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On November 12 2012 18:22 Discarder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:39 xAdra wrote:On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle. How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays. As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers. ok, the context is super late game with lategame zerg with infestor versus midgame terran with complete upgrades. ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer. Now that is something you can do. You can't afford to lose ghosts yes, as zerg players can't afford to lose infestors. More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once. You should take advantage of this. People like you are always assuming the outcome of a game is all big front battles. Remember, a broodlord army, is a higher tier army than your marine-tank-medivac-marauder. You can't expect to win a face to face fight if you have this kind of army. You should be threatening his economy and his tech. Its easy to say, just learn to play!! Think! But that would give me a ban/warning so. There it is.
I don't think it is as easy as you say.
1. Every good zerg has an overseer with their army. So cloaked ghost raids are shut down hard.
2. Yes, the main bulk of infestor/broodlord cannot be everywhere at once. But centrally placed, it does not take long for them to reach an outpost of your territory. Add in the fact that zerg sees an incoming attack before it arrives due to the creep and that you can stall the attack with one infestor and you see why some people are afraid to engage the zerg (assuming the army is centrally positioned). Should you be able to catch the army out of position and force some weird type of elimination race, there is the problem that the zerg army is incredibly cost efficient.
The points in 2. is why I believe protoss never try to run around the zerg army in the late game and try to get a money vortex. Even though it might not be successful very often, the odds are still higher.
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On November 12 2012 21:03 superstartran wrote:
I find it funny that Z players are complaining that deathballs will become prominent when before Protoss were taking late as hell thirds (12/13 minute thirds) while constantly turtling, delaying their deathball forever. There were plenty of examples where I could have pointed out as to why a Z lost a certain match back then, and most of it was because Z players were not playing aggressive enough.
People for example were complaining that Idra losing to Cruncher was some big deal, when Idra clearly fucked up on Shakuras by attacking into some of the most idiotic positions ever. He never contested Cruncher's 3rd for example that he could have easily stopped, and never attempted to try anything different then standard max out Roach/Corrupter.
haha, what?
Your example is a bunch of foreigners?
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Northern Ireland27415 Posts
On November 12 2012 21:06 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 18:22 Discarder wrote:On November 12 2012 17:39 xAdra wrote:On November 12 2012 17:33 GeorgeForeman wrote:
As long as Terrans continue to refuse to made ANY ghosts, even in max-army situations with both players sitting on large banks, I refuse to get too worked up about a need to nerf infesters to "fix" TvZ. There are so many matches I see where the Terran would stand a far better chance of winning if they'd just build 5 ghosts. it requires extra micro to keep them at the back, but EMPing a clump of infestors can change the course of a battle. How do you emp when you're supposed to keep them at the back? Also, one emp hits how many infestors? Also, if your ghosts die, now what? GG right? If you're such a genius, do try it, post some replays. As I read from another post somewhere on TL, this ghost thing has been asked far too many times without listening to the answers. ok, the context is super late game with lategame zerg with infestor versus midgame terran with complete upgrades. ghosts also have this ability named "cloak. You can sneak to the infestor line to throw down those EMPs. You are also free to scan to check if an overseer. Now that is something you can do. You can't afford to lose ghosts yes, as zerg players can't afford to lose infestors. More importantly, infestor rich armies can't be anywhere at once. You should take advantage of this. People like you are always assuming the outcome of a game is all big front battles. Remember, a broodlord army, is a higher tier army than your marine-tank-medivac-marauder. You can't expect to win a face to face fight if you have this kind of army. You should be threatening his economy and his tech. Its easy to say, just learn to play!! Think! But that would give me a ban/warning so. There it is. I don't think it is as easy as you say. 1. Every good zerg has an overseer with their army. So cloaked ghost raids are shut down hard. 2. Yes, the main bulk of infestor/broodlord cannot be everywhere at once. But centrally placed, it does not take long for them to reach an outpost of your territory. Add in the fact that zerg sees an incoming attack before it arrives due to the creep and that you can stall the attack with one infestor and you see why some people are afraid to engage the zerg (assuming the army is centrally positioned). Should you be able to catch the army out of position and force some weird type of elimination race, there is the problem that the zerg army is incredibly cost efficient. The points in 2. is why I believe protoss never try to run around the zerg army in the late game and try to get a money vortex. Even though it might not be successful very often, the odds are still higher.
