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On November 12 2012 10:54 19Nov1980 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 10:13 rd wrote:On November 12 2012 09:45 19Nov1980 wrote:
i have a question!!
why do protoss has to go collosus all the time vs Z, why not making HT to take the 3rd with cannons?
if by any chances the zerg will have just lings and getting infestors as usual, if the zerg go ahead and attacks u have better position to feedback those infestor right?
i think this is a good way to deal with this infestors in the mid game going to lategame and im pretty sure a protoss on 4bases will fight a zerg even with Broodlord infetor combo Zerg doesn't need to attack you if you turtle behind high templar at a third -- or any strategy involving turtling behind a fast third. They'll happily start their 12 minute hive and proceed to roll you over in 4 minutes when broodlords pop. Difficult to take your fourth with a broodlord/infestor ball bearing down upon it. like i said, why not go even more ahead? since protoss know zerg will make a billion roaches why not make just the right amount of HT and the go straight into robo for inmortals? i think it will be a very tight timming but i guess, it can work
Tell me how you're going to get ht's past the zerglings/roaches/broodlords in order to feedback the infestors that are behind his entire army.
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Ok, we are closing on GomTZvZ for this season, only 6 more days until the BWC.
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To the zergs still defending infestors:
I really want to know. Do you actually find them fun to watch? Do you find some sick pleasure in seeing P/T units unable to move, taking heavy damage, and being raped by broodlords? Do you actually feel proud for your pros, marvelling at the skill they needed to cast that simple spell (taking up no more than 2, maybe 3 actions)? Do you find it cool when the zergs are completely outplayed for the whole game, yet can have a ball to move across the map and kill the opponent, without so much as repeatedly using an aoe stunning spell on already stunned units?
Honestly, I couldn't care less about racial distributions in tournaments, or ladder distributions (which actually matter even less). If Zerg games were fun to watch, I'd be okay. As it stands now, only Leenock is remotely "fun" to watch, and that's because his early game aggression is innovative and skill-full, as opposed to the other zergs who just turtle to infestor broodlord, then win with minimal micro while the other player is forced to have perfect play, or else die. Terran at least has a composition that can go head to head with infestor/bl, even if it takes MUCH more micro to use than the simple amove+fungal composition. Protoss has to rely on the coin flippy vortex, which relies on the zerg being dumb enough to not neural or fungal the slow as crap mothership, or the zerg messing up significantly by clumping all the units together.
Right now, infestors are neither cool, balanced, fair, interesting, fun to watch, or require skill to use. I would fully support nerfing them to the ground and buffing less powerful zerg units, such as hydralisks and ultralisks.
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On November 12 2012 02:48 Melaine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:45 c0sm0naut wrote:On November 12 2012 02:41 Melaine wrote:
Fungle has been nerfed several times over the years......I don't understand the fuss.....Terran+protoss had their flavor of the month op, terran was op for 2 years and we had only Terran Gsl's, zerg has few months of great results......and people cry like mad???
This is the only Gsl season code s out of years and many seasons that we finnaly have alot of zergs in the group....and its not because of infestor.....infestors were the same as they were last year and zergs were losing.....only change was the Korean Zergs got better........you guys act like they did a major buff on infestors and all the sudden they are op.
Such silly things people choose to cry about just because their race is losing. I'm surprised Team Liquid puts up with the mass infestor posts and does not start deleting most of them. im surprised you can be so frustrated when the majority of people on this website especially the older players with more RTS experience would tell you that the infestor is bad for Sc2 and bad for esports. if you truly love the zerg race you will understand that they might have to nerf your "support caster" to fill it's role as a support caster and pick up the slack in other areas zerg lacks like harass lategame and unit efficiency without infestor support. My post is not "frustrated" it's just stupid and dumb what people in America choose to cry over, When the GSL casters themselfs and tons of Korean pros have stated, that zerg is strong right now because of the player not because of infestors. People just seem to want to cry over every little thing, last year it was "Protoss is op vs terran" and then mvp showed you people how to play and the crying went away. If infestors are so "op" then why was zerg losing all last year??? Infestor was the same last year as it is now?? All I see is the PLAYER getting better in South Korean, and people in other places just seem want to cry about it instead of trying to get better. Last year we had mostly Protoss and Terrans in Code s, Now its still Terrans, and zerg picked up the slack.....All I see is Players getting better, and the intro of Kespa skill.....
