EPTPeople demanded something else so we got the koreans etc in.
Where are the Minor Leagues? - Page 2
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
People demanded something else so we got the koreans etc in. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16097 Posts
It's a minor league of sorts. www.twitch.tv/impulse | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 11:12 Vindicare605 wrote: You should check out the Indie Starcraft Team League. It's a minor league of sorts. www.twitch.tv/impulse Yeah, and this sort of team league is absolutely great. But at the end of the day, Amateur teams are really hard to make sustainable. And the second the team starts losing players to better organizations or other games, the team usually folds. What we need is something more institutional, something from the highest level organizations. The only way a minor league system will work is if it becomes something that the "Major League" teams organize and run. They just need to see that it is worthwhile, and that the audience/player base is there. I truly believe that it is. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote: Right now, in SC2, Players are looking for Teams. Teams have more talent than they can afford to pay (at least pay fairly). There isn't any room for Teams to start investing resources, however minimal, in potential future players. I really don't buy that. I just don't. Teams may not have crazy amounts of money, but if Complexity can afford to do it, EG and Team Liquid most certainly could as well. | ||
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robzgod
78 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:43 robzgod wrote: There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things. I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are. | ||
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robzgod
78 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:46 Zennith wrote: I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are. I wish it was easy as that, but those players on the cusp of becoming pro (the one's you're talking about) tend to have the worst attitudes, egos and are in a situation where they can't commit to playing full-time because they aren't getting salary. They seem to think that they're at the level where they should be getting a salary, but really aren't. It's the "minor league" delusion where they feel entitled to things they haven't earned, and it's very common within the group you're talking about. I know this because I've worked with them for the last 5 years, which is why it's much more effective to build from the bottom up. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
Is the idea that they just aren't getting enough exposure? If that's your complaint then...work to expose them more! I think clans being implemented will help a bit with this though, and (i know people are impatient and starcraft is the biggest and most grown-up it's ever going to be) but as the scene continues to develop and shift I think minors will start to develop more. Realistically a good chunk of the "major" tournaments are going to get filtered and die out or move down as time passes and there will be a bigger, clearer gap and as the scene grows the lower will get more attention. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:52 robzgod wrote: I wish it was easy as that, but those players on the cusp of becoming pro (the one's you're talking about) tend to have the worst attitudes, egos and are in a situation where they can't commit to playing full-time because they aren't getting salary. They seem to think that they're at the level where they should be getting a salary, but really aren't. It's the "minor league" delusion where they feel entitled to things they haven't earned, and it's very common within the group you're talking about. I know this because I've dealt with them for the last 5 years, which is why it's much more effective to build from the bottom up. Maybe so, but there's also a lot more prestige/potential when you're playing for a team like EG or Col than there is playing for mostly amateur team (which I have nothing against - hell, I manage an amateur NA team myself). The benefits of being on a team like EG or Col (even if it is the B team) would absolutely outweigh what meager salary they could expect from any team before they've gotten big results. Indieleague, CSL...how many do you need? Is the idea that they just aren't getting enough exposure? If that's your complaint then...work to expose them more! I think clans being implemented will help a bit with this though, and (i know people are impatient and starcraft is the biggest and most grown-up it's ever going to be) but as the scene continues to develop and shift I think minors will start to develop more. Realistically a good chunk of the "major" tournaments are going to get filtered and die out or move down as time passes and there will be a bigger, clearer gap and as the scene grows the lower will get more attention. That scene is absolutely important, and it's actually pretty vibrant - despite how complex and in flux the lower level - mid-tier scene is. But that's still not what I refer to. I'm referring to a real minor league, ala the BW Korean B-Teams. The best players who haven't yet become real professional players. There aren't THAT many of them, but they definitely exist. And that's the talent we really need to develop in order to stand on par with the EU and KR scenes. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
