EPTAdditionally, like Gamegene said, SCII is an individual game that doesn't require anything other than your computer, the game, and an internet connection. If you have the desire to become a top professional SCII progamer, then it's your job to become one, not any team's responsibility. When you become a person of such material in some team recruiter's eyes, then that is when you should have the chance.
Where are the Minor Leagues? - Page 3
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
Additionally, like Gamegene said, SCII is an individual game that doesn't require anything other than your computer, the game, and an internet connection. If you have the desire to become a top professional SCII progamer, then it's your job to become one, not any team's responsibility. When you become a person of such material in some team recruiter's eyes, then that is when you should have the chance. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On November 02 2012 11:39 Zennith wrote: I really don't buy that. I just don't. Teams may not have crazy amounts of money, but if Complexity can afford to do it, EG and Team Liquid most certainly could as well. But why? Its not really worth it for big teams. Honestly its not up to the big teams. Right now there are a ton of smaller teams that fill the void there. There are a ton of tournaments for the players. I think CSL is one of the best for this "minor leagues" idea. MLG's open bracket has been huge in this as well. Suppy and Goswer come to mind of players who made a big run in the open bracket and then got more attention and were picked up. Right now, the time and money that would be spent of a "minor league" team just isn't worth it for most teams. What Complexity does is awesome. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone. Why should EG spend time and money on a minor league team, when they can just keep their eye out on up and comers (like they did with Suppy) and then also sign Thorzain and Stephano? We just aren't at the stage where teams can support the minor leagues set up. we gotta secure the major leagues first. There isn't enough of a gap between the two right now even, the player base is small. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:04 CableStarcraft wrote: I decided to create a “Minor League Circuit” here locally in SoCal, with basically the ideal that you mention here: to foster and support the growth of up-and-coming local players and talent – to build up the local community of SC players. We’ve held 3 open LANs in the past year, and did this by means of BarCrafts. The problems really do boil down to time and money, as was previously commented on here. We felt successful in that some of our players were able to be slightly boosted, but even how much I hope and dream for them, and try to support them, they’ve still had a rough go into the Pros. Players like Mystik, STX, Rhythm (Bubbles), and Russano. One cool side effect was some talent that was able to be boosted a bit more into eSports success by our events, to get some exposure, folks such as FrodaN (love this dude so much, so happy for you bro), Megumi (hostess/caster), Crota (caster/media), RumCake (manager), Shindigs (all-around-eSports BAWS), Alex (Sound guy), Carlton (photographer), and more. And that makes me super proud to know that I created an environment that helped them thrive, to get a bit more exposure. But while it's nice boosting people into the scene, cost is still an issue -- and getting sponsorships or funding from sponsors is incredibly difficult - as we all know they want ROI or else it makes no sense to give money, and it's very difficult for the "minor leagues" to get the exposure sponsors want to see. A small note can be made about “eSports Entrepreneurs” too, and how much they don’t want to ‘play nice in the sand box,’ it can be another discussion entirely, but it does play a role in the success or failure of any endeavor in this world, because connections and your team are key. But again, through the filter of this, I was able to meet and work with the amazing people above. The truth is, I've busted my ass trying to make something like a minor league happen for over a year now, from the league sense not from the team sense, and it is freaking hard. I still wish it would happen, ideally for everyone in the US, but I’ll keep trying with what I can here in SoCal. So jealous of the TeSPA folks, they do an amazing job.  Edit: This thread inspired me to finally start a TL blog about SoCal's endeavors and journey - so for an expanded version of this post, check out: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=379548 Dude, this is fantastic stuff, and I'm really glad to read about it, as I had no idea this existed. Cost and Sponsorship is always going to be an issue, but this sort of environment is actually really great and is another way to go about creating the same sort of opportunities for up and coming players, which is really what this whole thing is about. And hell yeah, I'm sure it's tough. But it's seriously awesome that you're moving forward and still pursuing this to the fullest extent possible. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:22 Zennith wrote: Like I said - there aren't a TON of players who fit this criteria who aren't already professional players, but there definitely are some. And that's the scene the NA needs, that's the side of things that needs to grow and improve. On NA specifically there is probably less than 25 players who do not have teams, who can compete in today's playing field. If we're talking about "competing with other NA players" then yes, there's hundreds of players who might become one of the better NA players out there. Maybe a year ago, that would have been relevant for teams looking to expand their rosters, but here and now you are expected to compete against Koreans, against foreigners who've won championships, who've made their names known by slaying Koreans, unless you have some other niche entertainment you provide to the audience. The names you mentioned and some including my own: Illusion MaSa Suppy Trimaster Scarlett'. They weren't given any recognition because they beat other NA players. They got recognition, team offers and opportunities because they showed that they deserved it, that they were on the same level as other professionals despite not having any *tangible* support, that they were ready to be competitive with not just their peers but the Koreans invading everywhere. No one is interested anymore in a slightly bigger fish who can beat all the small fry's in his pond. They want to someone who's capable of fighting the world (Korea specifically). | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:28 jmbthirteen wrote: Right now, the time and money that would be spent of a "minor league" team just isn't worth it for most teams. What Complexity does is awesome. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone. Why should EG spend time and money on a minor league team, when they can just keep their eye out on up and comers (like they did with Suppy) and then also sign Thorzain and Stephano? Think of it from a Marketing perspective. NA teams like EG know that players like Stephano, Thorzain, etc are fantastic and are a great part of the team. But for a long time the most popular players on the team were Idra and Incontrol. Not just because of their play, but they were also from North America. And maybe it sounds dumb but there's definitely nationalistic tendencies inherent to being a fan. Fans from the USA often (not always) want a player from the USA that they can support and root for. Idra was a great example for a long time, and probably still is, as he's still one of the most popular players. And of course, those players aren't only popular because they're from the US, but it certainly doesn't hurt. I think the actual monetary cost could really be kept quite low - and as was mentioned, the existence of an Academy team can really help both with marketing and sponsorship. I know I didn't really care for Complexity for a long time, but the fact that they're really made an academy setting happen has truly altered my opinion. I'm probably not the only one. Keeping an eye out for up and comers is great, but everybody wants the home town boy (or girl) to root for. The most popular player on the Yankees has always been Jeter, even when A-Rod was a better player. The reason is he was developed by the Yankees, and the fans truly felt like they had a personal stake in his play. | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
The reason minor leagues work is because it sacrifices short term gains in favor of long term potential. Big league teams invest their resources into developing talent and the payoff is that the player, unless he is traded, has to spend his first 6 years in the big leagues with that team for a salary considerably lower than what he would command on the free agent market. These are the rules established by the MLB and if somebody doesn't like it he can go back to bagging groceries. The foreign scene has no such governing body, the scene is more like a bunch of mercenaries playing for the highest bidder. If you're a good prospect looking to make a splash then why join, say, EG or Liquid's minor league team when their track record at developing foreign prospects is inconsistent at best. If the system is like the MLB's then it also means you'll be contractually obligated to play below your market worth for some time. In a scene where the average career only lasts a couple years and has a peak of maybe 6 months this is financially unsound. On the flipside if minor league players are not bound by a contract then EG and Liquid has zero incentive to develop new players as they could just up and walk away, leaving another team to reap the benefits. The other possible benefit for players is exposure, but the nature of SC2 makes this a fairly trivial benefit. It's true that big name teams get more viewers and in some cases like IPTL access to more teamleagues. However SC2 is an individual game and individual league success is weighted exponentially more than teamleague. It doesn't matter what team you are on, all it takes is a single great open bracket run (think Scarlett) or a bunch of online tourney wins and you'll be a significant name in the scene. | ||
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coldSnaH
50 Posts
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:39 Zennith wrote: Think of it from a Marketing perspective. NA teams like EG know that players like Stephano, Thorzain, etc are fantastic and are a great part of the team. But for a long time the most popular players on the team were Idra and Incontrol. Not just because of their play, but they were also from North America. And maybe it sounds dumb but there's definitely nationalistic tendencies inherent to being a fan. Fans from the USA often (not always) want a player from the USA that they can support and root for. Idra was a great example for a long time, and probably still is, as he's still one of the most popular players. And of course, those players aren't only popular because they're from the US, but it certainly doesn't hurt. I think the actual monetary cost could really be kept quite low - and as was mentioned, the existence of an Academy team can really help both with marketing and sponsorship. I know I didn't really care for Complexity for a long time, but the fact that they're really made an academy setting happen has truly altered my opinion. I'm probably not the only one. Keeping an eye out for up and comers is great, but everybody wants the home town boy (or girl) to root for. The most popular player on the Yankees has always been Jeter, even when A-Rod was a better player. The reason is he was developed by the Yankees, and the fans truly felt like they had a personal stake in his play. Marketing perspective? People don't care about players that either don't win or aren't entertaining. Getting a bunch of unknown players who aren't gonna win a tournament for awhile isn't good marketing. And there is such a slim chance that one of those players becomes a star. And sure, being American helps Idra and iNcontroL for their fanbase. But not much. What helps is their skill and personality. Thats why they are rockstars in the sc2 world. And I truly think you are underestimating the cost of running this. Paying the people to run it, paying the players a small salary, paying the players way to tournaments, any time spent marketing the players. It adds up and it adds up quickly. Right now there are smaller teams out there filling this role. And really, the Jeter to A-Rod comparison? Jeter was the NY darling that helped them win how many World Series before A-Rod even stepped foot in NY? Thats not a fair comparison at all. Jeter is loved in NY because of all the success he has had. Any player that is a key piece in winning multiple titles is going to be beloved by the fans. Oh and Jeter is a much more likable guy too. In the end, player base too small, teams limited by money, smaller teams exist filling the role, and the major leagues still need too much work. Down the road, yeah this would be great. I've thought about it myself quite a bit. Its just not time right now. | ||
