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Okay, so first I want to mention – this thread is sort of piggybacking off of the Team Academies/Communities thread, which really isn't getting as much attention as it deserves. My premise, though, is a bit different. In that thread there's talk about creating community level teams that allow for general public engagement and association with the professional North American teams and beyond. This is a great idea, and the whole discussion got me thinking about the state of the North American professional scene, and how it does seem true that the players and teams here are (in general) lagging behind our European and Korean counterparts. And I asked myself:
Where are the Minor Leagues?
Let me be clear – when I say Minor Leagues, I'm referring to a system like that which exists in Major League Baseball (among many other competitive sports around the world). The idea being that the professional level teams (which in this case would be teams like Complexity, EG, Team Liquid, Fnatic, Quantic, Root, etc) have a system of minor league teams where they take players who they believe have a lot of potential and talent and develop them over the course of time into professional level players who are then called up to the Major League team. This is not talking about community level teams, this isn't talking about the mid-tier masters level players on the server. This sort of system would exist for those who are almost there – those who are extremely strong players who may just need a bit more seasoning, a bit more time, or a bit more in the way of opportunities.
The Complexity Academy
The Complexity Academy is a great example of a model that can work – based on what I've seen (I'm not at all associated or involved with it in any way), Complexity offers players a serious chance – in house tournaments, participation in team wars, and serious team practice – all with the mindset that if the players improve and perform well enough, they can move up to the main professional team and become a part of the roster. The rewards are significant - new equipment, exposure, and the chance to potentially make a living as a pro player. And the system clearly benefits Complexity as well. They have a serious systematic way of developing players and finding new up and coming talent. They help develop the NA scene into something that might be able to compete internationally – and hell, they look good for helping the esports scene develop.
The Costs
Of course, there's the issue of cost. Again, I don't know Complexity, but it seems like the greatest barrier to entry in this sort of enterprise is simply time itself. There's very little cost associated with a system like this – the monetary investment need not be high. It simply requires a commitment to what is essentially research and development. Maybe there's more than I'm thinking of right now – but the cost here seems to be simply one that could be counted in man-hours, not dollars. There are other risks as well – players who are a part of a minor league system to represent the team, and if they make mistakes (of any kind, really) it could reflect poorly on the team at large. But that risk is one that feels like it could be mitigated by strong management and well worded contracts.
Going Forward
So, if we take this all as at least somewhat true, the question becomes why this isn't a popular model for North American teams (or really foreign teams in general). There are some communities out there (like TDS for FXO now that they acquired LgN), but there's a general dearth of B-Teams and Minor League systems among foreign teams. As far as I know, EG doesn't have one, Liquid doesn't have one, Quantic doesn't have one. Why not? What is there to lose?
While talking with Kifire (who posted a bunch in the Academies thread) he made this excellent point:
Professional sports and esports teams look for the exact same things. But professional sports grow their players, while esports teams expect them to appear from nowhere.
So why don't we stop expecting our players to just appear? There are a number of really strong players who are able to compete at high levels and yet are unable to break through the glass ceiling. Playhems and Zotac cups are dominated by Koreans like Hyun and Revival – not being able to beat top tier Koreans should hardly prevent players from gaining some notice and respect.
Hell, if the development of this scene truly came to fruition, there could even be a minor league circuit, in which the teams from EG, Col Academy, Quantic, and others could compete in a Minor League Team league – it'd be great from a spectator's point of view: we would be tuning in to see the players that might be become the next Scarlett, the next Masa, the next Suppy, etc. It feels like there's a market here, and one that everyone would truly benefit from.
So why don't these teams give it a try? There's a lot of press and publicity and positive feeling to be gained, and so very little to lose.
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Well the thing is esports is simply not big enough. For example the LA dodgers support the ABQ Isotopes. But the dodgers make a ton of money, and they have an incentive to support the Isotopes because if someone gets hurt they have the minior league team where they can pull players in to fill that slot. SC 2 is not really a team game, If HuK can't perform at a tournament due to an injury, EG doesn't replace him like that because HuK isn't critical to the overall team success. Basically there is no point in having a minior league because there is no money for that.
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On November 02 2012 09:17 HeeroFX wrote:
Well the thing is esports is simply not big enough. For example the LA dodgers support the ABQ Isotopes. But the dodgers make a ton of money, and they have an incentive to support the Isotopes because if someone gets hurt they have the minior league team where they can pull players in to fill that slot. SC 2 is not really a team game, If HuK can't perform at a tournament due to an injury, EG doesn't replace him like that because HuK isn't critical to the overall team success. Basically there is no point in having a minior league because there is no money for that.
Well, to be fair, there are team leagues. Also, shouldn't teams want the up and coming stars to come up and star with them? It would be in everyone's best interest to have players grow and develop with those teams, Goswser is a perfect example of the potential a system like this would have.
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I have thought about this a lot recently. In Korea they seem to grow talent, talent searches or simply picking up relative no names, then working with them in a team house to develop them over a long period of time. In the west you need to do that yourself.
Time and effort is of course the major issue. Complexity has a manager that is in charge of the academy, i'm not sure if he is full time etc, but it takes effort to get something like this to work. On top of that, the players are unlikely to simply become very good by themselves, so you need to work with them, whether by working on practice schedules, or organising practice sessions to make sure the players are moving in the right direction. This again takes lots of time.
I think it's something to look into for sure, but it does takes lots of time from someone that is very passionate about making a project like this work, which is hard to find.
On the topic of the leagues, I would love for this to happen, a semi-pro league (then you get into the argument of what makes a pro) for players to make a name for themselves and get potentially talent scouted. Two problems can be seen. One is who is going to make the league and put the money and time into it, the second is who will watch? There are already a few leagues such as ISTL based around building semi-pro players and teams, but the fact they deal in semi-pro's their viewers are considerably lower than most other leagues
For this to work, you need to somehow get fans interested in the unknown players
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perhaps bigger teams should just absorb the amateur teams. The players don't cost anything. You just need to find someone to manage them.
I think the greatest barrier for teams and why they don't invest in academies is because of focus. Teams are so dependent to win big tournaments and when they don't, they take their toll mentally. They don't want to have extra players/goals to worry about. The A team is already barely hanging on (performance wise) so anymore parts to the team is just more problems.
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On November 02 2012 09:28 Tidus Mino wrote:
For this to work, you need to somehow get fans interested in the unknown players
Absolutely, absolutely. But one could argue that they would be MUCH more interested if the players are from EG, Liquid, Quantic, etc, as opposed to being from random teams nobody has heard of.
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On November 02 2012 09:31 Northern_iight wrote:
perhaps bigger teams should just absorb the amateur teams. The players don't cost anything. You just need to find someone to manage them.
I think the greatest barrier for teams and why they don't invest in academies is because of focus. Teams are so dependent to win big tournaments and when they don't, they take their toll mentally. They don't want to have extra players/goals to worry about. The A team is already barely hanging on (performance wise) so anymore parts to the team is just more problems.
I would manage them for free if they give the opportunity
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I feel terrible saying this, but aren't foreign teams the little leagues?
I mean... most Korean teams just stamp out foreign teams with a few small exceptions... from foreign teams with Koreans on them.
So there. I said it. GSTL is the Major League. MCSL, NASTL, and IPTL are minor leagues because they generally have lower caliber games, generally have less thought behind player lineups, and often have server lag.
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On November 02 2012 09:41 JakeKorste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 09:31 Northern_iight wrote:
perhaps bigger teams should just absorb the amateur teams. The players don't cost anything. You just need to find someone to manage them.
I think the greatest barrier for teams and why they don't invest in academies is because of focus. Teams are so dependent to win big tournaments and when they don't, they take their toll mentally. They don't want to have extra players/goals to worry about. The A team is already barely hanging on (performance wise) so anymore parts to the team is just more problems. I would manage them for free if they give the opportunity
And I feel like you're probably not the only one.
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I don't see how giving less known players more exposure will benefit anything.
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On November 02 2012 09:42 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I feel terrible saying this, but aren't foreign teams the little leagues?
I mean... most Korean teams just stamp out foreign teams with a few small exceptions... from foreign teams with Koreans on them.
So there. I said it. GSTL is the Major League. MCSL, NASTL, and IPTL are minor leagues because they generally have lower caliber games, generally have less thought behind player lineups, and often have server lag.
The point is partly that if teams had a much more organized system of training and develop players (ala Korean B-teams) then perhaps this wouldn't be the case.
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Hey Zennith. It's up to the clans.... The problem is that we have no method of really communicating to the masses the minor leagues.
A year ago, I was in charge of TDS and The Legion's sc2 division. I ran 2 NASL-style tournaments with $50 in prizes, broken down by league. I can hint that we are now playing that in TDS now, but we are waiting for things to stablize before we move forward with that.
We can't really announce it though, because TL will frown upon us advertising the team and tournament here. And blizzard's forums make me want to punch babies.
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In Warcraft 3, the North American scene was really strong in the way of amateur and "semi-pro" leagues as we called it. There were never less than five of these leagues going on at a time and as a result there were always teams up and coming, and always teams merging to become stronger so they could win more of these leagues.
I was disappointed when this never transferred over to SC2
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Katowice25012 Posts
On November 02 2012 09:10 Zennith wrote:
The Costs
Of course, there's the issue of cost. Again, I don't know Complexity, but it seems like the greatest barrier to entry in this sort of enterprise is simply time itself. There's very little cost associated with a system like this – the monetary investment need not be high. It simply requires a commitment to what is essentially research and development. Maybe there's more than I'm thinking of right now – but the cost here seems to be simply one that could be counted in man-hours, not dollars. There are other risks as well – players who are a part of a minor league system to represent the team, and if they make mistakes (of any kind, really) it could reflect poorly on the team at large. But that risk is one that feels like it could be mitigated by strong management and well worded contracts.
You found the answer here and then reached the opposite conclusion. It may cost very little in salary to the players but man hours are costly, it's hard enough to find a few people who can help coordinate one team, much less two. While it would be nice this just isn't the kind of project that a lot of organizations have the luxury of prioritizing.
Not to mention that the big teams do sign up-and-coming players before their potential is realized. Off the top of my head Suppy, Heart, and HerO were all signed as little known amateurs to huge teams - even TaeJa may fall into that category depending on how you slice it.
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On November 02 2012 09:55 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 09:10 Zennith wrote:
The Costs
Of course, there's the issue of cost. Again, I don't know Complexity, but it seems like the greatest barrier to entry in this sort of enterprise is simply time itself. There's very little cost associated with a system like this – the monetary investment need not be high. It simply requires a commitment to what is essentially research and development. Maybe there's more than I'm thinking of right now – but the cost here seems to be simply one that could be counted in man-hours, not dollars. There are other risks as well – players who are a part of a minor league system to represent the team, and if they make mistakes (of any kind, really) it could reflect poorly on the team at large. But that risk is one that feels like it could be mitigated by strong management and well worded contracts. You found the answer here and then reached the opposite conclusion. It may cost very little in salary to the players but man hours are costly, it's hard enough to find a few people who can help coordinate one team, much less two. While it would be nice this just isn't the kind of project that a lot of organizations have the luxury of prioritizing.
Yeah, absolutely. It would definitely require a significant investment, and man-hours can be hard to find. But as some have posted, there are people who would be interested in getting involved - there are teams and managers who do a great job at the lower levels who would likely work for very little money/for free. This is an obstacle that I feel could be overcome.
Not to mention that the big teams do sign up-and-coming players before their potential is realized. Off the top of my head Suppy, Heart, and HerO were all signed as little known amateurs to huge teams - even TaeJa may fall into that category depending on how you slice it.
Totally. The idea would be to make it more systemic, that's all - with a potentially wider reach.
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On November 02 2012 09:42 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I feel terrible saying this, but aren't foreign teams the little leagues?
I mean... most Korean teams just stamp out foreign teams with a few small exceptions... from foreign teams with Koreans on them.
So there. I said it. GSTL is the Major League. MCSL, NASTL, and IPTL are minor leagues because they generally have lower caliber games, generally have less thought behind player lineups, and often have server lag.
IPTL isn't "minor league", IPTL is exactly what the OP is asking about.
IPTL has a European style promotion and relegation system and runs more than one league. More amateur teams can enter at the lower levels and compete using amateur players.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_Pro_Team_League_Season_1#Information
The main league has half the GSTL teams in it, so it can't be called minor, although some of the other points are valid, but the overall structure is basically the same as European football (and other sport) leagues.
Some of the teams in the lower leagues don't even have Liquipedia pages!
As for the OP, there are also competitions like the CSL, which runs tournaments for college kids in the US/Canada mainly, and they are typically full of amateurs, although it's slightly restricting on who can play, but it's still effectively minor league/amateur as most of these guys are studying full time, and can't devote to playing (except when the odd high level player goes to a college which is participating).
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Money.
That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet.
This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice.
We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up.
In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe?
How we do it:
+ Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports!
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On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports!
Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development.
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On November 02 2012 09:10 Zennith wrote:
Professional sports and esports teams look for the exact same things. But professional sports grow their players, while esports teams expect them to appear from nowhere.
I think that this is still something that also hasn't been addressed - why do we just expect players to appear from nowhere? Why don't we invest in talent at earlier stages? Obviously it takes time, but it's something that's done in the KR scene that has allowed for an explosive growth in talented players. Shouldn't North American teams want the same thing?
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In alot of ways things like NASL were going to be just that. A chance for the not paid salary players to play alot in a good setting.
People demanded something else so we got the koreans etc in.
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On November 02 2012 11:12 Vindicare605 wrote:You should check out the Indie Starcraft Team League. It's a minor league of sorts. www.twitch.tv/impulse
Yeah, and this sort of team league is absolutely great. But at the end of the day, Amateur teams are really hard to make sustainable. And the second the team starts losing players to better organizations or other games, the team usually folds. What we need is something more institutional, something from the highest level organizations. The only way a minor league system will work is if it becomes something that the "Major League" teams organize and run. They just need to see that it is worthwhile, and that the audience/player base is there.
