On December 05 2012 00:15 FinalForm wrote: It's not satire, or it's just poor satire, because the first half is actually completely true (that zerg is so easy to play even foreigners can master it), then the second half turns to trolling (poking fun at overly whiny terrans that will go as far to call blizzard racist). There are un-creative starwars references in it to add to an otherwise bland balance whine. Basically just saying that starcraft 2 is a shit game.
Lol this exactly, coupled with my post above. Basically just saying that both SC2 and blizzard are shit.
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't.
1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them.
Obviously the problem is that the bolded part is not a realistic situation, and that the effectiveness of fungal and chain fungal in particular is so overwhelming that it creates a huge disparity between the damage a well-rounded Terran composition can do and what a Zerg army with infestors can do. It's imbalance to the very core definition of the word, and it's underwhelming to watch as a spectator.
wtf? Do we see siege tanks kill infestors? Yes all the time. Do we see small groups of bio stimming forward and marauders mixed in, exclusively to counter infestors? Yes, anytime a Terran plays biocentric in ZvT. Do we see stalkers blinking forward to snipe infestors? Of course! Do we see Colossi standing at the frontline to attack Infestors (and spines) from the same range as they can fungal while actually not really caring about 40 (shield) damage. Yes we do! Do people feedback Infestors? Anytime they add templar in the lategame.
All of that stuff is being done and is very effective. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage.
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't.
1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them.
Obviously the problem is that the bolded part is not a realistic situation, and that the effectiveness of fungal and chain fungal in particular is so overwhelming that it creates a huge disparity between the damage a well-rounded Terran composition can do and what a Zerg army with infestors can do. It's imbalance to the very core definition of the word, and it's underwhelming to watch as a spectator.
wtf? Do we see siege tanks kill infestors? Yes all the time. Do we see small groups of bio stimming forward and marauders mixed in, exclusively to counter infestors? Yes, anytime a Terran plays biocentric in ZvT. Do we see stalkers blinking forward to snipe infestors? Of course! Do we see Colossi standing at the frontline to attack Infestors (and spines) from the same range as they can fungal while actually not really caring about 40 (shield) damage. Yes we do! Do people feedback Infestors? Anytime they add templar in the lategame.
All of that stuff is being done and is very effective. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage.
Apparently not effective enough to win.
Apparently not intelligent enough to understand the next sentence.
New nerfing idea: Infestors just die after 5 minutes. Non-free units with limited life spans is something I think we haven't seen before. Something like this would discourage stockpiling infestors which, in their current state, only makes them better and better because they build up energy.
On December 05 2012 00:29 FrogOfWar wrote: New nerfing idea: Infestors just die after 5 minutes. Non-free units with limited life spans is something I think we haven't seen before. Something like this would discourage stockpiling infestors which, in their current state, only makes them better and better because they build up energy.
Then hellions and tanks would run out of fuel and marines out of ammos.. Any more genius idea like that??
Really hard not to LOL at some posts. This is particularly amusing, because every time Blizz nerfs something quickly, people yell at them for being heavy handed, for not letting the players or mapmakers figure it out, or for being knee-jerk. When Blizz openly stated they wanted people to figure it out, and if they couldn't they say: "Okay guys, fine, we are working on a fix" and people scream that Blizz didn't act fast enough, and that they aren't doing enough, don't care or even in some cases that it's a big conspiracy.
I'm sure everyone would have been fine if Blizz made a massive sweeping nerf to infestors right in the middle of tournament season. Woulda been funny if it happened the teusday before IPL5... Watch as every zerg gets knocked out in the first round.
Honestly, I don't like Zerg dominance, and I beyond hate the infestor. I too started wandering away when every game got formulaic and infestor dominated. But the player base is largely responsible for this as well. Fungals and IT became so dominant, not because they are OP, but because they are disproportionately EASY. Baneling drops, muta harass, ling runbys, ultras, these are all powerful and fun to watch options, but the risk and effort for reward factor so vastly favors LOLFUNGAL&IT strategies that it makes players lazy. Can't blame them too much though... If it works, it works. Same issue protoss have been having since the game began. Actually protoss is more at blame, because the easy all ins and colossi balls are actually LESS effective than a proper harass, warp prism spread out army... but thats another story.
