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cant tell if hes being serious or not lol But totally agree with most of the stuff from the first half. The conspiracy stuff sounds surprisingly convincing hahaha
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On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:22 monk. wrote:
I already told Ver that probably only a very small fraction of people reading it will actually get it.
You were right, oh so right.
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Someone else may have pointed this out in the thread, so apologize if I missed it.
First of all, of course I agree that the zerg imbalance is apparent, and as an SC2 spectator I can tell you that I have been bored with most of the tournaments lately. I'm not completely sure if that's just me getting bored with the game or if it has to do with the nature of the current zerg turtle meta game.
Anyway, I just wanted to point a small criticism of your post. Your basic thesis as I have read it is that zerg imbalance is causing the decline in viewership due to the stagnant and boring nature of the zerg "4-base infestor turtle into hive" gameplay. This is a plausible thesis on it's face, although I think it might take more justification that a few simple bar graphs. It could be that people are just bored with the game generally, although I tend to think the imbalance thesis is more plausible. Anyway, I think you go wrong, however, when you then claim that blizzard is intentionally maintaining the imbalance in order to foster foreigner success, which tends to boost viewership. I'm not sure how you would reconcile that contradiction: why would Blizzard intentionally maintain a status quo that apparently reduces overall viewership in favor of a temporary effect (foreigner success) that does not offset the prior negative effect? Perhaps they're simply not paying attention to either (or one of) the effects, which would be a more plausible hypothesis in my view. I think it's wrong to hypothesize both incompetence and malevolence in this case. I personally think the former is more probable given blizzard's history.
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On December 04 2012 23:32 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't.
1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate...
2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage.
3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them.
On December 04 2012 23:40 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it.
Nope. Fungal prevents all micro for the targeted units for 4seconds. Huge burst damage that instantly kills units (f.e. siege tanks) prevents all micro.
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so wheres the buff to help the black and latino folks?
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On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
I find it really funny how the same guys, unable to split their air units against the slow-ass-hell range 6 seeker missile, are demanding perfect splits from terran against the instant range 9 fungal!
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On December 04 2012 23:47 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor. It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units. I find it really funny how the same guys, unable to split their air units against the slow-ass-hell range 6 seeker missile, are demanding perfect splits from terran against the instant range 9 fungal!
Care to elaborate what your post has to do with mine?
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Russian Federation501 Posts
Does the author play terran or what?
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On December 04 2012 23:53 Day9notdead wrote:
Does the author play terran or what?
It's satirical.
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On December 04 2012 23:41 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:22 monk. wrote:
I already told Ver that probably only a very small fraction of people reading it will actually get it. You were right, oh so right.
The reason for that is only because the article doesn't make sense no matter how you try to interpret it. If its serious it shouldn't have the wild and flimsily supported conspiracy or sections of flowery language. If its satire on the absurdity of Blizzard's lack of response to the infestor, it shouldn't have the valid data points and sections of serious argument. If its purely for laughs/trolling, again the extended sections of serious argument are out of place...I mean he could get the same humor value across without going into such detail in the serious argument sections. If its just to make fun of the drama/lack of quality arguments/conspiracy theories prevalent in the community, well then the parts that are pure humor and frequent flowery language are out of place. I commend Ver's effort and research but I think he went overboard with both of those things to the point where his message was lost.
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Lol so funny.Best post ever.Ver is awesome!
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Philippines1187 Posts
Nice Writeup! I miss the old days really -__-
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Loved it!
As i read through it, I just realized more and more that this is how I've been thinking all the while.
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On December 04 2012 23:04 Beatmania wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 22:48 jdsowa wrote:
The OP must be a frustrated patchterran who hasn't won much after terrans dominated for the first 1.5 years of WOL's lifespan and was replaced by a mere 6 month of zerg on top. Poor guy. So ignorant. Korean Terrans dominated for the first 1.5 years. And skilled Protoss and Zerg would produce the most amazing games with them. So Zergs free reign of terror is signified by one build that requires no multitasking, very little micro, and very little thought towards composition? I must say the games being produced lately are riveting, they're not exactly the same, over, and over, and over again at all. It's a fresh experience every single time. And who doesn't love some ZvZ. Can't get enough.
Haha yeh that post was kinda stupid.
Foreign terrans dominated for like 2 months after release. Since then foreign terrans (due to terran being the most difficult race) won almost no tournaments. So why the hell should OP be angry now? Prior to the rise of pat chzerg terran was just 5-10% UP at GM foreign level. Not they are 40% UP (according to ladder distributions which shows that there are way too few terrans in GM and way too many zergs).
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It's not satire, or it's just poor satire, because the first half is actually completely true (that zerg is so easy to play even foreigners can master it), then the second half turns to trolling (poking fun at overly whiny terrans that will go as far to call blizzard racist). There are un-creative starwars references in it to add to an otherwise bland balance whine. Basically just saying that starcraft 2 is a shit game.
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change images to zvp and "infestor fungal" to "sentry forcefield" and that's the way zergs feel. It's not that there are no counterplays to those caster units, but I agree they significantly narrow the opponent's options, which in turn makes for more boring games.
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Just around the IEM that Mvp won I made a (conspiracy) theory on Blizzard adjusting zerg so that people can see foreigners succeed. Starcraft 2 is much more international than Broodwar, people want to see foreigners win over Koreans.
Protoss is limited in terms of strategies, terran is most difficult mechanically but strongest if played perfectly. Blizzard couldn't buff terran because Korean terrans would win everything, zerg is most suitable for foreigners because it is focused mostly on macroing and rewards passive play so it is less mechanically demanding than terran. It is a perfect race in terms of effort invested - results gained.
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EPT
