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On November 13 2012 01:54 Ghanburighan wrote:
Do we really want an infestor nerf now? I'm personally sick of them but it's the timing that's crucial.
HOTS will be out eventually. And there's a very cool new unit there called the swarm host. Despite people disliking it, it's essentially a great unit. It's slow, fragile, but very strong when used well. So, yes, it can destroy you but you can outplay someone using it. This leads to good gameplay (unlike being able to fungal things left and right from 9 range before dumping a billion IT's on top of the remaining army).
So, if the infestor nerf comes now, Blizz will probably water down the nerf and buff something in WoL, but this will probably not lead Blizz to tailor the Z midgame around the swarm host. But I would rather prefer good positional play in the TvZ MU instead of a close simile to what we have now in WoL.
Do you really think it's a good unit? In my opinion it's the wordt unit in the expansion. It's either extremely weak in slow numbers, or extremely strong in large numbers. Fights almost never are close. Either one side gets overwhelmed, or the swarmhosts all get killed and the zerg looses.
Further, this unit almost only works in a deathball. And weren't we trying to get away from that? I mean, the unit almost only works if it's supported by a large blob of other units, usually your entire army. It can do some base harassing with Nydus worms and so, but in general it's very clunky, slow to deploy and has no interesting burst damage.
Maybe some people think locusts versus siege or collosus is fun, but I'm ALREADY bored of it and the game isn't even released.
Something that actually holds a position would be a lot more interesting for Zerg instead of even more free units...
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On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up.
Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it.
One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance.
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On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. .
Yes, the metagame is so awesome right now.
To be honest, i don't care, i hope they really try hard to balance HoTS and get something fun at the same time, not a "statiscally" balanced game.
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Finally some reaction from Blizzard. I hope they will fix that unit soon. Way too strong at the moment.
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On November 13 2012 04:00 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. . Yes, the metagame is so awesome right now. To be honest, i don't care, i hope they really try hard to balance HoTS and get something fun at the same time, not a "statiscally" balanced game.
No one can discuss rationally with you without the presumption they're arguing for the infestor. You'd think some people would be able to shed their bias and look beyond a game with objectivity.
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On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance.
I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushes. Not exactly an innovative bunch. And I remember Idra was complaining to Blizzard at a time where roaches were 1 limit and zerg's metagame against terran was to mass ultralisks with no other units for support. And Blizzard listened, and started nerfing terran and buffing zerg.
We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place.
What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right.
Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily.
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On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily.
Ahahahahah you're upset because blizzard nerfed snipe so fast "based off a single game" (which they absolutely didn't, by the way), so now you want the infestor nerfed in the exact same manner? Are you a child? Think a bit.
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On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushed. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily.
The problem is that you're under the assumption Blizzard owes you for poor balance decisions in the past and should nerf the infestor with no regard for balance in spite of Zergs. And that's why I'm happy Blizzard didn't listen to community whine this time around and allowed the metagame to flesh itself out before acting -- even if it could be wrong. Do Terrans really think Blizzard should continue a precedent for knee-jerk balance patches simply because they're now on the opposing end of a difficult metagame that isn't being immediately nerfed to the ground? The bias is nauseating.
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The infestor is to strong I don't think anyone would doubt that. It is truly a zerg 'catch all' unit.
The issue is every race needs a catch all unit, T has marines, P has stalkers. Z sadly doesn't have that cheaper catch all unit that can be massed to deal with a variety of situations. Instead Z has the infestor which is expensive but harder to lose and works as a catch all unit. The issue is it's tech level and strength are to high for it to be a catch all unit as that makes it to powerful.
The problem is that Zerg became reliant as the infestor as a catch all because the hydra was so bad. The easiest solution that blizzard could of implemented ages ago would of been to fix the hydra's issues and then they could of nerfd the infestor to be the type of support unit it should of been all along.
As it is just trying to balance the infestor will be a nightmare as any nerf could just as easily underpower zerg as leaving it alone overpowers zerg.