It's quite map dependent as well, maps with a lot of ledges on them make it harder to apply that approach. The Broods can slowly advance across the map and be safe from blinks and whatnot. Daybreak is a really clear example of this, there are tons of dead-spaces that the Broods can chill over that makes them really difficult to ever engage. They'll advance slowly yes, but eventually they'll get to your bases and your production and you have to engage them eventually.
The one thing I miss about Shattered Temple is that in PvZ it was one of the absolute best maps I've played in terms of skirting around a BL/Infestor ball. It had a really open middle ground, and you could blink up and around the ledges to the other bases with stalkers and the likes.
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On November 12 2012 10:26 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 10:22 Bibbit wrote:On November 12 2012 10:19 Tsuki.eu wrote:
Fungal projectile is a useless nerf, we dont need fungal to be harder to use. We need fungal to be less good vs everything (and IT also)...
The idea is that would be less good vs everything, because you could actually micro against it. For a pro player, projectile change wont matter much, after being used to it. (its not enough)
^-----------------------------------
User was warned for this post
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Funny stuff :D ... well another Terran (Ryung) shows the EU/NA Balance whinys how you should play terran 
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well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/
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On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/
sure it does... nerf the Infestor and this gonna be how every zerg gonna die 
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On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/
Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top.
if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do.
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Italy12248 Posts
Since people bitch about colossus/void ray, i'd like to point out that Z would rape it today without infestors.
Both roach max (hello mondragon!) and roach into muta would destroy that build horribly.
In modern play, you just can't tech that much while taking a third, nor can you delay your third base for that long. Today, protoss starts teching as late as 11 minutes, so his composition will not be void ray/colossus heavy when he maxes out anyway. Back in the day 5+ colossi was common, now you see 3-4 with the first P max (in standard games).
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On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do.
nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^
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On November 12 2012 22:41 foxj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do. nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^
Oh i agree Ryung played better today.
But the problem with balancing is when you got a micro element (like lets say marines or sentries) and you compare a pro vs pro match to a less skilled match, you will notice ofc that the pro can simply do more with his units.
So when you try to balance it for everyone you only make it arguably worse on the top lvl.
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On November 12 2012 22:41 foxj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do. nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^ How do you compare ryung's skill to drg's directly when they never play the same race? Combining that with balance would be running in circles.
One way to compare is to let ryung play zerg for a significant number of games, compare the winrates of drg and ryung and then the other way around. But no one will ever do that. Besides, suppose the races are equal (hypothetical situation), but stylistically different. Suppose drg is a very all round player (he will learn all styles very quickly) but ryung is not (he learns only 1 style very quickly). In case of equally balanced races, the favor will always go to drg in my test. the difference between imbalance and stylistic difference cannot be seen.
I'm not refuting your point, because i agree. But comparing 2 players' skill without them playing the same race (or even the same style) is not a good measure for balance. The statement 'balance should be fair between 2 players who has the same skill ceiling' is meaningless in an actual balance discussion. It can't be measured.
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On November 12 2012 02:23 wangstra wrote:
Personally I'm no longer interested or invested into what happens to infestors (or balance in general). What I do know is Blizzard has dug themselves into a hole.
They have not been consistent in the way they balance and their comments on infestors in particular have caused a lot of consternation. This reminds me of situation in WoW where for almost a year they refused to touch mage damage despite a lot of community action. When they finally conceded and made the change, it didn't matter. They were ridiculed and had lost respect.
I see the same situation happening here. When they do finally make a change, and rest assured they will, the uproar will be louder than the welcome.
Tbh i kind of agree with this, in WOW they were really ignoring the community in many cases. Than they started listening to the community more in cata but the community already hated them and was full of whine at every move, resulting in a more boring wow, little bit more balanced and with a community just as mad on balance.
This is not the first time people are screaming at them and they aren't reacting, the 1/1/1 situation was exactly the same, it took them about 5 month to say "Oh, ok, you can have +1 range on immortal".
