainties in every freaking "statistic" presented. The GSL statistics are cute and interesting but if the sample that is used is tiny, the numbers literally mean nothing.
2. Where can one get access to the raw data? Does liquipedia collate these and present them in a nice format or is there a LOT of leg-work involved? tlpd comes closest i think? not sure though.
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On December 05 2012 00:33 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't. 1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them. On December 04 2012 23:40 keglu wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it. Nope. Fungal prevents all micro for the targeted units for 4seconds. Huge burst damage that instantly kills units (f.e. siege tanks) prevents all micro. So basically you dont agrre that fungal prevents micro and in the next sentence you say fungal prevents micro. Really strong logic. Also thanks for enlighting me that dead units cant be microed, did not know that.
Ahm, no? Where did you read that I said fungal doesn't prevent ANY micro? I'm just saying that preventing something to be done is not a bad thing. It's what positional play does. It prevents you from going somewhere. It's what microed marines do. They prevent you from hitting them. It's what walls do. They prevent you from attacking stuff behind them or running past them.
I.e: Fungal is not a bad thing. Not for gameplay, not for balance, not for game design.
On December 05 2012 00:43 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 00:22 Big J wrote:On December 05 2012 00:01 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't. 1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them. Obviously the problem is that the bolded part is not a realistic situation, and that the effectiveness of fungal and chain fungal in particular is so overwhelming that it creates a huge disparity between the damage a well-rounded Terran composition can do and what a Zerg army with infestors can do. It's imbalance to the very core definition of the word, and it's underwhelming to watch as a spectator. wtf? Do we see siege tanks kill infestors? Yes all the time. Do we see small groups of bio stimming forward and marauders mixed in, exclusively to counter infestors? Yes, anytime a Terran plays biocentric in ZvT. Do we see stalkers blinking forward to snipe infestors? Of course! Do we see Colossi standing at the frontline to attack Infestors (and spines) from the same range as they can fungal while actually not really caring about 40 (shield) damage. Yes we do! Do people feedback Infestors? Anytime they add templar in the lategame. All of that stuff is being done and is very effective. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage. I see you defending infestors and zerg the whole damn time. The only thing I want to show you are STATISTICS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385829
Oh fuck off... I'm saying that there are BALANCE AND GAMEPLAY problems with mass Infestor numbers.
It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage.
But does that mean that everything about Zerg and the Infestor is a problem???
I don't know what else you want? Can this make you happy?
"Imba, imba, imba. Nerf Infestors by 89 HP, remove fungal, remove ITs, remove Broodlords, remove creep, remove queens, remove zerg. QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ. Imba, imba, imba."
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I really loved the OP, ironic, sarcastic, satiric...or whatever..it's just plain truth from the first line to the last.
Really zerg should apoligize for the last year, for every game they've stolen and for the 2 (even more) leagues gained despite their lack of any skill.
I dont care at all about the conspiracy part, i just hope blizzard deeply and sincerely apologizes for queen and infestor buff and reverts them asap so we can play a FAIR tvz again (And see how long you can safely amove left and right without being owned for how bad you play).