I truly believe that it is.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Right now, in SC2, Players are looking for Teams. Teams have more talent than they can afford to pay (at least pay fairly). There isn't any room for Teams to start investing resources, however minimal, in potential future players.
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On November 02 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Right now, in SC2, Players are looking for Teams. Teams have more talent than they can afford to pay (at least pay fairly). There isn't any room for Teams to start investing resources, however minimal, in potential future players.
I really don't buy that. I just don't. Teams may not have crazy amounts of money, but if Complexity can afford to do it, EG and Team Liquid most certainly could as well.
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There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things.
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On November 02 2012 12:43 robzgod wrote:There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things.
I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are.
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On November 02 2012 12:46 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 12:43 robzgod wrote:There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things. I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are.
I wish it was easy as that, but those players on the cusp of becoming pro (the one's you're talking about) tend to have the worst attitudes, egos and are in a situation where they can't commit to playing full-time because they aren't getting salary. They seem to think that they're at the level where they should be getting a salary, but really aren't. It's the "minor league" delusion where they feel entitled to things they haven't earned, and it's very common within the group you're talking about. I know this because I've worked with them for the last 5 years, which is why it's much more effective to build from the bottom up.
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Indieleague, CSL...how many do you need?
Is the idea that they just aren't getting enough exposure? If that's your complaint then...work to expose them more!
I think clans being implemented will help a bit with this though, and (i know people are impatient and starcraft is the biggest and most grown-up it's ever going to be) but as the scene continues to develop and shift I think minors will start to develop more. Realistically a good chunk of the "major" tournaments are going to get filtered and die out or move down as time passes and there will be a bigger, clearer gap and as the scene grows the lower will get more attention.
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On November 02 2012 12:52 robzgod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 12:46 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 12:43 robzgod wrote:There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things. I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are. I wish it was easy as that, but those players on the cusp of becoming pro (the one's you're talking about) tend to have the worst attitudes, egos and are in a situation where they can't commit to playing full-time because they aren't getting salary. They seem to think that they're at the level where they should be getting a salary, but really aren't. It's the "minor league" delusion where they feel entitled to things they haven't earned, and it's very common within the group you're talking about. I know this because I've dealt with them for the last 5 years, which is why it's much more effective to build from the bottom up.
Maybe so, but there's also a lot more prestige/potential when you're playing for a team like EG or Col than there is playing for mostly amateur team (which I have nothing against - hell, I manage an amateur NA team myself). The benefits of being on a team like EG or Col (even if it is the B team) would absolutely outweigh what meager salary they could expect from any team before they've gotten big results.
Indieleague, CSL...how many do you need?
Is the idea that they just aren't getting enough exposure? If that's your complaint then...work to expose them more!
I think clans being implemented will help a bit with this though, and (i know people are impatient and starcraft is the biggest and most grown-up it's ever going to be) but as the scene continues to develop and shift I think minors will start to develop more. Realistically a good chunk of the "major" tournaments are going to get filtered and die out or move down as time passes and there will be a bigger, clearer gap and as the scene grows the lower will get more attention.
That scene is absolutely important, and it's actually pretty vibrant - despite how complex and in flux the lower level - mid-tier scene is.
But that's still not what I refer to. I'm referring to a real minor league, ala the BW Korean B-Teams. The best players who haven't yet become real professional players. There aren't THAT many of them, but they definitely exist. And that's the talent we really need to develop in order to stand on par with the EU and KR scenes.
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When it comes down to it, minor league players are essentially just Grandmaster players with a slightly more organized group of practice partners and a lot more publicity.
And if you have devoted workers focused on this group, for both training and content management, you're essentially asking teams to be two teams.
Or, conversely, if teams like Liquid and EG are using their existing resources to support these players...why not just call them main members of the team?
Complexity made the decision to create a separate entity for their up and coming potentials, and promote it as an "Academy" for players trying to become full-time pros. It's as much a marketing strategy as it is an actual organization.
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 02 2012 09:42 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I feel terrible saying this, but aren't foreign teams the little leagues?
I mean... most Korean teams just stamp out foreign teams with a few small exceptions... from foreign teams with Koreans on them.
So there. I said it. GSTL is the Major League. MCSL, NASTL, and IPTL are minor leagues because they generally have lower caliber games, generally have less thought behind player lineups, and often have server lag.
I don't agree with that at all.
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Sure up and coming players are always good and all, but why have another organzation for it. EG has a A team and a B team, but it is all EG.
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On November 02 2012 12:56 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 12:52 robzgod wrote:On November 02 2012 12:46 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 12:43 robzgod wrote:There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things. I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are. I wish it was easy as that, but those players on the cusp of becoming pro (the one's you're talking about) tend to have the worst attitudes, egos and are in a situation where they can't commit to playing full-time because they aren't getting salary. They seem to think that they're at the level where they should be getting a salary, but really aren't. It's the "minor league" delusion where they feel entitled to things they haven't earned, and it's very common within the group you're talking about. I know this because I've dealt with them for the last 5 years, which is why it's much more effective to build from the bottom up. Maybe so, but there's also a lot more prestige/potential when you're playing for a team like EG or Col than there is playing for mostly amateur team (which I have nothing against - hell, I manage an amateur NA team myself). The benefits of being on a team like EG or Col (even if it is the B team) would absolutely outweigh what meager salary they could expect from any team before they've gotten big results.
Yeah I agree completely, but those teams don't have money to throw around. They're in the business of buying out top talent, it's just how the ecosystem currently is. I don't agree with it, but there are a lot of factors that play into this. For Example, team branding is a big one. If EG picked up an amateur group of players, their team branding would suffer because those players aren't the core of what EG is "The Yankees of Gaming." -- Quote from their sponsorship deck, lol
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I decided to create a “Minor League Circuit” here locally in SoCal, with basically the ideal that you mention here: to foster and support the growth of up-and-coming local players and talent – to build up the local community of SC players. We’ve held 3 open LANs in the past year, and did this by means of BarCrafts.
The problems really do boil down to time and money, as was previously commented on here. We felt successful in that some of our players were able to be slightly boosted, but even how much I hope and dream for them, and try to support them, they’ve still had a rough go into the Pros. Players like Mystik, STX, Rhythm (Bubbles), and Russano.
One cool side effect was some talent that was able to be boosted a bit more into eSports success by our events, to get some exposure, folks such as FrodaN (love this dude so much, so happy for you bro), Megumi (hostess/caster), Crota (caster/media), RumCake (manager), Shindigs (all-around-eSports BAWS), Alex (Sound guy), Carlton (photographer), and more. And that makes me super proud to know that I created an environment that helped them thrive, to get a bit more exposure.
But while it's nice boosting people into the scene, cost is still an issue -- and getting sponsorships or funding from sponsors is incredibly difficult - as we all know they want ROI or else it makes no sense to give money, and it's very difficult for the "minor leagues" to get the exposure sponsors want to see.
A small note can be made about “eSports Entrepreneurs” too, and how much they don’t want to ‘play nice in the sand box,’ it can be another discussion entirely, but it does play a role in the success or failure of any endeavor in this world, because connections and your team are key. But again, through the filter of this, I was able to meet and work with the amazing people above.
The truth is, I've busted my ass trying to make something like a minor league happen for over a year now, from the league sense not from the team sense, and it is freaking hard. I still wish it would happen, ideally for everyone in the US, but I’ll keep trying with what I can here in SoCal. So jealous of the TeSPA folks, they do an amazing job. 
Edit: This thread inspired me to finally start a TL blog about SoCal's endeavors and journey - so for an expanded version of this post, check out: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=379548
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On November 02 2012 12:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When it comes down to it, minor league players are essentially just Grandmaster players with a slightly more organized group of practice partners and a lot more publicity.
And if you have devoted workers focused on this group, for both training and content management, you're essentially asking teams to be two teams.
Or, conversely, if teams like Liquid and EG are using their existing resources to support these players...why not just call them main members of the team?
Complexity made the decision to create a separate entity for their up and coming potentials, and promote it as an "Academy" for players trying to become full-time pros. It's as much a marketing strategy as it is an actual organization.
But I feel like the Col. Academy is essentially both. It's a great marketing strategy, but it also gives player a chance to prove their stuff, and the entrance to the Academy comes through open tournaments (which aren't common enough, that's my only complaint). They become part of a separate entity that can still allow for progression and eventual promotion to the main team (ala Goswser). That's exactly what a minor league is, and it's both great for marketing and for player development.
At the end of the day, it may not be feasible to have open tournaments in order to become a true member of EG, TL, or Col. That's why the academy exists - to find new talent, nurture it, and eventually promote it to the big time once the player is ready (both in terms of skill and in terms of understanding what it means to truly represent a team/organization).
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On November 02 2012 13:04 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 12:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When it comes down to it, minor league players are essentially just Grandmaster players with a slightly more organized group of practice partners and a lot more publicity.
And if you have devoted workers focused on this group, for both training and content management, you're essentially asking teams to be two teams.
Or, conversely, if teams like Liquid and EG are using their existing resources to support these players...why not just call them main members of the team?
Complexity made the decision to create a separate entity for their up and coming potentials, and promote it as an "Academy" for players trying to become full-time pros. It's as much a marketing strategy as it is an actual organization. But I feel like the Col. Academy is essentially both. It's a great marketing strategy, but it also gives player a chance to prove their stuff, and the entrance to the Academy comes through open tournaments (which aren't common enough, that's my only complaint). They become part of a separate entity that can still allow for progression and eventual promotion to the main team (ala Goswser). That's exactly what a minor league is, and it's both great for marketing and for player development. At the end of the day, it may not be feasible to have open tournaments in order to become a true member of EG, TL, or Col. That's why the academy exists - to find new talent, nurture it, and eventually promote it to the big time once the player is ready (both in terms of skill and in terms of understanding what it means to truly represent a team/organization).
I think you're underestimating the people problem though. Having the right people to run it and participate is the most important part, which I don't think is something that these teams have found yet. We always get asked when we're going to open up our next Aspire program for other games or another for SC2 and it's just about finding the right not only people to run it, but participate as well. It's much more difficult and critical than it seems from the surface.
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If players want to actually compete, they have to be prepared to compete with the best players around the world.
The skill required can't be "grown" by teams. SC is an individual sport. The player has to be pushing himself to improve and be good enough. Unlike actual sports, he doesn't need to have a team to practice with all the time, he doesn't need a full multiman team to play against, and he doesn't even need the coaching. All the tools a player needs to become better are at his disposal, and if that player wants to be a professional, he has to be able to identify his mistakes on his own, figure out what adjustments he needs to make on his own, and be able to maintain a work ethic on his own.
There are players who can manage the above, and therefore play at a high level. Those are the players that teams need to be interested in, as they show they already have the chops and competence to go from a good player, to a player who can place at tournaments.
Those are the players that deserve the support a team can offer. Those players don't need the "help" from a team to improve.
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On November 02 2012 13:09 robzgod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 13:04 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 12:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When it comes down to it, minor league players are essentially just Grandmaster players with a slightly more organized group of practice partners and a lot more publicity.
And if you have devoted workers focused on this group, for both training and content management, you're essentially asking teams to be two teams.
Or, conversely, if teams like Liquid and EG are using their existing resources to support these players...why not just call them main members of the team?
Complexity made the decision to create a separate entity for their up and coming potentials, and promote it as an "Academy" for players trying to become full-time pros. It's as much a marketing strategy as it is an actual organization. But I feel like the Col. Academy is essentially both. It's a great marketing strategy, but it also gives player a chance to prove their stuff, and the entrance to the Academy comes through open tournaments (which aren't common enough, that's my only complaint). They become part of a separate entity that can still allow for progression and eventual promotion to the main team (ala Goswser). That's exactly what a minor league is, and it's both great for marketing and for player development. At the end of the day, it may not be feasible to have open tournaments in order to become a true member of EG, TL, or Col. That's why the academy exists - to find new talent, nurture it, and eventually promote it to the big time once the player is ready (both in terms of skill and in terms of understanding what it means to truly represent a team/organization). I think you're underestimating the people problem though. Having the right people to run it and participate is the most important part, which I don't think is something that these teams have found yet. We always get asked when we're going to open up our next Aspire program for other games or another for SC2 and it's just about finding the right not only people to run it, but participate as well. It's much more difficult and critical than it seems from the surface.
Yeah, this is definitely the case - personnel is always an issue absolutely. But while it takes work, I do feel like there is a clear benefit to this system - and as was stated earlier, if a team like EG put out notice that they were looking for someone to take on a project like this, I'm willing to bet they'd get a lot of applicants.
And for what was mentioned earlier about branding - about EG not wanting to hurt their brand with a bunch of amateurs - THAT's the exact reason for a minor league academy. As long as it is clear that this is not the top pro team, but a group of minor league players who might one day move up, I see no reason why it would hurt EG as a team in terms of marketing or branding. Hell, it might create some goodwill for them in the community.
Nobody makes fun of the Yankees if the Trenton Thunder lose.
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On November 02 2012 13:09 Gamegene wrote:
If players want to actually compete, they have to be prepared to compete with the best players around the world.
The skill required can't be "grown" by teams. SC is an individual sport. The player has to be pushing himself to improve and be good enough. Unlike actual sports, he doesn't need to have a team to practice with all the time, he doesn't need a full multiman team to play against, and he doesn't even need the coaching. All the tools a player needs to become better are at his disposal, and if that player wants to be a professional, he has to be able to identify his mistakes on his own, figure out what adjustments he needs to make on his own, and be able to maintain a work ethic on his own.
There are players who can manage the above, and therefore play at a high level. Those are the players that teams need to be interested in, as they show they already have the chops and competence to go from a good player, to a player who can place at tournaments.
Those are the players that deserve the support a team can offer. Those players don't need the "help" from a team to improve.
And hey, most of/all of this is true. You don't NEED coaching. You don't NEED the team aspect of things to improve, no doubt. That's why I'm not talking about a system like this for mid-masters players. I'm talking about the highest level players who aren't yet professionals. You need players who are willing to put in the time and effort, players who are dedicated and aren't in it for the money.
