I always disregard the term, for it seems to be used only for expression of disdain more than anything else.
The meaning of "gimmicky" - Page 3
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I always disregard the term, for it seems to be used only for expression of disdain more than anything else. | ||
Achaia
United States643 Posts
On November 24 2012 22:17 blug wrote: I don't really like these threads "What's an all in, what's cheese, what's gimicky...". It's quite obvious as to what a gimmick is just by looking it up on the net. It's basically just to trick your opponent (Mass Hydra/Nydus.... Cancelling your Gases after they have scouted them....) /end thread I don't think that half of the things you listed are gimmicky. Cancelling gases after they've been scouted can just be smart. I recently watched a ZvT in the GSL (I think MKP was the Terran) where the Zerg scouted 3CC and immediately cancelled his Lair and went into a Roach/Ling/Bane bust. Was that gimmicky? I would say no, he scouted a greedy opening an responded accordingly. I tend to think that gimmicky is more along the lines of blind all in cheeses. BitByBitPrime comes to mind here. Old school all-in 4 gates are gimmicky. Quick double StarGate play PvZ. These are things that all used to be popular because they could get wins very easily. As people figured them out though they fell out of style because the wins were based on the novelty of the gimmick that no one had solved yet. p.s. Also, your snide /end thread comment should have just been /thread. If you're going to be an internet snob at least do it right. Bahaha, was reading through quotes and this made me laugh. Not that I agree with it necessarily, just funny! :D On November 28 2012 23:27 Let it Raine wrote: It would actually be a picture of Protoss | ||
Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On November 28 2012 23:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: + Show Spoiler + People use the word gimmicky way too broadly. It's disappointing even in this thread, to see all these people's definitions related to rushes, cheeses, etc. or simply "non standard" stuff. What the definition means is more that you're attracting attention, but not in the kind of "trick" you guys are describing. Different definitions differ of course, but the word "trick" isn't the only way to describe the definition of the word gimmick. What it really means when it says "trick" is, as this definition says, to attract attention. It is to not to gain some strategic advantage in an RTS game..It does not have to do with your opponent being deceived. A gimmick is something that works just as well as something that isn't a gimmick. The difference in the gimmick is that it serves the same purpose, except that it differs in some insignificant way that causes it to attract attention. Some examples: Splitting workers 1-1-1-1-1-1 instead of 3-3. (Where the player splits them in such a way that both ways, executed at the speed of the player, results in exactly the same mineral income). Spelling the word "HI" with your depots in your base. Doing extractor trick (given the speed at which the player does it on the given map results in exactly the same mineral income). Now, although the kinds of gimmicks in SC2 are quite few (or at least insignificant to note due to almost or virtually no strategic difference), I guess you could say certain things are "gimmicky" in the sense that they are not perfect gimmicks, but they are similar to gimmicks. Things that are different to attract attention, but do have slight differences in strategic value. Examples: Using a warp prism for a Colossus only for killing the opponent's roaches, which results in a straight up confrontation between the P and Z armies, of which the result is similar to if they simply used that time building a warp prism to get out the next colossus faster, and have that colossus fight. The warp prism micro attracts attention, but the result is not really beneficial, if at all. Calling down a MULE to repair your army when you aren't going to even engage soon, and your opponent happens to not engage. Bringing some SCVs could be a better choice, but calling down a MULE is flashy. Using hydras to, when very ahead, kill an opponent, instead of any other zerg unit which would probably be better in most cases. You can't call most things (if not everything) that Boxer does as gimmicky. Perhaps remotely gimmicky, but most of the interesting things he does actually have different strategic value. For example, on Terminus RE, he would put a marine and SCV behind a depot at the xel naga tower. That is actually useful because he can control the tower easily and efficiently until the zerg player gets something other than zerglings -- of which they would have to reveal their tech/army movement to Boxer. Spoilered quote for length. Gimmicks do involve attracting attention of course, but they don't specifically have to be designed to attract, they just happen to attract attention, and it could be just the viewers attention they attract instead of the opponent. It doesn't mean