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On December 05 2012 00:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 00:33 keglu wrote:On December 04 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't. 1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them. On December 04 2012 23:40 keglu wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it. Nope. Fungal prevents all micro for the targeted units for 4seconds. Huge burst damage that instantly kills units (f.e. siege tanks) prevents all micro. So basically you dont agrre that fungal prevents micro and in the next sentence you say fungal prevents micro. Really strong logic. Also thanks for enlighting me that dead units cant be microed, did not know that. Ahm, no? Where did you read that I said fungal doesn't prevent ANY micro? I'm just saying that preventing something to be done is not a bad thing. It's what positional play does. It prevents you from going somewhere. It's what microed marines do. They prevent you from hitting them. It's what walls do. They prevent you from attacking stuff behind them or running past them. I.e: Fungal is not a bad thing. Not for gameplay, not for balance, not for game design. Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 00:43 Snowbear wrote:On December 05 2012 00:22 Big J wrote:On December 05 2012 00:01 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't. 1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them. Obviously the problem is that the bolded part is not a realistic situation, and that the effectiveness of fungal and chain fungal in particular is so overwhelming that it creates a huge disparity between the damage a well-rounded Terran composition can do and what a Zerg army with infestors can do. It's imbalance to the very core definition of the word, and it's underwhelming to watch as a spectator. wtf? Do we see siege tanks kill infestors? Yes all the time. Do we see small groups of bio stimming forward and marauders mixed in, exclusively to counter infestors? Yes, anytime a Terran plays biocentric in ZvT. Do we see stalkers blinking forward to snipe infestors? Of course! Do we see Colossi standing at the frontline to attack Infestors (and spines) from the same range as they can fungal while actually not really caring about 40 (shield) damage. Yes we do! Do people feedback Infestors? Anytime they add templar in the lategame. All of that stuff is being done and is very effective. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage. I see you defending infestors and zerg the whole damn time. The only thing I want to show you are STATISTICS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385829 Oh fuck off... I'm saying that there are BALANCE AND GAMEPLAY problems with mass Infestor numbers. Show nested quote +It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage. But does that mean that everything about Zerg and the Infestor is a problem??? I don't know what else you want? Can this make you happy? "Imba, imba, imba. Nerf Infestors by 89 HP, remove fungal, remove ITs, remove Broodlords, remove creep, remove queens, remove zerg. QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ. Imba, imba, imba."
You're not really contributing much to the discussion. He asked you to provide numbers, and then you admit there are balance and gameplay problems. Then you state that you disagree with him wanting you to completely nerf Zerg to oblivion, when he's not even asking for any specific nerfs yet.
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United States1330 Posts
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Hey BoSs, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, so the only thing I really have to say is this- if players really were starting to 'figure out' Infestor heavy zerg play, wouldn't we see win rates starts to even out instead of getting further in Zerg's favor? I feel like all the 'pre-hive' timings are getting figured out rather than just now starting to work. And, to me anyway, it's all beside the point since fungal is horrible boring to watch compared to ling / bling / muta. Obviously this is 100% based on my opinion, but I'm fairly confident that if ZvT win rates were where they are at now, but instead of Infestor Broodlord Zerg's were going Ling Bling Muta with a gradual transition into Hive there wouldn't be nearly so many complaints.
I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment about Terran being able to go mass marine if Zerg didn't have fungal. Zerg would have to adapt to the Terran skill (splitting in this case) by developing their own skills, such as setting up a flank, using small taskforces of Zerglings to pick off across map rallies, counter attack whenever Terran leaves their base, ect. And each of these things forces Terran to develop new skills, and so on and so forth. This was why Marine / Tank vs Ling / Bling / Muta was so much fun to watch- the tactical aspect of the game was simply thrilling. Of course Terran was favored at this time, but I feel like new maps + the queen buff would at least bring the match-up back to a balance.
That being said, in a world of Infestor based Zerg armies, Leenock is the one Zerg I always know will give me a quality game worth watching in any match up  The very very top Zergs don't rely exclusively on passive play and Infestors, players like Leenock, Life and Violet definitely have other unique aspects to their play (Violet for example really impressed me with his constant counter attacks in his series vs Polt).