They may not absolutely need help from a team to improve, but having consistent coaching and practice partners can't be a bad thing for a players improvement - think about how much GSL players thank the players they practice with. They know they need a support structure, even if by themselves they'd already become some of the best players in the world.
Like I said - there aren't a TON of players who fit this criteria who aren't already professional players, but there definitely are some. And that's the scene the NA needs, that's the side of things that needs to grow and improve.
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I understand that you want teams to initiate a reach out for top level yet undiscovered potential really good progamers, but really, the potential loss far outweighs the benefits they could gain for it. Honestly, the paperwork involved, the money needed to invest, and management needed all for the chance to recruit 1 or 2 people with the potential to get really good doesn't sound like an idea many teams would be willing to put effort into, especially since there isn't much money to go around in teams, other than teams like EG. And even with you saying that there are many people who would volunteer and love the opportunity to do this, that steam will burn off quickly if they aren't highly motivated and have some incentives for themselves.
Additionally, like Gamegene said, SCII is an individual game that doesn't require anything other than your computer, the game, and an internet connection. If you have the desire to become a top professional SCII progamer, then it's your job to become one, not any team's responsibility. When you become a person of such material in some team recruiter's eyes, then that is when you should have the chance.
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On November 02 2012 11:39 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Right now, in SC2, Players are looking for Teams. Teams have more talent than they can afford to pay (at least pay fairly). There isn't any room for Teams to start investing resources, however minimal, in potential future players. I really don't buy that. I just don't. Teams may not have crazy amounts of money, but if Complexity can afford to do it, EG and Team Liquid most certainly could as well.
But why? Its not really worth it for big teams.
Honestly its not up to the big teams. Right now there are a ton of smaller teams that fill the void there. There are a ton of tournaments for the players. I think CSL is one of the best for this "minor leagues" idea. MLG's open bracket has been huge in this as well. Suppy and Goswer come to mind of players who made a big run in the open bracket and then got more attention and were picked up.
Right now, the time and money that would be spent of a "minor league" team just isn't worth it for most teams. What Complexity does is awesome. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone. Why should EG spend time and money on a minor league team, when they can just keep their eye out on up and comers (like they did with Suppy) and then also sign Thorzain and Stephano?
We just aren't at the stage where teams can support the minor leagues set up. we gotta secure the major leagues first. There isn't enough of a gap between the two right now even, the player base is small.
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On November 02 2012 13:04 CableStarcraft wrote:I decided to create a “Minor League Circuit” here locally in SoCal, with basically the ideal that you mention here: to foster and support the growth of up-and-coming local players and talent – to build up the local community of SC players. We’ve held 3 open LANs in the past year, and did this by means of BarCrafts. The problems really do boil down to time and money, as was previously commented on here. We felt successful in that some of our players were able to be slightly boosted, but even how much I hope and dream for them, and try to support them, they’ve still had a rough go into the Pros. Players like Mystik, STX, Rhythm (Bubbles), and Russano. One cool side effect was some talent that was able to be boosted a bit more into eSports success by our events, to get some exposure, folks such as FrodaN (love this dude so much, so happy for you bro), Megumi (hostess/caster), Crota (caster/media), RumCake (manager), Shindigs (all-around-eSports BAWS), Alex (Sound guy), Carlton (photographer), and more. And that makes me super proud to know that I created an environment that helped them thrive, to get a bit more exposure. But while it's nice boosting people into the scene, cost is still an issue -- and getting sponsorships or funding from sponsors is incredibly difficult - as we all know they want ROI or else it makes no sense to give money, and it's very difficult for the "minor leagues" to get the exposure sponsors want to see. A small note can be made about “eSports Entrepreneurs” too, and how much they don’t want to ‘play nice in the sand box,’ it can be another discussion entirely, but it does play a role in the success or failure of any endeavor in this world, because connections and your team are key. But again, through the filter of this, I was able to meet and work with the amazing people above. The truth is, I've busted my ass trying to make something like a minor league happen for over a year now, from the league sense not from the team sense, and it is freaking hard. I still wish it would happen, ideally for everyone in the US, but I’ll keep trying with what I can here in SoCal. So jealous of the TeSPA folks, they do an amazing job. Edit: This thread inspired me to finally start a TL blog about SoCal's endeavors and journey - so for an expanded version of this post, check out: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=379548
Dude, this is fantastic stuff, and I'm really glad to read about it, as I had no idea this existed. Cost and Sponsorship is always going to be an issue, but this sort of environment is actually really great and is another way to go about creating the same sort of opportunities for up and coming players, which is really what this whole thing is about.
And hell yeah, I'm sure it's tough. But it's seriously awesome that you're moving forward and still pursuing this to the fullest extent possible.
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On November 02 2012 13:22 Zennith wrote:
Like I said - there aren't a TON of players who fit this criteria who aren't already professional players, but there definitely are some. And that's the scene the NA needs, that's the side of things that needs to grow and improve.
On NA specifically there is probably less than 25 players who do not have teams, who can compete in today's playing field. If we're talking about "competing with other NA players" then yes, there's hundreds of players who might become one of the better NA players out there.
Maybe a year ago, that would have been relevant for teams looking to expand their rosters, but here and now you are expected to compete against Koreans, against foreigners who've won championships, who've made their names known by slaying Koreans, unless you have some other niche entertainment you provide to the audience.
The names you mentioned and some including my own: Illusion MaSa Suppy Trimaster Scarlett'.
They weren't given any recognition because they beat other NA players. They got recognition, team offers and opportunities because they showed that they deserved it, that they were on the same level as other professionals despite not having any *tangible* support, that they were ready to be competitive with not just their peers but the Koreans invading everywhere.
No one is interested anymore in a slightly bigger fish who can beat all the small fry's in his pond. They want to someone who's capable of fighting the world (Korea specifically).
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On November 02 2012 13:28 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 11:39 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Right now, in SC2, Players are looking for Teams. Teams have more talent than they can afford to pay (at least pay fairly). There isn't any room for Teams to start investing resources, however minimal, in potential future players. I really don't buy that. I just don't. Teams may not have crazy amounts of money, but if Complexity can afford to do it, EG and Team Liquid most certainly could as well. Right now, the time and money that would be spent of a "minor league" team just isn't worth it for most teams. What Complexity does is awesome. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone. Why should EG spend time and money on a minor league team, when they can just keep their eye out on up and comers (like they did with Suppy) and then also sign Thorzain and Stephano?
Think of it from a Marketing perspective. NA teams like EG know that players like Stephano, Thorzain, etc are fantastic and are a great part of the team. But for a long time the most popular players on the team were Idra and Incontrol. Not just because of their play, but they were also from North America. And maybe it sounds dumb but there's definitely nationalistic tendencies inherent to being a fan. Fans from the USA often (not always) want a player from the USA that they can support and root for. Idra was a great example for a long time, and probably still is, as he's still one of the most popular players.
And of course, those players aren't only popular because they're from the US, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
I think the actual monetary cost could really be kept quite low - and as was mentioned, the existence of an Academy team can really help both with marketing and sponsorship. I know I didn't really care for Complexity for a long time, but the fact that they're really made an academy setting happen has truly altered my opinion. I'm probably not the only one.
Keeping an eye out for up and comers is great, but everybody wants the home town boy (or girl) to root for. The most popular player on the Yankees has always been Jeter, even when A-Rod was a better player. The reason is he was developed by the Yankees, and the fans truly felt like they had a personal stake in his play.
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I can't see the benefit from the player side. The primary purpose of minor league teams is to develop talent right? Well no foreign team has figured out a formula to consistently churn out top pros. Foreign teams do not have coaches and the players have, compared to the Koreans, undisciplined training schedules in which many of them just ladder anyways. All the top foreign teams are only so because they bought or recruited other top players, with only one or two being developed in-house.
The reason minor leagues work is because it sacrifices short term gains in favor of long term potential. Big league teams invest their resources into developing talent and the payoff is that the player, unless he is traded, has to spend his first 6 years in the big leagues with that team for a salary considerably lower than what he would command on the free agent market. These are the rules established by the MLB and if somebody doesn't like it he can go back to bagging groceries.
The foreign scene has no such governing body, the scene is more like a bunch of mercenaries playing for the highest bidder. If you're a good prospect looking to make a splash then why join, say, EG or Liquid's minor league team when their track record at developing foreign prospects is inconsistent at best. If the system is like the MLB's then it also means you'll be contractually obligated to play below your market worth for some time. In a scene where the average career only lasts a couple years and has a peak of maybe 6 months this is financially unsound. On the flipside if minor league players are not bound by a contract then EG and Liquid has zero incentive to develop new players as they could just up and walk away, leaving another team to reap the benefits.
The other possible benefit for players is exposure, but the nature of SC2 makes this a fairly trivial benefit. It's true that big name teams get more viewers and in some cases like IPTL access to more teamleagues. However SC2 is an individual game and individual league success is weighted exponentially more than teamleague. It doesn't matter what team you are on, all it takes is a single great open bracket run (think Scarlett) or a bunch of online tourney wins and you'll be a significant name in the scene.
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I think the great thing about Starcraft is there is no minor league/college/highschool bs where you have to work the system before going pro. I think if you have the skills you go pro, if you don't you stay mid-high masters (like me lol).
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On November 02 2012 13:39 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 13:28 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 02 2012 11:39 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Right now, in SC2, Players are looking for Teams. Teams have more talent than they can afford to pay (at least pay fairly). There isn't any room for Teams to start investing resources, however minimal, in potential future players. I really don't buy that. I just don't. Teams may not have crazy amounts of money, but if Complexity can afford to do it, EG and Team Liquid most certainly could as well. Right now, the time and money that would be spent of a "minor league" team just isn't worth it for most teams. What Complexity does is awesome. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone. Why should EG spend time and money on a minor league team, when they can just keep their eye out on up and comers (like they did with Suppy) and then also sign Thorzain and Stephano? Think of it from a Marketing perspective. NA teams like EG know that players like Stephano, Thorzain, etc are fantastic and are a great part of the team. But for a long time the most popular players on the team were Idra and Incontrol. Not just because of their play, but they were also from North America. And maybe it sounds dumb but there's definitely nationalistic tendencies inherent to being a fan. Fans from the USA often (not always) want a player from the USA that they can support and root for. Idra was a great example for a long time, and probably still is, as he's still one of the most popular players. And of course, those players aren't only popular because they're from the US, but it certainly doesn't hurt. I think the actual monetary cost could really be kept quite low - and as was mentioned, the existence of an Academy team can really help both with marketing and sponsorship. I know I didn't really care for Complexity for a long time, but the fact that they're really made an academy setting happen has truly altered my opinion. I'm probably not the only one. Keeping an eye out for up and comers is great, but everybody wants the home town boy (or girl) to root for. The most popular player on the Yankees has always been Jeter, even when A-Rod was a better player. The reason is he was developed by the Yankees, and the fans truly felt like they had a personal stake in his play.
Marketing perspective? People don't care about players that either don't win or aren't entertaining. Getting a bunch of unknown players who aren't gonna win a tournament for awhile isn't good marketing. And there is such a slim chance that one of those players becomes a star.
And sure, being American helps Idra and iNcontroL for their fanbase. But not much. What helps is their skill and personality. Thats why they are rockstars in the sc2 world.
And I truly think you are underestimating the cost of running this. Paying the people to run it, paying the players a small salary, paying the players way to tournaments, any time spent marketing the players. It adds up and it adds up quickly. Right now there are smaller teams out there filling this role.
And really, the Jeter to A-Rod comparison? Jeter was the NY darling that helped them win how many World Series before A-Rod even stepped foot in NY? Thats not a fair comparison at all. Jeter is loved in NY because of all the success he has had. Any player that is a key piece in winning multiple titles is going to be beloved by the fans. Oh and Jeter is a much more likable guy too.
In the end, player base too small, teams limited by money, smaller teams exist filling the role, and the major leagues still need too much work. Down the road, yeah this would be great. I've thought about it myself quite a bit. Its just not time right now.
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If you knew a lot about them, they wouldn't be minor.
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On November 02 2012 13:58 red4ce wrote:
The other possible benefit for players is exposure, but the nature of SC2 makes this a fairly trivial benefit. It's true that big name teams get more viewers and in some cases like IPTL access to more teamleagues. However SC2 is an individual game and individual league success is weighted exponentially more than teamleague. It doesn't matter what team you are on, all it takes is a single great open bracket run (think Scarlett) or a bunch of online tourney wins and you'll be a significant name in the scene.
This part I definitely disagree with. Exposure is huge - Masa is suddenly a name because he joined Root. Stream numbers are really, really important and help people make money who aren't commanding large salaries (or even any salary). Having that exposure, that little Liquid or EG tag before name could really help sustain these players - perhaps to the point where the teams wouldn't have to pay the minor leaguers a salary at all.
Hell, Kespa and Korean teams certainly don't play their B-teamers.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
You guys all have it wrong. The only reason why you want to develop your own talent is because you can lock them up into slavery contracts for a limited amount of time.
There's no need for that in esports. Pros aren't paid much and even players as good as MMA have "slavery contracts".
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On November 02 2012 14:17 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 13:58 red4ce wrote:
The other possible benefit for players is exposure, but the nature of SC2 makes this a fairly trivial benefit. It's true that big name teams get more viewers and in some cases like IPTL access to more teamleagues. However SC2 is an individual game and individual league success is weighted exponentially more than teamleague. It doesn't matter what team you are on, all it takes is a single great open bracket run (think Scarlett) or a bunch of online tourney wins and you'll be a significant name in the scene. This part I definitely disagree with. Exposure is huge - Masa is suddenly a name because he joined Root. Stream numbers are really, really important and help people make money who aren't commanding large salaries (or even any salary). Having that exposure, that little Liquid or EG tag before name could really help sustain these players - perhaps to the point where the teams wouldn't have to pay the minor leaguers a salary at all. Hell, Kespa and Korean teams certainly don't play their B-teamers.
