On November 12 2012 16:53 xAdra wrote: Ugh you zergs. Ballistic, I thank you for replying to my post level-headedly, even if I don't agree with your points. Splitting marines takes far more effort to do than a moving banelings or fungal. The protoss deathball has not worked since the beginning of 2012; not since Stephano invented the much maligned 13 minute roach remax. Protoss is now a plethora of coin flippy allins.
What has 12 min roach ling max to do with any protoss deathball? The 12min roach ling max is just good against fast third bases and can now be hold with a fast third base and immortal sentry.
Imho nerfing the infestor gives us some problems: - Can Zerg still beat the colossi voidray ball? (Even if it is not used at the moment, it could come back) - Can Zerg hold late sentry immortal allins? - Can Zerg go anything else than Muta in ZvZ? - Can Zerg still hold lategame terran armies?
There are probably some more problems but especially the ZvZ one probably prevents the fungal=missle as Mutas are one of the fastest units in the game.
I feel that making larger (massive?) units less affected by fungal would be a first thing, perhaps a 50% slowdown instead. It would make carriers more useful in late PvZ at least.. I dont mind either projectile on fungal, smaller IT range or more visible burrow movement. But if they add all three changes (or even two) at the same time I think they might be overdoing it. Slightly more visible burrow movement and projectile for fungal seems a good middle road to take.
On November 12 2012 19:20 TeveT wrote: I feel that making larger (massive?) units less affected by fungal would be a first thing, perhaps a 50% slowdown instead. It would make carriers more useful in late PvZ at least.. I dont mind either projectile on fungal, smaller IT range or more visible burrow movement. But if they add all three changes (or even two) at the same time I think they might be overdoing it. Slightly more visible burrow movement and projectile for fungal seems a good middle road to take.
That is not enough. Fungal should have no root effect as well and infestor size should be smaller, so they take more splash dmg. With the last 5 major tournaments taken by zerg, no amount of nerf would be overdoing it.
On November 12 2012 19:20 TeveT wrote: I feel that making larger (massive?) units less affected by fungal would be a first thing, perhaps a 50% slowdown instead. It would make carriers more useful in late PvZ at least.. I dont mind either projectile on fungal, smaller IT range or more visible burrow movement. But if they add all three changes (or even two) at the same time I think they might be overdoing it. Slightly more visible burrow movement and projectile for fungal seems a good middle road to take.
That is not enough. Fungal should have no root effect as well and infestor size should be smaller, so they take more splash dmg. With the last 5 major tournaments taken by zerg, no amount of nerf would be overdoing it.
Last 5 major tournaments taken by zerg? Am i missing a couple or something? If we look at liquipedia we got the last 5 tournaments 2 zerg, 2 protoss and 1 terran.
On November 12 2012 18:49 Csong wrote: If infestors gets nerfed protoss is going to dominate both zerg and terran.
Unless blizzard decides to be smart (and awesome) and nerf infestor but buff zerg in other areas to compensate, so that zerg doesn't HAVE to go infestors to win games.
I feel this tale "without infestors Zerg can't win" need to be changed.."without infestors Zerg can't steal" seems fair enough.
On November 12 2012 16:53 xAdra wrote: Ugh you zergs. Ballistic, I thank you for replying to my post level-headedly, even if I don't agree with your points. Splitting marines takes far more effort to do than a moving banelings or fungal. The protoss deathball has not worked since the beginning of 2012; not since Stephano invented the much maligned 13 minute roach remax. Protoss is now a plethora of coin flippy allins.
What has 12 min roach ling max to do with any protoss deathball? The 12min roach ling max is just good against fast third bases and can now be hold with a fast third base and immortal sentry.
Imho nerfing the infestor gives us some problems: - Can Zerg still beat the colossi voidray ball? (Even if it is not used at the moment, it could come back) - Can Zerg hold late sentry immortal allins? - Can Zerg go anything else than Muta in ZvZ? - Can Zerg still hold lategame terran armies?
There are probably some more problems but especially the ZvZ one probably prevents the fungal=missle as Mutas are one of the fastest units in the game.
can they go anything other than muta?
Once I saw your tag at the bottom it all made sense tho
On November 12 2012 16:53 xAdra wrote: Ugh you zergs. Ballistic, I thank you for replying to my post level-headedly, even if I don't agree with your points. Splitting marines takes far more effort to do than a moving banelings or fungal. The protoss deathball has not worked since the beginning of 2012; not since Stephano invented the much maligned 13 minute roach remax. Protoss is now a plethora of coin flippy allins.
What has 12 min roach ling max to do with any protoss deathball? The 12min roach ling max is just good against fast third bases and can now be hold with a fast third base and immortal sentry.
Imho nerfing the infestor gives us some problems: - Can Zerg still beat the colossi voidray ball? (Even if it is not used at the moment, it could come back) - Can Zerg hold late sentry immortal allins? - Can Zerg go anything else than Muta in ZvZ? - Can Zerg still hold lategame terran armies?