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Northern Ireland27065 Posts
On November 13 2012 04:19 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushed. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily. The problem is that you're under the assumption Blizzard owes you for poor balance decisions in the past and should nerf the infestor with no regard for balance in spite of Zergs. And that's why I'm happy Blizzard didn't listen to community whine this time around and allowed the metagame to flesh itself out before acting -- even if it could be wrong. Do Terrans really think Blizzard should continue a precedent for knee-jerk balance patches simply because they're now on the opposing end of a difficult metagame that isn't being immediately nerfed to the ground? The bias is nauseating.
Yeah I'd agree with the sentiment that Blizzard have actually been pretty consistent with their own position for a good while. A lot of the playerbase previously were criticising constant balance changes, wanting them to be a little more hands-off and let things develop organically. Now when Blizzard have employed that approach for months people are wanting them to make wholescale changes.
That said, I do think there are issues with the Zerg race at present, but minor tweaks would be the way forward for me
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On November 13 2012 04:19 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushed. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily. The problem is that you're under the assumption Blizzard owes you for poor balance decisions in the past and should nerf the infestor with no regard for balance in spite of Zergs. And that's why I'm happy Blizzard didn't listen to community whine this time around and allowed the metagame to flesh itself out before acting -- even if it could be wrong. Do Terrans really think Blizzard should continue a precedent for knee-jerk balance patches simply because they're now on the opposing end of a difficult metagame that isn't being immediately nerfed to the ground? The bias is nauseating.
There is no bias in treating everybody equally. Knee-jerk patches or not, terran had been nerfed. I don't see them saying they regret the choices they made, nor even admitting that nerfing terran and buffing zerg and toss was a mistake.
Since they don't want to revert changes and admit their mistakes, the only way we can achieve balance is if they nerf the hell out of zerg.
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On November 13 2012 04:43 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 04:19 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushed. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily. The problem is that you're under the assumption Blizzard owes you for poor balance decisions in the past and should nerf the infestor with no regard for balance in spite of Zergs. And that's why I'm happy Blizzard didn't listen to community whine this time around and allowed the metagame to flesh itself out before acting -- even if it could be wrong. Do Terrans really think Blizzard should continue a precedent for knee-jerk balance patches simply because they're now on the opposing end of a difficult metagame that isn't being immediately nerfed to the ground? The bias is nauseating. There is no bias in treating everybody equally. Knee-jerk patches or not, terran had been nerfed. I don't see them saying they regret the choices they made, nor even admitting that nerfing terran and buffing zerg and toss was a mistake. Since they don't want to revert changes and admit their mistakes, the only way we can achieve balance is if they nerf the hell out of zerg.
They're not going to admit mistakes, they all have PR training. How about you enjoy the new Blizzard balance team instead of being spiteful all the time. They owe you nothing.
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On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushes. Not exactly an innovative bunch. And I remember Idra was complaining to Blizzard at a time where roaches were 1 limit and zerg's metagame against terran was to mass ultralisks with no other units for support. And Blizzard listened, and started nerfing terran and buffing zerg. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily.
Someone is a little bit biased...
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On November 13 2012 04:47 Nortac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushes. Not exactly an innovative bunch. And I remember Idra was complaining to Blizzard at a time where roaches were 1 limit and zerg's metagame against terran was to mass ultralisks with no other units for support. And Blizzard listened, and started nerfing terran and buffing zerg. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily. Someone is a little bit biased...
Again, if treating everybody the same is being biased, then yes, I am biased. Favoring zerg seems what passes for non bias nowadays. I refuse to be a part of that.
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On November 13 2012 04:40 Nerski wrote:
The infestor is to strong I don't think anyone would doubt that. It is truly a zerg 'catch all' unit.
The issue is every race needs a catch all unit, T has marines, P has stalkers. Z sadly doesn't have that cheaper catch all unit that can be massed to deal with a variety of situations. Instead Z has the infestor which is expensive but harder to lose and works as a catch all unit. The issue is it's tech level and strength are to high for it to be a catch all unit as that makes it to powerful.