MaSa isn't a name because he's on Root, it's because he's been killing it in his NASL Group, starting with a victory over aLive, with a nailbiting last game and continuing to dismantle opponents with style in team leagues as well.
You overestimate how much a team tag can help a player get recognition. Compare SeoHyeon and Stardust on LighT. Both unfeatured streamers, and yet hundreds of people flock to Stardust's stream, not because he's on LighT, but because of his high skill level, while most people barely glance at SeoHyeon's stream, despite both being capable of GM KR play. (Though this example is quite unfair comparison because Stardust did have some hype as a former Ace player M18M).
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On November 02 2012 12:56 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 12:52 robzgod wrote:On November 02 2012 12:46 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 12:43 robzgod wrote:There are actually quite a few amateur teams with aspirational programs and leagues that support them, they just don't get the visibility that they should. They're out there, trust me, and they're doing great things. I'm sure they are doing great things - and yes, I know about vVv and LgN (now FXO's) Academy teams. These are certainly useful things. But the level of play on these teams is a lot lower than what I'm talking about (no offense meant. If you look at the rosters, the highest level players are mid-masters at best). When I say minor leagues, I mean minor leagues in the way baseball has a Minor League organization. They're still professional players, and they're still some of the best in the world - they're just not quite ready yet to play against the very top tier. If EG, Quantic, Liquid, etc, had minor league teams, they'd still be among the best players in NA, much like many of the Col. Academy players are. I wish it was easy as that, but those players on the cusp of becoming pro (the one's you're talking about) tend to have the worst attitudes, egos and are in a situation where they can't commit to playing full-time because they aren't getting salary. They seem to think that they're at the level where they should be getting a salary, but really aren't. It's the "minor league" delusion where they feel entitled to things they haven't earned, and it's very common within the group you're talking about. I know this because I've dealt with them for the last 5 years, which is why it's much more effective to build from the bottom up. Maybe so, but there's also a lot more prestige/potential when you're playing for a team like EG or Col than there is playing for mostly amateur team (which I have nothing against - hell, I manage an amateur NA team myself). The benefits of being on a team like EG or Col (even if it is the B team) would absolutely outweigh what meager salary they could expect from any team before they've gotten big results. Show nested quote +Indieleague, CSL...how many do you need?
Is the idea that they just aren't getting enough exposure? If that's your complaint then...work to expose them more!
I think clans being implemented will help a bit with this though, and (i know people are impatient and starcraft is the biggest and most grown-up it's ever going to be) but as the scene continues to develop and shift I think minors will start to develop more. Realistically a good chunk of the "major" tournaments are going to get filtered and die out or move down as time passes and there will be a bigger, clearer gap and as the scene grows the lower will get more attention. That scene is absolutely important, and it's actually pretty vibrant - despite how complex and in flux the lower level - mid-tier scene is. But that's still not what I refer to. I'm referring to a real minor league, ala the BW Korean B-Teams. The best players who haven't yet become real professional players. There aren't THAT many of them, but they definitely exist. And that's the talent we really need to develop in order to stand on par with the EU and KR scenes.
The problem from my perspective on that is that the european scene IS the tier 2 scene. And if you look SOLELY at korea I guess you can say code a is "minor" to gsl, but the truth is code a is still above the entirety of the foreign scene.
To me it's an issue of depth, which again is something that only time and development (the whole scene) are going to create.
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Of course there are minor league teams in Korea, they're zenex (rip) and TSL.
But really, I don't think theres any money in it for these teams unless they had a reason to be sponsored, and I don't see why those big sponsors wouldn't rather sponsor a big name team instead. Not enough money in esports. It'd work if the talent had a place to go, but if they're remotely good a big team swoops in to pick them up, then dies when that player eventually bails to make the big bucks. Not every time, but mostly.
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Do you think back in 1869 when the MLB was founded they had a mature minor league system? No of course they didn't. In fact the organized baseball scene back then was very similar to how esports is now - several fragmented leagues supported by passionate players and fans and not a whole lot of financial gain to be had. Creating a mature development system is an organic process that happens over years and decades (even centuries), not simply something that can be conjured up at the drop of a hat.
In the current state of esports, investing in no-name players is basically throwing your money away, and that's really not where the precious few esports dollars that are available should be spent.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
The game has a ladder system already, they can play against "pros" via ladder. There's plenty of tournaments that can develop a rising star. I don't really see a need for a minor league.
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Minor leagues:
CSL
Go4SC2 cup
EU/NA Plahem daily
ZOTAC cup
...
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On November 02 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:
Minor leagues:
CSL
Go4SC2 cup
EU/NA Plahem daily
ZOTAC cup
...
The cups are literally always won by players like Revival and Hyun. I literally mention that in my first post.
CSL is only for college students. It's a great thing, but it definitely isn't a minor leagues in the way I describe. Reading the first post would probably help you form a better response.
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Having read this entire thread, especially the comments by the OP leads me to believe you are incredibly naive about how eSports actually works.
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On November 03 2012 00:51 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Having read this entire thread, especially the comments by the OP leads me to believe you are incredibly naive about how eSports actually works.
Potentially. I run a competitive team where we have literally pretty much only the effort we put in, and not much in the way of money. We've still been around for quite a while, and have improved consistently along the way. Obviously a team of mid-high masters players on the NA server is hardly the same thing, but if I'm considered naive because I'm optimistic and believe that teams could really do so much more than they do now if they just decided that they wanted to put in the time and effort it would take to truly develop the NA scene, well, maybe I am.
I can live with that.
Still doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong.
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Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team.
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On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team.
And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players.
One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing.
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On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing.
You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash?
I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything 
The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities.
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On November 03 2012 01:25 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing. You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash? I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities.
Yeah, absolutely. I would never stand in the way of players moving up - it's only a good thing for them. But the problem is that the constant growth and destruction of middle of the road teams (which often happens regardless of loyalty - there are just things that teams like quantic can offer that most NA teams can not) is actually not sustainable for the long term. Wouldn't institutional organizations tied to the major teams be more likely to be maintained?
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On November 03 2012 01:53 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:25 chadissilent wrote:On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing. You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash? I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities. Yeah, absolutely. I would never stand in the way of players moving up - it's only a good thing for them. But the problem is that the constant growth and destruction of middle of the road teams (which often happens regardless of loyalty - there are just things that teams like quantic can offer that most NA teams can not) is actually not sustainable for the long term. Wouldn't institutional organizations tied to the major teams be more likely to be maintained?
Yes, but that requires both time AND money. Why invest these if someone else can do it for you? If I make $80/hour at work, would I spend an hour to do my own oil change or have someone else do it for me? It's simple economics, there is no reason for a top tier team to use their (sometimes) limited resources when someone else can do it for them.
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On November 03 2012 01:59 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:53 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:25 chadissilent wrote:On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing. You mean how vile picked up State and check-six picked up Aquanda and WinteR, all from tQ? How a top European team made Mook a massive offer after he all killed them? How check-six picked up Mercy and Panther from Clash? I have plenty of experience in these situations, I have been involved in recruiting/developing players for many of the stronger tier 2 teams of their time. I don't need to imagine anything The larger teams don't care if the smaller teams die. I don't blame them and I don't blame the players for taking these offers. New "minor" teams pop up all the time and there are plenty of people willing to put in the time managing these teams to develop the players. Unfortunately for you, this is just time the larger teams don't have to invest since they have the one thing you don't: money. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a larger team made offers to 2 of the players on my team in 4 months, assuming their progression remains linear, and I wouldn't blame either party for accepting the contract. The only way you can hold onto these players is forging deep connections with them and breeding loyalty. If you have a great team atmosphere that resembles one of a family, players want to stay and other players want to join. Once you develop a strong team and these players remain loyal, sponsors come and the players are then compensated. This is, of course, assuming your management team has good business sense, education, and strong leadership qualities. Yeah, absolutely. I would never stand in the way of players moving up - it's only a good thing for them. But the problem is that the constant growth and destruction of middle of the road teams (which often happens regardless of loyalty - there are just things that teams like quantic can offer that most NA teams can not) is actually not sustainable for the long term. Wouldn't institutional organizations tied to the major teams be more likely to be maintained? Yes, but that requires both time AND money. Why invest these if someone else can do it for you? If I make $80/hour at work, would I spend an hour to do my own oil change or have someone else do it for me? It's simple economics, there is no reason for a top tier team to use their (sometimes) limited resources when someone else can do it for them.
Because hopefully, if they invest in it themselves, maybe they'll be better at it, and they can develop north american players more consistently. The only reason to do it would be if you think you can do it better and you can get more in the long run. Maybe you're right, maybe teams aren't there yet. But I really do feel like in the long run, the healthiest thing for the scene would be the major teams taking a real interest in the development of players.
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The money isn't there for the teams to do this. Maybe in LoL, but not SC2. It costs money to give the players incentive, to recruit them, to hire good, competent staff. With more players comes more backend staff ranging from managers to marketing/promotions people to graphic designers. You can't just take on more players and expect existing staff to work twice as hard for no tangible benefit.
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On November 03 2012 01:12 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 01:10 chadissilent wrote:
Smaller teams basically are the minor leagues. State went from tQ to vile (Quantic) once he got a name, Suppy went from check-six to EG, illusion went from Revoki to vile and had other large offers from Tier 1 teams, MoOk from Clash had several offers of $600+/month from larger "Tier 1" teams before he went to the military, etc. if you were a star player on a B team and someone like Liquid, EG or dignitas approached you with an offer, would you turn it down? This is why large teams don't need a B team or academy team, they can just pick up players from smaller teams. The only reason a team would establish a B team is to have the players' rights once they do break out. coLSasquatch is a perfect example of this. I saw the potential in him after cvg disbanded and wanted to pick him up for Clash. Our owner declined, and shortly after he won the coL Academy tournament and chose to join it. 6 months later, he explodes onto the scene at MLG and his coL academy contract allowed him to be transferred to the main team. And the scenario you describe with Sasquatch has been great for both players. One of the issues with the way smaller teams work is that often when their best players are poached by big teams, they receive no compensation and often end up disbanding. It's happened a lot. This would also be a way to potentially avoid situations like that. Imagine you've spent a year or more putting together a team of really high level players, only to see it fall apart when the big boys swoop in and take a few of your best players, and you're left with nothing.
I also run a team, My Intent on the North American server. We've had some of our most successful players join other teams - but that's how it goes. Teams that are disbanding after losing talent are soft. You're going to hit speedbumps when you're trying to accomplish something, welcome to everything in life ever.
The last thing that premier teams want is a bloated roster. Quality over quantity. There's also the issue of player behaviour. Less to worry about with less players on the roster. All it takes is one misplaced comment from one player to cause a whole lot of headaches.
For the vast majority of teams, it doesn't make any sense at all to make an academy. It's up to the Minor teams to have arrangements that don't leave them with nothing when they lose their players to people who can afford them.
That's the ecosystem - top players going to organizations that can pay top dollar is best for everyone in the end.
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Like there is not enough content already. There are no minor leagues because most likely there wouldnt be much viewers. And who would do them without any return?
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On November 03 2012 02:26 NightOfTheDead wrote:
Like there is not enough content already. There are no minor leagues because most likely there wouldnt be much viewers. And who would do them without any return?
Again, this isn't really about content. It's about making long-term investments into the North American scene, sort of in the way Korean teams have done to much success.
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On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development.
Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic.
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On November 03 2012 05:12 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development. Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic.
Oh yeah, 20+ players per team would be absurd. I'm talking 3 - 5. If it's not realistic, how is it that Complexity is always doing it?
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On November 03 2012 05:32 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 05:12 ishyishy wrote:On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development. Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic. Oh yeah, 20+ players per team would be absurd. I'm talking 3 - 5. If it's not realistic, how is it that Complexity is always doing it?
Ok, and how many times have we heard soemthing good coming out of complexity? I barely know who they are lol. In fact, the only reason i have minimal interest in them at all is because everyone is always talking about this apparent rivalry with eg, which i also dont understand lol.
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On November 03 2012 05:37 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 05:32 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 05:12 ishyishy wrote:On November 02 2012 10:08 Zennith wrote:On November 02 2012 10:03 ExPresident wrote:Money. That stuff all costs money and time and unfortunately the scene isn't yet to the point it can sustain that imo. As others have said SCII is not really a team sport, and while we do have large team leagues, its individuals earning the results in them. I think someday we could see a more organized system revolving around "majors" and "minors" but we aren't there yet. This is basically the same discussion going on here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378974 in regards to promoting lower league play through community groups on teams. The bottom line is a team has to see true benefits out of the time and money it takes to host prepare these players. I think it is possible, but I also think some players who current get paid, even if its a small amount, might need to bite the bullet and realize they aren't good enough to get paid and just hope to get on a team that will give them an opportunity to get better practice. We just need a more organized tournament/league "NFL style" system if we could use that to show these up and coming players. Right now its like you see guys winning some off the wall Zeek tournaments but that doesn't mean anything to say a more organized community tournament or established tournament with more well known players. There's also so many tournaments its hard to see them coming up. In regards to helping those lower level players build up, it is up to the teams to create environments for that and a community to recognize it. In that linked above thread this is how I said my team does it (adding that Im just an amateur who can't pay players and offers no contracts, but I try and work hard). Bottom line is, we'll get there eventually, we just aren't there yet. To many chiefs maybe? How we do it: + Show Spoiler +Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain. At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group. On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site. What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well. At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here. long live e-sports! Again, I'm not referring to community teams. The minor leagues I'm talking about would still be absolutely top tier players - just players on the verge of becoming great - not mid-masters players. I really don't think this is something amateur teams can really make happen - I manage one myself. I think this is something that has to come from the top tier teams. They have to want to invest in the scene and in real player development. Sorry, but it just isnt realistic for everyone. Teams like liquid and EG dont need a B-team to make money and gain popularity, so they wont do it. This game requires skill and talent, and if a player has enough of those 2 things, they will have 1 good tournament (like scarlett) and a team will pick them up. What you are suggesting does the players a great deal of favors, but it's the opposite for the team. They will inevidibly spend money and resources and time on it, which will gain them nothing in the short run. When a team picks up a new player, they are already investing a lot in the long-run, imagine doing this for 20+ more players. Not realistic. Oh yeah, 20+ players per team would be absurd. I'm talking 3 - 5. If it's not realistic, how is it that Complexity is always doing it? Ok, and how many times have we heard soemthing good coming out of complexity? I barely know who they are lol. In fact, the only reason i have minimal interest in them at all is because everyone is always talking about this apparent rivalry with eg, which i also dont understand lol.
