Im okay with current PvP, but "4gate era" was way better. 4gate was problem for only newbie players who didn't know how to play the match-up.
Any high level protoss would agree that PvP was more about skill before ramp fixes

Ansinjunger

United States2451 Posts

November 25 2012 04:25 GMT

#62

Some 4 gate games are very entertaining. I still remember Huk vs Socke (Maybe was Kiwikaki) at the first SC2 MLG. I don't recall if those games were 4 gate or 2 or 3, but the one game on Blistering Sands was a very entertaining micro battle.

On the other hand, sometimes a player just falls over dead. I don't think there's a magic fix unless hopefully HotS.

BearStorm

United States795 Posts

November 25 2012 04:26 GMT

#63

The addition of the MS core in HOTS will probably remove the situations that lead to coin flips in matchup. However I will say that feedback on the Oracle instead of the High Templar would make things more interesting imo.

PiQLiQ

Sweden702 Posts

November 25 2012 04:26 GMT

#64

There are so many bo's in PvP 4gate was just one of them.

MisterTea

United Kingdom1047 Posts

November 25 2012 04:28 GMT

#65

On November 25 2012 08:16 willyallthewei wrote:

However, from a competitive standpoint the 4 gate ensured one thing - the better player won almost 100% of the time.

the better player still wins, instead of micro 4gate battles, it's all about the right army composition and positioning correctly, for example i dont rememeber if it was gsl or OSL, Rain vs hero. Rain was so much better at controlling his army positioning and having the perfect composition that he won, hero kept engaging without pre splitting his colossi etc so they all get hit with 1 huge volley and die

and all matches have the rock paper scissors element if you dont scout properly and play blindly

rysecake

United States2632 Posts

November 25 2012 04:29 GMT

#66

The real question is...

4 gate? or max 200/200 colo wars.

you need me to answer this?

zezamer

Finland5701 Posts

November 25 2012 04:30 GMT

#67

4gate games were way better than colossi wars / tech flips

Glurkenspurk

United States1915 Posts

November 25 2012 04:33 GMT

#68

On November 25 2012 13:28 MisterTea wrote:

Show nested quote +

The biggest problem is that the superior player is harder to notice for spectators. Someone who doesn't understand lategame pvp army comps will just be confused why 2 immortals and an archon completely change a fight.

It's not like tvt where you can clearly see tank positioning, or zvz where.. well zvz sucks to watch too, stupid infested terrans.

TT1

Canada10045 Posts

November 25 2012 04:54 GMT

#69

the 4gate era was much less skill intensive than the current era because it was almost impossible to open w/ a duo gas build into sentrys. this in turn, forced less 1base stargate openers which made 1base collosus styles way more viable. the 1 base collo style is wat made pvp sorta coinflippy, im sure every protoss player remembers how hard it used to be to expo in a collo vs collo scenario

the sight nerf on cliffs made it so sentry openers became more viable which in turn diversified the matchup. its funny if u think about it, 1 small ingame change completely turned the matchup upside down. 1base collo b.os used to be the go to style and phoenix openers were considered to be risky, nowdays its the other way around : D

WindWolf

Sweden11767 Posts

November 25 2012 05:00 GMT

#70

(From a spectator POV) I like the current PvP meta game better. The fact that we see more build-variations (Stargate-Phoenix openers is slowly becoming more popular) makes the game much much more interesting to watch. And it is not like the micro aspect has completely disappeared from PvP.

udgnim

United States8024 Posts

November 25 2012 05:08 GMT

#71

there are a lot more build orders and strategies in PvP now than during 4 gate era, but I'll take 4G vs 4G any time over colossus wars

really hope the Tempest in HotS diminishes colossus heavy comps in PvP

Drowsy

United States4876 Posts

November 25 2012 05:11 GMT

#72

One could definitely say it took more skill, but from a spectator/player perspective it was boring and monotonous as shit.

Qntc.YuMe

United States792 Posts

November 25 2012 05:14 GMT

#73

How is sticking to 1 variety of a build order best for pvp? Obviously more build chices is better

TheDougler

Canada8309 Posts

November 25 2012 05:17 GMT

#74

HELL NO.

Seriously that was waaaay worse.

eviltomahawk

United States11135 Posts

November 25 2012 05:22 GMT

#75

On November 25 2012 14:11 Drowsy wrote:
One could definitely say it took more skill, but from a spectator/player perspective it was boring and monotonous as shit.

It was also very repetitive. There are only so many 1-base plays that a spectator can endure no matter how skillful they are played. The threat of 4gates and other 1-base builds put so many limits on the matchup that smothered a lot of variety. And it was still very coinflippy.

aZealot

New Zealand5447 Posts

November 25 2012 05:30 GMT

#76

I don't like Colossus wars and prefer the constant aggression and micro of early/midgame PvP. But, the neutering of 4 Gate has had a massively positive effect on Protoss players and the overall PvP MU. Having watched Naniwa v Feast and MC v Grubby over the last couple of days, it's hard to argue that 4 Gate based PvP was better. Really, it wasn't.

thesums

Taiwan257 Posts

November 25 2012 05:40 GMT

#77

While it is good that the better player wins most of the time, I feel the matches need to be entertaining, both when playing and watching. The everyone 4 gating is just ridiculous to be honest. But right now in the meta game of the Korean pros, the 4 gate is not the necessarily the way to go, even if it is used still. When compared to BW, SC2 is a game that entails more luck and build orders, as seen with the rapid changes of winners. A champion can end up in the up&down matches very easily, even if that said champion has easier groups through selection. In BW, champions are able to reign for a longer time, and you would expect players like Flash or Jaedong to be able to get far in tournaments all the time. I wish SC2 would be the same, so you can support a player without fear of him disappearing after a season into Code B and below.

However I dislike HOTS as it is right now, it is expensive, new units are not well balanced, not well integrated and just not enough to justify the price of the game. The only thing worthy is the campaign which I might play (or I can just watch other people play it). I have watched a lot of HoTS gameplay from huskystarcraft and I really dislike what I see so far. Of course it is still in Beta, but I feel they need to make some drastic changes for it to become a good expansion.

Now BW players are coming to SC2 and are doing well considering the late start, which just shows the level in mechanics between the players.

Imbu

United States903 Posts

November 25 2012 05:50 GMT

#78

The premise that the 4gate dominated era would lead to the better player winning is way off. It allowed the better micro player win, since there were less decisions to make in a 4 gate vs 4 gate scenario and macro at that point of the game is much easier to manage.

While Colossus wars are becoming the end of every mid to late game PvP, it's much more interesting from both a spectator and player perspective to see the paths to get there. We can see a Protoss player slowly gain advantages through small harassment that culminates into a victory when his better upgrades and stronger composition eventually crushes his opponents.

docvoc

United States5491 Posts

November 25 2012 05:53 GMT

#79

God no, that was terrible. We might look back on it and romanticize it, but deep down all Protosses know it was one big game of rock, paper, scissors. It was literally knowing your opponent was doing what you are doing and the game is completely based off of if you are doing a defensive 3 gate / 4 gate, or an offensive 4 gate. Even more than that, it was about silly mistakes deciding entire games rather than large mistakes. 1 probe being off by a second meant WG being off by a couple seconds and losing the game at really high levels, not something I want to go back to

RaiKageRyu

Canada4773 Posts

November 25 2012 05:53 GMT

#80

Yea. I preferred the 4 Gate Wars back then too to the current mess of build order wins.

Doesn't mean I wish something even better replaced those two but don't its possible until warpgates receive a reworking.