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On December 05 2012 02:18 Ayoeme wrote:
Yes, mutaling ZvT was far more enjoyable. Too bad it's not possible anymore. Double engineering bays, correct turret positioning, good timings, hellion oppenings make it impossible for it to work. That said, it sometimes does for a short amount of time or with an all in, when T goes for greedy builds or greedy hellion banshee that got designed because of what zergs are doing.
I'm not defending or saying that infestor is OK. But with current game knowledge it would be impossible to deal with things, for example, near-200 mech army without infestor, since it comes out faster than broodlords and there's hellion harass. You'd have to go mass roach and do timings, weird stuff and hope that terran messes up with sieging or control. If not, zerg loses.
"DURR, infestor is dumb!" And I'd agree for the most part. But 3 months left until new expansion where infestor's relevance hopefully isn't so high and zerg has multiple options, not just infestor. ABOUT TIME WE HEAT UP THE INFESTOR DEBATE!
Give it a rest for the last months of WoL... Damnit. You should be more focused on thinking about what Terran lacks in HOTS. They are nearly unchanged and widow mines being pretty bullshit is carrying them. (Infestor deja-vu) I mean, beta is out there so people think, right? Much better than wasting your thoughts on what has been said 150'000'006 times over and over again.
i agree. Lets just drop the infestor issue until the patch comes out. Blizzard knows there's a problem and the ball is in their court now to fix it in a way that will be good for balance and entertainment.
ON THE OTHER HAND WTF IS UP WIT HOTS
>> widow mines suck dick after early game, you should get widow mine upgrades in the factory
>> widow mines are too easy to abuse in low level games but don't do any damage in high level games; buff widow mines and make their attacks not autocast.
>> tempests murder mech. Dunno how to fix this problem.
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TL;DR Motherfucker Jerg for the win! NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA NOTIMBA
User was temp banned for this post.
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Ahm, no? Where did you read that I said fungal doesn't prevent ANY micro? I'm just saying that preventing something to be done is not a bad thing. It's what positional play does. It prevents you from going somewhere. It's what microed marines do. They prevent you from hitting them. It's what walls do. They prevent you from attacking stuff behind them or running past them.
I.e: Fungal is not a bad thing. Not for gameplay, not for balance, not for game design.
You are completely failing to understand the concept. Your examples are examples of avoiding negative consequences through positive action; micro'ing Marines to dodge Banelings is skill-intensive and is a matter of your micro besting your opponent's micro/positioning. This is not what Fungal does. Fungal is disproportionately effective for the difficulty of it's use; a damn monkey could be trained to Fungal effectively and to avoid being Fungal'd in a significant manner is one of the most difficult things to do in the game. Furthermore, Fungal literally takes away the mechanical capability to move units; it doesn't just stop things from happening. Even if the best mechanical player in the world wanted to micro a unit, the game does not allow him to do so because of the function of Fungal. It blows my mind that you can't understand the difference.
Furthermore, even if we do accept that micro-eliminating abilities aren't inherently bad (see Stasis, Vortex, BW Queen slow, etc.) the problem is when it is so prevalent. In BW, these abilities were high cost and weren't staple abilities that were massed and constantly used, and they also did no damage. Fungal is cheap, doesn't need to be researched, does a significant amount of damage, and is incredibly easy to use. This is why it is bad for gameplay, balance, and game design. It makes playing the game boring, it is disproportionately effective compared to its difficulty of use, and it is incredibly boring to spectate.
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Haha freaking awesome! love the ending :D
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The amount of bias in this article makes it impossible for me to take it seriously, OP brings up some nice points but comes off as a whiner in the grand scheme of things.
Could have been a really good article.
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This article is even BETTER than the Elephant in the Room. Well done! Don't listen to all the serious business gamers reading this!
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I don't understand why people say it's a joke... I get that the ending is sarcastic, but other than that, this all seems accurate.
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Bravo, best thread of the year and a kick in the teeth for all those zerg fanboys. Not that they will care since they all hang out in the Ivory Tower mentioned above.
Everyone in doubt can ask themselves: How many foreign Terrans have you seen doing well in the past six months?
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On December 05 2012 02:18 Ayoeme wrote:
Give it a rest for the last months of WoL... Damnit. You should be more focused on thinking about what Terran lacks in HOTS. They are nearly unchanged and widow mines being pretty bullshit is carrying them. (Infestor deja-vu) I mean, beta is out there so people think, right? Much better than wasting your thoughts on what has been said 150'000'006 times over and over again.
What if I don't want to shell out another 60 bucks to play a balanced RTS?
People who raise this point miss the fact that many of us don't want to pay Blizzard a single cent in sales until they fix their issues with Wings of Liberty.