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On November 12 2012 22:58 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:41 foxj wrote:On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do. nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^ How do you compare ryung's skill to drg's directly when they never play the same race? Combining that with balance would be running in circles. One way to compare is to let ryung play zerg for a significant number of games, compare the winrates of drg and ryung and then the other way around. But no one will ever do that. Besides, suppose the races are equal (hypothetical situation), but stylistically different. Suppose drg is a very all round player (he will learn all styles very quickly) but ryung is not (he learns only 1 style very quickly). In case of equally balanced races, the favor will always go to drg in my test. the difference between imbalance and stylistic difference cannot be seen. I'm not refuting your point, because i agree. But comparing 2 players' skill without them playing the same race (or even the same style) is not a good measure for balance. The statement 'balance should be fair between 2 players who has the same skill ceiling' is meaningless in an actual balance discussion. It can't be measured.
haven't u read any interview of those top Koreans ? They always compare the players skill even not the same race, and always said about it whenever talking about balance, i can't quote some but u can check them out.
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On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do.
There is no reason to assume that it couldnt be (reasonably) balanced across different levels. For example make a unit more micro-intensive to use, and it will be a larger nerf to casual players than to pros. So balance for all levels. And of course that isnt always easy, and it also wont always be possible. But you can at least try it.
But even if you were right, should we seriously be balancing the game around ONE player? So fuck every single terran/toss player, because there is ONE terran who can deal with it? And then why take that player as benchmark, and not the ideal player with ideal micro (read: automaton micro). And the day he says: "Fuck this, I go play LOL", we can do balance changes? And until that time you tell every single player to not complain, since if they become as good as one other player managed they will be able to beat infestors.
Just kidding of course, there is no reason to beat infestors as terran, simply 2-rax them all until they complain to blizzard that that should be nerfed. After which we still got the SCV rush. Wonder how long it takes before having 45HP on SCVs compared to 40 on probes/drones is called unfair.
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On November 12 2012 22:58 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:41 foxj wrote:On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do. nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^ How do you compare ryung's skill to drg's directly when they never play the same race? Combining that with balance would be running in circles. One way to compare is to let ryung play zerg for a significant number of games, compare the winrates of drg and ryung and then the other way around. But no one will ever do that. Besides, suppose the races are equal (hypothetical situation), but stylistically different. Suppose drg is a very all round player (he will learn all styles very quickly) but ryung is not (he learns only 1 style very quickly). In case of equally balanced races, the favor will always go to drg in my test. the difference between imbalance and stylistic difference cannot be seen. I'm not refuting your point, because i agree. But comparing 2 players' skill without them playing the same race (or even the same style) is not a good measure for balance. The statement 'balance should be fair between 2 players who has the same skill ceiling' is meaningless in an actual balance discussion. It can't be measured.
When one race can move and spam a single skill with his spell caster, while the other has to split like crazy constantly, stim, focus fire, and other shenanegans, then one race puts more effort into it.
If more effort from one race is used constantly to achieve same result as another, the first race is underpowered and should be buffed, or the second one has to be nerfed so it requires more effort. Simple as that.
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On November 12 2012 23:15 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 22:58 Yorbon wrote:On November 12 2012 22:41 foxj wrote:On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do. nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^ How do you compare ryung's skill to drg's directly when they never play the same race? Combining that with balance would be running in circles. One way to compare is to let ryung play zerg for a significant number of games, compare the winrates of drg and ryung and then the other way around. But no one will ever do that. Besides, suppose the races are equal (hypothetical situation), but stylistically different. Suppose drg is a very all round player (he will learn all styles very quickly) but ryung is not (he learns only 1 style very quickly). In case of equally balanced races, the favor will always go to drg in my test. the difference between imbalance and stylistic difference cannot be seen. I'm not refuting your point, because i agree. But comparing 2 players' skill without them playing the same race (or even the same style) is not a good measure for balance. The statement 'balance should be fair between 2 players who has the same skill ceiling' is meaningless in an actual balance discussion. It can't be measured. When one race can move and spam a single skill with his spell caster, while the other has to split like crazy constantly, stim, focus fire, and other shenanegans, then one race puts more effort into it. If more effort from one race is used constantly to achieve same result as another, the first race is underpowered and should be buffed, or the second one has to be nerfed so it requires more effort. Simple as that.
