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I personally think that the game (Starcraft 2) was fueled by hype from Brood War and people thinking that "newer" is better. It would be normal for a new AAA game to gain a huge interest at the start and gradually generate lower interest as it gets older.
2013 - While HOTS may bring back some hype to SC2, it would probably be something temporary unless the game encourages BW like action.
Starcraft 2 does not capture that Brood War feel from the spectator's point of view. As the game goes older, interest lowers. While people would still definitely watch Starcraft 2 (SC2 does not have any viable competitor in the RTS genre), more interest will be generated in Lane Pushing Games especially with the release of one of the most awaited games in 2013 - Dota 2.
TLDR: Don't blame the Infestors for the lowered hype for the game. Even if you nerf Infestors to the ground, other units will take it's place that can take the blame (Colossus for example).
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hey man dont worry ravens will save us
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I dont think its as simple as infestors being too strong. Its the entire design of zerg. In both PvZ and TvZ the protoss and terran choose a type of attack and Z has to scout prepare and defend it. Watching starcraft 2 in the early days you would constantly see game after game where the pro Z didnt scout something or misread what he did scout or reacted incorrectly. After all this time the top zergs do not make these errors. They always scout perfectly, always time their reactions perfectly and always make the correct choices.
The only ZvX loss i remember seeing at IPL was nerchio vs some korean P who went for a quick carrier transition on antiga that Z didnt scout.
As long as you have one race that cannot turtle with efficient units and is totally reliant on correct reactions, INITIALLY they will lose more and EVENTUALLY (NOW) they will win too often.
Sc2 zerg is the only starcraft race to ever be in this position, brood war had lurkers.
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On December 04 2012 11:10 RTSDealer wrote:
I personally think that the game (Starcraft 2) was fueled by hype from Brood War and people thinking that "newer" is better. It would be normal for a new AAA game to gain a huge interest at the start and gradually generate lower interest as it gets older.
2013 - While HOTS may bring back some hype to SC2, it would probably be something temporary unless the game encourages BW like action.
Starcraft 2 does not capture that Brood War feel from the spectator's point of view. As the game goes older, interest lowers. While people would still definitely watch Starcraft 2 (SC2 does not have any viable competitor in the RTS genre), more interest will be generated in Lane Pushing Games especially with the release of one of the most awaited games in 2013 - Dota 2.
TLDR: Don't blame the Infestors for the lowered hype for the game. Even if you nerf Infestors to the ground, other units will take it's place that can take the blame (Colossus for example).
I don't know, there's a hell of a lot of people (probably even the majority) who basically didn't watch or play BW but have been into SC2 since the beginning. It doesn't really make any logical sense to say that SC2's success as a (foreign) esport is simply riding on BW's coattails when most of its fans weren't really into BW anyway.
I dont think its as simple as infestors being too strong. Its the entire design of zerg. In both PvZ and TvZ the protoss and terran choose a type of attack and Z has to scout prepare and defend it. Watching starcraft 2 in the early days you would constantly see game after game where the pro Z didnt scout something or misread what he did scout or reacted incorrectly. After all this time the top zergs do not make these errors. They always scout perfectly, always time their reactions perfectly and always make the correct choices.
The only ZvX loss i remember seeing at IPL was nerchio vs some korean P who went for a quick transition on antiga that Z didnt scout.
As long as you have one race that cannot turtle with efficient units and is totally reliant on correct reactions, INITIALLY they will lose more and EVENTUALLY (NOW) they will win too often.
Sc2 zerg is the only starcraft race to ever be in this position, brood war had lurkers.
That's sort of true, but I disagree with some of the details. There used to be plenty of timings or builds or whatever that would come down to how well both sides controlled, which is still the case in modern TvP (the protoss KNOWS a medivac timing is coming every single game). Infestors just make it so that micro is way less useful, at best, which means that scouting and reacting appropriately is a much more assured path to victory than before.
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On December 04 2012 09:37 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:On December 04 2012 08:59 kcdc wrote:
Why do Zergs think they should get compensation for an infestor nerf in the form of buffs to other units? The infestor is too strong. Zerg has an unfair advantage. The goal is a level playing field, and nerfing the infestor would be intended to achieve that goal. You wouldn't nerf the infestor to level the field and then buff, say, the mutalisk to prop the Zerg side back up.