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Alright. Patch zerg= May 12 2012.
Involved zergs in the patchzerg swarm: Symbol,Life,HyuN,Sniper.
swarm?
Allthough I agree to an extent that 2011 was so much entertaining. But zerg isnt as OP as most people think.
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On December 05 2012 03:12 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:18 Ayoeme wrote:
Give it a rest for the last months of WoL... Damnit. You should be more focused on thinking about what Terran lacks in HOTS. They are nearly unchanged and widow mines being pretty bullshit is carrying them. (Infestor deja-vu) I mean, beta is out there so people think, right? Much better than wasting your thoughts on what has been said 150'000'006 times over and over again. What if I don't want to shell out another 60 bucks to play a balanced RTS? People who raise this point miss the fact that many of us don't want to pay Blizzard a single cent in sales until they fix their issues with Wings of Liberty.
Pretty much the way I see it, this situation has been going on for a long time now and still no changes, why the fuck should I buy another one of their games? My experience tells me to do otherwise.
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Another whining person who doesn't deviate from the 1 accepted metagame and doesn't even try..
As seen in the last Day9 Daily (smart one) if you move out at 16min and expect to find slow lings you're wrong, so try and do something before.
I myself never had problems as i apply pressure sooner, helps that i play Z as well but no excuses for not thinking in an rts..
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On December 05 2012 02:18 Ayoeme wrote:
Yes, mutaling ZvT was far more enjoyable. Too bad it's not possible anymore. Double engineering bays, correct turret positioning, good timings, hellion oppenings make it impossible for it to work.
So after roughly 1.5 years of muta/ling, Terrans finally learn how to shut down that strat effectivley, making it useless and obsolete....right after the queen patch....without any change to the core units and building that are used to combat muta/ling.
Riiiigt
Muta/ling was and still is viable and what you're saying is absolutely ridiculous.Zergs scrapped it because infestor/hive turtling gives them much much much better chances to win.
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On December 05 2012 02:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
Ahm, no? Where did you read that I said fungal doesn't prevent ANY micro? I'm just saying that preventing something to be done is not a bad thing. It's what positional play does. It prevents you from going somewhere. It's what microed marines do. They prevent you from hitting them. It's what walls do. They prevent you from attacking stuff behind them or running past them.
I.e: Fungal is not a bad thing. Not for gameplay, not for balance, not for game design.
You are completely failing to understand the concept. Your examples are examples of avoiding negative consequences through positive action; micro'ing Marines to dodge Banelings is skill-intensive and is a matter of your micro besting your opponent's micro/positioning. This is not what Fungal does. Fungal is disproportionately effective for the difficulty of it's use; a damn monkey could be trained to Fungal effectively and to avoid being Fungal'd in a significant manner is one of the most difficult things to do in the game. Furthermore, Fungal literally takes away the mechanical capability to move units; it doesn't just stop things from happening. Even if the best mechanical player in the world wanted to micro a unit, the game does not allow him to do so because of the function of Fungal. It blows my mind that you can't understand the difference. Furthermore, even if we do accept that micro-eliminating abilities aren't inherently bad (see Stasis, Vortex, BW Queen slow, etc.) the problem is when it is so prevalent. In BW, these abilities were high cost and weren't staple abilities that were massed and constantly used, and they also did no damage. Fungal is cheap, doesn't need to be researched, does a significant amount of damage, and is incredibly easy to use. This is why it is bad for gameplay, balance, and game design. It makes playing the game boring, it is disproportionately effective compared to its difficulty of use, and it is incredibly boring to spectate.
Take multiple Colossi: they have the exact same effect for small ground units as fungal has for them. "If you go into 9range, you are going to die and nothing is going to safe you once you are in range." (similar for siege tanks, though the range is bigger, yet they cannot move towards you)
There is no difference in gameplay. The only difference is that fungal is a button that says "you can't do shit about this once it hits you", while there is no such button for Colossi/Siege Tanks. They just do that without someone reading it.
+ Show Spoiler +
It's acutally the same everywhere on these forums:
-) Concussive, FF and fungal are big visible buttons. Suddenly everybody is pissed about "micro denying abilities", while other units do that just by stats. (speedlings, can't micro against that with like 2 of 3units in the game etc etc...)
-) In SC2 blizzard has made the bonus damage visible (unlike BW, where you had to check some guide/liquipedia for it). Suddenly everybody is pissed about "damage systems".
-) New WoL/HotS units and abilities like the immortal against tanks or battle hellions/hellbats were first visible fighting certain other units (in this case Tanks/zealots). Suddenly everybody is pissed about the units "only being there to counter X".