And if you have devoted workers focused on this group, for both training and content management, you're essentially asking teams to be two teams. Or, conversely, if teams like Liquid and EG are using their existing resources to support these players...why not just call them main members of the team? Complexity made the decision to create a separate entity for their up and coming potentials, and promote it as an "Academy" for players trying to become full-time pros. It's as much a marketing strategy as it is an actual organization. | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On November 02 2012 09:42 ShatterZer0 wrote: I feel terrible saying this, but aren't foreign teams the little leagues? I mean... most Korean teams just stamp out foreign teams with a few small exceptions... from foreign teams with Koreans on them. So there. I said it. GSTL is the Major League. MCSL, NASTL, and IPTL are minor leagues because they generally have lower caliber games, generally have less thought behind player lineups, and often have server lag. I don't agree with that at all. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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robzgod
78 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:56 Zennith wrote: Maybe so, but there's also a lot more prestige/potential when you're playing for a team like EG or Col than there is playing for mostly amateur team (which I have nothing against - hell, I manage an amateur NA team myself). The benefits of being on a team like EG or Col (even if it is the B team) would absolutely outweigh what meager salary they could expect from any team before they've gotten big results. Yeah I agree completely, but those teams don't have money to throw around. They're in the business of buying out top talent, it's just how the ecosystem currently is. I don't agree with it, but there are a lot of factors that play into this. For Example, team branding is a big one. If EG picked up an amateur group of players, their team branding would suffer because those players aren't the core of what EG is "The Yankees of Gaming." -- Quote from their sponsorship deck, lol | ||
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CableSCES
United States367 Posts
The problems really do boil down to time and money, as was previously commented on here. We felt successful in that some of our players were able to be slightly boosted, but even how much I hope and dream for them, and try to support them, they’ve still had a rough go into the Pros. Players like Mystik, STX, Rhythm (Bubbles), and Russano. One cool side effect was some talent that was able to be boosted a bit more into eSports success by our events, to get some exposure, folks such as FrodaN (love this dude so much, so happy for you bro), Megumi (hostess/caster), Crota (caster/media), RumCake (manager), Shindigs (all-around-eSports BAWS), Alex (Sound guy), Carlton (photographer), and more. And that makes me super proud to know that I created an environment that helped them thrive, to get a bit more exposure. But while it's nice boosting people into the scene, cost is still an issue -- and getting sponsorships or funding from sponsors is incredibly difficult - as we all know they want ROI or else it makes no sense to give money, and it's very difficult for the "minor leagues" to get the exposure sponsors want to see. A small note can be made about “eSports Entrepreneurs” too, and how much they don’t want to ‘play nice in the sand box,’ it can be another discussion entirely, but it does play a role in the success or failure of any endeavor in this world, because connections and your team are key. But again, through the filter of this, I was able to meet and work with the amazing people above. The truth is, I've busted my ass trying to make something like a minor league happen for over a year now, from the league sense not from the team sense, and it is freaking hard. I still wish it would happen, ideally for everyone in the US, but I’ll keep trying with what I can here in SoCal. So jealous of the TeSPA folks, they do an amazing job.  Edit: This thread inspired me to finally start a TL blog about SoCal's endeavors and journey - so for an expanded version of this post, check out: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=379548 | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:56 WolfintheSheep wrote: When it comes down to it, minor league players are essentially just Grandmaster players with a slightly more organized group of practice partners and a lot more publicity. And if you have devoted workers focused on this group, for both training and content management, you're essentially asking teams to be two teams. Or, conversely, if teams like Liquid and EG are using their existing resources to support these players...why not just call them main members of the team? Complexity made the decision to create a separate entity for their up and coming potentials, and promote it as an "Academy" for players trying to become full-time pros. It's as much a marketing strategy as it is an actual organization. But I feel like the Col. Academy is essentially both. It's a great marketing strategy, but it also gives player a chance to prove their stuff, and the entrance to the Academy comes through open tournaments (which aren't common enough, that's my only complaint). They become part of a separate entity that can still allow for progression and eventual promotion to the main team (ala Goswser). That's exactly what a minor league is, and it's both great for marketing and for player development. At the end of the day, it may not be feasible to have open tournaments in order to become a true member of EG, TL, or Col. That's why the academy exists - to find new talent, nurture it, and eventually promote it to the big time once the player is ready (both in terms of skill and in terms of understanding what it means to truly represent a team/organization). | ||
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robzgod