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On December 05 2012 00:56 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 00:54 Big J wrote:On December 05 2012 00:33 keglu wrote:On December 04 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't. 1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them. On December 04 2012 23:40 keglu wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it. Nope. Fungal prevents all micro for the targeted units for 4seconds. Huge burst damage that instantly kills units (f.e. siege tanks) prevents all micro. So basically you dont agrre that fungal prevents micro and in the next sentence you say fungal prevents micro. Really strong logic. Also thanks for enlighting me that dead units cant be microed, did not know that. Ahm, no? Where did you read that I said fungal doesn't prevent ANY micro? I'm just saying that preventing something to be done is not a bad thing. It's what positional play does. It prevents you from going somewhere. It's what microed marines do. They prevent you from hitting them. It's what walls do. They prevent you from attacking stuff behind them or running past them. I.e: Fungal is not a bad thing. Not for gameplay, not for balance, not for game design. On December 05 2012 00:43 Snowbear wrote:On December 05 2012 00:22 Big J wrote:On December 05 2012 00:01 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't. 1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them. Obviously the problem is that the bolded part is not a realistic situation, and that the effectiveness of fungal and chain fungal in particular is so overwhelming that it creates a huge disparity between the damage a well-rounded Terran composition can do and what a Zerg army with infestors can do. It's imbalance to the very core definition of the word, and it's underwhelming to watch as a spectator. wtf? Do we see siege tanks kill infestors? Yes all the time. Do we see small groups of bio stimming forward and marauders mixed in, exclusively to counter infestors? Yes, anytime a Terran plays biocentric in ZvT. Do we see stalkers blinking forward to snipe infestors? Of course! Do we see Colossi standing at the frontline to attack Infestors (and spines) from the same range as they can fungal while actually not really caring about 40 (shield) damage. Yes we do! Do people feedback Infestors? Anytime they add templar in the lategame. All of that stuff is being done and is very effective. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage. I see you defending infestors and zerg the whole damn time. The only thing I want to show you are STATISTICS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385829 Oh fuck off... I'm saying that there are BALANCE AND GAMEPLAY problems with mass Infestor numbers. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage. But does that mean that everything about Zerg and the Infestor is a problem??? I don't know what else you want? Can this make you happy? "Imba, imba, imba. Nerf Infestors by 89 HP, remove fungal, remove ITs, remove Broodlords, remove creep, remove queens, remove zerg. QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ. Imba, imba, imba." You're not really contributing much to the discussion. He asked you to provide numbers, and then you admit there are balance and gameplay problems. Then you state that you disagree with him wanting you to completely nerf Zerg to oblivion, when he's not even asking for any specific nerfs yet.
Where did he ask me to provide numbers? He showed me numbers.
I admited it BEFORE his post, in the post he quoted. In the line I quoted.
Forget about the last part of my last post. I'm just getting annoyed that people keep on being so stupdily black-and-white.
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It just looks like your daily tinfoil conspiracy but damn it. He really seems to have a point. Must. resist. the. patterns . . .
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Since the ovie/queen buff, speaking for myself, kinda lost interest into watching zvp / zvt games. Until that patch, zvx games were quite fun to watch. Now? Booooooring.
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Hmm. I am guessing OP is satirical, but he does state quite a few points with a straight face backed by (questionable) statistics. Anyway, whether satirical, serious, troll, or something else this thread needs a post from me me me meeee.
For people still saying that terrans just need more time to figure zerg out, please also take into consideration that zergs can also use time to improve their builds. We've seen some zerg players cut 10-20-30-40seconds off their hive timings from showing to showing, hitting Hive at earlier and earlier points, while remaining safe against all that is thrown their way (outside of WonWonWon). We've also seen certain midgame kill-builds spring up, because zerg gets three bases saturated earlier than a year ago and can afford early bust timings against both terran and protoss playing for a third base (muta-ling-bling vs terran; roach-ling-infestor(-corruptor) vs protoss).
