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2230 Posts
On November 14 2012 18:38 JohnMadden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 18:19 [F_]aths wrote:On November 13 2012 19:43 bokeevboke wrote:
Developers might be qualified, but the leader always decides how things gonna be. Considering that sc2 lead designer is from C&C and BfME -esque rts games no wonder that starcraft 2 isn't what we wanted it to be. At least for majority of us. There is a difference ib what we wanted SC2 to be – and what needed it to be. Because it makes it simple, lets exaggerate a bit and assume SC2 would have been essentially BW in 3D with widescreen support and some changed / new news. Let's say, SC2 would have copied the quirks in the unit control (sometimes you need to use hold position, sometimes you need the patrol command for maximum effect.) The guys who were interested in BW would probably have loved the game. But how big would SC2 have been? Would it have justified 6+ years of development? To support a game, the developer needs to make money. To make money, they need to attract the masses. To keep the masses, they also need to attract hardcore players and professional players. If this would be an easy thing to do, we had alternatives to SC2 already. Even though they've gone overboard with their attempts to attract the masses through adjusting gameplay mechanics, at least in my opinion, point still stands and it'd be lovely if everyone understood that.
I agree with both of you.
Even SC2 in its current state still get complaints (from people that don't really play that game that is) that "it's the same as BW, just with better graphics, therefore I am not buying it or I don't like it".
People like "innovation" except at least with BW, BW was already a great game. It was innovative when it came out (one of the first RTS to have 3 vastly different races) and it was almost nearly balanced when it came out (only needing like 3-4 balance patches after BW came out). Blizzard said it themselves, BW became an amazing eSport (with fancy mechanics) and it was nearly balanced unintentionally (it was an accident, they never intended or imagined BW to be played competitively for money for years).
So the old saying goes, don't fix what isn't broken.
Anyway, on to new stuff that SC2 has that got me hyped (it worked) - They definitely probably got other people into the game with fancy stuff like protoss warp ins, the colossus (it can WALK UP RAMPS AND CLIFFS), and nydus worms. (Seriously, the SC2 presentation video which featured the colossus, warp ins, and nydus worm got me hyped for the game, so Blizzard did a good job with that.)
Though, they could have kept those (to some extent) and added other fancy stuff but kept the game similar to BW.
One of the main complaints of SC2 is the pathing and how it leads to unit clump + how there are lots of boring units like the colossus. They definitely could have mimiced BW as much as possible while still adding and/or replacing old units with new units.
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On November 15 2012 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. Terran can easily go 3 base BC, if BC was any good and if you get a PF at the 3rd. It follows the same theory of going with the carn build of thor/hellion.
Do you have any examples of this working at a high level tournament? I am not sure you can have enough defense to hold off the zerg before enough BCs get out. Especially if you have a PF at the 3rd.
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On November 15 2012 12:37 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 18:38 JohnMadden wrote:On November 14 2012 18:19 [F_]aths wrote:On November 13 2012 19:43 bokeevboke wrote:
Developers might be qualified, but the leader always decides how things gonna be. Considering that sc2 lead designer is from C&C and BfME -esque rts games no wonder that starcraft 2 isn't what we wanted it to be. At least for majority of us. There is a difference ib what we wanted SC2 to be – and what needed it to be. Because it makes it simple, lets exaggerate a bit and assume SC2 would have been essentially BW in 3D with widescreen support and some changed / new news. Let's say, SC2 would have copied the quirks in the unit control (sometimes you need to use hold position, sometimes you need the patrol command for maximum effect.) The guys who were interested in BW would probably have loved the game. But how big would SC2 have been? Would it have justified 6+ years of development? To support a game, the developer needs to make money. To make money, they need to attract the masses. To keep the masses, they also need to attract hardcore players and professional players. If this would be an easy thing to do, we had alternatives to SC2 already. Even though they've gone overboard with their attempts to attract the masses through adjusting gameplay mechanics, at least in my opinion, point still stands and it'd be lovely if everyone understood that. I agree with both of you. Even SC2 in its current state still get complaints (from people that don't really play that game that is) that "it's the same as BW, just with better graphics, therefore I am not buying it or I don't like it". People like "innovation" except at least with BW, BW was already a great game. It was innovative when it came out (one of the first RTS to have 3 vastly different races) and it was almost nearly balanced when it came out (only needing like 3-4 balance patches after BW came out). Blizzard said it themselves, BW became an amazing eSport (with fancy mechanics) and it was nearly balanced unintentionally (it was an accident, they never intended or imagined BW to be played competitively for money for years). So the old saying goes, don't fix what isn't broken. Anyway, on to new stuff that SC2 has that got me hyped (it worked) - They definitely probably got other people into the game with fancy stuff like protoss warp ins, the colossus (it can WALK UP RAMPS AND CLIFFS), and nydus worms. (Seriously, the SC2 presentation video which featured the colossus, warp ins, and nydus worm got me hyped for the game, so Blizzard did a good job with that.) Though, they could have kept those (to some extent) and added other fancy stuff but kept the game similar to BW. One of the main complaints of SC2 is the pathing and how it leads to unit clump + how there are lots of boring units like the colossus. They definitely could have mimiced BW as much as possible while still adding and/or replacing old units with new units.