I guess its becoz the zerg's main strategy last year was lings banes mutas and they finally realise infestors broods corruptors ARE THE TITS. (inspired by Stephano yo!)
However stop saying Zerg was so poor before this. Nestea had 3 GSL titles (2 X ZvZ finals), Leenock had 2 MLG titles and one GSL runner up, DRG had 1 GSL title before the Queen buff, Stephano sweeping foreign tournaments.... the list goes on. Now who is being ignorant now
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On November 12 2012 10:54 19Nov1980 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 10:13 rd wrote:On November 12 2012 09:45 19Nov1980 wrote:
i have a question!!
why do protoss has to go collosus all the time vs Z, why not making HT to take the 3rd with cannons?
if by any chances the zerg will have just lings and getting infestors as usual, if the zerg go ahead and attacks u have better position to feedback those infestor right?
i think this is a good way to deal with this infestors in the mid game going to lategame and im pretty sure a protoss on 4bases will fight a zerg even with Broodlord infetor combo Zerg doesn't need to attack you if you turtle behind high templar at a third -- or any strategy involving turtling behind a fast third. They'll happily start their 12 minute hive and proceed to roll you over in 4 minutes when broodlords pop. Difficult to take your fourth with a broodlord/infestor ball bearing down upon it. like i said, why not go even more ahead? since protoss know zerg will make a billion roaches why not make just the right amount of HT and the go straight into robo for inmortals? i think it will be a very tight timming but i guess, it can work
Zerg isn't going to make a billion roaches unless your third is late and they anticipate a timing. You're talking about a metagame from months ago. Go into GM level PvZ's and try your theorycrafting for yourself.
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You know it's bad when people are giving up their real names to become a nickname online! Where do I sign up to sell off Blizzard stock. As for the press release - the information is they are rethinking fungal growth. Along with every sc2 player. Way to be on top of things
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Needs to be nerfed, not by too much, maybe dmg and duration of fungal, but stim needs to also be nerfed along with medivacs.
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Its unlikely they will remove the root and replace it with a slow. That's too big of a design change, they will probably start of with something small for WOL.
Any major design changes will probably occur in the HOTS beta instead.
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I wouldn't get my hopes up too high for a change next week, for what it's worth. The way I interpreted it is they'll use BWC as a way to collect more data, and then start testing. This would also fit very well with a schedule that involved changing the Infestor if necessary after the GSL Code S ends. And that makes logical sense, too. I mean, changing the Infestor mid Code-S...seems pretty bad, given Code S's status as the premier tournament in the world.
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Speaking as a Zerg player, I'd be really excited to see it become a projectile. When I watch lategame Infestor play, it just feels stupidly broken, and projectile feels like a good way to make it dodgeable while still incorporating a micro requirement for the player facing off against it.
That said, I also think that people are starting to find interesting ways to counter the somewhat immobile BL/Infestor combination - most notably the many Protoss that have been starting to really incorporate heavy Warp Prism harass into their play.
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On November 12 2012 11:06 Dunmer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 10:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 12 2012 10:30 Dunmer wrote:On November 12 2012 10:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 12 2012 09:58 Dunmer wrote:On November 12 2012 09:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 12 2012 09:14 Dunmer wrote:On November 12 2012 09:12 ROOTT1 wrote:On November 12 2012 09:09 Dunmer wrote:
Buff feedback against psionic, hence dealing with infestors/ghosts and nerf it against everything else.
i swear to god ill be so fucking mad if blizzard ends up buffing snipe and feedback, that would screw tvp up I didn't mean to change snipe at all, sorry if that was unclear. I mean to change feedback the way snipe was to that it is in fact buffed against infestors and nerfed against regular units. Wait what? You want HTs to deal with Ghosts...? That would screw up viking > colossi, HT > viking, ghost > HT, Colossi > Ghost If they do it right it would be viking > colossi, HT > viking, ghost = HT, Colossi > Ghost, in theory at least. Changing feedback would have a bigger impact on mech/sky terran, I feel its definitely worth changing in a PTR or even hots. That's not a complete rock paper scissors then... What's the counter to HT? Ghosts, the player that better controls his ghosts/High templar will win the micro war, clump all your ghosts/Ht and they get beaten by storm and Colossi/ emp. However spread out like any pro will do will result in the better controlled caster beating the other caster unit. that didn't address my post o.o you still don't have a complete rock paper scissors, instead HT/Colossus > Viking/Ghost, because HT > Viking, Viking > Colossi, and Colossi > Ghost or rather it would just be HT/Colossus > Viking, AKA you have nothing to deal with colossus The only way HT come into play against vikings is if they are clumped, we have learned to split against fungal and should do the same against storm, if the vikings are split then as a terran storm away I'll just emp and snipe away and then use my bio to power through. So if a terran engages badly with his vikings but everything is on par then of course the vikings will die to storms and HT>vikings, but engage well and Ht won't be efficient against vikings and vikings are clearly>Colossi. Side note when you say HT/Colossi> viking, what do you have the Colossi in there for? Or did you mean to have viking/ghosts?