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seems like someone gets raped by zerg everytime.. :D:D
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On December 05 2012 01:01 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Hey BoSs, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, so the only thing I really have to say is this- if players really were starting to 'figure out' Infestor heavy zerg play, wouldn't we see win rates starts to even out instead of getting further in Zerg's favor? I feel like all the 'pre-hive' timings are getting figured out rather than just now starting to work. And, to me anyway, it's all beside the point since fungal is horrible boring to watch compared to ling / bling / muta. Obviously this is 100% based on my opinion, but I'm fairly confident that if ZvT win rates were where they are at now, but instead of Infestor Broodlord Zerg's were going Ling Bling Muta with a gradual transition into Hive there wouldn't be nearly so many complaints. I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment about Terran being able to go mass marine if Zerg didn't have fungal. Zerg would have to adapt to the Terran skill (splitting in this case) by developing their own skills, such as setting up a flank, using small taskforces of Zerglings to pick off across map rallies, counter attack whenever Terran leaves their base, ect. And each of these things forces Terran to develop new skills, and so on and so forth. This was why Marine / Tank vs Ling / Bling / Muta was so much fun to watch- the tactical aspect of the game was simply thrilling. Of course Terran was favored at this time, but I feel like new maps + the queen buff would at least bring the match-up back to a balance. That being said, in a world of Infestor based Zerg armies, Leenock is the one Zerg I always know will give me a quality game worth watching in any match up The very very top Zergs don't rely exclusively on passive play and Infestors, players like Leenock, Life and Violet definitely have other unique aspects to their play (Violet for example really impressed me with his constant counter attacks in his series vs Polt).
BOss just makes up random statements and assumes them to be true (NO terrans would win less than 50% in GSL if they began massing marines only even if zergs weren't allowed to build infestors).
Also Gumiho didn't figure out anything against life. He outplayed LIfe so hard, and even then it took way to long time for him to finish the game.
Just look at the goddamn game and notice all the mistakes and suboptimal decisions Life made that game. I can probably point to a game where a terran in the beta lost to a zerg even though tanks did 60 damage to everything back then... Through Boss's logic I guess we can conclude that 60 damage tanks are balanced and were figured out back then.
Same logic could be used for reapers etc.
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That there is actually people who answer that seriously make me lose all hope for humanity.
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On December 05 2012 01:57 Godwrath wrote:That there is actually people who answer that seriously make me lose all hope for humanity.
Whatever happened to "read the entire post before replying"
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On December 04 2012 21:11 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:06 JediMasterBETTY wrote:On December 04 2012 20:55 Shady Sands wrote:On December 04 2012 20:52 JediMasterBETTY wrote:On December 04 2012 20:18 mrvidek wrote:On December 04 2012 19:38 JediMasterBETTY wrote:On December 04 2012 19:09 theman1213 wrote:On December 04 2012 11:26 theman1213 wrote:
bla bla zerg op coz hyun won 14 ipl fight clubs- This. I totaly agree with you man. yea right, zerg op coz huyn won 14 ipl fight clubs in a row.. you can look at it another way, u know: in the last 14 ipl fight clubs, no zerg except HuyN won!! wow! he just is doing very well in IPL fight club. Another thing, in 14 finals he only met 1 zerg, the other 13 finalists were mostly P and some T. HyuN and Life are the only 2 zergs that made it to IPL fight club finals in the last 14 weeks!! another thing, let's look at last month major tournaments (I mention the first and 2nd prize): WCS pvp creator vs parting for USD 100k/40k GSL zvz Sniper vs HyuN USD 42k/17k IPL5 zvz leenock vs violet USD 40k/20k WCG's pvp final parting vs adelscott for USD 25k/10k IEM Singapore's tvp sting vs grubby final for USD 6.5k/3.3k Dreamhack winter's pvt hero vs taeja final for USD 37k/15k Protoss total earnings: USD 215.3k wcs 100+40 wcg 25+10 IEM 3.3 dh: 37 Zerg total earnings: USD : 119k gsl 42+17 ipl5 40+20 Terran total earnings: USD : 21.5k IEM 6.5 dh: 15 Not to mention IPTL season 1 where in the finals only parting, mvp and squirtle won games, with a price of