Except of course pathing in BW is completely broken. Take the dragoon for example. That unit pissed me off even when I was playing campaign. Of course, SC2 path can use a tweak to scatter things more, but to say BW is perfect on that is just...... Then, there's the 150 spawning pool and the 4 pool fest, or so I heard.
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On November 15 2012 12:39 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. Terran can easily go 3 base BC, if BC was any good and if you get a PF at the 3rd. It follows the same theory of going with the carn build of thor/hellion. Do you have any examples of this working at a high level tournament? I am not sure you can have enough defense to hold off the zerg before enough BCs get out. Especially if you have a PF at the 3rd.
Marines, walls, bunkers, a few tanks, turrets if muta and a PF will hold anything long enough to get BC's out. The problem, as already stated, is that BC's suck.
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I don't like the idea of a projectile fungal, though it does allow a stalker army to blink away before it hits, that being the only method of avoidance.
Fungal should do damage, but slow the units affected. It should not slow Massive units at all.
As for Neural, it should not affect units with supply of 6 or higher, OR the special abilities of the unit Neuraled cannot be cast by the infestor controlling it.
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On November 15 2012 12:01 mishimaBeef wrote:*about to do routine* "shit... i forgot the name of this place..." "better jazz it up and just say home" *does routine* "yeahhhhhhhh"
This was in Miami where he was born and played football in college on the national championship team.
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On November 15 2012 12:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:39 vthree wrote:On November 15 2012 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. Terran can easily go 3 base BC, if BC was any good and if you get a PF at the 3rd. It follows the same theory of going with the carn build of thor/hellion. Do you have any examples of this working at a high level tournament? I am not sure you can have enough defense to hold off the zerg before enough BCs get out. Especially if you have a PF at the 3rd. Marines, walls, bunkers, a few tanks, turrets if muta and a PF will hold anything long enough to get BC's out. The problem, as already stated, is that BC's suck.
BC's suck, as well as the zerg sees you turtling hardcore and can mass expo and send in changelings/overlords/whatever to see what you're going and outmacro you
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On November 15 2012 05:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 05:01 Teoita wrote:On November 15 2012 04:58 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:23 SupLilSon wrote:On November 15 2012 04:11 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. If you think zerg can support broodlords on 3 bases; you don't understand how zerg works. I've seen Leenock do it. In GSL. Code S. I really don't think you understand Zerg or SC2. GG I'm pretty sure you referring to a game where leenock had a 4th base mining just gas...Also, if your going to say "leenock did X, Y and Z", point out the game in which you are referring to, otherwise you just sound like you're spouting nonsense. No, against HerO he was confined on 3 bases, not mining anything at all from the extra hatches he built because they were destroyed immediately. Zerg can't really afford to trade (or lose any unit) on 3 bases, but he can mass up the deathball just fine. It's happened in code S. I was referring to the game between Leenock and Taeja on Antiga from RO8 last season. I understand 3 base Zerg with Hive tech is not sustainable but it's quite possible. It's not ideal but it can be done, and Leenock used queens to boost the cost efficiency of his army and made it work. 3 base Zerg is just as viable as 3 base Terran nowadays.
