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On November 12 2012 08:51 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 08:34 Figgy wrote:On November 12 2012 02:51 NKexquisite wrote:On November 12 2012 02:48 Melaine wrote:On November 12 2012 02:45 c0sm0naut wrote:On November 12 2012 02:41 Melaine wrote:
Fungle has been nerfed several times over the years......I don't understand the fuss.....Terran+protoss had their flavor of the month op, terran was op for 2 years and we had only Terran Gsl's, zerg has few months of great results......and people cry like mad???
This is the only Gsl season code s out of years and many seasons that we finnaly have alot of zergs in the group....and its not because of infestor.....infestors were the same as they were last year and zergs were losing.....only change was the Korean Zergs got better........you guys act like they did a major buff on infestors and all the sudden they are op.
Such silly things people choose to cry about just because their race is losing. I'm surprised Team Liquid puts up with the mass infestor posts and does not start deleting most of them. im surprised you can be so frustrated when the majority of people on this website especially the older players with more RTS experience would tell you that the infestor is bad for Sc2 and bad for esports. if you truly love the zerg race you will understand that they might have to nerf your "support caster" to fill it's role as a support caster and pick up the slack in other areas zerg lacks like harass lategame and unit efficiency without infestor support. My post is not "frustrated" it's just stupid and dumb what people in America choose to cry over, When the GSL casters themselfs and tons of Korean pros have stated, that zerg is strong right now because of the player not because of infestors. People just seem to want to cry over every little thing, last year it was "Protoss is op vs terran" and then mvp showed you people how to play and the crying went away. If infestors are so "op" then why was zerg losing all last year??? Infestor was the same last year as it is now?? All I see is the PLAYER getting better in South Korean, and people in other places just seem want to cry about it instead of trying to get better. Last year we had mostly Protoss and Terrans in Code s, Now its still Terrans, and zerg picked up the slack.....All I see is Players getting better, and the intro of Kespa skill..... Maybe the Zergs finally figured it out? No, the man is correct about infestors. Infestors were never the problem, the new 5 range queens are. 5 range Queens barely affect PvZ. What actually happened was Zergs figured stuff out and realised that Infestors are broken as hell.
Massive use of Infested Terrans has only started within the last year or so, right? So yep ... Zerg finally figured it out that they can get free units for just 25 energy and that they can use them to tear down bases with zero risk involved for example.
On November 12 2012 09:14 Dunmer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 09:12 ROOTT1 wrote:On November 12 2012 09:09 Dunmer wrote:
Buff feedback against psionic, hence dealing with infestors/ghosts and nerf it against everything else.
i swear to god ill be so fucking mad if blizzard ends up buffing snipe and feedback, that would screw tvp up I didn't mean to change snipe at all, sorry if that was unclear. I mean to change feedback the way snipe was to that it is in fact buffed against infestors and nerfed against regular units.
If you buff Feedback you dont buff it against Infestors only. TERRIBLE idea because Feedback is too good already by making Thors and Ravens and Battlecruisers useless in a TvP.
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What the people who list tournament wins and statistics are totally forget is that winning isnt everything and watching is very important. As a viewer of tournaments I think that seeing masses of fungaled units unable to move is a terrible thing ... in such a game of "high speed action". The same is true for masses of Banelings rolling into a bunch of Terran infantry and then exploding in a big blob of green ... and if there are still most of the Zerglings and Banelings alive people just say "sucks to be you Terran; learn to split". The thing is that micro *should be* required from the attacker and not the defender to keep the fights fair, since the attacker is already choosing the most advantageous position for him to fight in.
Terrans can screw themselves over ... stimming too much? sieging and unsieging at the wrong time? spread out your units too much and you die to Zergling/Baneling piecemeal, keep them together and you get fungaled and banelinged. Where is the point where Zerg screw themselves? If Blizzard could add some "price" to the Infestor abilities - like the immobility of the Siege Tank is the price for its attack or the hit points lost is the price for stimming - then it wouldnt be as bad if Infestor abilities are powerful.
Suggestion:
1. Remove Neural Parasite and replace it with "Consume" from the Defiler (ratio of energy should be "cost in minerals of the unit reduced by the amount of hp missing").
2. Increase the energy cost for Fungal to 125 (like Seeker Missile) and Infested Terran to 50 (like autoturret).
This would keep the abilities as they are and make them less spammable "for free". The research for Consume needs to be late.
