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Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team.
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On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team.
And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players.
One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing.
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On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing.
You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash?
I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything 
The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities.
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On November 03 2012 01:25 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing. You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash? I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities.
Yeah, absolutely. I would never stand in the way of players moving up - it's only a good thing for them. But the problem is that the constant growth and destruction of middle of the road teams (which often happens regardless of loyalty - there are just things that teams like quantic can offer that most NA teams can not) is actually not sustainable for the long term. Wouldn't institutional organizations tied to the major teams be more likely to be maintained?
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On November 03 2012 01:53 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:25 chadissilent wrote:On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing. You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash? I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities. Yeah, absolutely. I would never stand in the way of players moving up - it's only a good thing for them. But the problem is that the constant growth and destruction of middle of the road teams (which often happens regardless of loyalty - there are just things that teams like quantic can offer that most NA teams can not) is actually not sustainable for the long term. Wouldn't institutional organizations tied to the major teams be more likely to be maintained?
Yes, but that requires both time AND money. Why invest these if someone else can do it for you? If I make $80/hour at work, would I spend an hour to do my own oil change or have someone else do it for me? It's simple economics, there is no reason for a top tier team to use their (sometimes) limited resources when someone else can do it for them.
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On November 03 2012 01:59 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:53 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:25 chadissilent wrote:On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing. You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash? I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities. Yeah, absolutely. I would never stand in the way of players moving up - it's only a good thing for them. But the problem is that the constant growth and destruction of middle of the road teams (which often happens regardless of loyalty - there are just things that teams like quantic can offer that most NA teams can not) is actually not sustainable for the long term. Wouldn't institutional organizations tied to the major teams be more likely to be maintained? Yes, but that requires both time AND money. Why invest these if someone else can do it for you? If I make $80/hour at work, would I spend an hour to do my own oil change or have someone else do it for me? It's simple economics, there is no reason for a top tier team to use their (sometimes) limited resources when someone else can do it for them.
Because hopefully, if they invest in it themselves, maybe they'll be better at it, and they can develop north american players more consistently. The only reason to do it would be if you think you can do it better and you can get more in the long run. Maybe you're right, maybe teams aren't there yet. But I really do feel like in the long run, the healthiest thing for the scene would be the major teams taking a real interest in the development of players.
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The money isn't there for the teams to do this. Maybe in LoL, but not SC2. It costs money to give the players incentive, to recruit them, to hire good, competent staff. With more players comes more backend staff ranging from managers to marketing/promotions people to graphic designers. You can't just take on more players and expect existing staff to work twice as hard for no tangible benefit.
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On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing.
I also run a team, My Intent on the North American server. We've had some of our most successful players join other teams - but that's how it goes. Teams that are disbanding after losing talent are soft. You're going to hit speedbumps when you're trying to accomplish something, welcome to everything in life ever.
The last thing that premier teams want is a bloated roster. Quality over quantity. There's also the issue of player behaviour. Less to worry about with less players on the roster. All it takes is one misplaced comment from one player to cause a whole lot of headaches.
For the vast majority of teams, it doesn't make any sense at all to make an academy. It's up to the Minor teams to have arrangements that don't leave them with nothing when they lose their players to people who can afford them.
That's the ecosystem - top players going to organizations that can pay top dollar is best for everyone in the end.
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Like there is not enough content already. There are no minor leagues because most likely there wouldnt be much viewers. And who would do them without any return?
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On November 03 2012 02:26 NightOfTheDead wrote:
Like there is not enough content already. There are no minor leagues because most likely there wouldnt be much viewers. And who would do them without any return?
Again, this isn't really about content. It's about making long-term investments into the North American scene, sort of in the way Korean teams have done to much success.
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On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development.
Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic.
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On November 03 2012 05:12 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development. Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic.
Oh yeah, 20+ players per team would be absurd. I'm talking 3 - 5. If it's not realistic, how is it that Complexity is always doing it?