What? I'm an EG fan myself, but Col has been a big player on the scene for quite a while... they also have Koreans like Ganzi and Heart, and have plenty of strong players. The Academy that they have is also helping, in that they've gotten players like Goswser and Sasquatch, both of whom are putting up strong results.
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What? I'm an EG fan myself, but Col has been a big player on the scene for quite a while... they also have Koreans like Ganzi and Heart, and have plenty of strong players. The Academy that they have is also helping, in that they've gotten players like Goswser and Sasquatch, both of whom are putting up strong results.
The [unfortunate] nature of this kind of competition is that people (mainly the fans, casual players, spectators, sponsors) only truely care about the major events and tournaments, and the players at the *very* top of the game right now.
Showing results in smaller events is fine, but that only really lets their team know that they are trying their best to improve. The fans dont care about playhem results, or some random tournament that gets sub 2k viewers.
Ok so you want each of these "big" foreign teams to adopt a B squad of 3-5 people, all of which don't have major tournament results (because if they did, they would be on the A-squad anyway), and you want these teams to provide life-sustaining support to these B-teamers that have 'some' potential? It just isnt a wise business decision on the surface, why else do teams like liquid and EG not do shit like that? It cant be because the people who run these other teams are dumbasses right? It's because it is a huge gamble that requires an investment.
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On November 03 2012 05:54 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +What? I'm an EG fan myself, but Col has been a big player on the scene for quite a while... they also have Koreans like Ganzi and Heart, and have plenty of strong players. The Academy that they have is also helping, in that they've gotten players like Goswser and Sasquatch, both of whom are putting up strong results. The [unfortunate] nature of this kind of competition is that people (mainly the fans, casual players, spectators, sponsors) only truely care about the major events and tournaments, and the players at the *very* top of the game right now. Showing results in smaller events is fine, but that only really lets their team know that they are trying their best to improve. The fans dont care about playhem results, or some random tournament that gets sub 2k viewers. Ok so you want each of these "big" foreign teams to adopt a B squad of 3-5 people, all of which don't have major tournament results (because if they did, they would be on the A-squad anyway), and you want these teams to provide life-sustaining support to these B-teamers that have 'some' potential? It just isnt a wise business decision on the surface, why else do teams like liquid and EG not do shit like that? It cant be because the people who run these other teams are dumbasses right? It's because it is a huge gamble that requires an investment.
Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players.
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I believe the CSL is a much better alternative to any "minor league". It is healthy, sustainable and conscientious.
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On November 03 2012 06:14 Rezudox wrote:
I believe the CSL is a much better alternative to any "minor league". It is healthy, sustainable and conscientious.
And only available to college students.
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On November 03 2012 06:17 Zennith wrote:
And only available to college students.
Yeah, I'm sure by extension it could reach highschool level over time. I think its a much more ideal model than seeing kids like Leenock leaving school at 15/16 to pursue a full time career in a risky and extremely unforgiving industry.
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Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players
I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment.
You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment.
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On November 03 2012 06:27 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:17 Zennith wrote:
And only available to college students. Yeah, I'm sure by extension it could reach highschool level over time. I think its a much more ideal model than seeing kids like Leenock leaving school at 15/16 to pursue a full time career in a risky and extremely unforgiving industry.
Perhaps. But what do you do with those older or who aren't in school? Or what if the school they go to just doesn't have enough players to form a team? CSL is fine, but it's not enough on its own.
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On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment.
And hey, the US is obviously a different beast - people live far apart, and it's not feasible to house everyone. You can still give people time and energy and good training, even if they're doing other things also. The idea would be that if you do well in the academy and show your stuff, you get called up and THEN you go to the pro house, etc. It's still giving these players more than they get right now.
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On November 03 2012 06:33 Zennith wrote:
Perhaps. But what do you do with those older or who aren't in school?
To be totally honest if you are older than a college grad and deciding to go pro you will most likely be the first person who has ever succeeded in that if you make it. I just don't think any system will help accomplish that goal.
If you are simply not academic or don't have any desire to go to college.. I think its up to that person to make it happen. Most likely by saving up money for a while before giving it a shot, or with financial support from a relative or backer of some sort. If you don't have sufficient drive to make it possible for yourself to try, you are most likely never going to succeed in becoming a pro-gamer.
I think we have seen even just today that a project like the GOM foreigner house didn't yield results. And that provided a very similar support to what any minor league or b-team could currently.
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On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment.
personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path.
Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/
I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none.
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On November 03 2012 06:47 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:33 Zennith wrote:
Perhaps. But what do you do with those older or who aren't in school? To be totally honest if you are older than a college grad and deciding to go pro you will most likely be the first person who has ever succeeded in that if you make it. I just don't think any system will help accomplish that goal. If you are simply not academic or don't have any desire to go to college.. I think its up to that person to make it happen. Most likely by saving up money for a while before giving it a shot, or with financial support from a relative or backer of some sort. If you don't have sufficient drive to make it possible for yourself to try, you are most likely never going to succeed in becoming a pro-gamer. I think we have seen even just today that a project like the GOM foreigner house didn't yield results. And that provided a very similar support to what any minor league or b-team could currently.
Right, but it was in Korea, not in NA, and it wasn't actually run by any team.
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential.
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On November 03 2012 06:48 Zennith wrote:
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential.
I didn't say its impossible, I just pointed out that if someone were to do it they would be the first. To the best of my knowledge. That should act as reasonable indicator of probability of success.
I accept that the GOM house is in Korea and that's a little bit different, but I think its a reasonable comparative tool to what you could hope to get in a b-team environment currently. Keep in mind that even with all their dirty cash EG don't even have a full time coach. Nor do Quantic or Complexity. If the biggest teams cant acquire a dedicated coach for their premier players how are they going to find one for a b-team?
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On November 03 2012 07:11 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:48 Zennith wrote:
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential. I didn't say its impossible, I just pointed out that if someone were to do it they would be the first. To the best of my knowledge. That should act as reasonable indicator of probability of success. I accept that the GOM house is in Korea and that's a little bit different, but I think its a reasonable comparative tool to what you could hope to get in a b-team environment currently. Keep in mind that even with all their dirty cash EG don't even have a full time coach. Nor do Quantic or Complexity. If the biggest teams cant acquire a dedicated coach for their premier players how are they going to find one for a b-team?
Most players at the gom house, didnt practice with anyone and just laddered, as thats all the gom house provided, It didnt give a solid practice environment to improve it was just a place to stay. Desrow had a big write up a while ago on his time there and thats my TLDR version. And what does having a coach have to do with just practicing with solid players or getting people interested in those players? No one even freaking mentioned a coach anywhere in this thread as far as I know =/
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On November 03 2012 07:11 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:48 Zennith wrote:
And as to being older - well why the hell not? This isn't Football or Basketball. Age may matter, but there's no reason an older player (is 22 old?) can't have potential. I didn't say its impossible, I just pointed out that if someone were to do it they would be the first. To the best of my knowledge. That should act as reasonable indicator of probability of success. I accept that the GOM house is in Korea and that's a little bit different, but I think its a reasonable comparative tool to what you could hope to get in a b-team environment currently. Keep in mind that even with all their dirty cash EG don't even have a full time coach. Nor do Quantic or Complexity. If the biggest teams cant acquire a dedicated coach for their premier players how are they going to find one for a b-team?
You lose credibility when you start talking about dirty money.
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On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none.
This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench.
If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed.
If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol.
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On November 03 2012 07:19 Zennith wrote:
You lose credibility when you start talking about dirty money.
That was intended to be a joke.
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I just don't think we need a minor league. You don't need a farm system and there are ways for teams to notice you. If you are not good at promoting yourself as a player you will struggle. You need to keep track of via a list and replays of known players you've beaten via ladder and a seperate list for tournaments. Play those weekly tournaments. Save up that cash and send yourself to all of the mlg's. Get a stream going and promote it. People aren't just going to hand you a player contract. You have to prove you deserve it. Teams and sponsors want results and personalities that get noticed. I think getting reliable practice partners would be the hardest thing to do. Most of the people at the top f the ladder have everybdy on ignore or are too busy grinding games to chat. It doesn't hurt to send a message and ask if they want to form a partnership. I think being n person at tournaments would be the easiest way to pick up a group practice partners.
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On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol.
So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point.
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On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point.
And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments.
The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players.
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On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players.
No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you.
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On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you.
There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak:
1) Developing non-Pros into Pros.
2) Making the NA scene competitive.
The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish.
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On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish.
Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless.
And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread?
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On November 03 2012 12:05 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish. Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless. And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread?
Yes, you actually did say "insanely good ROI". Verbatim.
And what I feel about the NA scene is completely irrelevant. You're asking why teams don't invest in minor leagues, and I'm telling you bluntly. Making the NA scene competitive is simply not a smart business plan considering the financial state of most teams. Entire countries have problems making their nations competitive in sports, and they can actually afford to invest in the very long term.
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I would love to see the distinction made between a team or academy and a club or a clan. The way I see it, professionals (i.e. anyone who makes their living purely derived from playing SC2 as a result of tournament winnings, sponsorship, team provided salary or streaming) are employed by teams. Clubs or clans are groups of players who enjoy the game, and may be able to play at an extremely high level but either have no plans or means to play professionally, and/or have additional responsibilities (work or school) that impede their development.
I love the idea of minor leagues, but the burden is not on teams to provide them with everything that is unreasonable. My proposition for development is as follows:
Teams and Academies
-Players draw some amount of payment from the team directly.
-Players may participate in any league.
-Players have access to team support for travel and lodging.
Clans and Clubs
-Presumably high level players solicit involvement directly with the team.
-Ineligible to participate on the part of the team in leagues
-Purely voluntary, all game and competition expenses on the Club member
What club and clan members get after being accepted.
-Access to team level practice.
-Opportunity for consideration for the Academy or team based on results or performance.
-Clan tag (Gamer credentials of course)
-Exposure through individual endeavors and clan/club level leagues.
I think of it as the difference between being a contractor and an employee at a major company. You get in on your own merit, and demonstrate to the owners of the team that you are worth the investment while taking advantage of the environment and culture the team provides.
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On November 03 2012 12:18 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:05 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:Life-sustaining? No, not that. This is talking merely about basic investment, not treating them like they're already star players I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment. You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish. Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless. And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread? Yes, you actually did say "insanely good ROI". Verbatim.
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...)
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On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:18 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 12:05 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:On November 03 2012 06:28 ishyishy wrote:
[quote]
I dont understand. You want teams to support no-namers with a lot of potential, but not give them enough support to where they no longer need to work? I dont understand what you mean by a basic investment.
You or someone else mentioned that Korean teams do this for their B-team players. Well, what they do is they give these players a place to live, and pay for their food. Being treated like a star player means you are getting paid a salary to be on the team, what I am talking about by "life-sustaining" is providing food and shelter, which is a huge investment when taking into consideration renting/buying a house, or an appartment. personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path. Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/ I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none. This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish. Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless. And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread? Yes, you actually did say "insanely good ROI". Verbatim. Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed. And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...)
This is funny, considering it's exactly what I just said about you. You made an assumption about how lucrative a NA minor league would be, and have vaguely argued about it for this entire thread, solely because you want the NA region to be competitive.
What I feel is completely irrelevant, because I have no hopes nor any desire to influence the big teams one way or another. You seem to have a vested interest in this, however, whether it's as a hopeful player or just an impulsive fan, so if you actually want to see this happen, you're going to need something more substantial than your personal gut feelings to gain any traction.
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On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...)
For someone that wants input and discussion on your ideas, you're being incredibly defensive and negative to what people are telling you. He isn't being biased, he's just stating probably true predictions about what is likely to happen given what was tried in the past. Nobody is hating on anything, what many are basically saying is "Stop whining, get better, then people will care." Why even bother posting this for discussion if all you wanted were mindless sheep harping about how good of an idea this is?
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On November 03 2012 12:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 12:18 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 12:05 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 12:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 10:02 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 09:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 03 2012 09:43 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On November 03 2012 06:48 KiF1rE wrote:
[quote]
personally I would love just practice partners and marketing help when I do beat someone notable or take an event. As currently no matter how much I win, the community will never care, teams will never care. Because Im just a dedicated guy that tries to practice 8 hours a day with no practice partners. For example when teams picked apart my old team, No team ever gave me an offer, even though ive won a couple grand in my sc2 career, that no one knows about, because no one cares and I suck at marketing myself as a solo player, But big teams had no problem taking my teammates because they had some marketability. Its just an awkward situation, There is no such thing as competitive esports, There is only popularity and selling a product. It doesnt matter how much you win, how many koreans you knock down, Your not going anywhere untill you can win that one MLG that's easily possible to attend a year. I'm not saying its bad to sell products, Its the way the world goes round, But there should be more solid opportunities, Instead of some obscure path.
Leagues like CSL keep getting mentioned, I graduated from college and no decent CSL teams in my area, Even if I did, I have no intention of going back to college to just play SC2 full time lol.... Such a stupid paradox and waste of a league from the perspective of someone trying to go pro. Even take amateur tournaments ran by like IGN, they havent ran one in a while, but the restrictions are less than 1k in live events. Guess what I dont qualify anymore lol... But players on contracts and living in teamhouses do =/
I have the means to sustain myself at the moment, Why I have the time to attempt to go pro. My only path is to fight on, keep trying... I'm going to make it out to 2 MLG's next year, and will have even more free time. I just wish I could get some better quality practice before those events and attempt to make it further than this year. No more losing to players like Vibe, I need to advance past that and push forward. and thats about all I can do and of course hope. Even when it feels like there is none.
