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On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job.
Don't worry, everything will be fixed with the introduction of the Messbats and the Useless Hosts. 
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On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job.
Well, I think terrans were slightly favored in TvZ at that point but since the maps were getting bigger, early pressure and timings were becoming less of an issue. Ad it was the early pressure and timings that Blizzard was trying to fix with the Queen and OL buff. But they overdid it and then balance was tilted again.
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On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job.
nonononononono... This is not how you tell this properly.
TvZ was balanced before blizzard randomly nerfed reapers!
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On February 22 2013 01:08 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 00:05 Assirra wrote:On February 21 2013 22:54 Big J wrote:On February 21 2013 22:44 vthree wrote:On February 21 2013 22:34 DidYuhim wrote:On February 21 2013 22:23 Ryps wrote:
I never liked how the vast majority of the community blames the players rather than the people in charge of balance. I would not play any other race even if zerg was the weakest race by far. The replies like "The X race was OP before, so it's okay that Zerg is OP now" are the most obvious reason. The funny thing is that this statement will be used once HoTS is out (assuming no major balance changes) and zergs start to struggle. Ah no... Swarm Host hydra Viper is going to dominate so hard that you guys WISH the Infestors still had 9range NP instead!  I really doubt that considering what the pro's say of the current balance in the beta. Even the other races say zerg is underpowered and struggling. Current Beta balance shouldn't even be a topic of serious discussion. Obviously the game will have major balance flaws upon release which will hopefully be smoothed out sometime afterwards. I mean Terran was the strongest race at the release of WoL and we all know how that shaped up.
The game is coming out in less then a month and the current beta is all we got to go in balance wise for HoTS atm.
And please, terran was still the best for a looong time so don't act like they got nerfed instantly. I would prefer to prevent 20 of 1 race in code S this time, thank you very much.
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On February 22 2013 02:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job. nonononononono... This is not how you tell this properly. TvZ was balanced before blizzard randomly nerfed reapers!
http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQ
Early 2012, TvZ fluctuates around 50 (+-3%) for few months straight
Blizard :"lets give Zerg free third base, we'll se what happens"
Post patch - May 2012 TvZ 45%, Blizard "ooops, but we cant admit mistake, lets pretend for few months its ok, we'll figure something out later "
Better version?
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Considering that blizzard were not able to balance WoL before Hots release, i think we will have a pretty balanced SC2 around 3 years after LoV release ^^
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On February 22 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 02:07 Big J wrote:On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job. nonononononono... This is not how you tell this properly. TvZ was balanced before blizzard randomly nerfed reapers! http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQEarly 2012, TvZ fluctuates around 50 (+-3%) for few months straight Blizard :"lets give Zerg free third base, we'll se what happens" Post patch - May 2012 TvZ 45%, Blizard "ooops, but we cant admit mistake, lets pretend for few months its ok, we'll figure something out later " Better version?
What about Korea? What about April - the month when the patch hit? You have two post patch winrates and cherrypick the one that is Z favored, while the other one is quite equal.
What about tournament results of early 2012, late 2011? What about Zerg repesentation in the GSL? People like you are whining these days when only 2 or 3 Terrans make it to the GSL Ro8... Look at how these representations looked for Zerg in GSL Season 1&2, Blizzard Cup. One. Maybe two. Or none. You know, people call 2012 a Zerg year. Well, look at the tournament winners of early 2012:
8T-3Z-2P; late 2011? 3T-1Z-1P
Sure, I'm also a believer that the queen patch was too much. But you know, the situation after it was no more imbalanced than the situation before.
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2 seasons without paying for the gsl (or any sc2 tournament for that matter), let's hope hots changes that.
Zerg had a 55% win ratio vs terran (GSL) if the entirety of 2012 is considered, which obviously includes the period before the queen patch, it is that bad.
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At the highest level of play, TvZ is probably Zerg favored. In lower leagues, it definitely is.
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you didnt do it right, this doesn't include all the gsl based tournaments, also its still 54,5% for whole matches.
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On February 22 2013 03:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:On February 22 2013 02:07 Big J wrote:On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job. nonononononono... This is not how you tell this properly. TvZ was balanced before blizzard randomly nerfed reapers! http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQEarly 2012, TvZ fluctuates around 50 (+-3%) for few months straight Blizard :"lets give Zerg free third base, we'll se what happens" Post patch - May 2012 TvZ 45%, Blizard "ooops, but we cant admit mistake, lets pretend for few months its ok, we'll figure something out later " Better version? What about Korea? What about April - the month when the patch hit? You have two post patch winrates and cherrypick the one that is Z favored, while the other one is quite equal. What about tournament results of early 2012, late 2011? What about Zerg repesentation in the GSL? People like you are whining these days when only 2 or 3 Terrans make it to the GSL Ro8... Look at how these representations looked for Zerg in GSL Season 1&2, Blizzard Cup. One. Maybe two. Or none. You know, people call 2012 a Zerg year. Well, look at the tournament winners of early 2012: 8T-3Z-2P; late 2011? 3T-1Z-1P Sure, I'm also a believer that the queen patch was too much. But you know, the situation after it was no more imbalanced than the situation before.