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On November 03 2012 05:32 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 05:12 ishyishy wrote:On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development. Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic. Oh yeah, 20+ players per team would be absurd. I'm talking 3 - 5. If it's not realistic, how is it that Complexity is always doing it?
Ok, and how many times have we heard soemthing good coming out of complexity? I barely know who they are lol. In fact, the only reason i have minimal interest in them at all is because everyone is always talking about this apparent rivalry with eg, which i also dont understand lol.
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On November 03 2012 05:37 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 05:32 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 05:12 ishyishy wrote:On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development. Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic. Oh yeah, 20+ players per team would be absurd. I'm talking 3 - 5. If it's not realistic, how is it that Complexity is always doing it? Ok, and how many times have we heard soemthing good coming out of complexity? I barely know who they are lol. In fact, the only reason i have minimal interest in them at all is because everyone is always talking about this apparent rivalry with eg, which i also dont understand lol.
What? I'm an EG fan myself, but Col has been a big player on the scene for quite a while... they also have Koreans like Ganzi and Heart, and have plenty of strong players. The Academy that they have is also helping, in that they've gotten players like Goswser and Sasquatch, both of whom are putting up strong results.
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What? I'm an EG fan myself, but Col has been a big player on the scene for quite a while... they also have Koreans like Ganzi and Heart, and have plenty of strong players. The Academy that they have is also helping, in that they've gotten players like Goswser and Sasquatch, both of whom are putting up strong results.
The [unfortunate] nature of this kind of competition is that people (mainly the fans, casual players, spectators, sponsors) only truely care about the major events and tournaments, and the players at the *very* top of the game right now.
Showing results in smaller events is fine, but that only really lets their team know that they are trying their best to improve. The fans dont care about playhem results, or some random tournament that gets sub 2k viewers.
Ok so you want each of these "big" foreign teams to adopt a B squad of 3-5 people, all of which don't have major tournament results (because if they did, they would be on the A-squad anyway), and you want these teams to provide life-sustaining support to these B-teamers that have 'some' potential? It just isnt a wise business decision on the surface, why else do teams like liquid and EG not do shit like that? It cant be because the people who run these other teams are dumbasses right? It's because it is a huge gamble that requires an investment.
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On November 03 2012 05:54 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +What? I'm an EG fan myself, but Col has been a big player on the scene for quite a while... they also have Koreans like Ganzi and Heart, and have plenty of strong players. The Academy that they have is also helping, in that they've gotten players like Goswser and Sasquatch, both of whom are putting up strong results. The [unfortunate] nature of this kind of competition is that people (mainly the fans, casual players, spectators, sponsors) only truely care about the major events and tournaments, and the players at the *very* top of the game right now. Showing results in smaller events is fine, but that only really lets their team know that they are trying their best to improve. The fans dont care about playhem results, or some random tournament that gets sub 2k viewers. Ok so you want each of these "big" foreign teams to adopt a B squad of 3-5 people, all of which don't have major tournament results (because if they did, they would be on the A-squad anyway), and you want these teams to provide life-sustaining support to these B-teamers that have 'some' potential? It just isnt a wise business decision on the surface, why else do teams like liquid and EG not do shit like that? It cant be because the people who run these other teams are dumbasses right? It's because it is a huge gamble that requires an investment.
Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players.
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I believe the CSL is a much better alternative to any "minor league". It is healthy, sustainable and conscientious.
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On November 03 2012 06:14 Rezudox wrote:
I believe the CSL is a much better alternative to any "minor league". It is healthy, sustainable and conscientious.
And only available to college students.
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On November 03 2012 06:17 Zennith wrote:
And only available to college students.
Yeah, I'm sure by extension it could reach highschool level over time. I think its a much more ideal model than seeing kids like Leenock leaving school at 15/16 to pursue a full time career in a risky and extremely unforgiving industry.
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EPT
