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Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players
I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment.
You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment.
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On November 03 2012 06:27 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:17 Zennith wrote:
And only available to college students. Yeah, I'm sure by extension it could reach highschool level over time. I think its a much more ideal model than seeing kids like Leenock leaving school at 15/16 to pursue a full time career in a risky and extremely unforgiving industry.
Perhaps. But what do you do with those older or who aren't in school? Or what if the school they go to just doesn't have enough players to form a team? CSL is fine, but it's not enough on its own.
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On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment.
And hey, the US is obviously a different beast - people live far apart, and it's not feasible to house everyone. You can still give people time and energy and good training, even if they're doing other things also. The idea would be that if you do well in the academy and show your stuff, you get called up and THEN you go to the pro house, etc. It's still giving these players more than they get right now.
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On November 03 2012 06:33 Zennith wrote:
Perhaps. But what do you do with those older or who aren't in school?
To be totally honest if you are older than a college grad and deciding to go pro you will most likely be the first person who has ever succeeded in that if you make it. I just don't think any system will help accomplish that goal.
If you are simply not academic or don't have any desire to go to college.. I think its up to that person to make it happen. Most likely by saving up money for a while before giving it a shot, or with financial support from a relative or backer of some sort. If you don't have sufficient drive to make it possible for yourself to try, you are most likely never going to succeed in becoming a pro-gamer.
I think we have seen even just today that a project like the GOM foreigner house didn't yield results. And that provided a very similar support to what any minor league or b-team could currently.
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On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment.
personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path.
Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/
I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none.
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On November 03 2012 06:47 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:33 Zennith wrote:
Perhaps. But what do you do with those older or who aren't in school? To be totally honest if you are older than a college grad and deciding to go pro you will most likely be the first person who has ever succeeded in that if you make it. I just don't think any system will help accomplish that goal. If you are simply not academic or don't have any desire to go to college.. I think its up to that person to make it happen. Most likely by saving up money for a while before giving it a shot, or with financial support from a relative or backer of some sort. If you don't have sufficient drive to make it possible for yourself to try, you are most likely never going to succeed in becoming a pro-gamer. I think we have seen even just today that a project like the GOM foreigner house didn't yield results. And that provided a very similar support to what any minor league or b-team could currently.
Right, but it was in Korea, not in NA, and it wasn't actually run by any team.
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential.
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On November 03 2012 06:48 Zennith wrote:
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential.
I didn't say its impossible, I just pointed out that if someone were to do it they would be the first. To the best of my knowledge. That should act as reasonable indicator of probability of success.
I accept that the GOM house is in Korea and that's a little bit different, but I think its a reasonable comparative tool to what you could hope to get in a b-team environment currently. Keep in mind that even with all their dirty cash EG don't even have a full time coach. Nor do Quantic or Complexity. If the biggest teams cant acquire a dedicated coach for their premier players how are they going to find one for a b-team?
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On November 03 2012 07:11 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:48 Zennith wrote:
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential. I didn't say its impossible, I just pointed out that if someone were to do it they would be the first. To the best of my knowledge. That should act as reasonable indicator of probability of success. I accept that the GOM house is in Korea and that's a little bit different, but I think its a reasonable comparative tool to what you could hope to get in a b-team environment currently. Keep in mind that even with all their dirty cash EG don't even have a full time coach. Nor do Quantic or Complexity. If the biggest teams cant acquire a dedicated coach for their premier players how are they going to find one for a b-team?
Most players at the gom house, didnt practice with anyone and just laddered, as thats all the gom house provided, It didnt give a solid practice environment to improve it was just a place to stay. Desrow had a big write up a while ago on his time there and thats my TLDR version. And what does having a coach have to do with just practicing with solid players or getting people interested in those players? No one even freaking mentioned a coach anywhere in this thread as far as I know =/
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On November 03 2012 07:11 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:48 Zennith wrote:
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential. I didn't say its impossible, I just pointed out that if someone were to do it they would be the first. To the best of my knowledge. That should act as reasonable indicator of probability of success. I accept that the GOM house is in Korea and that's a little bit different, but I think its a reasonable comparative tool to what you could hope to get in a b-team environment currently. Keep in mind that even with all their dirty cash EG don't even have a full time coach. Nor do Quantic or Complexity. If the biggest teams cant acquire a dedicated coach for their premier players how are they going to find one for a b-team?
You lose credibility when you start talking about dirty money.
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On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none.
This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench.
If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed.
If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol.
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On November 03 2012 07:19 Zennith wrote:
You lose credibility when you start talking about dirty money.
That was intended to be a joke.
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I just don't think we need a minor league. You don't need a farm system and there are ways for teams to notice you. If you are not good at promoting yourself as a player you will struggle. You need to keep track of via a list and replays of known players you've beaten via ladder and a seperate list for tournaments. Play those weekly tournaments. Save up that cash and send yourself to all of the mlg's. Get a stream going and promote it. People aren't just going to hand you a player contract. You have to prove you deserve it. Teams and sponsors want results and personalities that get noticed. I think getting reliable practice partners would be the hardest thing to do. Most of the people at the top f the ladder have everybdy on ignore or are too busy grinding games to chat. It doesn't hurt to send a message and ask if they want to form a partnership. I think being n person at tournaments would be the easiest way to pick up a group practice partners.
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On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol.
So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point.
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On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point.
And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments.
The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players.
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On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players.
No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you.
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On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you.
There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak:
1) Developing non-Pros into Pros.
2) Making the NA scene competitive.
The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish.
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On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish.
Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless.
And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread?
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On November 03 2012 12:05 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish. Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless. And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread?
Yes, you actually did say "insanely good ROI". Verbatim.
And what I feel about the NA scene is completely irrelevant. You're asking why teams don't invest in minor leagues, and I'm telling you bluntly. Making the NA scene competitive is simply not a smart business plan considering the financial state of most teams. Entire countries have problems making their nations competitive in sports, and they can actually afford to invest in the very long term.
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I would love to see the distinction made between a team or academy and a club or a clan. The way I see it, professionals (i.e. anyone who makes their living purely derived from playing SC2 as a result of tournament winnings, sponsorship, team provided salary or streaming) are employed by teams. Clubs or clans are groups of players who enjoy the game, and may be able to play at an extremely high level but either have no plans or means to play professionally, and/or have additional responsibilities (work or school) that impede their development.
I love the idea of minor leagues, but the burden is not on teams to provide them with everything that is unreasonable. My proposition for development is as follows:
Teams and Academies
-Players draw some amount of payment from the team directly.
-Players may participate in any league.
-Players have access to team support for travel and lodging.
Clans and Clubs
-Presumably high level players solicit involvement directly with the team.
-Ineligible to participate on the part of the team in leagues
-Purely voluntary, all game and competition expenses on the Club member
What club and clan members get after being accepted.
-Access to team level practice.
-Opportunity for consideration for the Academy or team based on results or performance.
-Clan tag (Gamer credentials of course)
-Exposure through individual endeavors and clan/club level leagues.
I think of it as the difference between being a contractor and an employee at a major company. You get in on your own merit, and demonstrate to the owners of the team that you are worth the investment while taking advantage of the environment and culture the team provides.
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On November 03 2012 12:18 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:05 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish. Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless. And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread? Yes, you actually did say "insanely good ROI". Verbatim.
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...)
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EPT
