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On December 04 2012 21:49 FXO.Slavik wrote:
I think terrans forgot about thor drop on LT, siege pushes on steppes of war and of course... 5 rax reapers :D I remember terrans said: hey, zergs, you are just bad! you'd better learn to play instead of whine!
same shit here ^^
I don't know where you are getting to. If i follow your analogy it tells me that 5 rax reaper and siege pushes on steppes of war weren't overpowered and the nerfs unneeded. When you try to flame people, at least do it right so you don't look just like a random douche.
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^ agreed
the "same shit here" does actually fit because just like back then there will be people in denial who claim that the other races just play bad
@Slavik
squirtles transition straight into carriers would only be relevant if he was having good success with it
so far there have been no signs for that at all, he got owned really badly by xigua at ipl
(in the showmatch vs nerchio he won but that was nerchio playing awful and building banelings vs unscouted carriers and suiciding the only infestors he had before getting any spells off)
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I miss the good old TvZ with Lings/Banelings/Mutas vs Bio/Tanks ! ;(
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On December 04 2012 22:18 Joker58 wrote:
I miss the good old TvZ with Lings/Banelings/Mutas vs Bio/Tanks ! ;(
This, it felt sooo good whenever I managed to properly split and stim my marines away whilst focusing down the Banelings with the Tanks. It also made it so that micro and control determined who would have a leg up in the engagements.
Even if I lost, I could learn from the replay by watching the engagements and going 'oh yeah, I should've split better here or moved the marines there or X or Y'.
There isn't much to learn when it comes to Fungals.
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Poland3775 Posts
Great read. I wonder if Blizzard could just do some reasearch on which aspects of the game - ignoring the players - they enjoy more. Like showing them various variants of example late game PvZ so that they can rate. Maybe a research not towards balance but towards viewers' entertainment.
Also why is it white vs. koreans? What I mean why there are no top i.e. black players in SC2 (please don't take that question the wrong way)?
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On December 04 2012 22:29 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 22:18 Joker58 wrote:
I miss the good old TvZ with Lings/Banelings/Mutas vs Bio/Tanks ! ;( This, it felt sooo good whenever I managed to properly split and stim my marines away whilst focusing down the Banelings with the Tanks. It also made it so that micro and control determined who would have a leg up in the engagements. Even if I lost, I could learn from the replay by watching the engagements and going 'oh yeah, I should've split better here or moved the marines there or X or Y'. There isn't much to learn when it comes to Fungals.
And you also knew that your zerg opponent could outmicro you if he was good, and he was doing a hell of a job if he wins the fight.
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I completly agree that muta ling bling is more entertaining zvt than infestor broodlord. Actually i rarely go infestor in other matchups except zvz.
I agree blizz should change fungal/brood somehow... maybe reduce dps of brood but increase its speed/acceleration? idk
ZvT muta/ling should be encoureged by blizzard. It would require a buff on the mutas or a nerf in mmm though.
What i was disagreeing with, in my previous posts is that zerg is op. not necessarely true.
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Well written, worth the time !
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The OP must be a frustrated patchterran who hasn't won much after terrans dominated for the first 1.5 years of WOL's lifespan and was replaced by a mere 6 month of zerg on top. Poor guy.
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Best read of the year !
See ya WoL , I'll be back for HotS :D
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On December 04 2012 22:48 jdsowa wrote:
The OP must be a frustrated patchterran who hasn't won much after terrans dominated for the first 1.5 years of WOL's lifespan and was replaced by a mere 6 month of zerg on top. Poor guy.
So ignorant. Korean Terrans dominated for the first 1.5 years. And skilled Protoss and Zerg would produce the most amazing games with them. So Zergs free reign of terror is signified by one build that requires no multitasking, very little micro, and very little thought towards composition? I must say the games being produced lately are riveting, they're not exactly the same, over, and over, and over again at all. It's a fresh experience every single time. And who doesn't love some ZvZ. Can't get enough.
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On December 04 2012 22:48 jdsowa wrote:
The OP must be a frustrated patchterran who hasn't won much after terrans dominated for the first 1.5 years of WOL's lifespan and was replaced by a mere 6 month of zerg on top. Poor guy.
You sound like a patchzerg afraid of blizzard taking away your i-win button. Poor guy.
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One of the best articles i´ve ever read so far.
This is nothing but the truth.
There are imbalanced things in this game and Blizzard desn´t want to see it, or doesn´t want to change it.
Thanks for your Post!!!
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Can fully agree about the Protoss vs Zerg part... I said directly after the usage of the mothership vortex that this wont work for long because Zerg just needs to split. But what happened zerg flamed for no reason at all not adapting just flaming :D:D:D Actually the nerf was ok but then zerg started to split properly and protoss player were just hoping for the zerg to not split and fuck up. I love these moments in Ladder people just fuck up for no reason and afterwards they flame.
Or the 2base immortal allin people complain about it being OP but actually its the only real win to get a win against a zerg on the same lvl as yours...
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On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Well, you say Gumiho & Tear are having success with their style against Zerg, but there are absolutely no results to back it up. Everyone knows that Zerg may have problems if you just remove the fungal. But tbh. good Zergs were able to win against marine splits before infestors became mainstream, since top terrans learned to split to near perfection in early 2011. I would say your point is totally invalid here. Of course you are zerg biased since your team is carried on the bag of its zerg players to a lot of recent success. Nobody wants to remove the fungal from the game. But to make it more skillful to use would be great. making it a projectile seems legit to at least try it. Then you need at least some ability to land that money fungal!
EDIT: And to your point about Terrans and Protoss playing the same over and over: I don't know what games you are watching, but we have PRotoss players trying to come up with new (pre-hive) styles over and over in the past weeks. But the problem allways seems, that it is not very difficult for Zerg players to adapt. I don't know how long it takes to find those crisp timings but when all the effort is invane after one week, well everyone runs out of inspiration at some point. And Terrans have developed several openings to get better into the midgame (where 3 big options exist: mech, marine-tank and bio only) but a lot of the pressure builds are more or less figured out too now (I didn't see a hellion-banshee opening really work in a long time, marine pressures are gone, well we have some cross-your-fingers-hellion-timings as well as the good old 2rax I guess). But everything of that is defended pretty easily if the zerg scouts correctly, which is supported by the overlord speedbuff.
While the OP is obviously terran biased and this is more of an entertaining thread with a true background behind it, you look like the offended zerg biased guy, trying to defend his teams success. 
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On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote:
So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch.
I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results.
I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me! Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter? The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor. So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm.
Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors.
You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar.
The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
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I dip my tinfoil hat on you sir. Well done.
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Very well wrote thread, very well done indeed! Keep it up, I agree with you fully!
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EPT
