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On October 31 2012 05:54 Thorin wrote:
I realise for those of you who know ESL/IEM primarly from SC2 only this might seem like a new problem or something which will be resolved if some noise is made now, but as someone with many years of experience following ESL this is an absolutely systemic problem that as far as I can tell will never be resolved by ESL.
At this point in time I assume they have had a number of money leaks/sponsor problems which mean they are locked in a never-ending cycle of paying old debts with new money, which to be fair is a somewhat common problem amongst esports tournament organisers, because otherwise the only explanation I can see is gross incompetence, which definitely shouldn't be ruled out.
To give some simple examples, for game communities which are really small like CS:Source some of them say they haven't been paid for small cups etc. from many years ago, further back than these SC2 EPS tournaments. More disturbing is that in March of 2012 the IEM champions of 2010, who won the title in March of 2010, still hadn't received the bulk of their prize money from that 2010 win.
From my perspective the real issue here isn't the players not complaining/taking action, it's that ESL themselves haven't taken the appropriate action. The only way this kind of thing will stop is if big tournament organisers actually sue/seek legal action against big sponsors who promise a lot of money for a tournament and then don't pay. Perhaps they don't seek such action because they are afraid to scare off sponsors, in which case esports isn't as viable as they are pretending and we should accept that IMO, or perhaps the sponsor comes back with their own compromise, based on liquidity issues, and says they'll sponsor another tournament and pay it back in future. Whatever the reasons the problem needs to be nipped in the bud where it begins.
All of which doesn't justify the fact ESL habitually lies and claims they think the money is coming any minute, that they don't know it will be months and months or years and years. It also looks really bad the teams with the best pattern of hassling ESL seem to get their money before others do, making it all look like a game of shuffling money around to the grease the squeakiest wheels.
I think you got many points right, but not all. The problem is that ESL has alot of debt and is behind with paying with alot of things, so they have to borrow money, pay interest rates etc. and they just dont get out of that. Even if they are breaking even right now, they still dont have the extra money to pay up everything they owe.
The reason why they are in debt is i think not because sponsors dont pay them, but because of missmanagment in the past. That is also the reason why they fired alot of employees i think.
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On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
But it's not just EPS, it's also IEM, which has much higher prize pools and still the same problem (since they are both done by ESL)
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On October 31 2012 06:05 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. But it's not just EPS, it's also IEM, which has much higher prize pools and still the same problem (since they are both done by ESL)
IEM doesn't have that much more of a prize pool. Terribly low for a "Premier" tournament.
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On October 31 2012 05:26 AlternativeEgo wrote:
Feels like I red this topic one year ago.
a big thread about how ESL doesn't pay out happens a few times a year lol
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On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all.
ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^
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Good decision. Hope this helps them realise that waiting price money for months is just not right.
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ESL being really late with payments isn't news.
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2-3 years adjust for inflation. they owe you more....
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On October 31 2012 06:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^
i rather make a low estimate than a high one. I dont want to spread false rumours 
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I dont get how current sc2 pro's could decide in 2010 to go full time sc2 when they should've noticed prize money is not paid out (back then they didn't knew it would take 1-3 years)
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As some players already pointed out ESL has financial problems, so we shouldn't make the pitchforks ready until these players are paid. After that happened the forks can be thrown in my opinion
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On October 31 2012 06:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:57 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is justifiable to sue esl, i mean team alternate has all their player in eps, if they got to court together, i dont see how they can lose the trial.
i think the main problem is that esl has a lot of debt. I dunno.. if you add it up, all eps seasons for all countries since 2011. it could possibly be like 25,000 to 50,000 € aproximately. (just my own estimate, you could actually look up all the eps seasons and add up the price money.
If you sue them and force them to pay the money, i guess chances are quite high that they go bankrupt and nobody gets any money at all. ESL has ALOT more debt than that ^^
To be perfectly precise, they owed
€ 2.806.775,86 (2010)
€ 2.909.653,04 (2009)
€ 3.361.001,87 (2008)
At least, it seems like their situation is getting better.
source
edit: Obviously that's not only prize money. As a matter of fact pretty much all of it is debt from other sources.
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On October 31 2012 06:15 zimz wrote:
2-3 years adjust for inflation. they owe you more....
by law: 5% for each year they are behind
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That´s hurt the EPS. I mean, this seasion is running right now, and in this time, the 4. EPS cup is live, with 700 € Prize money. And all this money won't be paid out in 3 years. Such a shame for the German Players.
And i think that GoOdy did the right thing. I hope that we can see him more often, never the less!
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On October 31 2012 05:13 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story. I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once. But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND.
We already went through this a year ago. How much longer will people let ESL slide on this bullshit
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On October 31 2012 05:19 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Is it just me, or do posts like this "X player says Y" seem kind of like spam. If we cared what the person was doing/saying/whining about, we would follow their twitter/facebook. Now if there was a thread that collaborated all of the players who were upset with ESL's payment schedule or lack of one then it might be interesting to me.
there have been several players over time who have complained about ESL not paying/paying years late, even in WC3 days
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This is bullshit and somebody should take actions against this kind of scams.
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On October 31 2012 06:28 Pyloss wrote:
That´s hurt the EPS. I mean, this seasion is running right now, and in this time, the 4. EPS cup is live, with 700 € Prize money. And all this money won't be paid out in 3 years. Such a shame for the German Players.
And i think that GoOdy did the right thing. I hope that we can see him more often, never the less!
THe money gets paid out in roughly 1.5 years, not 3. lets not be unfair 
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On October 31 2012 06:31 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:13 Fusilero wrote:On October 31 2012 05:07 skeldark wrote:
Oo,
I think this belong in main not tournaments.
I never liked esl (because their confusing website ^^) but i thought they are one of the few that pay instant.
for the protocol:
Lets learn for the past once!
Lets wait until we hear the whole story. I don't think shit needs to get started, wait until ESL has something to say before we stick them on the cross and burn them all. We have to pros perspective, goody, cloud (And according to him his team mates) and ourk have now complained about ESL not paying so let's wait for the other for once. But that's no fun BURN THEM ALL TO THE GROUND. We already went through this a year ago. How much longer will people let ESL slide on this bullshit
What are you gonna do? Unless they get a huge influx of new sponsors and money, nothing will change and they'll continue to pay their debts after a few years.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a9dN0.jpg)