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't.
1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them.
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it.
Nope. Fungal prevents all micro for the targeted units for 4seconds. Huge burst damage that instantly kills units (f.e. siege tanks) prevents all micro.
So basically you dont agrre that fungal prevents micro and in the next sentence you say fungal prevents micro. Really strong logic. Also thanks for enlighting me that dead units cant be microed, did not know that.
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't.
1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them.
On December 04 2012 23:40 keglu wrote:
On December 04 2012 23:24 Big J wrote:
On December 04 2012 23:11 monkybone wrote:
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
Not comparable, fungal prevents all micro, storm on other hand force micro(you wanna leave storm area). Also you can use storm as positioning tool (denying escape route, etc) With fungal you just hit as much units as possible and that it.
Nope. Fungal prevents all micro for the targeted units for 4seconds. Huge burst damage that instantly kills units (f.e. siege tanks) prevents all micro.
So basically you dont agree that fungal prevents micro and in the next sentence you say fungal prevents micro. Really strong logic. Also thanks for enlighting me that dead units cant be microed, did not know that.
But in general, i agree that infestors are way too powerful and there is little difference in them being used by a pro or a noob.
But i think the reason the game is still pretty balanced (maybe favoring zerg but still pretty balanced) is that everything non infestor is pretty bad.
So as a zerg, i would trade a big infestor nerf for a muta/ling/bling buff. Like... mutas starting with +1 armor and a little more speed (like... so phonix cant kill them just by chasing them).
On December 04 2012 04:17 Tachion wrote: The OP opened up strong, and then deteriorated into conspiracy theory bullshit. Oh well, you had me there for a little bit.
Conspiracy theories tend to sound like bullshit but just look LR threads here on TL and how people react when their foreign hopes lose and get eliminated from the tournament. Sc2 is much more international than BW and people want foreigners to fight on equal ground as Koreans. Blizzard started making some very questionable decisions and considerably lowering the skill cap of zerg, making it accessible for foreigners.
OP brings some nice examples, lets view some more:
1. - look how he clumps up everything even though there is no marines and he knows he is up against thors. He even manages to lose all his infestors to planetary and tanks. As a finishing touch, he loses a broodlord to a missile turret.
2. - he has 3 pathways on to the high ground, does he even try to do anything else other than trying to bully his way into Mvp's perfectly positioned army?
3. - Nestea almost couldn't be more clumped than he was in that fight.
Honestly, it is embarrassing that this is considered high level zerg play. The saddest thing is that some of those fights were actually very close. This is current TvZ balance. Zerg is balanced around 100% macro. This is no longer a high skill cap race.
On December 05 2012 00:29 FrogOfWar wrote: New nerfing idea: Infestors just die after 5 minutes. Non-free units with limited life spans is something I think we haven't seen before. Something like this would discourage stockpiling infestors which, in their current state, only makes them better and better because they build up energy.
Then hellions and tanks would run out of fuel and marines out of ammos.. Any more genius idea like that??
Sorry, my mistake, I shouldn't have written "now generalize and apply to everything". Oh wait ...
On December 04 2012 12:25 FXOBoSs wrote: So much effort to whine about balance.
Your whine is not invalid, but you are not taking into account the fact that the elite terrans of korea could go mass marine and split vs zerg without fungal. And win more than 50% of the time.
Your comparison for good fungals, although showing my bias, is leenock. If you sit and watch leenock play, I doubt many people can mimic what he does, same goes for life, sniper et al..
This isn't a problem with just fungal. Its a problem after you nerf fungal, how does zerg win? Fungal over balanced the an issue that existed, so there needs to be multiple balance changes to make the game balanced. But no one has shown they actually know what the balance changes are.