There are probably some more problems but especially the ZvZ one probably prevents the fungal=missle as Mutas are one of the fastest units in the game.
can they go anything other than muta?
The problem is that Mutas can run around Queens, static defense and Hydras without Infestor support. If you, for example make Fungal a Missle, Mutas can just evade it without losing much. This means that both Zerg go Muta Ling until one of them thinks his flock of Mutas is larger and attacks. The problem with this is the following: Just imagine you had to fight Viking vs Viking battles but with still Viking Flowers intact. It is very, very difficult to guess how many Mutas are in a flock.
Of course, there could be some cyclic countering going on (perhaps fast roach hydra 2 base attack) but that doesn't really improve the matchup.
And for the god sake, zergs aren't forced to get 30 infestors to win, they've played decently for 1 year before a stupid patch brought to you this op unit, the entire zerg metagame is a huge abuse to reach bl/infestor because is nearly unstoppable..
Yes, the played decently... if losing to toss Deathballs is what you call decent.
Just compare the way in which Ravens and Infestors have to be used. Ravens need to "get close" (and usually die) when using their abilities while Infestors are pretty safe with their super long casting range and even burrowed movement and the ability to cast their cheapest spell while burrowed. Added to this comes the "lockdown" of Fungal Growth and you basically have a terribly designed unit which can be very imbalancing in the game.
IMO the whole "free unit spawning" is a terrible idea. Sure it provides more "swarmyness", but it also gives the swarm race a superiority of numbers (no other race can get more than 200 food either) which is NOT made up for by the toughness of the units of the other two races. So Zerg needs to be toned down a lot to make the game more interesting.
And for the god sake, zergs aren't forced to get 30 infestors to win, they've played decently for 1 year before a stupid patch brought to you this op unit, the entire zerg metagame is a huge abuse to reach bl/infestor because is nearly unstoppable..
Yes, the played decently... if losing to toss Deathballs is what you call decent.
Then those deathballs are what need to be fixed ... instead of being replaced by another terribly overpowered concept. Just look around and you see complaints about "the deathball" as well, but sadly too many dumb people think that "ball" is the important part of that term and thus only limit their thinking to Terran bio-ball and Protoss deathballs. Its the absurd concentration of infantry units which is so terrible and the movement mechanics (plus the unlimited unit selection), but too many people dont understand that "less is more". The Infested Terrans can be cast in a super tight clump and much tighter than the comparable autoturret for instance. Thus the dps of the IT clump is MUCH higher than that of any autoturrets.
And for the god sake, zergs aren't forced to get 30 infestors to win, they've played decently for 1 year before a stupid patch brought to you this op unit, the entire zerg metagame is a huge abuse to reach bl/infestor because is nearly unstoppable..
Yes, the played decently... if losing to toss Deathballs is what you call decent.
The metagame was 3 base roach hydra corruptor against 3 base Stalker Sentry Colossi Void-Ray, no infestors (pre-buff) and no broodlord because they was "waste of resources" lol. And PvZ wasn't toss favoured at least not when zergs don't ragequit in face of fake void-rays , I'm sorry buddy the composition was just terrible. We're not removing infestors, just making a support spellcaster what it is supposed to be and not a fucking core unit that auto-win the game.
The reason why you did not go Broodlords was simple: You cant tech to them (you are dead long before) and you cant protect them with just roaches. It was not toss favored? Really? Get your facts straight. Toss won almost every game on 3 Bases. It was a common saying "Dont ever let toss get a 3rd base!". The best advise toss had to zerg? "Dont let us get a deathball" So please put your "facts" straight. The "terrible unit compostion" ist just terrible because your terrible colossi obliterated any ground army zerg could muster, so zerg was forced into an even more terrible unit just to kill colossi... and with 20 - 30 Supply in useless corruptors you just die to the Blinkstalker reinforcements. The infestor is a bandaid, admittedly a terrible one, but nonetheless a bandaid because most other zerg units just plain suck.
ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer And why exactly in the late game wouldnt the zerg have 10 of this unit called 'overseer' above his army?
But what you are saying is that zerg should autowin against terran, because zerg had higher tier army, the terran higher tier army isnt particulary great, so since zerg has higher tier they should win. Good to know.
But since you are obviously such a great player who can tell us we should just learn to play, why dont you upload a replay how it went for you?
More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once
They dont need to be, a single infestor shuts down drops in a base completely.
Zerg wouldn't like to make 10 overseers because the gas is needed for more important things. Like more broodlords, infestors and air upgrades later on. Hey, but its not a very bad idea since it takes no supply. But at that point in the game, gas is really precious. May I ask, maybe you are not master's level? Sorry, not league bashing, because 10 overseers is 500 gas. I can't afford that. Because if not, from this point on, I won't be making any sense to you.