It's like a soccer team acknowledging that they shouldn't be able to play with 12 men on the field when everyone else has only 11, but in compensation for complying with the 11 man rule, they demand that their forwards should be able to use their hands. Excellent reaction! Zergs act like if they are weak without infestors. Watch leenock destroy code S terrans with muta ling bling. Watch nestea win the gsl with muta ling bling, when 1) terran was much stronger, 2) the maps were much smaller. Another thing would be micro: learn it!! Split your banelings! Work for your wins! If the infestor gets nerfed, a ton of zerg players will fall down so hard. They will blame balance, while in reality they are used to the sick cost efficiënt infestor. After an infestor nerf, you will actually need to spread, flank, and when you make a mistake, 3 fungals won't get you back into the game. You will need to earn your win 100%. Well, without infestor, Zerg doesn't really have a counter to Protoss deathballs, which is why it was buffed originally anyway... you can't really beat blink stalker/colossus without them and sentries make it too hard to do enough meaningful damage before colossi are out. Really, the whole issue comes back to colossi, which are actually the shittiest and most boring unit in the game
This x10000.
The real issue is the colossus, that's why zerg had to be buffed in the first place. Instead of fixing an obvious problem that is boring and once op, blizzard just put a bandaid on it that is the infestor buff.
Now infestors are ruining the game. The only way to solve this issue is to completely flip this game upside down in the pvz matchup.
>> nerf infestor, they are no longer used for dps but more for positioning as intended
>> remove colossus. It's just dumb.
>> buff gateway units, nerf warpgate cooldown.
>> now corruptors can be removed cause no dumb colossus, 2 birds with one stone.
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Post of the week ez !
Very interesting, well written and funny.
What do you want more, besides a bunch of infestors 
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I read the whole thing... Agreed with most of it... Still, I do think they are just dumb.
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Totally agree with the first part - there are serious issues with vs Z matchup and infestor broodlord is at the heart of the problem. Couldnt even be bothered watching the end of IPL5 because of all the boring infestor/BL army. While I love the versatility of the infestor and some interesting strats can come of it, FG just sucks.
oh and lol at "its so while ppl can win"
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what i don't seem to comprehend is why zerg is allowed to have the most bases, most production AND best lategame army. it just doesn't add up.
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On December 04 2012 11:15 samuraibael wrote:
I dont think its as simple as infestors being too strong. Its the entire design of zerg. In both PvZ and TvZ the protoss and terran choose a type of attack and Z has to scout prepare and defend it. Watching starcraft 2 in the early days you would constantly see game after game where the pro Z didnt scout something or misread what he did scout or reacted incorrectly. After all this time the top zergs do not make these errors. They always scout perfectly, always time their reactions perfectly and always make the correct choices.
The only ZvX loss i remember seeing at IPL was nerchio vs some korean P who went for a quick transition on antiga that Z didnt scout.
As long as you have one race that cannot turtle with efficient units and is totally reliant on correct reactions, INITIALLY they will lose more and EVENTUALLY (NOW) they will win too often.
Sc2 zerg is the only starcraft race to ever be in this position, brood war had lurkers.
Me and a few coaches were discussing this when the game first came out... We used to think that this is an issue but when the game was played out, I realized that this is not the case.
Also, in broodwar zergs also made drones/ fighters from the same larvae and it still worked out fine. I dont see how lurkers are the fix, it's not like they're good against everything.
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Damn, you must be all blind! sorry, no offense, but srsly:
Take just one look at IPL Fight Club!
Its soo damn obvious, and i dont want to discredit HyuN, but srsly....
14 wins in a row.... on top of that all best of 9! .... I mean srsly.. its imposible, even if you are korean, its just imposible to win (14x5)= 70 maps against other top koreans. you know, its not that we are speaking of HyuN crushing TT1 in IPL FC, we are talking of HyuN crushing PartinG, Creator, etc. and this is just not possible, sorry, not 14 times in a row, maybe 5 matches in a row, ok, but 14 wins against koreans, no way.