USD 9k so that kindof goes to either P or T. So what's op again? Sure fungal is good, but so is bunker, medivac, marauder, so is forcefield and immortal, vortex or any other thing u can think correctly executed. Just try to play the game, infestor broodlord is not by far imba. Harass works great against it. Try not to be biassed. These are my thoughts (EU master zerg). You must be kidding. Or at least i hope u posted in the wrong thread by mistake. Just because 2 protoss got into WCS final and won A LOT of money means P>Z overall. Oh cool. This means protoss is 10x better than terran. guess not. Try again. No, it doesnt mean P>Z overall. But neither does HyuN's IPL fight club or 2 zvz finals mean Z>P overall. From my personal experience, i have the best win rate in zvz. Of course this is not relevant, but check the pro win rates. You will find them quite balanced: GSL November Code S: PvZ 50.0% TvZ 53.1% GSL November Code A: PvZ 56.00% TvZ 51.85% How is Z op when it has a subunitary WLR?? Moreover, the graphs in Ver's post show that foreigners don't win much vs koreans as terran. That's because current foreigner terrans aren't in that good of a shape. I mean... lucifron? thorzain? not really ... When terran had a 65% win ratio in tvz (a year ago) it was normal. Now that zerg wins ALMOST 50% of the games vs terran Z is op. Please explain the logic, coz just saying "zerg op" "infestor op" "you gotta be kidding me" "no skill a move race" really is not a logical explanation. Oh hai there new social media smurfbot. Earning your 40 bucks for setting up this account, I see. Can you please explain how you know how to find specific league stats in TLPD while only having two posts on teamliquid? Hi there rude human. I never had a TL account because i generally dont post (well i never posted on TL, .. i did post 2-3 comments on reddit and that's it). I have internet access, i follow and play sc:bw and now sc2 since 1998. Finding statistics is very easy: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_5 > go to Code S Statistics / Code A Statistics. Anything else i can help you with? Thanks for caring. Now can we get back on topic and can you say something constructive like for example that you agree with me, or if not, bring some real proof that zerg is op. followed your link and instructions Code S TvZ: 18-34 (34.62%) Code A TvZ: 3-6 (33%) this is for the most recent season of GSL. Edit: Code S PvZ: 9-14 (39.13%) Code A PvZ: 5-3 (62.5%) Would be interested to see win rates on 2 Rax and Immortal / Sentry All-in to see how much those contributed (saw a lot of both this season).
AHAHAHAH!
Bit old but this is too funny not to quote :D
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Terran will rise again.
Not today, not tomorrow but at some point in the future.
Zergs fear the day of serious Nerf and be prepared.
Terran will rise again.
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Yes, mutaling ZvT was far more enjoyable. Too bad it's not possible anymore. Double engineering bays, correct turret positioning, good timings, hellion oppenings make it impossible for it to work. That said, it sometimes does for a short amount of time or with an all in, when T goes for greedy builds or greedy hellion banshee that got designed because of what zergs are doing.
I'm not defending or saying that infestor is OK. But with current game knowledge it would be impossible to deal with things, for example, near-200 mech army without infestor, since it comes out faster than broodlords and there's hellion harass. You'd have to go mass roach and do timings, weird stuff and hope that terran messes up with sieging or control. If not, zerg loses.
"DURR, infestor is dumb!" And I'd agree for the most part. But 3 months left until new expansion where infestor's relevance hopefully isn't so high and zerg has multiple options, not just infestor. ABOUT TIME WE HEAT UP THE INFESTOR DEBATE!
Give it a rest for the last months of WoL... Damnit. You should be more focused on thinking about what Terran lacks in HOTS. They are nearly unchanged and widow mines being pretty bullshit is carrying them. (Infestor deja-vu) I mean, beta is out there so people think, right? Much better than wasting your thoughts on what has been said 150'000'006 times over and over again.
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Thus if we want ESPORTS to succeed, fungal must be improved even more so that white Zergs are all but guaranteed podium places. Otherwise, as we have seen at MLG, IPL, and GSL, once only Korean Zergs remain everyone quits watching.
Man i want a good balance for the game not for countries, i want to watch very good games and i dont care if player are koreans or from other countries.You're suggesting an easy game for dummies.I do not agree.
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EPT