Zerg doesn't need a "catch-all" when they have mass speedlings, drones, and queens. A myth that seemingly came from nowhere is that the Zerg army is weak when this couldn't be anything further from the truth. Zerg will not fall apart once the Infestor isn't game-breakingly overpowered anymore.
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On November 13 2012 03:17 Grendel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 01:54 Ghanburighan wrote:
Do we really want an infestor nerf now? I'm personally sick of them but it's the timing that's crucial.
HOTS will be out eventually. And there's a very cool new unit there called the swarm host. Despite people disliking it, it's essentially a great unit. It's slow, fragile, but very strong when used well. So, yes, it can destroy you but you can outplay someone using it. This leads to good gameplay (unlike being able to fungal things left and right from 9 range before dumping a billion IT's on top of the remaining army).
So, if the infestor nerf comes now, Blizz will probably water down the nerf and buff something in WoL, but this will probably not lead Blizz to tailor the Z midgame around the swarm host. But I would rather prefer good positional play in the TvZ MU instead of a close simile to what we have now in WoL. Do you really think it's a good unit? In my opinion it's the wordt unit in the expansion. It's either extremely weak in slow numbers, or extremely strong in large numbers. Fights almost never are close. Either one side gets overwhelmed, or the swarmhosts all get killed and the zerg looses. Further, this unit almost only works in a deathball. And weren't we trying to get away from that? I mean, the unit almost only works if it's supported by a large blob of other units, usually your entire army. It can do some base harassing with Nydus worms and so, but in general it's very clunky, slow to deploy and has no interesting burst damage. Maybe some people think locusts versus siege or collosus is fun, but I'm ALREADY bored of it and the game isn't even released. Something that actually holds a position would be a lot more interesting for Zerg instead of even more free units...
I can see your point, but I still think swarm host has a lot of good about it. First of all, it's vulnerable - to air, between locust spawns, when it's moving, etc. This already adds a lot over the current infestor. Furthermore, if they have a mass of swarm hosts near your base, and you absolutely cannot kill them, you can counter much better. 2 of these guys won't stop a drop. And definitely not a doom-drop. They aren't mobile enough.
I don't know how the balance and meta will develop eventually but I like the potential.
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On November 13 2012 02:33 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 02:20 zhurai wrote:On November 13 2012 01:54 Ghanburighan wrote:
Do we really want an infestor nerf now? I'm personally sick of them but it's the timing that's crucial.
HOTS will be out eventually. And there's a very cool new unit there called the swarm host. Despite people disliking it, it's essentially a great unit. It's slow, fragile, but very strong when used well. So, yes, it can destroy you but you can outplay someone using it. This leads to good gameplay (unlike being able to fungal things left and right from 9 range before dumping a billion IT's on top of the remaining army).
So, if the infestor nerf comes now, Blizz will probably water down the nerf and buff something in WoL, but this will probably not lead Blizz to tailor the Z midgame around the swarm host. But I would rather prefer good positional play in the TvZ MU instead of a close simile to what we have now in WoL. infestor swarmhost bl corruptor gogo I'm fine with that...
what makes you think they won't make infestors with it.
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On November 13 2012 05:13 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 02:33 Ghanburighan wrote:On November 13 2012 02:20 zhurai wrote:On November 13 2012 01:54 Ghanburighan wrote:
Do we really want an infestor nerf now? I'm personally sick of them but it's the timing that's crucial.
HOTS will be out eventually. And there's a very cool new unit there called the swarm host. Despite people disliking it, it's essentially a great unit. It's slow, fragile, but very strong when used well. So, yes, it can destroy you but you can outplay someone using it. This leads to good gameplay (unlike being able to fungal things left and right from 9 range before dumping a billion IT's on top of the remaining army).