Sorry but the answer is so obvious: Just because of playing Zerg. -.-
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On December 04 2012 11:17 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:10 RTSDealer wrote:
I personally think that the game (Starcraft 2) was fueled by hype from Brood War and people thinking that "newer" is better. It would be normal for a new AAA game to gain a huge interest at the start and gradually generate lower interest as it gets older.
2013 - While HOTS may bring back some hype to SC2, it would probably be something temporary unless the game encourages BW like action.
Starcraft 2 does not capture that Brood War feel from the spectator's point of view. As the game goes older, interest lowers. While people would still definitely watch Starcraft 2 (SC2 does not have any viable competitor in the RTS genre), more interest will be generated in Lane Pushing Games especially with the release of one of the most awaited games in 2013 - Dota 2.
TLDR: Don't blame the Infestors for the lowered hype for the game. Even if you nerf Infestors to the ground, other units will take it's place that can take the blame (Colossus for example). I don't know, there's a hell of a lot of people (probably even the majority) who basically didn't watch or play BW but have been into SC2 since the beginning. It doesn't really make any logical sense to say that SC2's success as a (foreign) esport is simply riding on BW's coattails when most of its fans weren't really into BW anyway. Show nested quote +I dont think its as simple as infestors being too strong. Its the entire design of zerg. In both PvZ and TvZ the protoss and terran choose a type of attack and Z has to scout prepare and defend it. Watching starcraft 2 in the early days you would constantly see game after game where the pro Z didnt scout something or misread what he did scout or reacted incorrectly. After all this time the top zergs do not make these errors. They always scout perfectly, always time their reactions perfectly and always make the correct choices.
The only ZvX loss i remember seeing at IPL was nerchio vs some korean P who went for a quick transition on antiga that Z didnt scout.
As long as you have one race that cannot turtle with efficient units and is totally reliant on correct reactions, INITIALLY they will lose more and EVENTUALLY (NOW) they will win too often.
Sc2 zerg is the only starcraft race to ever be in this position, brood war had lurkers. That's sort of true, but I disagree with some of the details. There used to be plenty of timings or builds or whatever that would come down to how well both sides controlled, which is still the case in modern TvP (the protoss KNOWS a medivac timing is coming every single game). Infestors just make it so that micro is way less useful, at best, which means that scouting and reacting appropriately is a much more assured path to victory than before.
Starcraft 2's success is based largely on the reputation of Starcraft. While a lot of people who play it never played Brood War, it's quite likely that a lot of those people got into it from someone else who did play it/something related to it.
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This is pretty much how I've felt about ZvX for the past year, when fungal first got buffed, that whole neural vs. vortex is the biggest bullshit 'counter' I've ever been told to try and do, and then people complained when they nerfed a still effective neural...
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On December 04 2012 11:18 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 09:37 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 09:33 Snowbear wrote:On December 04 2012 08:59 kcdc wrote:
Why do Zergs think they should get compensation for an infestor nerf in the form of buffs to other units? The infestor is too strong. Zerg has an unfair advantage. The goal is a level playing field, and nerfing the infestor would be intended to achieve that goal. You wouldn't nerf the infestor to level the field and then buff, say, the mutalisk to prop the Zerg side back up.
It's like a soccer team acknowledging that they shouldn't be able to play with 12 men on the field when everyone else has only 11, but in compensation for complying with the 11 man rule, they demand that their forwards should be able to use their hands. Excellent reaction! Zergs act like if they are weak without infestors. Watch leenock destroy code S terrans with muta ling bling. Watch nestea win the gsl with muta ling bling, when 1) terran was much stronger, 2) the maps were much smaller. Another thing would be micro: learn it!! Split your banelings! Work for your wins! If the infestor gets nerfed, a ton of zerg players will fall down so hard. They will blame balance, while in reality they are used to the sick cost efficiënt infestor. After an infestor nerf, you will actually need to spread, flank, and when you make a mistake, 3 fungals won't get you back into the game. You will need to earn your win 100%. Well, without infestor, Zerg doesn't really have a counter to Protoss deathballs, which is why it was buffed originally anyway... you can't really beat blink stalker/colossus without them and sentries make it too hard to do enough meaningful damage before colossi are out. Really, the whole issue comes back to colossi, which are actually the shittiest and most boring unit in the game This x10000. The real issue is the colossus, that's why zerg had to be buffed in the first place. Instead of fixing an obvious problem that is boring and once op, blizzard just put a bandaid on it that is the infestor buff. Now infestors are ruining the game. The only way to solve this issue is to completely flip this game upside down in the pvz matchup. >> nerf infestor, they are no longer used for dps but more for positioning as intended >> remove colossus. It's just dumb. >> buff gateway units, nerf warpgate cooldown. >> now corruptors can be removed cause no dumb colossus, 2 birds with one stone.
