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On December 04 2012 10:37 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:35 ScandiNAVIan wrote:On December 04 2012 10:33 GolemMadness wrote:On December 04 2012 10:29 ScandiNAVIan wrote:On December 04 2012 10:25 KingAce wrote:
So when are we going to address the real issue here? Unit clumping. You cannot hope to balance this game when on it's most fundamental level, it's flawed.
Just because noobs arent able to spread out their units doesnt mean its not possible. Yeah, progamers are such noobs. They make mistakes. not spreading out all your units constantly every time you move as you move across the entire map because you may get randomly fungaled at any point in time is a mistake. i see.
Not to mention did you see Polt TvZ's from IPl5 this weekend?
Phenomenal spread every time he moved, did not make a difference....
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I like that one 
First, Terran, is specifically made extremely difficult to play and brutally unforgiving against both other races.
Hm I mean I liked everything xD
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On December 04 2012 10:45 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:41 SirPinky wrote:
Well written post, Ver. I stopped playing SC2 a few weeks ago because the issues, you eloquently outline, have just become ridiculous. When you have top Zerg foreigners, like Stephano, publicly stating "Zerg is easy to play compared to other races" you know there is a large problem. Even though I've stopped playing WoL, I look for threads like this daily to renew my faith in the game. Currently, I'm playing around with HOTS for fun but WoL is a lost cause at this point IMO. Even in HOTS Terran is, again, relegated to crappy T1 units. The Hellbat does not change TvP mech, Widow mines took all of two weeks to figure out detection timings (making them pretty obsolete except TvT), and let me know when it's a good idea to use reapers in the meta game.
It's funny we're at the point where Korean Terrans (like Ryung), who are notoriously well-mannered, spamming 'IMBA IMBA IMBA,,," in the IPL finals after losing to his Zerg opponent this weekend. Casters are even having a difficult time deflecting the, more than overt, problem with the game which ends up in long, awkwards pauses or chuckles in the broadcast. Typically, it's followed by Tastless coming up with some bewildering statement like, "Ummm, yeaaaa guys, I guess that's game...."
And if I have to hear to wors "beautiful fungal" again I'm going to shoot myself. I thought everyone would think the same thing about FFs by now.
thats true but in all seroiusness you have to land 4 -5 ffs to lock down an army.....with fungal its just 1.....so 200-250 energy vs 75.....and that does damage, detects and works verse air too
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On December 04 2012 10:45 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:41 SirPinky wrote:
Well written post, Ver. I stopped playing SC2 a few weeks ago because the issues, you eloquently outline, have just become ridiculous. When you have top Zerg foreigners, like Stephano, publicly stating "Zerg is easy to play compared to other races" you know there is a large problem. Even though I've stopped playing WoL, I look for threads like this daily to renew my faith in the game. Currently, I'm playing around with HOTS for fun but WoL is a lost cause at this point IMO. Even in HOTS Terran is, again, relegated to crappy T1 units. The Hellbat does not change TvP mech, Widow mines took all of two weeks to figure out detection timings (making them pretty obsolete except TvT), and let me know when it's a good idea to use reapers in the meta game.
It's funny we're at the point where Korean Terrans (like Ryung), who are notoriously well-mannered, spamming 'IMBA IMBA IMBA,,," in the IPL finals after losing to his Zerg opponent this weekend. Casters are even having a difficult time deflecting the, more than overt, problem with the game which ends up in long, awkwards pauses or chuckles in the broadcast. Typically, it's followed by Tastless coming up with some bewildering statement like, "Ummm, yeaaaa guys, I guess that's game...."
And if I have to hear to wors "beautiful fungal" again I'm going to shoot myself. I thought everyone would think the same thing about FFs by now.
FFs at least take a little more skill, to be fair. Good protosses will cut the opponent's army in such a way that the trade is effective as possible, and FF requires more precision. You also often have to forcefield an army that comes out of fuck-nowhere or you lose, whereas 90% of the time you fungal, you know the army's coming
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Thank you for writing this. Fungal and Forcefield = beyond boring in the more boring direction.
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Hmm, just the right balance of data and trolling, keep it up.
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I see that you have putted a lot of effort into this but seriously man, I've read through about half before I had to stop, your saying things so silly its amazing. I want to ask you why not put mirror matches? If your conspiracy is true than Zerg is imba because Blizzard wants white people to win, but if foreigners beat koreans in mirror matches it means foreigners simply got better instead of Blizzard trying to let them win. I want to see mirror matches wins, since the only reason you did not put them up is because it would ruin your silly theory.
Besides the mirror matches wins of course there are many more clues as why this whole thread is silly and wrong, but I think this thread is a troll thread, no more, no less, and if it is not than I pity you sincerely.
EDIT: I think the only reason this thread is not closed is because the OP is a respectable member of TL, but IMO if someone writes so much BS there should be no special treatment.
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hahahaah what an awesome post
that's right, when blizzard talk about racial balance, they are talking abt balancing koreans and white people
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Back in the day, if you were a top zerg, you were an instant fan favourite from 99% of the community.