So, if the infestor nerf comes now, Blizz will probably water down the nerf and buff something in WoL, but this will probably not lead Blizz to tailor the Z midgame around the swarm host. But I would rather prefer good positional play in the TvZ MU instead of a close simile to what we have now in WoL. infestor swarmhost bl corruptor gogo I'm fine with that... what makes you think they won't make infestors with it.
They could, if they nerf them now, especially.. But the reason why I wrote the long post is that if they start balancing HOTS with the idea that infestor is too strong/boring/versatile, they are more likely to nerf harder and emphasize different gameplay.
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Why is DB's name rock? Is that a reference to Destructible rocks?
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On November 13 2012 04:43 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 04:19 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 04:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On November 13 2012 03:52 rd wrote:On November 13 2012 01:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Thank god. This is perhaps one of the most glaring and longest lived blatant imbalances that has ever occurred in SC2.
I'm glad that the developers are finally stepping up. Glaring? Blatant? Long-lived? Took 2 years and lists of zerg buffs/p+t nerfs for this metagame to come to fruition where zergs reached the potential/got good enough. Even then, Protoss and Terran were still very successful playing towards the solution to mass infestor lategame which is just killing zerg before broods pop. It's scarcely an obvious imbalance, if an imbalance at all. We may never know the lategame solution once it's patched, we just know we're very unlikely to find it. One supply roaches was a pretty obvious and blatant imbalance. I have to be honest, but I don't think nerfs or buffs affected much the game as it is now. I think the reason why we did not see infestors as imbalanced before was a combination of small maps, and slow and stagnant zerg metagame development. It took zerg 6 months to learn to use banelings and not only roaches, and an additional 6 months to learn how to stop timing pushed. We can clearly see that when the gap in skill between zerg and terran players was that big 1 year ago, the scene was dominated by good, skilled players. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to catch up though, they just nerfed terran here and there and buffed zerg here and there. And now we are at a point where the skill gap is narrowing, where zergs actually try to micro their units, and we just now notice how much easier and imbalanced their race is and has been in the first place. What we, the terran players ask, is for Blizzard to not employ a double standard and nerf the zerg to the ground as they continiously did with terran for 1.5 years based on the fact that a group of godlike players with godlike micro (MVP, MKP, MMA) were destroying zergs left and right. Blizzard did not wait for the zergs to try and find and answer. They buffed zerg, nerfed terran. Simple as that. Based on a single game of MVP, Blizzard nerfed ghosts's snipe. Based on another single game of MVP against Nestea, Blizzard retracted the decision of buffing raven speed. If they were consistent with the way they deal with things, they should have nerfed infestor brood lord and corruptor 6 to 9 months ago, since EVERY zerg player IN EVERY game IN EVERY matchup uses exactly the same combination, and uses it with ease. Thus, Blizzard must nerf infestor, and nerf it heavily. The problem is that you're under the assumption Blizzard owes you for poor balance decisions in the past and should nerf the infestor with no regard for balance in spite of Zergs. And that's why I'm happy Blizzard didn't listen to community whine this time around and allowed the metagame to flesh itself out before acting -- even if it could be wrong. Do Terrans really think Blizzard should continue a precedent for knee-jerk balance patches simply because they're now on the opposing end of a difficult metagame that isn't being immediately nerfed to the ground? The bias is nauseating. There is no bias in treating everybody equally. Knee-jerk patches or not, terran had been nerfed. I don't see them saying they regret the choices they made, nor even admitting that nerfing terran and buffing zerg and toss was a mistake. Since they don't want to revert changes and admit their mistakes, the only way we can achieve balance is if they nerf the hell out of zerg.
I think regret is not the word you are looking for. It is a little strong for the subject at hand. Regret is used in phrases like "I am really sorry I killed your dog due to my negligence." Do you really want them to show regret for making a video game slightly imbalanced? I mean, that is more of a "Woops, who would have known that 6 months later, that balance change would come back to haunt us?"
When this game was released, someone was going to get nerfed hard, because it was going to be imbalanced. Terran happened to draw the shortest straw and got the crap nerfed out of them. Now, zerg will likely be reigned in and the cycle continues.
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EPT