And what are you saying a single infestor shuts down drops in a base completely? Are you sure? You are doing a drop not for the sake of just doing damage. You do it because you make your opponent busy, so you can do something else (like expanding or buying time to get your army in a good position). If you drop for the sake of just killing some drones and killing a building, then the infestor can surely get it with a fungal and IT. In all other cases (infestor out of position, defending front), You can do the drop.
I'm not saying that zerg should autowin against terran. But when you are still producing marine/tank/medivac in the 20 minute mark, you don't expect to win a frontal assault battle, this is the highest tech of zerg we are talking about. You can't afford not to do something. sorry for the long reply though.
I would like fungal not to completely snare but rather slow, it would make it possible to retreat from chain fungals. But lucky ms core already brings ability to retreat for protoss in HOTS.
I would also like to see a change to broodlord to that 3 unupgraded broodlords can force a maxxed terran to flee for his life, possibly ad so that your marines can kill the broodlings before they reach the army
I think making fungal a projectile is the best choice here. Decreasing radius or range is just boring and by making it a projectile might also be best for the spectator, when players show perfect marinesplits to dodge or when infestors set up a trap etc.
On November 12 2012 20:36 Flummie wrote: I think making fungal a projectile is the best choice here. Decreasing radius or range is just boring and by making it a projectile might also be best for the spectator, when players show perfect marinesplits to dodge or when infestors set up a trap etc.
Why is decreasing the range "boring"? You can have the excitement of "will the Infestor life to fungal or die before it can do it?" just like for the Raven, because the only "counter" to a lockdown is "kill the caster before it can cast". Spreading out units does NOT count as a counter, because you are decreasing your own dps that way AND the movement mechanics of SC2 specifically clump all your units together.
On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote: As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle.
1) When there are broodlords, the ghosts will be blocked by the broodlings. 2) EMP radius is sick small. Even if the zerg clumps up 15 infestors, you will only be able to emp a few, and you need 2 emps to drain all energy. Also: it's a mistake by the zerg to clump his infestors up, not a good move by the terran.
All we need is that the infestor to have a smaller impact on the game. That can be achieved with some of the suggested fixes. Only some zergs foresee the apocalypse because of that lol.
Just like terrans could not get over the EMP nerf that was obviously imba now zergs can't comprehend that the infestor infests this game.
On November 12 2012 20:27 Charon1979 wrote: The reason why you did not go Broodlords was simple: You cant tech to them (you are dead long before) and you cant protect them with just roaches. It was not toss favored? Really? Get your facts straight. Toss won almost every game on 3 Bases. It was a common saying "Dont ever let toss get a 3rd base!". The best advise toss had to zerg? "Dont let us get a deathball" So please put your "facts" straight. The "terrible unit compostion" ist just terrible because your terrible colossi obliterated any ground army zerg could muster, so zerg was forced into an even more terrible unit just to kill colossi... and with 20 - 30 Supply in useless corruptors you just die to the Blinkstalker reinforcements. The infestor is a bandaid, admittedly a terrible one, but nonetheless a bandaid because most other zerg units just plain suck.
You both right. If infestor was buffed to help deal with protoss deathballs and then it caused the metagame to change into the "rush to hive, get bl/inf, attak" style. Then both infestor and protoss deathball should be nerfed.
So far it seems Blizz has no idea what the fuck to do with deathball, so infestor will stay as it is. Maybe they nerf the IT or Fungal to air, cant imagine anything else before HoTS.
On November 12 2012 20:50 ceaRshaf wrote: All we need is that the infestor to have a smaller impact on the game. That can be achieved with some of the suggested fixes. Only some zergs foresee the apocalypse because of that lol.
Just like terrans could not get over the EMP nerf that was obviously imba now zergs can't comprehend that the infestor infests this game.
The ghost has way less of an impact and usage even before the EMP. Zerg needs infestor's in current state or something else need to be buffed (Hydra's please) or they will simply die midgame unless they go muta's every single game in the hope to delay the opponent to get broodlords up.
I find it funny that Z players are complaining that deathballs will become prominent when before Protoss were taking late as hell thirds (12/13 minute thirds) while constantly turtling, delaying their deathball forever. There were plenty of examples where I could have pointed out as to why a Z lost a certain match back then, and most of it was because Z players were not playing aggressive enough.
People for example were complaining that Idra losing to Cruncher was some big deal, when Idra clearly fucked up on Shakuras by attacking into some of the most idiotic positions ever. He never contested Cruncher's 3rd for example that he could have easily stopped, and never attempted to try anything different then standard max out Roach/Corrupter.
For example, if Idra didn't expend so much gas on stupid shit like Hydras he could have easily had air upgrades + Infestors (and back then Infestors were just fine, IT is just as good as it is now and FG was still a root). He didn't max out early on Roaches to deny the third despite the fact that Cruncher was playing a really risky build, and he didn't even Roach drop into Cruncher's main which would have severely hurt him big time. The complaint that "deathballs" would come back is just nonsense.
EPT