If you really believe in what you said last senetence there is not really room to discussion. If we look a the same chart and you come to that conclusion. Unless by "before" you reference to year earlier for example but that would be pointless i quess.
Also i showed you cumulative results of whole pro scene and you are saying i cherrypick. That's really cute. You are the one cherrypicking by pointing Korean scene witth 100 game a month (54% ZvT btw in March so just before patch) or tournaments winners.(frow what i remember if you count winners of turnaments in TLPD database Zerg is in 1st place for whole WoL history)
I dont know also why you bring early 2011, how its relevant to early 2012 and balance situatuon before patch?
Terran was broken first year, Zerg is broken since queen patch.
Also if you look at the situation after May it was not getting any better.
http://imgur.com/a/1iwo8
Luckily for Zerg players after August we dont have TLPD results anymore. They can now pretend thats everything is ok.
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Wow, still so many Terran's QQing in this thread lol? HotS comes out in less than a month and Terran is pretty powerful in the expansion. Go play that guys, pretty sure Blizzard isn't planning any more balance patches for WoL at this point ;-)
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On February 22 2013 04:45 IshinShishi wrote:you didnt do it right, this doesn't include all the gsl based tournaments, also its still 54,5% for whole matches.
matches don't count for winrate. They are already a product of winrate. It's a normal statistical effect that match winrates are higher than winrates... If winrates swing, matchwinrates naturally swing even harder and the longer you make series, the bigger the difference between winrate and match winrate will become.
So how did you do it to get the 55%?
To get the Team League and Blizzard Cup Results in the stats I manually added League+GSL sponsor results and calculated it: 52.9355% for ZvT
On February 22 2013 05:33 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:14 Big J wrote:On February 22 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:On February 22 2013 02:07 Big J wrote:On February 22 2013 01:54 keglu wrote:
Its funny how we had balanced game in april 2012 when Blizard decided to randomly buff queens and now almost a year later they still cant fix the problem they caused.
In short good job. nonononononono... This is not how you tell this properly. TvZ was balanced before blizzard randomly nerfed reapers! http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQEarly 2012, TvZ fluctuates around 50 (+-3%) for few months straight Blizard :"lets give Zerg free third base, we'll se what happens" Post patch - May 2012 TvZ 45%, Blizard "ooops, but we cant admit mistake, lets pretend for few months its ok, we'll figure something out later " Better version? What about Korea? What about April - the month when the patch hit? You have two post patch winrates and cherrypick the one that is Z favored, while the other one is quite equal. What about tournament results of early 2012, late 2011? What about Zerg repesentation in the GSL? People like you are whining these days when only 2 or 3 Terrans make it to the GSL Ro8... Look at how these representations looked for Zerg in GSL Season 1&2, Blizzard Cup. One. Maybe two. Or none. You know, people call 2012 a Zerg year. Well, look at the tournament winners of early 2012: 8T-3Z-2P; late 2011? 3T-1Z-1P Sure, I'm also a believer that the queen patch was too much. But you know, the situation after it was no more imbalanced than the situation before. If you really believe in what you said last senetence there is not really room to discussion. If we look a the same chart and you come to that conclusion. Unless by "before" you reference to year earlier for example but that would be pointless i quess. Also i showed you cumulative results of whole pro scene and you are saying i cherrypick. That's really cute. You are the one cherrypicking by pointing Korean scene witth 100 game a month (54% ZvT btw in March so just before patch) or tournaments winners.(frow what i remember if you count winners of turnaments in TLPD database Zerg is in 1st place for whole WoL history) I dont know also why you bring early 2011, how its relevant to early 2012 and balance situatuon before patch? Terran was broken first year, Zerg is broken since queen patch. Also if you look at the situation after May it was not getting any better. http://imgur.com/a/1iwo8Luckily for Zerg players after August we dont have TLPD results anymore. They can now pretend thats everything is ok.
The situation after May was missing tons and tons of games... As far as I remember the people who made those stats said themselves that they are not to be taken seriously...
I'm pointing towards Korea, because it is also relevant. The International Stats are flawed as hell as well, because the feature tons of stupid results of "Pro vs Amateur" players from online cups. Guess who wins those games regardless of balance? The Pro player. Guess what happens in the stats? They always tend towards 50-50 as they get "smoothed out" by a great deal from balance irrelevant games.
You can look at the flawed Korean or the flawed International stats in the end "only" picking one is cherrypicking.