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Ugh you zergs. Ballistic, I thank you for replying to my post level-headedly, even if I don't agree with your points. Splitting marines takes far more effort to do than a moving banelings or fungal. The protoss deathball has not worked since the beginning of 2012; not since Stephano invented the much maligned 13 minute roach remax. Protoss is now a plethora of coin flippy allins.
I'm sorry, but really, infestor-broodlord is downright ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The number of pros who agree are ever growing. I'd say brace yourselves for the nerfs. I for one look forward to a ZvX late game which is less boring in the future. For now, skipping every single ZvX game. It's dumb and retarded how any one tiny mistake from a P/T or even a Z in a ZvZ results in insta-losses thanks to fungal.
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On November 12 2012 15:42 Ballistixz wrote:
FYI, if you split your units you can significantly weaken the ammount of damage fungal does to ur army. if u clump marines together, its ur fault if u lose 20-30 of them to fungals. you split against banelings so why not fungals?
You have some reaction time against banelings, against fungal an instant spell, there isn't much you can do. You also can't always expect to position and move your marines where fungal is wasted - in other words, due to the pathing and speed of the game fungal will almost always be cost-effective even if you play extremely well with 600APM. The times it isn't cost effective is in low numbers (early game, or, late-late game).
All they have to do to fix fungal is remove the root. You can keep it instant speed. You can keep the damage the same, it's just the goddamn root that makes it so unbelievably good. You know if you even get hit with one fungal you might as well say goodbye to those units - which is pretty piss poor design. It entirely removes micro from the equation and the game mechanics punish the opposing player even more due to the pathing.
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Would agree with those saying the queen buff is also a significant factor in zergs recent successes. It is an absolutely ginormous buff to zerg early game vT (and thus the whole game). It changed the shape of the matchup forever into a far more boring one as well.
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Also, to ballistic who says you don't enjoy forcefields, colossi or vortex:
Forcefields still require more skill than fungal. They can be a double edged sword if not placed down perfectly. They require apm, and is not a guaranteed trap against a smart opponent. Fungal traps regardless of, well, anything. It just traps. FF also allows for sick micro like burrow or medivac pickups. Not to mention smart tactics like using massive units to break ff walls early (this is a highly prevalent strategy in PvP).
Colossi, granted, are another stupid unit, but they have to be babysat and have hard counters. Tell me, how exactly do you hard counter infestors? The versatility of colossi (or lack thereof) does not begin to compare with infestors.
Vortex is another one of those abilities that restrict micro, and unlike ff it is guaranteed. However there is one more factor at play here: the caster itself. The mothership is slow, expensive, large, inconspicuous, and the cast range for vortex is extremely short. Granted that the vortex is a stupid coin flippy mechanic designed to counter broodlords, and I would take any option over it, but still, fungal is way easier and to pull off.
I understand you seem to be trying to promote the idea that the game is fundamentally designed badly; I would agree to a slight extent. However it doesn't mean infestors are fine now. As I've said before, I wouldn't mind zerg dominating if zerg games were actually interesting to watch. Infestor/blord= a skillless unit comp every game, and that bores the shit out of me. The game is both unwatchable and unplayable when there are zergs in it. You agree that you don't like watching fungal, hence, wouldn't a change in the spell be the ideal solution for all of us? It's a win-win. If hydras and ultras (the only 'bad' units in the zerg arsenal; I don't buy the thought that "all zerg units are shit except infestors) were buffed to compensate, I'm sure the game would be more interesting and balanced and fun to play as a whole.
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Fungals are bad enough, but I don't recall anyone mentioning that ITs have a ridiculous effective range of 14,
In ZvT, once infestors sneak into a base, they're like dts with 14 range. If you happen to not look at where the eggs came from, the possible locations of infestors lie in a circle of radius 14 around the egg locations, expanding at the speed of burrowed infestors. I've see many GSL games where infestors do their damage and remain hidden even after the opponent checks with multiple scans.
In ZvP, force fields don't mean much (although force field is a stupid spell) against 14 effective range; tanks only have 13 range and are good against force fields. I've seen many GSL games where the protoss casts force fields to defend 3rd, but eggs fly in from 9 range and hatch into ITs with 5 range, still doing a lot of damage. During late game, infestors are difficult to reach assuming the Zerg player is competent at taking advantage of the 14 effective range.
Nerf IT casting range to 5 would seem reasonable. 10 effective range is still quite long. Of course, if this is too much of a nerf, then buff other units. The point is to make infestors not 10 times more appealing than any other Zerg unit in most situations.
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As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle.
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On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle.
