No, because watching best of x's were extremely boring and predictable. Did we all forget the awful GSL Finals that was MC v Seed? What about Huk vs MC at MLG Orlando? Those were nearly universally hated series, and for good reason.The PvP's from the BWC and the IEM Singapore were so much better it's unbelievable. This thread is amazing proof that nostalgia is an ridiculously powerful force.

Chronos.

United States805 Posts

November 25 2012 00:25 GMT

#42

http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/342563446?t=2h19m28s

There's a link to the Grubby vs MC series at IEM yesterday. Watch it. You will know that PvP is much better than before.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

November 25 2012 00:25 GMT

#43

Well you see mass phoenix, even though it looks damn cool. And you see combinations like Zealot Immortal Archon Colossus. There is alot to micro (even more then 4 gate) and even more that is forgotten. For example the Warp gate mechanic. Killing your opponent 20 workers is no success if you can't delay the army of your opponent that just grew 20 supply of warpins.
So no 4gate was just a long hold where people were happy with not having to think of solutions, because no one else did. Right now we are in the same position. But at some point there will be another breakthrough. Phoenix play is a good example. At the end its funny that Protoss has no unit that could deal well with the Voidray, but you don't see it being build.

Warlike Prince

371 Posts

November 25 2012 00:30 GMT

#44

I liked the 4 gate days better than I like the colossus battles we get these days. But I also use to be a huge fan of BW zvz even though it was nothing but ling muta. Its not hard for me to make an argument that neither is what the game really should be even though its what I prefer to watch.

Kal_rA

United States2925 Posts

November 25 2012 00:34 GMT

#45

On November 25 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:

Show nested quote +

correct.

short games are boring. prefer longer games with lots of small micro battles over one micro battle that decides game in first 10 mins.

Maybe, but i loved jd's zvz in 09-10. he singlehandedly broke the bo coin toss with his insane execution beating 9pools with 12hatchs. Having a mu in sc2 with that much intensity and no room for error is always fun (imo)

jcroisdale

United States1543 Posts

November 25 2012 00:42 GMT

#46

the 4gate is 100% still around. WCS creator vs rain. Even with rain scouting it his still had some mis-micro and let the units in his base.

KimJongChill

United States6429 Posts

November 25 2012 00:46 GMT

#47

yes, was really fun to see cool micro.

Brett

Australia3820 Posts

November 25 2012 00:49 GMT

#48

No 4 gate, thanks. Boring as fuck.

Ameisenmann

Albania296 Posts

November 25 2012 00:50 GMT

#49

I really don't think so. Sure, theres something positive about quick and intense games with a lot of micro, but it was the same thing over and over again. Yes it might be skillbased in a way, but also very one-dimensional, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a skill-based game.

Todays PvP I feel is a lot closed to how it should be. It just suffers from some similar problems that other matchups have as well, it can be very BO dependant, the motivation to attack more than one time per game is very low, not many different lategame army combos possible. But I don't think thats necessarily the problem of the PVP matchup only.

HeroCommanD

England33 Posts

November 25 2012 00:51 GMT

#50

Short answer no, long answer is that it was incredibly coin flip orientated with the fact that if 1 unit was out of place you'd lose the game and get incredibly frustrated that it was the optimal build and anything else was considered bad therefore you were bad and called noob etc.

TrickyGilligan

United States641 Posts

November 25 2012 00:51 GMT

#51

It wasn't better, but at least it was over quickly.

althaz

Australia1001 Posts

November 25 2012 00:54 GMT

#52

I prefer modern-day PvP, I still almost always win, but now I get to build phoenixes!

sunglasseson

United States145 Posts

November 25 2012 00:57 GMT

#53

when you ask "is 4 gate better" you ask 1 question thats really two questions

which one is more skilled
which one is more fun to watch

the 4 gate era was imo the more skilled matchup because it was less rock paper scissors and i won 95 percent of my pvps as a high masters protoss.

the non 4 gate era (?) is more fun to watch because you see dif builds but i often get blind countered

if you think that the current meta game takes more skill then 4 gate consider this. every mirror matchup has the potential to be making the same units, so be it blink stalkers vs immortals or immortal/collosi vs immortal collosi you are going to be seeing most of the same units vs the same units the only dif being which of the 3 builds they opened with and which special unit gives the other side the adv in what way. why would ANY meta other then THE EXACT SAME BUILDS be ANY more skilled? its impossible. if i win 100 percent of my PvPs and we mirror each others builds im clearly the better micro player and since protoss is the easiest macro race its not like a macro battle would be important and the nature of late game pvp any better at determining the best player. is it exciting to watch? no, but there is no better balance then 6 stalkers vs 6 stalkers and for some reason one person keeps winning? skill

stargate beats robo

robo beats twilight

twilight beats stargate

none of these can be scouted in time to change your build it is 100 percent rock paper scissor

Zer atai

United States691 Posts

November 25 2012 00:59 GMT

#54

You make a good point, but I still think choosing the best building order, particularly on a particular map has the better player win

Valikyr

Sweden2653 Posts

November 25 2012 01:00 GMT

#55

On November 25 2012 08:34 astor wrote:

Show nested quote +

show me a game of sc2 with a lot of small battles, sc2 is all about big endgame 200/200 battle -> end
4 gate was cool tool to test players micro, now its all about BO
maybe someone will develop "4 gate" for 2 bases?

Have you ever even watched Starcraft?

sunglasseson

United States145 Posts

November 25 2012 01:01 GMT

#56

its called the 8 gate rofl

Ben...

Canada3485 Posts

November 25 2012 01:55 GMT

#57

The OP couldn't have said it better. That era was so much more fun. Games were only a few minutes but the whole time it was non-stop fun. You had to be good to win. It was all exciting. None of the stupid sit in your base and build colossus crap we have now.

I still 4gate every PvP. I have a fairly decent win rate with it too because I've done it for 2 years and most people are either out of practice for it or weren't around when it was popular (not to mention after that long the build is practiced down to the second now. Playing against other people who are the same is a ton of fun because it shows who can get the most utility out of their units and make the correct decisions). I tried to do the whole lategame PvP thing when it started getting to be more common and not only do I find it less fun, but it takes way longer and it doesn't feel like the better player wins (This goes both ways. I've played people obviously worse than me who won because I lost a colossus to bad pathing. I've also beat people I have no right beating because it is obvious they are significantly better than me but I caught them out of position once after they beat me the whole game).

PvP was my favourite matchup until 4gate was nerfed into oblivion, then it turned into the stale RPS game it is today. But the 4gate still works, you just have to be smart about it now. You have to play mind games, make it look like you are doing something else. Or you just have to abuse people's laziness and hide probes in creative places or wait for their zealot and stalker to move out before sneaking into their base. Or you can just brute force it, which is what I usually do now. They miss one forcefield, they die, or if they let a single zealot up. after the pylon finishes.

PvP is going to suck so much in HOTS. No warping onto the high ground is going to make it easier to turtle behind a couple sentries. Hopefully it isn't worse than it is now.