Fruitdealer (Fell off SC2 quickly but no one will forget)
Idra (The Gracken)
Nestea (God of Zerg)
July (God of War)
Leenock (Went from Code A mainstay to trending on twitter at MLG Providence)
DRG( Won everyone's hearts at Blizzard Cup vs MMA and then just dominated)
Symbol (Made a name for himself at Iron Squid, then started killing it everywhere else)
Stephano (Simply a genius at using zerg to its full potential)
Nowadays if you win as zerg, it's just meh. Life is sick good and seems like the new Jaedong but w/e. Sniper already has an army of antifans. How times have changed.
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I haven't played a ladder game since the infestor buff, and I was right to quit. The spells and AOE in this game are way too punishing compared to how easy it is to use them. Most of them are instantly casted, all of them are smartcasted, and they all do a significant amount of damage. The infestor is just one example of this, and it just happens to be the most prevalent example because you're basically spamming a spell that can chain stun+kill an entire army.
Honestly, there just needs to be a professional mode where the smartcast is turned off and the maximum unit selection is limited to like 20.
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On December 04 2012 04:04 sabas123 wrote:
wow nice post, so many stats and examples in there. really hope blizz will finaly patch zerg lol.
It's okay, Zerg will never not be OP. You can outplay someone to a ridiculous level, and lose because Broodlord infestor is like a maphack. Stop the units, surround the units. Laugh at the units.
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On December 04 2012 10:32 ScandiNAVIan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:31 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 04 2012 10:29 ScandiNAVIan wrote:On December 04 2012 10:25 KingAce wrote:
So when are we going to address the real issue here? Unit clumping. You cannot hope to balance this game when on it's most fundamental level, it's flawed.
Just because noobs arent able to spread out their units doesnt mean its not possible. byun is not a noob Byun is certainly capable, but even good players make mistakes/dont pay attention. Edit: if he were arguing something along the lines of "its too unforgiving we need to have units autosplit etc" that'd be another discussion.
That's the (or a) point of the article. Infestors make that terran aren't allowed to make a mistake at all. Once you're fungaled you're dead, and if an infestor hit squad comes from the fog of war when you don't expect it they can fungal you from 8+ range and it's over, fungaled once is as good as dead.
This makes the timing windows of potential errors be in a scale of less than one second. Noob or not, you're human.
Yes you can scout, but fighting on creep is fighting against a player who has full vision, in theory you should scan everywhere and all but in practice you can't ask that, even to a progamer, and say he's a noob when he fails because he looked elsewhere for half a second.
There is mistake and mistake. The mistake of not looking for 0.7 second and dying for that is too much of a punishment. Especially when there is no such punishment for the other race's mistakes.
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On December 04 2012 10:46 admi_n wrote:
I play zerg and honestly hate the infestor. I think that what needs to happen is that the community needs to stop using them as a whole, as a show of dignity for zerg players. I have already dropped them from my play almost entirely.
thb, it reminds me a lot of the colossus. There is no way to argue that the colossus isn't ridiculously overpowered against zerg. Honestly, I can remember losing game after game to a protoss that I outplayed, simply because once the ball is rolling, nothing can engage it. The only reliable way to attack a protoss deathball is with BL/infestor. As a result, every game vs protoss I have to contain him on 2 bases, because once he's on his third, I can't win almost ever.
I also have a problem vs maxed terran mech. I feel like dealing with mech has stages: first I make ling/roach and contain the player, who decides to turtle up. I start to harass with mutas, bu soon thors get out of hand. I can still beat him with my roach composition for a while after this. However, once he is maxed, roaches are too supply-inefficient to engage him, so I can only win by counterattacks. I still lose most of my games against mech.
In ZvZ, playing infestor free is really easy, as long as you don't let him get more than 10 'festors of his own. Honestly though, with constant poking around with roaches, hydras, and mutas, I can still beat a player with very many infestors.
I remember watching lots of neurals pre-patch, and thinking how cool they were. I wish that blizzard would remove or change fungal growth. Honestly, if all fungal did was set up a field where units were slowed and lost armor, I think it would be about a million times better. Infested terran is a cool, unique spell, but I think it needs to be nerfed significantly. Personally, I would make it so IT required a cooldown, so that it couldn't be spammed. Also, making infestors 3 supply would probably be a good thing.
Your position on infestors is probably why you're losing to mech. Take about 15 infestors, some BL and mass infested Terran while throwing some lings in and GG mech. Rinse and repeat...all you need is infestor energy. Opps...your Terran enemy overproduced vikings and their tank count is lower now? No problem, tech switch to ultra.
I also think it is a mistake you are going muta against mech. A good mech player will shut that down (unless they are really greedy) and make the mutas worthless. Just go roach drop and try to snipe their third while they are out of position. Roach trades to mech are so efficient, it will be easy to go to hive-tech and BL while keeping your opponent busy defending their bases. I play high master T mech, it gets me every time.