It's not that the HT needs to kill vikings to "counter" it. It's simply that you can't clump them up that HTs are useful against Vikings. Because if you are able to clump them up, you can chip off his Colossus HP before a fight starts -- if you're in a huge battle and have ~20 vikings, there's no way you're going to split them up and still be able to chip off HP like that without getting in stalker range or being way to close to be able to escape without significant losses to blink stalkers.
I mean that if you want Ghost to be equal to HT, then that means there is really no incentive to get Ghosts to stop his HTs -- rather it would just be him getting Colossi to kill you and maybe HTs if you still try to go Vikings. So what I'm saying is that if you want HT=Ghost, you're expecting the Terran player to outplay the Protoss so that his Ghosts beat his HTs. You may argue that if HT=Ghost, then Colossi and Viking are left over, and the terran has the advantage, but that's not true because the vikings will be fighting over your bio army which will be getting stormed anyways.
Unless if terran gets to the late late game where he is able to sac lots of SCVs and keep up income via MULEs and therefore have an army supply advantage over toss, terran lategame is already slightly weaker than protoss. Ghosts are supposed to counter HT but they only have a very slight advantage right now... making the Ghosts even weaker would just make things even worse.
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TBH, I'm all for these types of changes. I play random, and it would be nice to bring some strategy and complexity back into the ZvX matchups.
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On November 12 2012 12:09 xAdra wrote:
To the zergs still defending infestors:
I really want to know. Do you actually find them fun to watch? Do you find some sick pleasure in seeing P/T units unable to move, taking heavy damage, and being raped by broodlords? Do you actually feel proud for your pros, marvelling at the skill they needed to cast that simple spell (taking up no more than 2, maybe 3 actions)? Do you find it cool when the zergs are completely outplayed for the whole game, yet can have a ball to move across the map and kill the opponent, without so much as repeatedly using an aoe stunning spell on already stunned units?
Honestly, I couldn't care less about racial distributions in tournaments, or ladder distributions (which actually matter even less). If Zerg games were fun to watch, I'd be okay. As it stands now, only Leenock is remotely "fun" to watch, and that's because his early game aggression is innovative and skill-full, as opposed to the other zergs who just turtle to infestor broodlord, then win with minimal micro while the other player is forced to have perfect play, or else die. Terran at least has a composition that can go head to head with infestor/bl, even if it takes MUCH more micro to use than the simple amove+fungal composition. Protoss has to rely on the coin flippy vortex, which relies on the zerg being dumb enough to not neural or fungal the slow as crap mothership, or the zerg messing up significantly by clumping all the units together.
Right now, infestors are neither cool, balanced, fair, interesting, fun to watch, or require skill to use. I would fully support nerfing them to the ground and buffing less powerful zerg units, such as hydralisks and ultralisks.
Vortex should never work... if you split brood lords and Neural Parasite the mothership the Vortex can be completely negated. It's fucking stupid that the one counter to BL/Infestor army relies on the Zerg screwing up like an idiot and not microing. It hilarious that this is still a counter at high levels of play. Zergs should be ashamed that this works.
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I like fungal becoming a projectile, do not like the possibility that blink all-ins will be even harder to defend. Honestly I think the main problem with the infestor lately, is that pros have been using energy on IT's instead of fungal, and that seems to work better. I think a IT nerf over a fungal nerf is the way to go.