You just said hive tech on 3 bases as zerg is not sustainable...yet say its viable as 3base terran? =/??
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On November 15 2012 12:56 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2012 12:39 vthree wrote:On November 15 2012 12:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. Terran can easily go 3 base BC, if BC was any good and if you get a PF at the 3rd. It follows the same theory of going with the carn build of thor/hellion. Do you have any examples of this working at a high level tournament? I am not sure you can have enough defense to hold off the zerg before enough BCs get out. Especially if you have a PF at the 3rd. Marines, walls, bunkers, a few tanks, turrets if muta and a PF will hold anything long enough to get BC's out. The problem, as already stated, is that BC's suck. BC's suck, as well as the zerg sees you turtling hardcore and can mass expo and send in changelings/overlords/whatever to see what you're going and outmacro you
I am just countering the point that terran is unable to do what zerg does with BL's. It is entirely feasible to do the same thing, it just isnt as good.
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On November 15 2012 05:36 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 04:11 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. If you think zerg can support broodlords on 3 bases; you don't understand how zerg works. Go watch HerO vs. Leenock from last season of GSL and tell me you can't go broodlord infestor off 3 bases and crush protoss.
It is not as simple as "3 base can't support broodlord infestor/or not" There are more factors, how early the gas is being mined, how long the gas heavy units are alive so you don't have to make them again. But I don't think leenock is able to consistently produce broodlords and infestors. The gas just won't be enough. He was really cost efficient with them.
btw, this thread is getting derailed.
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On November 15 2012 13:02 Sc2Null wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 05:15 SupLilSon wrote:On November 15 2012 05:01 Teoita wrote:On November 15 2012 04:58 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:23 SupLilSon wrote:On November 15 2012 04:11 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. If you think zerg can support broodlords on 3 bases; you don't understand how zerg works. I've seen Leenock do it. In GSL. Code S. I really don't think you understand Zerg or SC2. GG I'm pretty sure you referring to a game where leenock had a 4th base mining just gas...Also, if your going to say "leenock did X, Y and Z", point out the game in which you are referring to, otherwise you just sound like you're spouting nonsense. No, against HerO he was confined on 3 bases, not mining anything at all from the extra hatches he built because they were destroyed immediately. Zerg can't really afford to trade (or lose any unit) on 3 bases, but he can mass up the deathball just fine. It's happened in code S. I was referring to the game between Leenock and Taeja on Antiga from RO8 last season. I understand 3 base Zerg with Hive tech is not sustainable but it's quite possible. It's not ideal but it can be done, and Leenock used queens to boost the cost efficiency of his army and made it work. 3 base Zerg is just as viable as 3 base Terran nowadays. You just said hive tech on 3 bases as zerg is not sustainable...yet say its viable as 3base terran? =/??
Yea, as going 3 base tier 3 tech with Terran isnt sustainable over a period of time. There are multiple, clear examples of Zerg getting their Hive tech off of 3 bases, I don't understand what you're still arguing here.
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On November 15 2012 12:01 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:56 ZackAttack wrote:On November 15 2012 02:26 MrJoKer wrote:
Finally the Rock as come back to Blizzard's Forums ! + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8PZTviQHqs&feature=related *about to do routine* "shit... i forgot the name of this place..." "better jazz it up and just say home" *does routine* "yeahhhhhhhh"
Lol, wp wp
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On November 15 2012 14:17 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:02 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 05:15 SupLilSon wrote:On November 15 2012 05:01 Teoita wrote:On November 15 2012 04:58 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:23 SupLilSon wrote:On November 15 2012 04:11 Sc2Null wrote:On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. If you think zerg can support broodlords on 3 bases; you don't understand how zerg works. I've seen Leenock do it. In GSL. Code S. I really don't think you understand Zerg or SC2. GG I'm pretty sure you referring to a game where leenock had a 4th base mining just gas...Also, if your going to say "leenock did X, Y and Z", point out the game in which you are referring to, otherwise you just sound like you're spouting nonsense. No, against HerO he was confined on 3 bases, not mining anything at all from the extra hatches he built because they were destroyed immediately. Zerg can't really afford to trade (or lose any unit) on 3 bases, but he can mass up the deathball just fine. It's happened in code S. I was referring to the game between Leenock and Taeja on Antiga from RO8 last season. I understand 3 base Zerg with Hive tech is not sustainable but it's quite possible. It's not ideal but it can be done, and Leenock used queens to boost the cost efficiency of his army and made it work. 3 base Zerg is just as viable as 3 base Terran nowadays. You just said hive tech on 3 bases as zerg is not sustainable...yet say its viable as 3base terran? =/?? Yea, as going 3 base tier 3 tech with Terran isnt sustainable over a period of time. There are multiple, clear examples of Zerg getting their Hive tech off of 3 bases, I don't understand what you're still arguing here.
