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Active: 851 users

The meaning of "gimmicky" - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
November 28 2012 15:12 GMT
#41
In relation to sc2 i've only seen it in forums, where people were disappointed with certain (new) units or abilities or where people looked down on some (unfamiliar) strategies. Most of the time it's used as an point in itself, without further explanation.

I always disregard the term, for it seems to be used only for expression of disdain more than anything else.
Achaia
Profile Joined July 2010
United States643 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 15:15:46
November 28 2012 15:12 GMT
#42
On November 24 2012 22:17 blug wrote:
I don't really like these threads "What's an all in, what's cheese, what's gimicky...".

It's quite obvious as to what a gimmick is just by looking it up on the net. It's basically just to trick your opponent (Mass Hydra/Nydus.... Cancelling your Gases after they have scouted them....)

/end thread



I don't think that half of the things you listed are gimmicky. Cancelling gases after they've been scouted can just be smart. I recently watched a ZvT in the GSL (I think MKP was the Terran) where the Zerg scouted 3CC and immediately cancelled his Lair and went into a Roach/Ling/Bane bust. Was that gimmicky? I would say no, he scouted a greedy opening an responded accordingly.

I tend to think that gimmicky is more along the lines of blind all in cheeses. BitByBitPrime comes to mind here. Old school all-in 4 gates are gimmicky. Quick double StarGate play PvZ. These are things that all used to be popular because they could get wins very easily. As people figured them out though they fell out of style because the wins were based on the novelty of the gimmick that no one had solved yet.

p.s. Also, your snide /end thread comment should have just been /thread. If you're going to be an internet snob at least do it right.

Bahaha, was reading through quotes and this made me laugh. Not that I agree with it necessarily, just funny! :D

On November 28 2012 23:27 Let it Raine wrote:
It would actually be a picture of Protoss

http://www.youtube.com/SCBattleGrounds
Fyrewolf
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1533 Posts
November 28 2012 16:02 GMT
#43
On November 28 2012 23:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
People use the word gimmicky way too broadly. It's disappointing even in this thread, to see all these people's definitions related to rushes, cheeses, etc. or simply "non standard" stuff.

What the definition means is more that you're attracting attention, but not in the kind of "trick" you guys are describing. Different definitions differ of course, but the word "trick" isn't the only way to describe the definition of the word gimmick. What it really means when it says "trick" is, as this definition says, to attract attention. It is to not to gain some strategic advantage in an RTS game..It does not have to do with your opponent being deceived.

A gimmick is something that works just as well as something that isn't a gimmick. The difference in the gimmick is that it serves the same purpose, except that it differs in some insignificant way that causes it to attract attention.

Some examples:

Splitting workers 1-1-1-1-1-1 instead of 3-3. (Where the player splits them in such a way that both ways, executed at the speed of the player, results in exactly the same mineral income).

Spelling the word "HI" with your depots in your base.

Doing extractor trick (given the speed at which the player does it on the given map results in exactly the same mineral income).


Now, although the kinds of gimmicks in SC2 are quite few (or at least insignificant to note due to almost or virtually no strategic difference), I guess you could say certain things are "gimmicky" in the sense that they are not perfect gimmicks, but they are similar to gimmicks. Things that are different to attract attention, but do have slight differences in strategic value.

Examples:

Using a warp prism for a Colossus only for killing the opponent's roaches, which results in a straight up confrontation between the P and Z armies, of which the result is similar to if they simply used that time building a warp prism to get out the next colossus faster, and have that colossus fight. The warp prism micro attracts attention, but the result is not really beneficial, if at all.

Calling down a MULE to repair your army when you aren't going to even engage soon, and your opponent happens to not engage. Bringing some SCVs could be a better choice, but calling down a MULE is flashy.

Using hydras to, when very ahead, kill an opponent, instead of any other zerg unit which would probably be better in most cases.


You can't call most things (if not everything) that Boxer does as gimmicky. Perhaps remotely gimmicky, but most of the interesting things he does actually have different strategic value. For example, on Terminus RE, he would put a marine and SCV behind a depot at the xel naga tower. That is actually useful because he can control the tower easily and efficiently until the zerg player gets something other than zerglings -- of which they would have to reveal their tech/army movement to Boxer.