How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays.
As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers.
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On November 12 2012 17:39 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle. How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays. As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers.
This kind of goes back to effective range of ITs (14).
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I don't like infestors but what about a different approach to nerfing them?
They are pretty strong already. What about buffing them even more and making them expensive and/or cost more supply? That way they could become a support unit, like HT. Right now, they can fulfill the role of a core unit in many compositions.
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Yeah if they nerf fungal, we'll see a huge drop of zergs in tournaments (should I remind some of you that zergs arent dominating as hard as everyone is saying? Guys like Stephano, Life, Leenock, outplay their opponents, HARD, I'm not saying I know everything about balance, but damn, it took 10 months of a HUUUUGE terran domination for Blizzard to move, now that zergs finally win a good proportion of recent high level tournaments, the world is suddenly ending).
I do think the projectile fungal might be good, but other than that zerg rely absolutely on infestors due to our race "flow", siege tanks, colossus, force fields, zerg has 0, absolutely 0 control (also talking about "space control" granted for high range AOE units) except for fungal. And it is also the only way for zergs to stop air without commiting to hydras who are a shitty unit (yeah Stephano made them work one fucking game, and it was such a non sense that he had to make a joke about it), I'm not taking in a design perspective, I do think fungal is quite dumb, just like forcefields, it's not good gameplay / esport, but at the moment it is necessary, maybe if they tweak swarm host, buff hydras for HotS, we could avoid having fungals, or simply as some sort of AOE poison + slow instead of a lockdown, but people crying for OP OP OP ZERG are really blind if they think it's clearly imbalanced, dont know about you but I still see pros beating the shit ouf of zergs as good as them just because they're smart and they adapt to the current metagame, just like Nestea managed to beat well executed 2 raxx scv all ins when no one else could in Korea ages ago.
I understand the frustration of deeply thinking that the game is unbalanced, I felt that as a zerg and clearly 28 patches proved me right, but at the stage we're at? Game is fairly balanced, and even if it's only "fairly", people have to show patience because to actually fix it without ruining the pro scene is a really hard thing to do right now, look at how a simple buff on the queen shifted the metagame and tournament results... Patience ffs
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On November 12 2012 17:39 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle. How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays. As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers.
ok, the context is super late game with lategame zerg with infestor versus midgame terran with complete upgrades.
ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer. Now that is something you can do. You can't afford to lose ghosts yes, as zerg players can't afford to lose infestors.
More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once. You should take advantage of this. People like you are always assuming the outcome of a game is all big front battles. Remember, a broodlord army, is a higher tier army than your marine-tank-medivac-marauder. You can't expect to win a face to face fight if you have this kind of army. You should be threatening his economy and his tech.
Its easy to say, just learn to play!! Think! But that would give me a ban/warning so. There it is.
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On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle.
Terran use ghosts en masse against protos. They are really used alot, so we got experience how to use them. Did you ever consider we tried to use them against zerg but it just doesnt work? Zerg can have pretty much infinite detection out, there is no sniping that, so they also dont have to keep them back to prevent their detection from being sniped. One fungal and your ghosts are all dead, not to mention those ghosts have to survive past the broodling walls created by the broodlords and the IT walls by the infestors.
ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer
And why exactly in the late game wouldnt the zerg have 10 of this unit called 'overseer' above his army?
But what you are saying is that zerg should autowin against terran, because zerg had higher tier army, the terran higher tier army isnt particulary great, so since zerg has higher tier they should win. Good to know.
But since you are obviously such a great player who can tell us we should just learn to play, why dont you upload a replay how it went for you?
More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once
They dont need to be, a single infestor shuts down drops in a base completely.
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On November 12 2012 18:22 Discarder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:39 xAdra wrote:On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle. How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays. As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers. ok, the context is super late game with lategame zerg with infestor versus midgame terran with complete upgrades. ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer. Now that is something you can do. You can't afford to lose ghosts yes, as zerg players can't afford to lose infestors. More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once. You should take advantage of this. People like you are always assuming the outcome of a game is all big front battles. Remember, a broodlord army, is a higher tier army than your marine-tank-medivac-marauder. You can't expect to win a face to face fight if you have this kind of army. You should be threatening his economy and his tech. Its easy to say, just learn to play!! Think! But that would give me a ban/warning so. There it is.
Think about this.
Pro players, meaning people that have increadibly insight in the game, all agree that there are situations where the Infestor is too strong. Even Zerg pro's accept this proposition. This situation is way beyond us diamond/master players to insightfull comment about.