This isnt the beta anymore. The game, the players, the scene, is pretty cemented down. You have to be "special" to get attention now, and it is because there arent infinite spots on the "im famous" bench. If you have no connections with a pro player, coach, team, manager, and you are not an overflow of talent(like stephano), then you got your work cut out for you. It is going to take something spectacular for people to pay attention to you. It's kind of like a musician; anyone can try, but only a few succeed. If you want attention, go to MLG and make it to the pool play. I guarantee attention from that. Otherwise, good luck in whatever else you try lol. So somebody who is really good should just give up because the system is flawed? MLG shouldn't be the only way for players to get exposure. That's the whole fucking point. And I think we've finally hit the heart of your arguments, after five pages of circular arguments. The system isn't flawed. The system is poor. As in lacking money. You're essentially asking teams to devote time, resources and funding to give wannabe pros a "fair chance", when they already struggle to properly monetize their existing players. No. I want them to spend man-hours developing players that could give them an insanely good ROI in the long run and could help turn the NA scene into something that can actually compete. Sorry if that sounds like a worthless goal to you. There are two goals here that are "worthless", so to speak: 1) Developing non-Pros into Pros. 2) Making the NA scene competitive. The crux of the issue is that you want both of things to happen, and provide the assumption that this will generate insanely good ROI as a justification for this wish. Did I say insanely good? I think it'll be enough, but it might not be "insanely good". And everyone starts as a non-pro. EVERYONE. Streamlining that development could only be a good thing. It's hardly worthless. And hey, if you don't give a shit about the NA scene, why are you posting in this thread? Yes, you actually did say "insanely good ROI". Verbatim. Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed. And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...) This is funny, considering it's exactly what I just said about you. You made an assumption about how lucrative a NA minor league would be, and have vaguely argued about it for this entire thread, solely because you want the NA region to be competitive. What I feel is completely irrelevant, because I have no hopes nor any desire to influence the big teams one way or another. You seem to have a vested interest in this, however, whether it's as a hopeful player or just an impulsive fan, so if you actually want to see this happen, you're going to need something more substantial than your personal gut feelings to gain any traction.
I'm an okay amateur, but I'm not near the level of player that I'm talking about. You wanna know where this impulse comes from? It comes from talking with players. It comes from managing a team on the amateur scene and seeing how it runs. It comes from understanding that often, it's more a matter of man-hours and hard work than it is an issue of money. You seem to think it would be this big, crazy expensive thing. That's not what I'm talking about, that's not what other people are looking for.
People are looking for something that can help sustain the scene in the long term, something that can help encourage growth. The investment into creating academy teams is mostly an organizational one. We're not talking about offering salaries to players, we're not talking about putting them in team houses quite yet. We're talking about giving strong players a real option and avenue both for improvement and for becoming a part of the professional scene. We're talking about giving them incentives in return for gaining potentially strong players in the future.
This is literally already working with Complexity. Why is that model so unsustainable? It costs them so little, and they've actually gained (it seems from the outside) a real boost from it so far.
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On November 03 2012 12:32 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...) For someone that wants input and discussion on your ideas, you're being incredibly defensive and negative to what people are telling you. He isn't being biased, he's just stating probably true predictions about what is likely to happen given what was tried in the past. Nobody is hating on anything, what many are basically saying is "Stop whining, get better, then people will care." Why even bother posting this for discussion if all you wanted were mindless sheep harping about how good of an idea this is?
And hey, fair enough. I hear you. It just seems to me that many people are negative without even understanding the concept (or clearly without having read the first post). People keep saying it's a matter of resources. But what are the resources that truly can't be spared? That's my honest question. Because a system like this really shouldn't cost much money.
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On November 03 2012 12:39 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:32 EienShinwa wrote:On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...) For someone that wants input and discussion on your ideas, you're being incredibly defensive and negative to what people are telling you. He isn't being biased, he's just stating probably true predictions about what is likely to happen given what was tried in the past. Nobody is hating on anything, what many are basically saying is "Stop whining, get better, then people will care." Why even bother posting this for discussion if all you wanted were mindless sheep harping about how good of an idea this is? And hey, fair enough. I hear you. It just seems to me that many people are negative without even understanding the concept (or clearly without having read the first post). People keep saying it's a matter of resources. But what are the resources that truly can't be spared? That's my honest question. Because a system like this really shouldn't cost much money.
It's not that it costs a lot of money, it's that finances aren't exactly free to experiment with. If you look at the major initiatives that teams like EG and Fanatic put forward, they've basically asked for sponsorship money specifically for those programs (like the Masters Cup).
As nice as it is to believe that Complexity made the Academy solely to build new players, the fact that it was a novelty and good for content in an unsaturated portion of the market is probably what allowed it to get off the ground.
Of course, this is just speculation on my part. What I do know, though, is that the Academy and its players get a lot less attention than, say, EG's random content videos.
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On November 03 2012 12:39 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:32 EienShinwa wrote:On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...) For someone that wants input and discussion on your ideas, you're being incredibly defensive and negative to what people are telling you. He isn't being biased, he's just stating probably true predictions about what is likely to happen given what was tried in the past. Nobody is hating on anything, what many are basically saying is "Stop whining, get better, then people will care." Why even bother posting this for discussion if all you wanted were mindless sheep harping about how good of an idea this is? And hey, fair enough. I hear you. It just seems to me that many people are negative without even understanding the concept (or clearly without having read the first post). People keep saying it's a matter of resources. But what are the resources that truly can't be spared? That's my honest question. Because a system like this really shouldn't cost much money.
With all due respect with what you're trying to get accomplished, something like an official minor league to start up, the amount of infrastructure required to build up could be much higher than one can estimate just talking about it. And on top of that, although there are many passionate about home growing talent in the NA, there aren't a lot of takers who will jump at the chance to create it. I honestly think the idea itself is good, but the SCII scene at the moment is not stable enough for most American teams to create it, as nobody is certain about the future of it at the moment. So I guess the next issue at hand and most important one is how will you make this idea interesting and attractive? People need more than hopes and passion of possible progamers to go off of.
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On November 03 2012 13:28 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:39 Zennith wrote:On November 03 2012 12:32 EienShinwa wrote:On November 03 2012 12:19 Zennith wrote:
Fair, although I did say could. Of course nothing is guaranteed.
And no, how you feel about the scene clearly impacts your reasoning. You have no idea the costs, and yet you're just claiming it's worthless. Sorry, you're opinion is irrelevant, since you're blatantly biased (for some reason. I'm not sure why anyone would hate a scene improving...) For someone that wants input and discussion on your ideas, you're being incredibly defensive and negative to what people are telling you. He isn't being biased, he's just stating probably true predictions about what is likely to happen given what was tried in the past. Nobody is hating on anything, what many are basically saying is "Stop whining, get better, then people will care." Why even bother posting this for discussion if all you wanted were mindless sheep harping about how good of an idea this is? And hey, fair enough. I hear you. It just seems to me that many people are negative without even understanding the concept (or clearly without having read the first post). People keep saying it's a matter of resources. But what are the resources that truly can't be spared? That's my honest question. Because a system like this really shouldn't cost much money. With all due respect with what you're trying to get accomplished, something like an official minor league to start up, the amount of infrastructure required to build up could be much higher than one can estimate just talking about it. And on top of that, although there are many passionate about home growing talent in the NA, there aren't a lot of takers who will jump at the chance to create it. I honestly think the idea itself is good, but the SCII scene at the moment is not stable enough for most American teams to create it, as nobody is certain about the future of it at the moment. So I guess the next issue at hand and most important one is how will you make this idea interesting and attractive? People need more than hopes and passion of possible progamers to go off of.
Totally! Oh totally, absolutely, you're completely right. You have to package and market content alongside an initiative like this. And I don't have the answers necessarily right now (of course I don't. I don't run one of those teams, and I have no true idea as to what their resources are), but really, that's what I was hoping for out of this thread, and I should have phrased it better.
What would it take to make an initiative like this get off the ground? How could it be marketed? Not just to fans, but to teams, players, and sponsors as well?
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The purpose of minor leagues in sports is to develop talent by putting them into game situations (rather than get 0 playing time on a pro team) against opponents of similar skill level.
For SC2, you can get into game situations by clicking the FIND MATCH button, or setting up practice with someone of similar skill level. I think training in this manner would be 10x more effective than playing league matches or whatever (so much downtime and preparation time before a match starts).
And the training environment, sure it's nice to have teammates to train with... you can also train with friends or join other random teams without having to play in some minor league system.
Considering 90% of people here say they want to watch the best SC2 regardless of who's playing, I doubt anyone is gonna turn out for this. Minor league games get ridiculously low attendance, and that's in cities that typically do not have a pro team (eg. Alberquerque, Hamilton, etc.) - with SC2 you can watch pro matches anywhere anytime so there's really no demand for a lesser product I think.
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On November 03 2012 13:42 Zennith wrote:
Totally! Oh totally, absolutely, you're completely right. You have to package and market content alongside an initiative like this. And I don't have the answers necessarily right now (of course I don't. I don't run one of those teams, and I have no true idea as to what their resources are), but really, that's what I was hoping for out of this thread, and I should have phrased it better.
What would it take to make an initiative like this get off the ground? How could it be marketed? Not just to fans, but to teams, players, and sponsors as well?
I don't think you are fully grounded in reality.
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On November 04 2012 14:02 Rezudox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:42 Zennith wrote:
Totally! Oh totally, absolutely, you're completely right. You have to package and market content alongside an initiative like this. And I don't have the answers necessarily right now (of course I don't. I don't run one of those teams, and I have no true idea as to what their resources are), but really, that's what I was hoping for out of this thread, and I should have phrased it better.
What would it take to make an initiative like this get off the ground? How could it be marketed? Not just to fans, but to teams, players, and sponsors as well?
I don't think you are fully grounded in reality.
Yeah. How dare anyone have ambitions?
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You know there has been all this talk about teams/academies... Why hasnt a tournament organization do something? For example a couple years ago MLG tried partnering with lan centers, However lan centers obviously arent sustainable and the reason why that initiative failed... But there is something new... Barcrafts, what if a tournament organizer partnered with barcraft type locations to run amateur events to help build local competitive communities, Those would provide a whose who of local competitive starcraft to the masses at those events, and help build a larger amateur scene that could lead into something better for the scenes in those area, Leading into a stronger NA scene overall. The fact MLG tried before shows that MLG was interested, But what if they tried again? SC2 wasnt out then, and lan centers are not like barcrafts. Barcrafts locations are not gaming based and will exist when events dont happen, But a big initiative could change the way Esports works around the world.
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there are many smaller team leagues and teams that are the "minor leagues" a lot of major players were brought up by these teams, but the goal of these teams are to be the next big team, not a thing that bigger teams feed from
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On November 05 2012 08:21 ScaSully wrote:
there are many smaller team leagues and teams that are the "minor leagues" a lot of major players were brought up by these teams, but the goal of these teams are to be the next big team, not a thing that bigger teams feed from
And the problem there is that a team on our level is much more likely to develop a few strong players that are able to make the jump than they are to become a big name team themselves. Finding enough sponsors for a team with very little brand awareness is near impossible.
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There are also small tournaments, like the Semi-pro Gaming League (SPGL) and the Alienware Arena..which lesser known players can participate in....But i would still contend that the number of leagues is not the problem..it's that they don't get any attention because no one cares about lesser known players (to be blunt) or at least very few people watch/care.
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Well in most games they have B teams and reserve leagues for them to play in. I can't see why EG, ROOT...etc can't just sign a load of up and coming amateur players and make up a B team for this type of league. Like you don't even need to pay the players you just have to offer them the opportunity to show their skills and eventually get into the main team if they are good enough.
At the moment the only team doing it is Fnatic and in a semi way ROOT with Fitzy not being included in the main roster but being on the team. I think it would be interesting and could add fresh blood to the scene.
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Here, let me break it down for you:
People don't care to watch "Up & Coming Players" unless it's in the middle of (or right after) a deep run in a major tournament.
There is no RoI on supporting players that have the potential to be great outside of putting them on an academy team (see coL.Academy) and hoping they do well.
You're drastically underestimating the cost of getting exposure for the academy players, not to mention the time it takes to generate content, which is a valuable resource in eSports.
You're asking for one of two things:
Either
1. The existence of teams that create players that become popular/extremely good down the road (These already exist)
OR
2. The creation of academy teams by Major Teams to directly draw players from after training. (This is a model nobody outside of coL uses because of the drawbacks compared to option 1 which already exists)
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
The viewership for online cups has dropped dramatically with the oversaturation of live events. Combine that with the fact that less than 5% of the viewer base for SC2 actually has interest in watching unknown talented players as opposed to already major players and you have absolutely no incentive to train up players yourself as a Major team when someone else is already doing it for you, otherwise said Major team has to shoulder the financial burden of getting the players to their first LAN events and hope they do well, rather than letting Minor teams (which do exist) shoulder that financial burden and then reap the rewards afterwards offering said player benefits the Minor team cannot, after said player has already established some sort of potential RoI on the investment.
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Why don't owners of minor league teams use their own personal money to develop players, PROVE they can do it, and then either become affiliated with a major team or negotiate transfer payments for the top players?
No risk for the major team
Players get noticed
Players get developed/picked up
Costs are covered for the successful teams.
So how about it? An investment of 6-10k can get you off the ground and the rest is up to your skills and decision making.
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On November 07 2012 04:19 chadissilent wrote:
Why don't owners of minor league teams use their own personal money to develop players, PROVE they can do it, and then either become affiliated with a major team or negotiate transfer payments for the top players?
No risk for the major team
Players get noticed
Players get developed/picked up
Costs are covered for the successful teams.
So how about it? An investment of 6-10k can get you off the ground and the rest is up to your skills and decision making.
Costs are never recovered in addition that success doesn't necessarily equal to exposure or future opportunity.