that they can't have strategic use. A defensive nuke has strategic use, but it also attracts attention. Other games may have level gimmicks like Sonic 2 where there are hill top catapults or metropolis screws. They attract attention because they are unique, but they don't have to be designed to attract attention. And how is putting a marine and scv behind a depot at the tower not a gimmick? Also I said he got famous for using many gimmicks, that means in bw. He would do things like fake drop with his dropships to draw forces away while he attacks from another angle, research the rare optic flare just to blind observers for his cloaked wraiths, nuke rush and float an engi bay over the silo so the enemy couldn't see it, fly 4 barracks into the walled off enemy base, proxy barracks and lift off to a hidden base to confuse his opponents, wall his opponents mineral line with a barracks and build marines behind the minerals, deny scouts into an empty base to fake out his opponent. All things people today might label(whether correctly or incorrectly+ Show Spoiler + On November 28 2012 23:37 Fyrewolf wrote: You know who got famous for having incredible stunts but subpar fundamentals, which would be called gimmicky today? Boxer. | ||
deathmirage
United States9 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:42 poeticEnnui wrote: There's an easy answer we can provide to the definition with respect to Starcraft -- that is, a deviation from "standard play" such that a proper response to the "gimmick" in question would lead to a definite loss or at least disadvantage. OK, a little better. But: a) can't that be said about every game state in Starcraft? b) when a "gimmicky" tactic works with consistency, at what point does it stop becoming a "gimmick" and start becoming standard repertoire? I'm curious to hear what you, TL, have to say on the matter. tl; dr: Is MarineKing's blind 3CC/double Engineering Bay a gimmick? What about Destiny and CatZ's burrowed infestor play? CombatEX's cannon rushes? Bad_Habit six pooling to Grandmaster league? When do these things stop becoming gimmicks and simply become "builds?" a) People will insult any play style that potentially catches them off guard and that ends the game early. Getting beat by a couple DTs early game is frustrating, but that play isn't a gimmick anymore than it is a gimmick that the other player decided to hold off on getting detection to build their economy faster simply because most players won't explore this strategic option. b) It shouldn't matter if play is standard or not. This is a strategy game. All options should be left on the table to keep your opponent on their toes. You wouldn't play chess with the exact same opening every time, would you? So why would you in SC2? That's just makes your opponent comfortable in making unsound assumptions and getting away with it simply because most players follow suit. I can understand if people want to practice their late game macro/micro. But to just assume that your random opponent on ladder is equally interested in that is just silly. If you want to practice only late game then practice with some friends or play ladder and don't really get all bent out of shape when someone takes you out quickly. In all honesty, it doesn't matter how good you are late game if you can't make it there. Your strategy and build should account for that. Most late game strategies are quite greedy builds. | ||
Daitro
England31 Posts
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Xpace
United States2209 Posts
In any event, I'd wager that most people consider "gimmicky" within the context of Starcraft as simply "not common play". Something you see maybe a few times per tournament; or just from one player. If it is truly effective and is picked up on, then it no longer becomes "gimmicky". | ||
MVega
763 Posts
On these forums? Most of the time I see "gimmicky" used to describe anything that a player does that allows them to beat the favored player or the crowd favorite. If, for example, MarineKing were to beat Stephano, no matter what MKP did someone would call it gimmicky. Conversely if MKP was beaten by say ... InControl, no matter what InControl did it would be called gimmicky. | ||
SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
ex. not scouting greedy expands that cannot be held, not scouting for burrowed banes, not building the right unit composition.... etc... Basically something that relies on your opponent screwing up instead of you winning on even ground. | ||
Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On November 29 2012 01:14 deathmirage wrote: a) People will insult any play style that potentially catches them off guard and that ends the game early. Getting beat by a couple DTs early game is frustrating, but that play isn't a gimmick anymore than it is a gimmick that the other player decided to hold off on getting detection to build their economy faster simply because most players won't explore this strategic option. That's because both styles are gimmicky. Going for early DTs doesn't win you the game against standard play and probably puts you behind when it doesn't do enough damage. Going overboard on economy which opens you up to instadeath is also gimmicky since you're assuming your opponent won't play aggressive. Standard play is to play for the long term. You want good economy and macro to get a lead before the late game, but you don't want to die to aggressiveness, so you go for a middleroad where you go as economical as possible while staying safe. One could make the case that going for more economy at the cost of defense is a strategic choice, and maybe so, but it's a gimmicky play when you base your tactic on assumptions and luck. | ||
FeyverN
United States104 Posts
It's something that abuses certain aspects of the game. It's something that you would never lose to in a million years, but you did because it's abuse. | ||
Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On November 29 2012 01:58 SpikeStarcraft wrote: the trojan horse is gimmicky Great example of a gimmicky strategy. | ||
ScandiNAVIan
Korea (South)60 Posts
On November 24 2012 21:28 herMan wrote: Could you explain this? I mean I'm interested to know what special Bly does, I don't follow any zergs. I wouldnt advice you to go there. Bly ZvP openings are just retarded. | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On November 28 2012 23:46 Zenbrez wrote: Macro cheese? Cheese and greed are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum, not two different kinds of the same thing. You occasionally hear the term econocheese thrown out there, though mostly regarding Zerg and Terran (Quick thirds from Protoss don't seem to have the same effect). I agree with the sentiment that greed fundamentally differs from cheese or "gimmicky" play at its core. This is essentially a complaint that you were unable to punish/respond to that greed in any meaningful way; ergo their production/upgrades/general ability to spend superseded your own | ||
ScandiNAVIan
Korea (South)60 Posts
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
So I should knock on Protoss' door, and ask them to open up to my Trojan overlord? I would actually love to see that guy who had dialogues with people while establishing "embassies," in their base do this. | ||
ScandiNAVIan
Korea (South)60 Posts
On November 29 2012 03:51 ThomasjServo wrote: You occasionally hear the term econocheese thrown out there, though mostly regarding Zerg and Terran (Quick thirds from Protoss don't seem to have the same effect). I agree with the sentiment that greed fundamentally differs from cheese or "gimmicky" play at its core. This is essentially a complaint that you were unable to punish/respond to that greed in any meaningful way; ergo their production/upgrades/general ability to spend superseded your own Cheese and greed are not on the same spectrum. Greed is just another word for relying on thin* defense while getting from A to B at an accelerated pace. Macro cheese is risking to fall behind in case opponent does X which you cannot rule out in your efforts to get to B. Edit: typo | ||
jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
most disgusting thing about sc2 community is the cries of cheese this, cheese that. my friends do it all the time (@#$% cheese, i'll beat him normal game anytime) and i just shake my head. i mean shit, people are calling fast expands ECON CHEESE for fuck sakes i hope this mindset dies off... maybe when sc2 popularity die off and only hardcore players remain where majority of them dont give a single fuck on tactics/strategy to cry about. | ||
imMUTAble787
United States680 Posts
This usually means they take really dumb risks because they assume their opponent will respect them too much and let them get away with it. Or it could mean that they rely heavily on one aspect of their play and if that is shut down they have no ability to overcome that in other areas of their play. Either way its something you say about someone when you disrespect their style of play and they annoy you. | ||
nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
On November 24 2012 21:01 GhostFall wrote: A gimmicky strategy means it relies on some trick. A lot of cheeses and all ins are gimmicks, but it does not mean all gimmicky strategy are allins or cheeses. Example: DT builds are gimmicky. Doing a DT expand build is not cheesy or all in. It is a great build in some situations. Inca was called a gimmicky player because he relied on the trick, "DTs", all the time. All new strategies are "gimmicky". If this new strategy continues to work even after the trick is found out it becomes "solid". That means all strategies at one point were gimmicky. Immortal/Sentry all-in was a gimmick when it was first introduced. Now it is a solid strategy. There are some very famous players who became famous from gimmicky strategies like July and Bisu in Starcraft 1. This bisu build is probably the most notorious "gimmicky strategy" Most people use gimmicky like this as: I like this one the best as the answer to your question. I agree with what he's said here 100% | ||
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