the real issue is the entire game  . All the macro mechanics and spells, changing highground. These make sc2 stale. HOTS looks even worse from a terran's perspective. Seems like P and Z get legit new stuff (the units dont fix the boring game problem though) and terran gets the lame widowmine and battlehellions. oooooohh
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You cant buff gateway units because chrono makes early game cheese kinda meh, so they nerfed all the build times of the protoss units/upgrades to compensate because of how crappy chronoboost is. Meanwhile you have warpgate being so freaking good that its better than having regular gateways (which makes no sense since you should have to give something up to warp units instantly across the map or get your units upfront on your production cycle) yet blizzard didnt think of this or chose to ignore it. Not to mention the shield regeneration in this game is ridiculous and they should have balanced the units properly and kept shields the way they were for BW (but if they did this their brand new cool unit the immortal wouldnt be nearly as good, and we cant have that now can we?)
Terran has orbitals which are lol mediocre unless the game turns ugly on 1 base where orbitals are really really good. In a macro game orbitals basically offer terran very little in comparison to P and Z production/macro mechanics........
Z with ridiculous creep that offers a speed, vision, and takes forever to recede. -_-
Its like they didnt understand the game at all. If your race has the worst reproduction in the game (Terran) your units need to be by far the strongest, especially late game, yet the game is the exact opposite. Terran units are also pathetically slow when not stimmed so there isnt even this mythical mobility advantage terran has/had that people talk about.
Blizzard really just made fundamental design flaws in the game that I don't think can be corrected now without a fundamental overhaul in the way the game works. That obviously isn't going to happen so we are stuck.
The only way I can see blizzard salvaging Sc2 is if they take the easy way out and make units/spells do different damage to specific units as opposed to a broad range of units. Say something like fungal does X damage to Protoss mechanical units or shields or something, and does Y damage to terran bio, or terran mech etc. Only having armored, light, non armored, massive, psionic, etc is clearly not working.
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On December 04 2012 11:26 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:17 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 11:10 RTSDealer wrote:
I personally think that the game (Starcraft 2) was fueled by hype from Brood War and people thinking that "newer" is better. It would be normal for a new AAA game to gain a huge interest at the start and gradually generate lower interest as it gets older.
2013 - While HOTS may bring back some hype to SC2, it would probably be something temporary unless the game encourages BW like action.
Starcraft 2 does not capture that Brood War feel from the spectator's point of view. As the game goes older, interest lowers. While people would still definitely watch Starcraft 2 (SC2 does not have any viable competitor in the RTS genre), more interest will be generated in Lane Pushing Games especially with the release of one of the most awaited games in 2013 - Dota 2.
TLDR: Don't blame the Infestors for the lowered hype for the game. Even if you nerf Infestors to the ground, other units will take it's place that can take the blame (Colossus for example). I don't know, there's a hell of a lot of people (probably even the majority) who basically didn't watch or play BW but have been into SC2 since the beginning. It doesn't really make any logical sense to say that SC2's success as a (foreign) esport is simply riding on BW's coattails when most of its fans weren't really into BW anyway. I dont think its as simple as infestors being too strong. Its the entire design of zerg. In both PvZ and TvZ the protoss and terran choose a type of attack and Z has to scout prepare and defend it. Watching starcraft 2 in the early days you would constantly see game after game where the pro Z didnt scout something or misread what he did scout or reacted incorrectly. After all this time the top zergs do not make these errors. They always scout perfectly, always time their reactions perfectly and always make the correct choices.
The only ZvX loss i remember seeing at IPL was nerchio vs some korean P who went for a quick transition on antiga that Z didnt scout.
As long as you have one race that cannot turtle with efficient units and is totally reliant on correct reactions, INITIALLY they will lose more and EVENTUALLY (NOW) they will win too often.