Spoilered quote for length. Gimmicks do involve attracting attention of course, but they don't specifically have to be designed to attract, they just happen to attract attention, and it could be just the viewers attention they attract instead of the opponent. It doesn't mean that they can't have strategic use. A defensive nuke has strategic use, but it also attracts attention. Other games may have level gimmicks like Sonic 2 where there are hill top catapults or metropolis screws. They attract attention because they are unique, but they don't have to be designed to attract attention. And how is putting a marine and scv behind a depot at the tower not a gimmick? Also I said he got famous for using many gimmicks, that means in bw. He would do things like fake drop with his dropships to draw forces away while he attacks from another angle, research the rare optic flare just to blind observers for his cloaked wraiths, nuke rush and float an engi bay over the silo so the enemy couldn't see it, fly 4 barracks into the walled off enemy base, proxy barracks and lift off to a hidden base to confuse his opponents, wall his opponents mineral line with a barracks and build marines behind the minerals, deny scouts into an empty base to fake out his opponent. All things people today might label(whether correctly or incorrectly+ Show Spoiler +
On November 28 2012 23:37 Fyrewolf wrote:
You know who got famous for having incredible stunts but subpar fundamentals, which would be called gimmicky today? Boxer.

) as a gimmick. You never knew what to expect from the master.
"This is not Warcraft in space" "It's much more...... Sophisticated" "I KNOW IT'S NOT 3D!!!"
deathmirage
Profile Joined November 2012
United States9 Posts
November 28 2012 16:14 GMT
#44
On November 24 2012 19:42 poeticEnnui wrote:
There's an easy answer we can provide to the definition with respect to Starcraft -- that is, a deviation from "standard play" such that a proper response to the "gimmick" in question would lead to a definite loss or at least disadvantage.

OK, a little better. But:

a) can't that be said about every game state in Starcraft?

b) when a "gimmicky" tactic works with consistency, at what point does it stop becoming a "gimmick" and start becoming standard repertoire?

I'm curious to hear what you, TL, have to say on the matter.

tl; dr: Is MarineKing's blind 3CC/double Engineering Bay a gimmick? What about Destiny and CatZ's burrowed infestor play? CombatEX's cannon rushes? Bad_Habit six pooling to Grandmaster league? When do these things stop becoming gimmicks and simply become "builds?"


a) People will insult any play style that potentially catches them off guard and that ends the game early. Getting beat by a couple DTs early game is frustrating, but that play isn't a gimmick anymore than it is a gimmick that the other player decided to hold off on getting detection to build their economy faster simply because most players won't explore this strategic option.

b) It shouldn't matter if play is standard or not. This is a strategy game. All options should be left on the table to keep your opponent on their toes. You wouldn't play chess with the exact same opening every time, would you? So why would you in SC2? That's just makes your opponent comfortable in making unsound assumptions and getting away with it simply because most players follow suit.

I can understand if people want to practice their late game macro/micro. But to just assume that your random opponent on ladder is equally interested in that is just silly. If you want to practice only late game then practice with some friends or play ladder and don't really get all bent out of shape when someone takes you out quickly. In all honesty, it doesn't matter how good you are late game if you can't make it there. Your strategy and build should account for that. Most late game strategies are quite greedy builds.
Daitro
Profile Joined April 2012
England31 Posts
November 28 2012 16:23 GMT
#45
it's just a term people who are upset about losing use to discredit their opponent's play.. "he just played really gimmicky"

Xpace
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2209 Posts
November 28 2012 16:38 GMT
#46
Not trying to armchair mod, but really I don't see the point of this thread, even in terms of discussion. It's like making a thread called "What constitutes as cheese?" or "What qualities make a bonjwa?" Team Liquid is one of the most diverse gaming forums I've ever been to; getting a general consensus on something so ambiguous and not exactly thought-provoking just has no point to it, especially when it's a term that's not exactly widely used.