well, at least the race that amoves and uses a single skill, needs two different units to do so
The most fun part is, that most Terrans and Protoss complain about the Infestor destroying the units that they keep on building en mass, because they are hard to beat without infestors. Well, Infestors beat marines, deal with it. The solution is to stop playing this game Dota-style and start playing it strategy style and use other units. (which I agree, is a late/endgame ZvX problem as well with Infestors; but up to 15mins in the game, Zergs have to use their full arsenal minus hydras, to react to all the stuff Terrans could throw at them)
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On November 12 2012 23:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 23:15 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 12 2012 22:58 Yorbon wrote:On November 12 2012 22:41 foxj wrote:On November 12 2012 22:35 Assirra wrote:On November 12 2012 22:31 foxj wrote:
well said ... but not everyone is top tier Korean Terran like Ryung and balance is not only for even people from bronze to GM but also top korean
edit: oh well Ryung played too well =) but it doesnt have any relation to balance discuss i guess :/ Actually if you want a close to balanced game you have to balance for the top. if you make it so lower terrans would win, imagine what Ryung would do. nah i think it was just because Ryung's skill overall better than Curious and DRG. Balanced the game for the top, but then how many people actually could play Terran ? :/ I mean, balance should be fair between two players who has same skill ceiling. And one more thing, few games can't decide the balance ^_^ How do you compare ryung's skill to drg's directly when they never play the same race? Combining that with balance would be running in circles. One way to compare is to let ryung play zerg for a significant number of games, compare the winrates of drg and ryung and then the other way around. But no one will ever do that. Besides, suppose the races are equal (hypothetical situation), but stylistically different. Suppose drg is a very all round player (he will learn all styles very quickly) but ryung is not (he learns only 1 style very quickly). In case of equally balanced races, the favor will always go to drg in my test. the difference between imbalance and stylistic difference cannot be seen. I'm not refuting your point, because i agree. But comparing 2 players' skill without them playing the same race (or even the same style) is not a good measure for balance. The statement 'balance should be fair between 2 players who has the same skill ceiling' is meaningless in an actual balance discussion. It can't be measured. When one race can move and spam a single skill with his spell caster, while the other has to split like crazy constantly, stim, focus fire, and other shenanegans, then one race puts more effort into it. If more effort from one race is used constantly to achieve same result as another, the first race is underpowered and should be buffed, or the second one has to be nerfed so it requires more effort. Simple as that. well, at least the race that amoves and uses a single skill, needs two different units to do so The most fun part is, that most Terrans and Protoss complain about the Infestor destroying the units that they keep on building en mass, because they are hard to beat without infestors. Well, Infestors beat marines, deal with it. The solution is to stop playing this game Dota-style and start playing it strategy style and use other units. (which I agree, is a late/endgame ZvX problem as well with Infestors; but up to 15mins in the game, Zergs have to use their full arsenal minus hydras, to react to all the stuff Terrans could throw at them)
Infestor counter every tech terran has. Infested terrans destroy tank lines, battlecruisers, hellions and thors. Neural parasite makes playing for big units as thors and battlecruisers not viable. Fungal renders vikings, banshees and every air useless, even raven's seeker missile as fungal has 9 range and costs so much less energy that it is not funny. Infestors can burrow, are big and don't take big splash damage and emp.
The versatility of the infestor is its biggest problem. And don't say derogatory with statements
'start playing it strategy style and use other units', which is very hypocritical since infestor is a non core unit used in EVERY MATCHUP, in every situation. I know you want to defend your race, but community, spectators, commentators, progamers have spoken: infestor is imbalanced.
Marines are a core unit of the terran army, as are lings and zealots for zerg and toss respectively. Why not stop making lings or zlots? Cause they are core units. But you don't see terrans massing ghosts in every matchup, nor you see tosses massing ht's in every matchup. Infestor is useful in every matchup, in every situation. Too useful. Has to be nerfed. Has nothing to do with strategy, micro or anything. It is just too easy to use in every situation, without being difficult in any aspect, while negating fungal and infested terrans requires far more skill than spamming them. Not fair, hence imbalanced.
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While I despise Fungal as a spell independently of the point of view I take, be it design or use or spectator value, I am hoping that they will be more moderate in their approach than they were with snipe and EMP, which were gutted rather than nerfed.
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whether one player beats the other today is not very important. players can play exceptionally well sometimes, and exceptionally bad sometimes (DRG >_>)
you have to examine the game design and see what kind of problems it is causing.
it makes zerg want to turtle to hive tech and other races either have to hit a timing or avoid fighting the infestor/BL altogether. that's not very exciting play. fungal also stops most of the interesting plays a skilled player can pull off. neither is that very exciting.
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EPT