78 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:04 Zennith wrote: But I feel like the Col. Academy is essentially both. It's a great marketing strategy, but it also gives player a chance to prove their stuff, and the entrance to the Academy comes through open tournaments (which aren't common enough, that's my only complaint). They become part of a separate entity that can still allow for progression and eventual promotion to the main team (ala Goswser). That's exactly what a minor league is, and it's both great for marketing and for player development. At the end of the day, it may not be feasible to have open tournaments in order to become a true member of EG, TL, or Col. That's why the academy exists - to find new talent, nurture it, and eventually promote it to the big time once the player is ready (both in terms of skill and in terms of understanding what it means to truly represent a team/organization). I think you're underestimating the people problem though. Having the right people to run it and participate is the most important part, which I don't think is something that these teams have found yet. We always get asked when we're going to open up our next Aspire program for other games or another for SC2 and it's just about finding the right not only people to run it, but participate as well. It's much more difficult and critical than it seems from the surface. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
The skill required can't be "grown" by teams. SC is an individual sport. The player has to be pushing himself to improve and be good enough. Unlike actual sports, he doesn't need to have a team to practice with all the time, he doesn't need a full multiman team to play against, and he doesn't even need the coaching. All the tools a player needs to become better are at his disposal, and if that player wants to be a professional, he has to be able to identify his mistakes on his own, figure out what adjustments he needs to make on his own, and be able to maintain a work ethic on his own. There are players who can manage the above, and therefore play at a high level. Those are the players that teams need to be interested in, as they show they already have the chops and competence to go from a good player, to a player who can place at tournaments. Those are the players that deserve the support a team can offer. Those players don't need the "help" from a team to improve. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:09 robzgod wrote: I think you're underestimating the people problem though. Having the right people to run it and participate is the most important part, which I don't think is something that these teams have found yet. We always get asked when we're going to open up our next Aspire program for other games or another for SC2 and it's just about finding the right not only people to run it, but participate as well. It's much more difficult and critical than it seems from the surface. Yeah, this is definitely the case - personnel is always an issue absolutely. But while it takes work, I do feel like there is a clear benefit to this system - and as was stated earlier, if a team like EG put out notice that they were looking for someone to take on a project like this, I'm willing to bet they'd get a lot of applicants. And for what was mentioned earlier about branding - about EG not wanting to hurt their brand with a bunch of amateurs - THAT's the exact reason for a minor league academy. As long as it is clear that this is not the top pro team, but a group of minor league players who might one day move up, I see no reason why it would hurt EG as a team in terms of marketing or branding. Hell, it might create some goodwill for them in the community. Nobody makes fun of the Yankees if the Trenton Thunder lose. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:09 Gamegene wrote: If players want to actually compete, they have to be prepared to compete with the best players around the world. The skill required can't be "grown" by teams. SC is an individual sport. The player has to be pushing himself to improve and be good enough. Unlike actual sports, he doesn't need to have a team to practice with all the time, he doesn't need a full multiman team to play against, and he doesn't even need the coaching. All the tools a player needs to become better are at his disposal, and if that player wants to be a professional, he has to be able to identify his mistakes on his own, figure out what adjustments he needs to make on his own, and be able to maintain a work ethic on his own. There are players who can manage the above, and therefore play at a high level. Those are the players that teams need to be interested in, as they show they already have the chops and competence to go from a good player, to a player who can place at tournaments. Those are the players that deserve the support a team can offer. Those players don't need the "help" from a team to improve. And hey, most of/all of this is true. You don't NEED coaching. You don't NEED the team aspect of things to improve, no doubt. That's why I'm not talking about a system like this for mid-masters players. I'm talking about the highest level players who aren't yet professionals. You need players who are willing to put in the time and effort, players who are dedicated and aren't in it for the money. They may not absolutely need help from a team to improve, but having consistent coaching and practice partners can't be a bad thing for a players improvement - think about how much GSL players thank the players they practice with. They know they need a support structure, even if by themselves they'd already become some of the best players in the world. Like I said - there aren't a TON of players who fit this criteria who aren't already professional players, but there definitely are some. And that's the scene the NA needs, that's the side of things that needs to grow and improve. | ||
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