In any event, I'd wager that most people consider "gimmicky" within the context of Starcraft as simply "not common play". Something you see maybe a few times per tournament; or just from one player. If it is truly effective and is picked up on, then it no longer becomes "gimmicky".
MVega
Profile Joined November 2010
763 Posts
November 28 2012 16:53 GMT
#47
To me? As a fan of BoxeR I would call BoxeR's play gimmicky. It wasn't standard at all, and sometimes he did very surprising off the wall things, it was just his thing. It was what he did, it was his gimmick. It wasn't a bad thing.

On these forums? Most of the time I see "gimmicky" used to describe anything that a player does that allows them to beat the favored player or the crowd favorite. If, for example, MarineKing were to beat Stephano, no matter what MKP did someone would call it gimmicky. Conversely if MKP was beaten by say ... InControl, no matter what InControl did it would be called gimmicky.
bumkin: How can you play like 50 games per day... I 4gate 2 times then it's nap time
SpikeStarcraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany2095 Posts
November 28 2012 16:58 GMT
#48
the trojan horse is gimmicky
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
November 28 2012 17:14 GMT
#49
I define gimmicky as a build that would not work if the opponent did not make a mistake in scouting or otherwise.

ex. not scouting greedy expands that cannot be held, not scouting for burrowed banes, not building the right unit composition.... etc...

Basically something that relies on your opponent screwing up instead of you winning on even ground.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
November 28 2012 17:16 GMT
#50
On November 29 2012 01:14 deathmirage wrote:
a) People will insult any play style that potentially catches them off guard and that ends the game early. Getting beat by a couple DTs early game is frustrating, but that play isn't a gimmick anymore than it is a gimmick that the other player decided to hold off on getting detection to build their economy faster simply because most players won't explore this strategic option.

That's because both styles are gimmicky. Going for early DTs doesn't win you the game against standard play and probably puts you behind when it doesn't do enough damage. Going overboard on economy which opens you up to instadeath is also gimmicky since you're assuming your opponent won't play aggressive.

Standard play is to play for the long term. You want good economy and macro to get a lead before the late game, but you don't want to die to aggressiveness, so you go for a middleroad where you go as economical as possible while staying safe. One could make the case that going for more economy at the cost of defense is a strategic choice, and maybe so, but it's a gimmicky play when you base your tactic on assumptions and luck.
FeyverN
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States104 Posts
November 28 2012 18:42 GMT
#51
My definition of gimmicky is something that relies on your opponent not scouting or something that requires the surprise factor in order to work.

It's something that abuses certain aspects of the game. It's something that you would never lose to in a million years, but you did because it's abuse.
fuck
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
November 28 2012 18:46 GMT
#52
On November 29 2012 01:58 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
the trojan horse is gimmicky


Great example of a gimmicky strategy.
Bora Pain minha porra!
ScandiNAVIan
Profile Joined November 2012
Korea (South)60 Posts
November 28 2012 18:48 GMT
#53
On November 24 2012 21:28 herMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 21:02 HuTSC2 wrote:
If you looked up gimmicky in the dictionary, there would only have to be a picture of Bly.


Could you explain this? I mean I'm interested to know what special Bly does, I don't follow any zergs.

I wouldnt advice you to go there. Bly ZvP openings are just retarded.
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
November 28 2012 18:51 GMT
#54
On November 28 2012 23:46 Zenbrez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 21:52 JKM wrote:
An offensive strategy that relies on not being scouted!

On November 24 2012 19:42 poeticEnnui wrote:
tl; dr: Is MarineKing's blind 3CC/double Engineering Bay a gimmick? "


that's a macro cheese (the worst form of cheese, because sheeple praise players for doing this kind of bullshit.

Macro cheese? Cheese and greed are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum, not two different kinds of the same thing.