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On November 12 2012 13:16 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:09 xAdra wrote:
To the zergs still defending infestors:
I really want to know. Do you actually find them fun to watch? Do you find some sick pleasure in seeing P/T units unable to move, taking heavy damage, and being raped by broodlords? Do you actually feel proud for your pros, marvelling at the skill they needed to cast that simple spell (taking up no more than 2, maybe 3 actions)? Do you find it cool when the zergs are completely outplayed for the whole game, yet can have a ball to move across the map and kill the opponent, without so much as repeatedly using an aoe stunning spell on already stunned units?
Honestly, I couldn't care less about racial distributions in tournaments, or ladder distributions (which actually matter even less). If Zerg games were fun to watch, I'd be okay. As it stands now, only Leenock is remotely "fun" to watch, and that's because his early game aggression is innovative and skill-full, as opposed to the other zergs who just turtle to infestor broodlord, then win with minimal micro while the other player is forced to have perfect play, or else die. Terran at least has a composition that can go head to head with infestor/bl, even if it takes MUCH more micro to use than the simple amove+fungal composition. Protoss has to rely on the coin flippy vortex, which relies on the zerg being dumb enough to not neural or fungal the slow as crap mothership, or the zerg messing up significantly by clumping all the units together.
Right now, infestors are neither cool, balanced, fair, interesting, fun to watch, or require skill to use. I would fully support nerfing them to the ground and buffing less powerful zerg units, such as hydralisks and ultralisks. Vortex should never work... if you split brood lords and Neural Parasite the mothership the Vortex can be completely negated. It's fucking stupid that the one counter to BL/Infestor army relies on the Zerg screwing up like an idiot and not microing. It hilarious that this is still a counter at high levels of play. Zergs should be ashamed that this works.
Splitting is an easy way to negate it, but a neural is pretty hard to land. I think if you land a neural, then the P and not microed correctly.
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Does that mean getting rid of pathogen glands is off the table?
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On November 12 2012 02:48 Melaine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:45 c0sm0naut wrote:On November 12 2012 02:41 Melaine wrote:
Fungle has been nerfed several times over the years......I don't understand the fuss.....Terran+protoss had their flavor of the month op, terran was op for 2 years and we had only Terran Gsl's, zerg has few months of great results......and people cry like mad???
This is the only Gsl season code s out of years and many seasons that we finnaly have alot of zergs in the group....and its not because of infestor.....infestors were the same as they were last year and zergs were losing.....only change was the Korean Zergs got better........you guys act like they did a major buff on infestors and all the sudden they are op.
Such silly things people choose to cry about just because their race is losing. I'm surprised Team Liquid puts up with the mass infestor posts and does not start deleting most of them. im surprised you can be so frustrated when the majority of people on this website especially the older players with more RTS experience would tell you that the infestor is bad for Sc2 and bad for esports. if you truly love the zerg race you will understand that they might have to nerf your "support caster" to fill it's role as a support caster and pick up the slack in other areas zerg lacks like harass lategame and unit efficiency without infestor support. My post is not "frustrated" it's just stupid and dumb what people in America choose to cry over, When the GSL casters themselfs and tons of Korean pros have stated, that zerg is strong right now because of the player not because of infestors.People just seem to want to cry over every little thing, last year it was "Protoss is op vs terran" and then mvp showed you people how to play and the crying went away. If infestors are so "op" then why was zerg losing all last year??? Infestor was the same last year as it is now?? All I see is the PLAYER getting better in South Korean, and people in other places just seem want to cry about it instead of trying to get better. Last year we had mostly Protoss and Terrans in Code s, Now its still Terrans, and zerg picked up the slack.....All I see is Players getting better, and the intro of Kespa skill.....
bold part, care to provide proof will you? There's a thread about korean pros whining about Zerg and even Nestea had to admit that Zerg is OP.
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On November 12 2012 13:23 Venomsflame wrote:
Does that mean getting rid of pathogen glands is off the table?
Pathogen glands isn't a problem, because w/o it, Z would be fucked in mid game. Late game with 30 infestors, pathogen glands doesn't make any difference.
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My first time seeing the fungal projectile and it looks really cool on paper. However, it might not solve the problem. In a large army battle, you're not exactly going to be able to react, but it also takes away the infestor ability to deal with small harass packs. I'm not 100% sure that's the interaction that needs to change with Fungal - i think the way infestor works into/against large late game armies is what needs to change, and I don't think making fungal into a projectile would change that? (I reserve the right to be wrong.)
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So, nothing to do in StarCraft 2 until BWC finishes.
Thanks, DB.
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EPT