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If infestors gets nerfed protoss is going to dominate both zerg and terran.
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On November 12 2012 18:49 Csong wrote:
If infestors gets nerfed protoss is going to dominate both zerg and terran.
ya some master zerg who heavily rely on infestors play will drop to diamond but the win rate will still be 50%.
Korean zerg will continue to dominate, players like DRG and Leenock are very good in mid game aggressive builds. Infestors are like bonus to Life, but his skills allow him to win games easily.
toss dont dominate terran, it is quite a balance match up. End game protoss dont auto win against terran.
But i do agree zergs need some form of defense against immortal all in. If blizzard can nerf/change infestors in a very reasonable way, maybe they can more accessible in the early mid game. who knows. At least some change are coming
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On November 12 2012 18:32 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 18:22 Discarder wrote:On November 12 2012 17:39 xAdra wrote:On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle. How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays. As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers. ok, the context is super late game with lategame zerg with infestor versus midgame terran with complete upgrades. ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer. Now that is something you can do. You can't afford to lose ghosts yes, as zerg players can't afford to lose infestors. More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once. You should take advantage of this. People like you are always assuming the outcome of a game is all big front battles. Remember, a broodlord army, is a higher tier army than your marine-tank-medivac-marauder. You can't expect to win a face to face fight if you have this kind of army. You should be threatening his economy and his tech. Its easy to say, just learn to play!! Think! But that would give me a ban/warning so. There it is. Think about this. Pro players, meaning people that have increadibly insight in the game, all agree that there are situations where the Infestor is too strong. Even Zerg pro's accept this proposition. This situation is way beyond us diamond/master players to insightfull comment about.
While generally pros will have more insight in the game, you dont need to be a pro to understand the dynamics. As an example: I understand fine how I should split my marines perfectly against banelings, I just cant do it myself.
And second, I can comment how it is on the ladder: infestors, infestors everywhere. Nice if we can watch tournaments that dont revolve around 40 infestors in an army, but also at my level (diamond) I wish there was more than infestors going on.
For the zergs who still claim everything is fine and we should just adapt, I wished you adapted to queens with normal range so we wouldnt now be stuck with stupid range queens. But dont worry, I adapted to the new metagame where zerg absolutely dominates all late game play. And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who adapted this way: when the map allows it I simply 2 rax every zerg opponent I get. Not perfect, but works quite reasonable.
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On November 12 2012 18:49 Csong wrote:
If infestors gets nerfed protoss is going to dominate both zerg and terran.
Unless blizzard decides to be smart (and awesome) and nerf infestor but buff zerg in other areas to compensate, so that zerg doesn't HAVE to go infestors to win games.
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if they nerf the infestor but make hydras much better by comparison wouldn't that be the optimal solution? it would make an imba unit less imba and an unused unit useful
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I really don't understand how people can compare fungal with siegetanks, forcefield or colossi.. it's obvious that they've never played against 25 infestors. I've read here that Leenock has outplayed HARD, and i would say to you that is wrong.. infestors have outplayed, not Leenock or every other player that abuse of this unit, because making 30 infestors is an absurd abuse, it's like cheating.. and they win a lot of money..
Really, let's compare fungal with forcefield (I really don't like ForceField, they're one of the main problem of protoss):
ForceField:
- Can be Dodged
- Requires Skill to be useful
- Strong in early-mid game
- Less useful when the supply grows
- If used poorly they advantage the opponent
Fungal:
- Can't be dodged, u have to pre-split army.. and u will be just covered by eggs
- No skill involved to use, Life fungals are pretty the same of mine.. and I don't play zerg
- Strong from the first infestor till the end of game
- Chain fungal just win a game for you
Two bad designed spells, but one is tollerable.. the other is pretty disgusting, and this is not a problem of mine.. I play at a low level (Master EU), I can win against zerg.. I don't like to be forced to a 2 base allin every game but I can win.. the problem is, when in a tournament there's a XvZ I just leave the stream.. at 90% I know how the game will be won by infestors, or on the other hand, there will be an allin to stop the zerg.
And for the god sake, zergs aren't forced to get 30 infestors to win, they've played decently for 1 year before a stupid patch brought to you this op unit, the entire zerg metagame is a huge abuse to reach bl/infestor because is nearly unstoppable.. and zerg players should blame blizzard for that, not getting undeserved leagues and troll people on ladder. I hope that patchzergs will return where they deserve to be.
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EPT