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On November 07 2012 04:21 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 04:19 chadissilent wrote:
Why don't owners of minor league teams use their own personal money to develop players, PROVE they can do it, and then either become affiliated with a major team or negotiate transfer payments for the top players?
No risk for the major team
Players get noticed
Players get developed/picked up
Costs are covered for the successful teams.
So how about it? An investment of 6-10k can get you off the ground and the rest is up to your skills and decision making. Costs are never recovered in addition that success doesn't necessarily equal to exposure or future opportunity.
And this is why there are no minor leagues/academy teams. It just proves the point I made several pages ago.
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I laughed very hard when I saw that you put EG and the CoL Academy team in the same group. Can't decide who it's insulting more (just kidding, people).
I think that this is a very interesting point you bring up. Maybe Playhem could have a special weekly tournament reserved for people at a certain ranking but no one who has a sponsor? Might make for some interesting turnout.
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Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
Really? That's definitely what I'm saying. Hell, for the record, I don't think that SC2 is dying at all. I just do think there's a lack of a clear avenue for top tier talented players to show their stuff outside of lucky breaks at MLG. The whole idea of a thread like this is to ask "What would make it feasible?" Just shooting things down with incessant negativity does nobody any good.
You're saying there's no RoI. Maybe not initially, but that's not the point - the fact that Complexity is able to actually make it work shows that at least on some level the idea is feasible. You aren't looking for an RoI on every single player - you're looking to develop a new Suppy, a new Idra, a new Scarlett. Players who will enhance the team globally, and then once you have a success story you can point to the academy and say - oh hey! Look at that! They came from us and are a product of our training.
Honestly, Goswser is a great example. He's been tearing it up, and actually played pretty damn well at MLG. If he continues to improve at this rate, he'll be a great success story for Col. to point to.
vVv's academy is a great thing, no doubt. But none of those players are close to the caliber we're talking about here.
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On November 07 2012 03:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Here, let me break it down for you:
People don't care to watch "Up & Coming Players" unless it's in the middle of (or right after) a deep run in a major tournament.
There is no RoI on supporting players that have the potential to be great outside of putting them on an academy team (see coL.Academy) and hoping they do well.
You're drastically underestimating the cost of getting exposure for the academy players, not to mention the time it takes to generate content, which is a valuable resource in eSports.
You're asking for one of two things:
Either
1. The existence of teams that create players that become popular/extremely good down the road (These already exist)
OR
2. The creation of academy teams by Major Teams to directly draw players from after training. (This is a model nobody outside of coL uses because of the drawbacks compared to option 1 which already exists)
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
The viewership for online cups has dropped dramatically with the oversaturation of live events. Combine that with the fact that less than 5% of the viewer base for SC2 actually has interest in watching unknown talented players as opposed to already major players and you have absolutely no incentive to train up players yourself as a Major team when someone else is already doing it for you, otherwise said Major team has to shoulder the financial burden of getting the players to their first LAN events and hope they do well, rather than letting Minor teams (which do exist) shoulder that financial burden and then reap the rewards afterwards offering said player benefits the Minor team cannot, after said player has already established some sort of potential RoI on the investment.
Well then what do I have to do as a player to even join a mid tier team? or even get on a mid tier teams radar. My goal is obviously to go pro, But I would also just love to be in a team type environment. But thats the thing, what is success? From a competitor standpoint, ive won every lan ive attended in michigan this year which is around 6 total. which I would consider the lower minor leagues of pro gaming, But my MLG runs are always cut short by players like vibe. And this is where I feel trapped, No matter what I do, I cant get on a current existing academy team, Or get connections to join a smaller team that wants to try to grow that I feel comfortable with.
I dont understand the cost of allowing a player practice with a decent team, and allow them to get out to events on their own money, I dont understand how that is a financial burden. And where is option 1 that already exists? I would like to join one of those.
On November 07 2012 05:28 Zennith wrote:vVv's academy is a great thing, no doubt. But none of those players are close to the caliber we're talking about here.
Yeah, Im still not sure what they have to offer for a skilled player wanting to go pro, They highlighted a diamond player getting promoted and claim all player spots are full in that post anyway =/
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On November 07 2012 05:28 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
Really? That's definitely what I'm saying. Hell, for the record, I don't think that SC2 is dying at all. I just do think there's a lack of a clear avenue for top tier talented players to show their stuff outside of lucky breaks at MLG. The whole idea of a thread like this is to ask "What would make it feasible?" Just shooting things down with incessant negativity does nobody any good. You're saying there's no RoI. Maybe not initially, but that's not the point - the fact that Complexity is able to actually make it work shows that at least on some level the idea is feasible. You aren't looking for an RoI on every single player - you're looking to develop a new Suppy, a new Idra, a new Scarlett. Players who will enhance the team globally, and then once you have a success story you can point to the academy and say - oh hey! Look at that! They came from us and are a product of our training. Honestly, Goswser is a great example. He's been tearing it up, and actually played pretty damn well at MLG. If he continues to improve at this rate, he'll be a great success story for Col. to point to. vVv's academy is a great thing, no doubt. But none of those players are close to the caliber we're talking about here.
Do you think EG developed Suppy? Do you think Acer developed Scarlett? Do you think coL developed goswser?
Like I said on the last page, you're welcome to put up the $6000-10000 it will require to develop players over 6-12 months and then sell their contracts to large teams or strike an affiliation deal. If you're a good judge of talent and have good marketing skills, you should succeed should you not?
Please, tell me. Will you put up that money to develop the players?
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On November 07 2012 05:33 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 05:28 Zennith wrote:
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
Really? That's definitely what I'm saying. Hell, for the record, I don't think that SC2 is dying at all. I just do think there's a lack of a clear avenue for top tier talented players to show their stuff outside of lucky breaks at MLG. The whole idea of a thread like this is to ask "What would make it feasible?" Just shooting things down with incessant negativity does nobody any good. You're saying there's no RoI. Maybe not initially, but that's not the point - the fact that Complexity is able to actually make it work shows that at least on some level the idea is feasible. You aren't looking for an RoI on every single player - you're looking to develop a new Suppy, a new Idra, a new Scarlett. Players who will enhance the team globally, and then once you have a success story you can point to the academy and say - oh hey! Look at that! They came from us and are a product of our training. Honestly, Goswser is a great example. He's been tearing it up, and actually played pretty damn well at MLG. If he continues to improve at this rate, he'll be a great success story for Col. to point to. vVv's academy is a great thing, no doubt. But none of those players are close to the caliber we're talking about here. Do you think EG developed Suppy? Do you think Acer developed Scarlett? Do you think coL developed goswser? Like I said on the last page, you're welcome to put up the $6000-10000 it will require to develop players over 6-12 months and then sell their contracts to large teams or strike an affiliation deal. If you're a good judge of talent and have good marketing skills, you should succeed should you not? Please, tell me. Will you put up that money to develop the players?
Obviously Acer didn't develop scarlett... good lord. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. I personally don't have the finances of a major team, and there's absolutely no way it costs 10K to have a player practice with a team in an academy setting (we're not talking team houses or mlg's generally until they've proven they can hang with the highest level players. That's the whole point).
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On November 07 2012 05:33 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 03:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Here, let me break it down for you:
People don't care to watch "Up & Coming Players" unless it's in the middle of (or right after) a deep run in a major tournament.
There is no RoI on supporting players that have the potential to be great outside of putting them on an academy team (see coL.Academy) and hoping they do well.
You're drastically underestimating the cost of getting exposure for the academy players, not to mention the time it takes to generate content, which is a valuable resource in eSports.
You're asking for one of two things:
Either
1. The existence of teams that create players that become popular/extremely good down the road (These already exist)
OR
2. The creation of academy teams by Major Teams to directly draw players from after training. (This is a model nobody outside of coL uses because of the drawbacks compared to option 1 which already exists)
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
The viewership for online cups has dropped dramatically with the oversaturation of live events. Combine that with the fact that less than 5% of the viewer base for SC2 actually has interest in watching unknown talented players as opposed to already major players and you have absolutely no incentive to train up players yourself as a Major team when someone else is already doing it for you, otherwise said Major team has to shoulder the financial burden of getting the players to their first LAN events and hope they do well, rather than letting Minor teams (which do exist) shoulder that financial burden and then reap the rewards afterwards offering said player benefits the Minor team cannot, after said player has already established some sort of potential RoI on the investment. Well then what do I have to do as a player to even join a mid tier team? or even get on a mid tier teams radar. My goal is obviously to go pro, But I would also just love to be in a team type environment. But thats the thing, what is success? From a competitor standpoint, ive won every lan ive attended in michigan this year which is around 6 total. which I would consider the lower minor leagues of pro gaming, But my MLG runs are always cut short by players like vibe. And this is where I feel trapped, No matter what I do, I cant get on a current existing academy team, Or get connections to join a smaller team that wants to try to grow that I feel comfortable with. I dont understand the cost of allowing a player practice with a decent team, and allow them to get out to events on their own money, I dont understand how that is a financial burden. And where is option 1 that already exists? I would like to join one of those.
As a player, you need to show you have a special talent that many other people don't. When Dante and I brought State into tQ, we saw a special talent in his sentry control. When I was playing with illusion before he joined vile, I noticed his amazing unit control -- as did Atticus (former tQ manager, was the vile manager at the time). When we built Clash, MoOk had extremely solid gameplay but nothing special about him. Once he came to the US, we spent copious amounts of time teaching him the small tactics he would need to succeed (huge credit to xSixShadow who spent months coaching MoOk). Another special talent we saw was Messiah in Clash. He had incredible burrowed baneling usage (on par with Leenock IMO), but was in school and never able to fully realize his dreams.
Stuff like that is what gets a player noticed. Not some sweet build he made up or how good his all-ins are on ladder. You have to have an exceptional skill that, when the rest of your abilities catch up, will propel you to the top. This is what I look for, and this is what has made me successful in the work I perform.
The cost of allowing a lower level player to practice with a good team is an opportunity cost (time). If there is nothing exceptional about this player, then it is a waste of time for the others to practice with him. They want to practice with people of exceptional talent in one aspect or another so they are able to deal with the many situations they are faced with in tournament play.
One player from our team I would like to highlight is Clarity's KC. His micro was decent, his macro was alright, his builds were ok. Why would I take a chance on him? His drop play and game tactics are top notch. He could be in the most uncomfortable position yet battle his way back to win a game. I still maintain that he will be one of our best players in 6-8 months.
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On November 07 2012 05:38 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 05:33 chadissilent wrote:On November 07 2012 05:28 Zennith wrote:
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
Really? That's definitely what I'm saying. Hell, for the record, I don't think that SC2 is dying at all. I just do think there's a lack of a clear avenue for top tier talented players to show their stuff outside of lucky breaks at MLG. The whole idea of a thread like this is to ask "What would make it feasible?" Just shooting things down with incessant negativity does nobody any good. You're saying there's no RoI. Maybe not initially, but that's not the point - the fact that Complexity is able to actually make it work shows that at least on some level the idea is feasible. You aren't looking for an RoI on every single player - you're looking to develop a new Suppy, a new Idra, a new Scarlett. Players who will enhance the team globally, and then once you have a success story you can point to the academy and say - oh hey! Look at that! They came from us and are a product of our training. Honestly, Goswser is a great example. He's been tearing it up, and actually played pretty damn well at MLG. If he continues to improve at this rate, he'll be a great success story for Col. to point to. vVv's academy is a great thing, no doubt. But none of those players are close to the caliber we're talking about here. Do you think EG developed Suppy? Do you think Acer developed Scarlett? Do you think coL developed goswser? Like I said on the last page, you're welcome to put up the $6000-10000 it will require to develop players over 6-12 months and then sell their contracts to large teams or strike an affiliation deal. If you're a good judge of talent and have good marketing skills, you should succeed should you not? Please, tell me. Will you put up that money to develop the players? Obviously Acer didn't develop scarlett... good lord. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. I personally don't have the finances of a major team, and there's absolutely no way it costs 10K to have a player practice with a team in an academy setting (we're not talking team houses or mlg's generally until they've proven they can hang with the highest level players. That's the whole point).
You'd be surprised how small the budgets for most teams are. EG is a completely different beast, but at that point, they can just buy whatever talent they want.
I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass, this is how much it costs to get players out to events and give them experience in a tournament setting. It's not $6-10k for 1 player for one event. It's that much for a group of players for multiple events. All of our players can hang with the highest level players (hell, most of them practice daily in the private complexity in-house practice sessions), but at this point they are not at the level where a top team would sign them. Why? They don't have the exposure or results yet. How do they get exposure/results? Events.
You can market the hell out of a bunch of sub-par players that will never go anywhere, but nobody will care. Look at the vVv Academy.
If you don't want to put up the money, what makes you think someone else would? If your idea is a surefire bet, take out a loan for it. It's a sure thing, right?
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On November 07 2012 05:49 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 05:38 Zennith wrote:On November 07 2012 05:33 chadissilent wrote:On November 07 2012 05:28 Zennith wrote:
Pull your head out of your ass. Just because you think "OH MAN WE COULD SAVE DYING SC2 WITH ACADEMY TEAMS!!!" doesn't mean it's actually a feasible, sustainable, or even logical idea to implement.