Sc2 zerg is the only starcraft race to ever be in this position, brood war had lurkers. That's sort of true, but I disagree with some of the details. There used to be plenty of timings or builds or whatever that would come down to how well both sides controlled, which is still the case in modern TvP (the protoss KNOWS a medivac timing is coming every single game). Infestors just make it so that micro is way less useful, at best, which means that scouting and reacting appropriately is a much more assured path to victory than before. Starcraft 2's success is based largely on the reputation of Starcraft. While a lot of people who play it never played Brood War, it's quite likely that a lot of those people got into it from someone else who did play it/something related to it.
Right, but that doesn't result in it being popular as an e-sport, that just means big sales. Something like fifty billion copies of CODBLOPS2 have sold, based almost entirely on the fact that it has "COD" in its title, but pretty much nobody's watching pros play it.
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Oh God. Perfect. I can't say anythingelse it's one ot the most hilarious threads every made. <3 love it.
Hopefully blizzard can save SC2 by making Fungal more OP... Amazing stuff 
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On December 04 2012 11:32 Destroyr wrote:Oh God. Perfect. I can't say anythingelse it's one ot the most hilarious threads every made. <3 love it. Hopefully blizzard can save SC2 by making Fungal more OP... Amazing stuff
says a zerg -.-
I imagine you being pissed of too, if this thread would be about collosus op or something like that, so dont post any comment like that pls!
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It's interesting to see your Foreigner vs Korean numbers if you take out stephano. (I realize he's a 'foreigner') The irony I see is that "Stephano is the only foreigner zerg that flanks sometimes".
Translation: Most foreigners are trash and don't do basic things that they know would improve their play. Either because they can't execute them all (me) or they simply don't know any better (idra :-P) or they don't care (stephano sometimes).
I really enjoyed this read overall.I think many of the points are spot on. Overall there is too much conspiracy theory for me though.
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I enjoyed most of the OP, except for the evil scheming Blizzard wants whitey to win concept.
The whole idea that this is somehow a plot by BliZvZard to promote foreigners is a little ridiculous and not really supported by the fact that DK said he wanted Stephano to win a tournament. The biggest games early on in SC2 were when HuK, Jinro, and IdrA played. Why in the world would Blizzard decide, "whelp, screw HuK, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, and the rest of the top foreign P's and T's, we wanna see more Zerg."
The real cause for the current problems is over-buffing Zerg to the point that you can't harass them early game at all (overlord speed, queen range), and nerfing of snipe so that you can't really use it to counter BLs or Ultras. A professor once told me "never assume something is a conspiracy if it can be explained by stupidity." A bunch of pros have come out and said that they don't really think Blizzard knows what they're doing when it comes to balance and I think that is why we are where we are. Using ghosts to counter ALL Zerg lategame seemed wrong. Blizzard had intended ghosts to be an anti-caster, not an anti-heavy zerg. They intended vikings to be the BL counter and Marauders/Tanks to be the ultra counter, so they nerfed Ghost back to its anti-caster role (with a reduced AOE for EMP, making it not a very good anti-caster anymore). When they went through with these changes they completely failed to consider the effect infestors would have, and now they completely rule the metagame.
Blizzard also saw alot of frustration with Zerg early game. Players hated having huge groups of their drones fried by hellions or banshees or rax rushes. Terran would deal with Zerg's powerful economy by harassing early game, but now overlords are quicker and queens have longer range. So where pros would once be able to kill a few drones early on and force more lings, Zergs can turtle up behind a partial wall and defend with almost only queens while powering behind it.
We all called out for more macro games, but I think Blizzard simply went to far and doesn't know how to fix it.
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Entertaining article.
However, I do actually enjoy watching foreign tournaments more than Korean ones, for several reasons.
1) Timing. I can't stay up late enough to watch through a GSL set. There are ways around that, but I don't care enough to go through with them.
2) Connections. I know more about IdrA than I do about most Korean players. Naturally I like to watch him play.
3) Unpredictability. (At least in foreign vs. foreign games) This is an odd one. It means that more interesting stuff can happen. One player could make a massive comeback without warning, and that is harder to do as the players get better. This is the same reason some people prefer college football over the NFL. This is the reason I prefer GT racing and WRC over formula 1.
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EPT