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On December 04 2012 10:58 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:46 admi_n wrote:
I play zerg and honestly hate the infestor. I think that what needs to happen is that the community needs to stop using them as a whole, as a show of dignity for zerg players. I have already dropped them from my play almost entirely.
thb, it reminds me a lot of the colossus. There is no way to argue that the colossus isn't ridiculously overpowered against zerg. Honestly, I can remember losing game after game to a protoss that I outplayed, simply because once the ball is rolling, nothing can engage it. The only reliable way to attack a protoss deathball is with BL/infestor. As a result, every game vs protoss I have to contain him on 2 bases, because once he's on his third, I can't win almost ever.
I also have a problem vs maxed terran mech. I feel like dealing with mech has stages: first I make ling/roach and contain the player, who decides to turtle up. I start to harass with mutas, bu soon thors get out of hand. I can still beat him with my roach composition for a while after this. However, once he is maxed, roaches are too supply-inefficient to engage him, so I can only win by counterattacks. I still lose most of my games against mech.
In ZvZ, playing infestor free is really easy, as long as you don't let him get more than 10 'festors of his own. Honestly though, with constant poking around with roaches, hydras, and mutas, I can still beat a player with very many infestors.
I remember watching lots of neurals pre-patch, and thinking how cool they were. I wish that blizzard would remove or change fungal growth. Honestly, if all fungal did was set up a field where units were slowed and lost armor, I think it would be about a million times better. Infested terran is a cool, unique spell, but I think it needs to be nerfed significantly. Personally, I would make it so IT required a cooldown, so that it couldn't be spammed. Also, making infestors 3 supply would probably be a good thing. Your position on infestors is probably why you're losing to mech. Take about 15 infestors, some BL and mass infested Terran while throwing some lings in and GG mech. Rinse and repeat...all you need is infestor energy. Opps...your Terran enemy overproduced vikings and their tank count is lower now? No problem, tech switch to ultra. I also think it is a mistake you are going muta against mech. A good mech player will shut that down (unless they are really greedy) and make the mutas worthless. Just go roach drop and try to snip their third while they are out of position. Roach trades to mech are so efficient, it will be easy to go to hive-tech and BL while keeping your opponent busy defending their bases. I play high master T mech, it gets me every time.
Yea... any Zerg who is still losing to TvZ Mech is doing some things seriously wrong.
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On December 04 2012 10:06 Young Terran wrote:
it pissed me off that you kept saying "white" this "white" that. I am black and i play terran NOT EVERYONE IS WHITE!
But overall it was a good read and was pretty amusing but seriously the infestor needs to be removed loved ling/bane/muta
but but --- white is just shorthand for lazy people not typing foreign
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On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:
How could this have happened? If this shift had to be explained by one reason, it would indisputably be the infestor and fungal growth.
No it's not the reason, infestors didn't change for quite some time before all this madness, seriously ... all of this infestor riding is only due to the patch that made queens retarded and overlords too fast.
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Lol I didnt realize it was that bad till i saw ipl5 xD
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Reading this was simultaneously amusing and depressing. For all the trolling and tin foil hattery, far too many of the criticisms are actually valid.
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On December 04 2012 10:52 Rance wrote:
Back in the day, if you were a top zerg, you were an instant fan favourite from 99% of the community.
Fruitdealer (Fell off SC2 quickly but no one will forget)
Idra (The Gracken)
Nestea (God of Zerg)
July (God of War)
Leenock (Went from Code A mainstay to trending on twitter at MLG Providence)
DRG( Won everyone's hearts at Blizzard Cup vs MMA and then just dominated)
Symbol (Made a name for himself at Iron Squid, then started killing it everywhere else)
Stephano (Simply a genius at using zerg to its full potential)
Nowadays if you win as zerg, it's just meh. Life is sick good and seems like the new Jaedong but w/e. Sniper already has an army of antifans. How times have changed.
I think Mvp becomes more popular every time a zerg wins.
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I have somewhat mixed feelings on this article. Its sensationalist and sarcastic at times but that doesnt prevent me from getting angry about the game while reading it. Everyone likes to read or hear people agree with them which instantly biases me on this topic because I agree with the lategame balance issues for zerg. That said get fungal out of the damn game or change it dramatically. Yes Im terran, yes im biased and personally tired of losing to zerg on ladder (which ive mostly stopped playing) but even if i suck i still want to see exciting games. The hsm buff does nothing to improve the overall quality of games, in a game where tvz was really the marquee matchup and kept people from focusing on how mediocre pvz has been (and its not any better now).
I like sc2, I want to like sc2 and I feel like the wilder parts of this article hurt its more focused points. Screw it dough, Im willing to contribute to bashing the core points over the head if only to make them harder to ignore. I personally am not willing to wait till hots for the chance that the zerg matchups will be changed in any significant way. TLPD korean top 10 is 7 zergs 2 toss and 1 terran with 4 zergs in top 5 thats right ima leave it goin dumb like that just kill the infestors fuck it! (MKP is 11th )
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EPT