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Hoon
Brazil891 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 13:58 red4ce wrote: The other possible benefit for players is exposure, but the nature of SC2 makes this a fairly trivial benefit. It's true that big name teams get more viewers and in some cases like IPTL access to more teamleagues. However SC2 is an individual game and individual league success is weighted exponentially more than teamleague. It doesn't matter what team you are on, all it takes is a single great open bracket run (think Scarlett) or a bunch of online tourney wins and you'll be a significant name in the scene. This part I definitely disagree with. Exposure is huge - Masa is suddenly a name because he joined Root. Stream numbers are really, really important and help people make money who aren't commanding large salaries (or even any salary). Having that exposure, that little Liquid or EG tag before name could really help sustain these players - perhaps to the point where the teams wouldn't have to pay the minor leaguers a salary at all. Hell, Kespa and Korean teams certainly don't play their B-teamers. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
There's no need for that in esports. Pros aren't paid much and even players as good as MMA have "slavery contracts". | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On November 02 2012 14:17 Zennith wrote: This part I definitely disagree with. Exposure is huge - Masa is suddenly a name because he joined Root. Stream numbers are really, really important and help people make money who aren't commanding large salaries (or even any salary). Having that exposure, that little Liquid or EG tag before name could really help sustain these players - perhaps to the point where the teams wouldn't have to pay the minor leaguers a salary at all. Hell, Kespa and Korean teams certainly don't play their B-teamers. MaSa isn't a name because he's on Root, it's because he's been killing it in his NASL Group, starting with a victory over aLive, with a nailbiting last game and continuing to dismantle opponents with style in team leagues as well. You overestimate how much a team tag can help a player get recognition. Compare SeoHyeon and Stardust on LighT. Both unfeatured streamers, and yet hundreds of people flock to Stardust's stream, not because he's on LighT, but because of his high skill level, while most people barely glance at SeoHyeon's stream, despite both being capable of GM KR play. (Though this example is quite unfair comparison because Stardust did have some hype as a former Ace player M18M). | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:56 Zennith wrote: Maybe so, but there's also a lot more prestige/potential when you're playing for a team like EG or Col than there is playing for mostly amateur team (which I have nothing against - hell, I manage an amateur NA team myself). The benefits of being on a team like EG or Col (even if it is the B team) would absolutely outweigh what meager salary they could expect from any team before they've gotten big results. That scene is absolutely important, and it's actually pretty vibrant - despite how complex and in flux the lower level - mid-tier scene is. But that's still not what I refer to. I'm referring to a real minor league, ala the BW Korean B-Teams. The best players who haven't yet become real professional players. There aren't THAT many of them, but they definitely exist. And that's the talent we really need to develop in order to stand on par with the EU and KR scenes. The problem from my perspective on that is that the european scene IS the tier 2 scene. And if you look SOLELY at korea I guess you can say code a is "minor" to gsl, but the truth is code a is still above the entirety of the foreign scene. To me it's an issue of depth, which again is something that only time and development (the whole scene) are going to create. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
But really, I don't think theres any money in it for these teams unless they had a reason to be sponsored, and I don't see why those big sponsors wouldn't rather sponsor a big name team instead. Not enough money in esports. It'd work if the talent had a place to go, but if they're remotely good a big team swoops in to pick them up, then dies when that player eventually bails to make the big bucks. Not every time, but mostly. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
In the current state of esports, investing in no-name players is basically throwing your money away, and that's really not where the precious few esports dollars that are available should be spent. | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
CSL Go4SC2 cup EU/NA Plahem daily ZOTAC cup ... | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 02 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote: Minor leagues: CSL Go4SC2 cup EU/NA Plahem daily ZOTAC cup ... The cups are literally always won by players like Revival and Hyun. I literally mention that in my first post. CSL is only for college students. It's a great thing, but it definitely isn't a minor leagues in the way I describe. Reading the first post would probably help you form a better response. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On November 03 2012 00:51 VirgilSC2 wrote: Having read this entire thread, especially the comments by the OP leads me to believe you are incredibly naive about how eSports actually works. Potentially. I run a competitive team where we have literally pretty much only the effort we put in, and not much in the way of money. We've still been around for quite a while, and have improved consistently along the way. Obviously a team of mid-high masters players on the NA server is hardly the same thing, but if I'm considered naive because I'm optimistic and believe that teams could really do so much more than they do now if they just decided that they wanted to put in the time and effort it would take to truly develop the NA scene, well, maybe I am. I can live with that. Still doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong. | ||
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