You occasionally hear the term econocheese thrown out there, though mostly regarding Zerg and Terran (Quick thirds from Protoss don't seem to have the same effect). I agree with the sentiment that greed fundamentally differs from cheese or "gimmicky" play at its core. This is essentially a complaint that you were unable to punish/respond to that greed in any meaningful way; ergo their production/upgrades/general ability to spend superseded your own
ScandiNAVIan
Profile Joined November 2012
Korea (South)60 Posts
November 28 2012 18:51 GMT
#55
I dont understand this "gimmick" discourse. What did you expect? It's a game of imperfect information where scouting sacrifices a lot - of course "gimmicky" play is viable.
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
November 28 2012 18:55 GMT
#56
On November 29 2012 03:46 Sbrubbles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2012 01:58 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
the trojan horse is gimmicky


Great example of a gimmicky strategy.

So I should knock on Protoss' door, and ask them to open up to my Trojan overlord? I would actually love to see that guy who had dialogues with people while establishing "embassies," in their base do this.
ScandiNAVIan
Profile Joined November 2012
Korea (South)60 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 19:03:50
November 28 2012 18:56 GMT
#57
On November 29 2012 03:51 ThomasjServo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 23:46 Zenbrez wrote:
On November 24 2012 21:52 JKM wrote:
An offensive strategy that relies on not being scouted!

On November 24 2012 19:42 poeticEnnui wrote:
tl; dr: Is MarineKing's blind 3CC/double Engineering Bay a gimmick? "


that's a macro cheese (the worst form of cheese, because sheeple praise players for doing this kind of bullshit.

Macro cheese? Cheese and greed are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum, not two different kinds of the same thing.


You occasionally hear the term econocheese thrown out there, though mostly regarding Zerg and Terran (Quick thirds from Protoss don't seem to have the same effect). I agree with the sentiment that greed fundamentally differs from cheese or "gimmicky" play at its core. This is essentially a complaint that you were unable to punish/respond to that greed in any meaningful way; ergo their production/upgrades/general ability to spend superseded your own

Cheese and greed are not on the same spectrum. Greed is just another word for relying on thin* defense while getting from A to B at an accelerated pace.
Macro cheese is risking to fall behind in case opponent does X which you cannot rule out in your efforts to get to B.

Edit: typo
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 18:58:28
November 28 2012 18:57 GMT
#58
gimmick is the new cheese?

most disgusting thing about sc2 community is the cries of cheese this, cheese that.
my friends do it all the time (@#$% cheese, i'll beat him normal game anytime) and i just shake my head.
i mean shit, people are calling fast expands ECON CHEESE for fuck sakes

i hope this mindset dies off... maybe when sc2 popularity die off and only hardcore players remain where majority of them dont give a single fuck on tactics/strategy to cry about.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
imMUTAble787
Profile Joined November 2011
United States680 Posts
November 28 2012 18:59 GMT
#59
When I hear 'gimmicky' as a way of describing someones style of play I usually just interpret it as they play in a way that if their opponent is aware of how they play they have a much lower chance of winning.

This usually means they take really dumb risks because they assume their opponent will respect them too much and let them get away with it. Or it could mean that they rely heavily on one aspect of their play and if that is shut down they have no ability to overcome that in other areas of their play.

Either way its something you say about someone when you disrespect their style of play and they annoy you.
*eternalenvy fanboy*
nakedsurfer
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada500 Posts
November 28 2012 19:01 GMT
#60
On November 24 2012 21:01 GhostFall wrote:
A gimmicky strategy means it relies on some trick. A lot of cheeses and all ins are gimmicks, but it does not mean all gimmicky strategy are allins or cheeses.

Example: DT builds are gimmicky. Doing a DT expand build is not cheesy or all in. It is a great build in some situations. Inca was called a gimmicky player because he relied on the trick, "DTs", all the time.

All new strategies are "gimmicky". If this new strategy continues to work even after the trick is found out it becomes "solid". That means all strategies at one point were gimmicky. Immortal/Sentry all-in was a gimmick when it was first introduced. Now it is a solid strategy.

There are some very famous players who became famous from gimmicky strategies like July and Bisu in Starcraft 1. This bisu build is probably the most notorious "gimmicky strategy"

Most people use gimmicky like this as:
Show nested quote +

"gimmicky (adj.) - a term used by angry players to justify their losses in a pathetic attempt to deligitimize their opponent's success"


I like this one the best as the answer to your question. I agree with what he's said here 100%
Root4Root
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