Gumiho solves the problem of infestors with ghosts and lots of them. It does leave him open to certain transitions though, but he is still having success with it and thats even with the current patch. I think one of the issues that has occured is that zerg over the time since beta has had to adapt quicker to imbalance than the other races. On this fungal patch, protoss was dominating the scene originally. Then zergs figured it out and now zerg is romping. Yet we are still seeing terrans and protoss players playing exactly the same as pre patch.
One of the issues is that maybe there are too many tournaments going on for the top guys to sit down and work it out. Because the time it takes to work it out may affect their results. I know that Tear doesn't seem to struggle against zerg too much, because his timings are all pre infestor/blord mass. So the zerg can't just sit there and go straight to infestor brood.
There is a solution to every problem, it just seems whining is the easiest option.
Enjoy flaming me!
Sure, what you say may be true, but does it really matter?
The main problem with fungal is not that it makes Zerg win, it's that it makes for bad gameplay. Almost everyone agrees, something needs to be done with the infestor. Blizzard agrees, they will nerf the infestor.
So what if Zerg is in problems after that, then something else will have to change. But it's not gonna be a buff to the infestor.
It's always the same people that agree on it and spread it out. Fungal isn't bad by design or makes for bad gamplay. It's a deadly spell that punishes bad moves, just like storm. Yes, you can chain fungal huge army chunks it if you have a ton of infestors. You can also carpet storm huge areas if you have enough templar. The difference is, that there are not enough downsides to having many infestors, due to IT being good vs most things and that there are huge downsides to having a lot of templar, due to ghosts being good vs them AND all other Protoss units.
The problem with fungal is how uncompromisingly effective it is. Storm on the other hand creates dynamic gameplay as it forces splitting micro. There is a gradual efficiency to storm, depending on the micro of the Terran player. You can back out of a carpet of storms. There is no such thing with fungal, it all relies on pre-splitting. Often there is not enough reaction time to do it, we see pro players known for their excellent micro being left helpless against fungal in certain situations. It creates a situation where once it happens, it's over. It certainly makes for bad gameplay. Even if you disagree, most people don't.
1) So you get hit by a fungal, 30-40 damage - medivac heal. Not a big deal; Shields regenerate... 2) You get chain fungaled? Well, it's getting into the amounts where it hurts, but if you are set up well with tanks or poking squads, blink stalkers, Colossi, Templar he is going to lose infestors for it = good dynamic gameplay. Hell, banshees are a good idea vs few infestors, because getting rid of them costs sooo much damage and they still do damage. 3) The problem EXCLUSIVELY arises if it doesn't actually hurt the zerg to lose infestors, because he has soooooooooooooo many of them.
Obviously the problem is that the bolded part is not a realistic situation, and that the effectiveness of fungal and chain fungal in particular is so overwhelming that it creates a huge disparity between the damage a well-rounded Terran composition can do and what a Zerg army with infestors can do. It's imbalance to the very core definition of the word, and it's underwhelming to watch as a spectator.
wtf? Do we see siege tanks kill infestors? Yes all the time. Do we see small groups of bio stimming forward and marauders mixed in, exclusively to counter infestors? Yes, anytime a Terran plays biocentric in ZvT. Do we see stalkers blinking forward to snipe infestors? Of course! Do we see Colossi standing at the frontline to attack Infestors (and spines) from the same range as they can fungal while actually not really caring about 40 (shield) damage. Yes we do! Do people feedback Infestors? Anytime they add templar in the lategame.
All of that stuff is being done and is very effective. It just stops being effective once a zerg has 20+ Infestors and losing one just means that he is going to have 999999999-8 ITs once he wants to engage.
I see you defending infestors and zerg the whole damn time. The only thing I want to show you are STATISTICS:
On December 05 2012 00:41 MarcoBrei wrote: Zerg may be OP in pro-level nowadays. But terran was OP for so many time in every level, and I never saw such thing like topics like this.
Then you had no eyes. I remember so much whine about terran. Every laddergame vs p and z we got flamed. There was 0 respect for terran. Tons of "terran is imba" and "mech is imba" topics showed up.
EPT