Really? That's definitely what I'm saying. Hell, for the record, I don't think that SC2 is dying at all. I just do think there's a lack of a clear avenue for top tier talented players to show their stuff outside of lucky breaks at MLG. The whole idea of a thread like this is to ask "What would make it feasible?" Just shooting things down with incessant negativity does nobody any good. You're saying there's no RoI. Maybe not initially, but that's not the point - the fact that Complexity is able to actually make it work shows that at least on some level the idea is feasible. You aren't looking for an RoI on every single player - you're looking to develop a new Suppy, a new Idra, a new Scarlett. Players who will enhance the team globally, and then once you have a success story you can point to the academy and say - oh hey! Look at that! They came from us and are a product of our training. Honestly, Goswser is a great example. He's been tearing it up, and actually played pretty damn well at MLG. If he continues to improve at this rate, he'll be a great success story for Col. to point to. vVv's academy is a great thing, no doubt. But none of those players are close to the caliber we're talking about here. Do you think EG developed Suppy? Do you think Acer developed Scarlett? Do you think coL developed goswser? Like I said on the last page, you're welcome to put up the $6000-10000 it will require to develop players over 6-12 months and then sell their contracts to large teams or strike an affiliation deal. If you're a good judge of talent and have good marketing skills, you should succeed should you not? Please, tell me. Will you put up that money to develop the players? Obviously Acer didn't develop scarlett... good lord. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. I personally don't have the finances of a major team, and there's absolutely no way it costs 10K to have a player practice with a team in an academy setting (we're not talking team houses or mlg's generally until they've proven they can hang with the highest level players. That's the whole point). You'd be surprised how small the budgets for most teams are. EG is a completely different beast, but at that point, they can just buy whatever talent they want. I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass, this is how much it costs to get players out to events and give them experience in a tournament setting. It's not $6-10k for 1 player for one event. It's that much for a group of players for multiple events. All of our players can hang with the highest level players (hell, most of them practice daily in the private complexity in-house practice sessions), but at this point they are not at the level where a top team would sign them. Why? They don't have the exposure or results yet. How do they get exposure/results? Events. You can market the hell out of a bunch of sub-par players that will never go anywhere, but nobody will care. Look at the vVv Academy. If you don't want to put up the money, what makes you think someone else would? If your idea is a surefire bet, take out a loan for it. It's a sure thing, right?
The thing you're missing - it isn't about making a killing off of academies. It isn't about sending those players to events yet. It isn't about them winning everything. It's about DEVELOPMENT. Once they get good enough, they come up to the A team, and that's when they get to actually do the things the main team players do. I mean, look at Korea. Some B-teamers spend years not ever playing in events, just practicing constantly, waiting for their break. But they have a way to get that break - they're a part of high level professional teams.
Hell, it isn't really about exposure. It's about making players better, period. If you develop a player who becomes the next Stephano, that will have benefits that far outweigh any opportunity costs you speak of.
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Hugs, high fives and good feelings aren't what drive business. That is what teams are, businesses. No player is going to stick around your team for years if you they aren't being rewarded. This is NA, not Korea. Some mid-level team will swoop in and offer the player a little of something, and the player bolts. What benefits did Millenium reap from EG signing Stephano once his contract expired? Most mid-level teams that are developing players want to become larger teams. They aren't in it to develop players for other teams, but what other choice do they have when the larger teams offer these players a contract once they get noticed?
I don't think you're understanding the concept of most teams. If you want a bunch of people that play and practice together and have fun, then it is a clan. If you want a group of competitive players striving to be the best and getting good results in tournaments, then you have a team and must treat the players as such.
Every team has started off venture capital (owners' investment) until sponsors come along. Sponsors don't care about up and coming players, they don't care about players at all. They want exposure and marketing benefits. They don't care which game, which players, etc. They just want the marketing, since that's all sponsorship really is.
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On November 07 2012 06:02 chadissilent wrote:
Hugs, high fives and good feelings aren't what drive business. That is what teams are, businesses. No player is going to stick around your team for years if you they aren't being rewarded. This is NA, not Korea. Some mid-level team will swoop in and offer the player a little of something, and the player bolts. What benefits did Millenium reap from EG signing Stephano once his contract expired? Most mid-level teams that are developing players want to become larger teams. They aren't in it to develop players for other teams, but what other choice do they have when the larger teams offer these players a contract once they get noticed?
I don't think you're understanding the concept of most teams. If you want a bunch of people that play and practice together and have fun, then it is a clan. If you want a group of competitive players striving to be the best and getting good results in tournaments, then you have a team and must treat the players as such.
Every team has started off venture capital (owners' investment) until sponsors come along. Sponsors don't care about up and coming players, they don't care about players at all. They want exposure and marketing benefits. They don't care which game, which players, etc. They just want the marketing, since that's all sponsorship really is.
Right... I fail to see what you're getting at. You think Millenium didn't benefit from Stephano? He's basically the only reason anyone ever heard of Mill, at least when it comes to SC2.
And no, I don't think you're right. Some middling team might make a small offer to a player, but if they're currently a B-Teamer for team like EG, I highly doubt they'd just leave. They'd probably make more streaming with the EG attached to their name than they would switching over to a small team willing to pay them a small stipend.
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Why would EG care to develop players? It's a waste of their time and doesn't follow their marketing strategy. I'm assuming you don't have any formal business training, you seem to be having a difficult time understanding what everyone is saying.
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On November 07 2012 06:08 chadissilent wrote:
Why would EG care to develop players? It's a waste of their time and doesn't follow their marketing strategy.
Because it's always cheaper to develop from within than it is to sign a free-agent.
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On November 07 2012 06:09 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 06:08 chadissilent wrote:
Why would EG care to develop players? It's a waste of their time and doesn't follow their marketing strategy. Because it's always cheaper to develop from within than it is to sign a free-agent.
That's true. Players developed from within NEVER become free agents, right? NHL superstars never get signed by other teams, or ask for raises from their current team.
Players get paid what they are worth to a team. It's a concept of Marginal Revenue Product -- if you will bring my team a $5000/year sponsor but you will increase EG's funding by $20,000 -- they have no problem giving you $10-15k worth of salary/benefits.
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On November 07 2012 06:11 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 06:09 Zennith wrote:On November 07 2012 06:08 chadissilent wrote:
Why would EG care to develop players? It's a waste of their time and doesn't follow their marketing strategy. Because it's always cheaper to develop from within than it is to sign a free-agent. That's true. Players developed from within NEVER become free agents, right? NHL superstars never get signed by other teams, or ask for raises from their current team.
But before they leave, they provide plenty of value to the team that developed them. You think the Cardinals didn't benefit from Albert Pujols just because he ended up leaving as a free agent?
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It seems like you are asking for larger teams to extend an olive branch to random players in hopes of them becoming good. Maybe if you list some of the next up and coming players that not many people know about, teams will find it beneficial to pick them up?
I know we would be more than willing to pick up some up and coming players and develop them with our existing team. We had 2 players finish in the top 50 at MLG (jookTo finishing 21st) and all 5 attendees finished in the top 80 IIRC. We can offer a home for the players to practice and develop, as well as benefits once they start performing well.
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On November 07 2012 06:16 chadissilent wrote:
It seems like you are asking for larger teams to extend an olive branch to random players in hopes of them becoming good. Maybe if you list some of the next up and coming players that not many people know about, teams will find it beneficial to pick them up?
I know we would be more than willing to pick up some up and coming players and develop them with our existing team. We had 2 players finish in the top 50 at MLG (jookTo finishing 21st) and all 5 attendees finished in the top 80 IIRC. We can offer a home for the players to practice and develop, as well as benefits once they start performing well.
Why list?
Monthly Up & Coming tournaments with larger teams supporting the winner or both the winners with a little cash prize. Bar anyone that is on a pro team(to the tournament organizers discretion as to what a pro team is) and wallah! You have 1-2 up and coming players every month on peoples radars.
What happens to the previous players? They have a whole month before the next tournament, if they're unable to improve vastly within this time with the resource of the pro teams(proper practice partners, strategy talk and shit like that) then they are 'dropped' from the Up & Coming program for a few months(Why a few months? Gives other players a chance to break out a little)
Or even have a tournament kind of like the recent MLG kespa vs esf/foreigners but have it Up & Comers vs established pros. There is so much that could be done to highlight up and coming players, but in the end it's people that are going to watch these tournaments and if there isn't enough people to watch then the scene is just going to keep stagnating as it is till there's nothing left.
Just a couple thoughts for food.
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On November 07 2012 06:34 MonkSEA wrote:
but in the end it's people that are going to watch these tournaments and if there isn't enough people to watch then the scene is just going to keep stagnating as it is till there's nothing left.
That's one of the points I've been trying to make this entire time.
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Right now it's really pointless for a minor league to exist.
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that's the beauty of internet. World tournament every weeks instead of each 4 years.
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On November 07 2012 08:57 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 06:34 MonkSEA wrote:
but in the end it's people that are going to watch these tournaments and if there isn't enough people to watch then the scene is just going to keep stagnating as it is till there's nothing left.
That's one of the points I've been trying to make this entire time.
The point may be true, but it isn't really relevant, because it doesn't have to be about the returns purely based on what's happening immediately in this hypothetical minor league. It's still about long term development.
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On November 07 2012 05:45 chadissilent wrote:
As a player, you need to show you have a special talent that many other people don't. When Dante and I brought State into tQ, we saw a special talent in his sentry control. When I was playing with illusion before he joined vile, I noticed his amazing unit control -- as did Atticus (former tQ manager, was the vile manager at the time). When we built Clash, MoOk had extremely solid gameplay but nothing special about him. Once he came to the US, we spent copious amounts of time teaching him the small tactics he would need to succeed (huge credit to xSixShadow who spent months coaching MoOk). Another special talent we saw was Messiah in Clash. He had incredible burrowed baneling usage (on par with Leenock IMO), but was in school and never able to fully realize his dreams.
While that makes sense, But going back what exposed those players to you in the first place? To allow you to find them, Take state for example, Hes a good example for that question as ive played against him several times before he joined tQ and during the tQ era we clashed a few times in tournaments as well. surely he didnt stand out initially because of his special talent that let you find him. As im sure no one said hey, look this guy has amazing sentry control for an unknown player. There had to be something that let you look into him as a player and scout this.
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On November 07 2012 09:32 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 05:45 chadissilent wrote:
As a player, you need to show you have a special talent that many other people don't. When Dante and I brought State into tQ, we saw a special talent in his sentry control. When I was playing with illusion before he joined vile, I noticed his amazing unit control -- as did Atticus (former tQ manager, was the vile manager at the time). When we built Clash, MoOk had extremely solid gameplay but nothing special about him. Once he came to the US, we spent copious amounts of time teaching him the small tactics he would need to succeed (huge credit to xSixShadow who spent months coaching MoOk). Another special talent we saw was Messiah in Clash. He had incredible burrowed baneling usage (on par with Leenock IMO), but was in school and never able to fully realize his dreams.
While that makes sense, But going back what exposed those players to you in the first place? To allow you to find them, Take state for example, Hes a good example for that question as ive played against him several times before he joined tQ and during the tQ era we clashed a few times in tournaments as well. surely he didnt stand out initially because of his special talent that let you find him. As im sure no one said hey, look this guy has amazing sentry control for an unknown player. There had to be something that let you look into him as a player and scout this.
We were all top level players in tQ and watched a lot of replays for our games. We would then talk to those players, such as StRa, in ladder/tournament games. That was when the scene was extremely undeveloped and the group of us (all BW guys) still had quite a few connections.
Nowadays, it's pretty much by recommendation or if someone approaches us. The players will recommend me to look at someone, I'll grab the head coach and we'll run through some games with the player. If we see something we like, we'll take a chance. If not, keep working hard and talk to us again in the future.
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On November 07 2012 09:46 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 09:32 KiF1rE wrote:On November 07 2012 05:45 chadissilent wrote:
As a player, you need to show you have a special talent that many other people don't. When Dante and I brought State into tQ, we saw a special talent in his sentry control. When I was playing with illusion before he joined vile, I noticed his amazing unit control -- as did Atticus (former tQ manager, was the vile manager at the time). When we built Clash, MoOk had extremely solid gameplay but nothing special about him. Once he came to the US, we spent copious amounts of time teaching him the small tactics he would need to succeed (huge credit to xSixShadow who spent months coaching MoOk). Another special talent we saw was Messiah in Clash. He had incredible burrowed baneling usage (on par with Leenock IMO), but was in school and never able to fully realize his dreams.
While that makes sense, But going back what exposed those players to you in the first place? To allow you to find them, Take state for example, Hes a good example for that question as ive played against him several times before he joined tQ and during the tQ era we clashed a few times in tournaments as well. surely he didnt stand out initially because of his special talent that let you find him. As im sure no one said hey, look this guy has amazing sentry control for an unknown player. There had to be something that let you look into him as a player and scout this. We were all top level players in tQ and watched a lot of replays for our games. We would then talk to those players, such as StRa, in ladder/tournament games. That was when the scene was extremely undeveloped and the group of us (all BW guys) still had quite a few connections. Nowadays, it's pretty much by recommendation or if someone approaches us. The players will recommend me to look at someone, I'll grab the head coach and we'll run through some games with the player. If we see something we like, we'll take a chance. If not, keep working hard and talk to us again in the future.
And that's the problem, isn't it? If you don't know somebody, or they don't have a mutual connection, it's much harder for the player to find a place. That's what people are trying to solve.
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If you are good and play ladder games, people watch replays. Online cup participation helps too.
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But do you really think that's a level playing field? There's always going to be favoritism towards people you know. It's natural, and it happens all the time. Replays and a few practice games are great, but they're not enough to give you the full sense of a player, really.
And as for online cups, the major ones are still all being dominated by TSL Zergs, so not being able to break out in those should hardly stop someone from being considered.
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Siphonn qualified for WCS USA. That was the first I had heard of him. I started to look more closely at his results and he had enough of a resume for me to look at his play. I had him play top players from EU and KR, he did well and we picked him up.
I met KC on ladder when I was still a player for Clash. I found his drop harass annoying but never thought anything of it. I ran into him a few months later and he absolutely steamrolled me with his drops and tactics. I put him through the same process as Siphonn, he did well and I let him join on the condition he fit well with the team.
There are tons of skilled players out there, so we are sure to make sure they fit in with the team first and foremost. That includes jookTo as well, and the guys all love him after MLG.
I didn't know any of these players personally, yet still brought them in. If I was favored towards people I knew, I would not be successful with my work. I feel I have done a pretty decent job building this team.
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Social constructs develop out of the need for them, simple as that. If something is not necessary, than a construct will not developed as based on needs and the willingness to adapt when necessary. There is currently no problem in the way pro players are signed to teams. Minor leagues are not needed. Minor League BubbleGum Chew, however, is delicious. Yar yar yar yar!!!
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EPT