Back to the example: The difference between Colossi and Infestors is, that at some point mass Colossus will just be countered really hard by something (usually air). Hence, those situations are standard play. That's not true for the Infestor. There is no downside to building more infestors, which means mass chain fungal is available everywhere on the map and at all times past some point.
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The problem with the OP is that he complains about Naniwa beating Flash with a cheesy build, which is precisely following the Korean mantra in terms of being a championship player, that cheesing is completely viable and that if you need it to win then do it. I mean look at Boxer, 3-0 Bunker rushes people. So I don't see how Naniwa beating Flash, was a "white" win
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Alright folks, 70HP eggs and 8 range infestors, does this actually help?
(raven seeker missile no longer needs an upgrade)
personally i don't think its enough. terran will still be unforgiving if you get caught in a fungal.
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On December 05 2012 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:18 Ayoeme wrote:
Yes, mutaling ZvT was far more enjoyable. Too bad it's not possible anymore. Double engineering bays, correct turret positioning, good timings, hellion oppenings make it impossible for it to work. That said, it sometimes does for a short amount of time or with an all in, when T goes for greedy builds or greedy hellion banshee that got designed because of what zergs are doing.
I'm not defending or saying that infestor is OK. But with current game knowledge it would be impossible to deal with things, for example, near-200 mech army without infestor, since it comes out faster than broodlords and there's hellion harass. You'd have to go mass roach and do timings, weird stuff and hope that terran messes up with sieging or control. If not, zerg loses.
"DURR, infestor is dumb!" And I'd agree for the most part. But 3 months left until new expansion where infestor's relevance hopefully isn't so high and zerg has multiple options, not just infestor. ABOUT TIME WE HEAT UP THE INFESTOR DEBATE!
Give it a rest for the last months of WoL... Damnit. You should be more focused on thinking about what Terran lacks in HOTS. They are nearly unchanged and widow mines being pretty bullshit is carrying them. (Infestor deja-vu) I mean, beta is out there so people think, right? Much better than wasting your thoughts on what has been said 150'000'006 times over and over again. i agree. Lets just drop the infestor issue until the patch comes out. Blizzard knows there's a problem and the ball is in their court now to fix it in a way that will be good for balance and entertainment. ON THE OTHER HAND WTF IS UP WIT HOTS >> widow mines suck dick after early game, you should get widow mine upgrades in the factory>> widow mines are too easy to abuse in low level games but don't do any damage in high level games; buff widow mines and make their attacks not autocast. >> tempests murder mech. Dunno how to fix this problem.
This is actually by design. They were originally called "Window mines", signifying that you have a small window of opportunity to use them in each game.
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On December 05 2012 03:40 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:On December 05 2012 02:18 Ayoeme wrote:
Yes, mutaling ZvT was far more enjoyable. Too bad it's not possible anymore. Double engineering bays, correct turret positioning, good timings, hellion oppenings make it impossible for it to work. That said, it sometimes does for a short amount of time or with an all in, when T goes for greedy builds or greedy hellion banshee that got designed because of what zergs are doing.
I'm not defending or saying that infestor is OK. But with current game knowledge it would be impossible to deal with things, for example, near-200 mech army without infestor, since it comes out faster than broodlords and there's hellion harass. You'd have to go mass roach and do timings, weird stuff and hope that terran messes up with sieging or control. If not, zerg loses.
"DURR, infestor is dumb!" And I'd agree for the most part. But 3 months left until new expansion where infestor's relevance hopefully isn't so high and zerg has multiple options, not just infestor. ABOUT TIME WE HEAT UP THE INFESTOR DEBATE!
Give it a rest for the last months of WoL... Damnit. You should be more focused on thinking about what Terran lacks in HOTS. They are nearly unchanged and widow mines being pretty bullshit is carrying them. (Infestor deja-vu) I mean, beta is out there so people think, right? Much better than wasting your thoughts on what has been said 150'000'006 times over and over again. i agree. Lets just drop the infestor issue until the patch comes out. Blizzard knows there's a problem and the ball is in their court now to fix it in a way that will be good for balance and entertainment. ON THE OTHER HAND WTF IS UP WIT HOTS >> widow mines suck dick after early game, you should get widow mine upgrades in the factory>> widow mines are too easy to abuse in low level games but don't do any damage in high level games; buff widow mines and make their attacks not autocast. >> tempests murder mech. Dunno how to fix this problem. This is actually by design. They were originally called "Window mines", signifying that you have a small window of opportunity to use them in each game.
Then they nerfed the name because Terran many more six letter words than the other races.
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It seems this article actually hit home quite well.
I'm glad this was posted to teamliquid. Although these points have been made for months now, people would simply discredit them and pretend there was no problem. I'm pretty sure you single-handedly forced blizzards hand with the HOTS and WOL patches being announced within a day of the article.
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EPT