Its only because infestors are too strong and zerg can fight with infestors zerglings only.
Whereas terran cant fight with marines medivac only.
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Would you guys go for the old fungal? Which was longer duration but the same damage?
The reason being is that marines can survive as longer damage duration would lead to medivacs being able to heal a bit more so marines don't get too toasted, and the same goes for protoss shield regen. Would be interesting to see how old festors play in the modern game
They gave us a taste of the festor, but maybe the old fungal was a bit more balanced? The projectile thing looked good, but played pretty poorly when they did the PTR, but I would like to see things added which will increase the skill cap a little. Making festors a little smaller so EMP is more effective would be good too.
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On November 15 2012 17:06 OptimusYale wrote:
Would you guys go for the old fungal? Which was longer duration but the same damage?
The reason being is that marines can survive as longer damage duration would lead to medivacs being able to heal a bit more so marines don't get too toasted, and the same goes for protoss shield regen. Would be interesting to see how old festors play in the modern game
They gave us a taste of the festor, but maybe the old fungal was a bit more balanced? The projectile thing looked good, but played pretty poorly when they did the PTR, but I would like to see things added which will increase the skill cap a little. Making festors a little smaller so EMP is more effective would be good too.
That would still immobalize your units, but for 8 seconds now! I think the stun is what most people hate about the infestor
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On November 15 2012 17:06 OptimusYale wrote:
Would you guys go for the old fungal? Which was longer duration but the same damage?
The reason being is that marines can survive as longer damage duration would lead to medivacs being able to heal a bit more so marines don't get too toasted, and the same goes for protoss shield regen. Would be interesting to see how old festors play in the modern game
They gave us a taste of the festor, but maybe the old fungal was a bit more balanced? The projectile thing looked good, but played pretty poorly when they did the PTR, but I would like to see things added which will increase the skill cap a little. Making festors a little smaller so EMP is more effective would be good too.
The old fungal has way less dps. When I use fungal as ranged splash damage during a combat - it's current main role - it will be less potent by far.
This mostly hurts fungals use as "glasscanon" in combination with every unit that gets hit during a combat, while probably even buffing Infestor/Broodlord compositions, which don't get hit anyways but now the opponent can't move for another 4seconds while the Broodlords destroy them.
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To be honest, perhaps removing the damage Fungal does and just leave the immobilization active.
This way, it allows you to utilize that feature, but will have to use it in conjunction with other units.
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On November 15 2012 04:11 Sc2Null wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 04:02 SupLilSon wrote:
So how does the fact that Zerg can get Broodlords off 3 base or do any type of aggression off 3 base fit into IdrA's post? It's not like Terran can just forgo all forms of defense and just rush to straight BCs (as if that was a legitimate army anyways)
Terran does not have an infestor like unit that can do everything. If you think zerg can support broodlords on 3 bases; you don't understand how zerg works.
LOOOL....
You really need to watch SC2....
Edit: 3 base BC?? Looooooool
Maybe in silver league?
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I have to agree, Mass infestors with infested marines spam is a bit much in certain situations.
If the Zerg manages to get into a good spot where the Protoss can't pull back and wait out for the infested Terrans to die off then Protoss is basically dead. This is particularly dangerous if Zerg starts attacking a mining base of protoss. If protoss pulls back then the expansion will be dead long before the infested Terrans actually despawns.
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I would love it if fungal was a projectile - that would add a lot more tension in games, so exciting!
but make it more like an arc, the straight line is boring and looks stupid when it passes through units.
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EPT