And if you think I'm cherry picking with my comments above... I was not. I was adding stuff to your two or three evidences for balance, that you somehow forgot. I'm not saying that those are all the things out there to be considered... In the end we don't have "one tool" to determine balance. However closing your eyes to 50% Terran distribution and the top 10 TvZ/ZvT winrates only featuring one Zerg(DRG) in late2011/early 2012 (there was some thread about this, how basically every Code S Terran had TvZ as his best matchup) is just as wrong as denying that Zergs are overrepresentated in the later rounds of GSL and there being a miraculous rise of many "previously average" Zergs to suddenly play for premier tournament titles.
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On February 22 2013 02:16 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 01:08 SupLilSon wrote:On February 22 2013 00:05 Assirra wrote:On February 21 2013 22:54 Big J wrote:On February 21 2013 22:44 vthree wrote:On February 21 2013 22:34 DidYuhim wrote:On February 21 2013 22:23 Ryps wrote:
I never liked how the vast majority of the community blames the players rather than the people in charge of balance. I would not play any other race even if zerg was the weakest race by far. The replies like "The X race was OP before, so it's okay that Zerg is OP now" are the most obvious reason. The funny thing is that this statement will be used once HoTS is out (assuming no major balance changes) and zergs start to struggle. Ah no... Swarm Host hydra Viper is going to dominate so hard that you guys WISH the Infestors still had 9range NP instead! I really doubt that considering what the pro's say of the current balance in the beta. Even the other races say zerg is underpowered and struggling. Current Beta balance shouldn't even be a topic of serious discussion. Obviously the game will have major balance flaws upon release which will hopefully be smoothed out sometime afterwards. I mean Terran was the strongest race at the release of WoL and we all know how that shaped up. The game is coming out in less then a month and the current beta is all we got to go in balance wise for HoTS atm. And please, terran was still the best for a looong time so don't act like they got nerfed instantly. I would prefer to prevent 20 of 1 race in code S this time, thank you very much.
people like you make these debates so frustrating... gsl percentages do not equal game balance.
There were more terran players. it's simple, like 50% of the players were terran. also terran had way more good players at the very top- mkp, mma, mvp, etc. zerg only had nestea of that quality, protoss only had mc. these players that I mention alone skew the statistics...
the players were figuring out the game at those times, as they still are, just much more subtlely. at those times, a huge part of skill was the innovation that the player could bring, and since the game was much less figured out at that point there was huge room for innovation. it's idiotic to talk about balance when every player used flawed and suboptimal builds in every single game, MC could dominate with his micro alone (because that's what stood out of the crowd really at that time), basically players won series at that time by doing builds noone ever did before, at that time they simply didn't know how to react to those things...
terran wasn't the strongest race, before amulet nerf it was protoss, and zergs player TERRIBLE at that time, terrible macro, no infestor usage (keep in mind that even though fungal dps was less, the root was much longer, broodlord+infestor was even more powerful with more efficient root spells), people actually thought broodlords and ultras were bad units at that time LOL ultras even got a huge aoe nerf, and theyre still extremely potent units now when their aoe is like half as big now.
point is, pro players necessarily played BAD at those times. it was all much more random than it is now. and the race representation was also uneven. you can't make statements like terran was the strongest race... maybe in beta. terran was the most represented race, that's true. but that doesn't mean the same.
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If GSL has 4 zergs in semi-final, it's such a sad way to end WOL balance.
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It should be fun to see the statistics not about winrates, but about the number of views of major tourneys for last few months.
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On February 22 2013 10:12 BakedButters wrote:
If GSL has 4 zergs in semi-final, it's such a sad way to end WOL balance.
Just means the four players were the best of the tournament.
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On February 22 2013 20:17 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 10:12 BakedButters wrote:
If GSL has 4 zergs in semi-final, it's such a sad way to end WOL balance. Just means the four players were the best of the tournament.
Haha, good one.
On a more serious note, Taeja spared us from the torture of ZvZ semi finals.
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On February 22 2013 20:17 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 10:12 BakedButters wrote:
If GSL has 4 zergs in semi-final, it's such a sad way to end WOL balance. Just means the four players were the best of the tournament.
LoL.Did you see yesterday Innovation?? The game on Daybreak was the best TvZ you will ever see.Defending so good,losing the 4th 4-5 times ans still win... INCREDIBLE! Next game Symbol just learned and Innovation had nothing to do.The moment Zerg go heavy Muta/ling/baneling denying Ts expansions,the game is over.As T you cant got the Zs macro and spread your units well enough in each corner to defend,expand and guess what??: Harass! Its just impossible. HotS wont change anything in TvZ.Hellbats are still being nerfed till the ground and T still got no way to harass the triple expanding Z in early...
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EPT
