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On October 23 2012 22:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 22:04 ReachTheSky wrote:
I like the new map. I would love it if there would be a completely new map pool though. That way we could see the strategies evolve on each map throughout the season which would be much more entertaining from a spectator point of view Problem is that it is quite hard to ensure that many maps are balanced each season. Especially with this season starting right away, there is no time for the players to figure things out.
This exactly. I always thought that there should be 4 GSL seasons per year, not 5 or 6. That way we could have a slightly drawn out schedule plus an off season, allowing to really figure out new maps and prepare some hidden strats. Would give more meaning to each championship title as well.
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4713 Posts
Whoever thinks we need even bigger maps in SC2 is killing eSports!
Jokes aside, bigger maps are actually becoming boring and repetitive as far as the meta game goes. They tend towards too much macro and not enough early aggression.
The best kinds of maps allow both early aggression and macro to happen, and the best games have always been the ones where action picks up early, but both players are so evenly matched that one can kill the other, and they macro up behind non-stop aggression.
Well, you just don't see that on bigger maps, its too hard to start early aggression and way too difficult to keep it going.
As for the new map, it looks very reminiscent of Daybreak. There is quite a distance from nat to 3rd, but that is offset by the large rush distance, which is made even longer by the rocks in the middle. There is sort of a half base in the middle as well.
The big difference between DB and this one though is that, you seem to have many more attack paths, and taking the middle expo actually doesn't grant 100% safety and zone control for your side of the map as the half base on DB does.
I'm looking forward to seeing how games will work on the map, I've already made my mind up that it will look quite similar to Daybreak, but once the 4th and 5th bases are taken it should start deviating in interesting ways.
Lastly, they can remove CK and Daybreak only once they remove all the lesser maps as well. In order of maps that should be removed it is Whirlwind, Entombed, Antiga, CK, Daybreak. I personally prefer to see an old but great map in the tournament, rather then a new but mediocre one.
For better or for worst, Antiga and Entombed have survived the test of time and provided us with great and memorable games, as well as not being statistically too favorable for any once race.
Sure Antiga has the problem of you having to fight for a 4th, and Entombed has the problem of giving you a easy 3rd. But apart from that they play out brilliantly, with action always going on. You can kind of split-map on Entombed, but its the good kind of split map since you can out-maneuver your opponent and pick him apart due to the open mid, while with Antiga, BLs are good, but not too strong and you can either starve the zerg out or again, out-maneuver him.
Really apart from those small flaws, Antiga and Entombed are great.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On October 23 2012 22:22 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 22:12 Lorch wrote:On October 23 2012 21:57 Fragile51 wrote:On October 23 2012 21:55 Lorch wrote:On October 23 2012 21:19 FakeDeath wrote:
Yes Ohana IS FINALLY REMOVED.
No more autowin for toss on that against zerg. How is Ohana more broken than antiga and entombed? Good to see a new map, I missed playing on something called bel'shir. Sad to see Ohana go I really liked that map, ah well knowing blizzard it'll be on ladder for atleast a year. Ohana PvZ was immortal all in all day every day, lategame PvZ was damn near unplayable. Personally i liked ohana the least out of all current maps so i'm glad it's gone. Well retarded Gateway allins being possible is more of a game issue imo. Antiga is even more broken for anything vs T, I would never want to play a ZvT on it and PvT is a nightmare too. Not saying Ohana didn't have issues and I agree that lategame ZvP is really hard for Zerg, but when maps like antiga are still in their pool I don't think Ohana should go. Funny thing is, statistically in PvZ it's quite Zerg favoured, I guess because it's near impossible to get a 4th for protoss too and then fight infestor brood on 3 base is too difficult. Hell, even TvZ is relatively balance 52.6% in Korea, 49.3% international. Ohana, however, is a statistical clusterfuck. International: TvZ: 42-52 (44.7%) ZvP: 41-60 (40.6%) PvT: 40-32 (55.6%) Korea: TvZ: 15-17 (46.9%) ZvP: 5-9 (35.7%) PvT: 5-11 (31.3%) Obviously not a big sample size compared to Antiga, but still...
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/548_ESV_Ohana_LE
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/548_ESV_Ohana_LE
your ohana stats are a bit off, haha
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On October 23 2012 21:19 GTR wrote:
Remove Ohana, but not Antiga or Entombed (or even Daybreak)?
Really?
Daybreak and Entombed are definitely better than Ohana. Antiga needs to fucking go though
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On October 23 2012 22:12 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 21:57 Fragile51 wrote:On October 23 2012 21:55 Lorch wrote:On October 23 2012 21:19 FakeDeath wrote:
Yes Ohana IS FINALLY REMOVED.
No more autowin for toss on that against zerg. How is Ohana more broken than antiga and entombed? Good to see a new map, I missed playing on something called bel'shir. Sad to see Ohana go I really liked that map, ah well knowing blizzard it'll be on ladder for atleast a year. Ohana PvZ was immortal all in all day every day, lategame PvZ was damn near unplayable. Personally i liked ohana the least out of all current maps so i'm glad it's gone. Well retarded Gateway allins being possible is more of a game issue imo. Antiga is even more broken for anything vs T, I would never want to play a ZvT on it and PvT is a nightmare too. Not saying Ohana didn't have issues and I agree that lategame ZvP is really hard for Zerg, but when maps like antiga are still in their pool I don't think Ohana should go.
I guess you're trolling? Ohana was bad for ZvP because of the Immortal/Sentry all-in, certainly not because of the late game (from Z perspective).
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On October 23 2012 22:23 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 22:22 snafoo wrote:On October 23 2012 22:12 Lorch wrote:On October 23 2012 21:57 Fragile51 wrote:On October 23 2012 21:55 Lorch wrote:On October 23 2012 21:19 FakeDeath wrote:
Yes Ohana IS FINALLY REMOVED.
No more autowin for toss on that against zerg. How is Ohana more broken than antiga and entombed? Good to see a new map, I missed playing on something called bel'shir. Sad to see Ohana go I really liked that map, ah well knowing blizzard it'll be on ladder for atleast a year. Ohana PvZ was immortal all in all day every day, lategame PvZ was damn near unplayable. Personally i liked ohana the least out of all current maps so i'm glad it's gone. Well retarded Gateway allins being possible is more of a game issue imo. Antiga is even more broken for anything vs T, I would never want to play a ZvT on it and PvT is a nightmare too. Not saying Ohana didn't have issues and I agree that lategame ZvP is really hard for Zerg, but when maps like antiga are still in their pool I don't think Ohana should go. Funny thing is, statistically in PvZ it's quite Zerg favoured, I guess because it's near impossible to get a 4th for protoss too and then fight infestor brood on 3 base is too difficult. Hell, even TvZ is relatively balance 52.6% in Korea, 49.3% international. Ohana, however, is a statistical clusterfuck. International: TvZ: 42-52 (44.7%) ZvP: 41-60 (40.6%) PvT: 40-32 (55.6%) Korea: TvZ: 15-17 (46.9%) ZvP: 5-9 (35.7%) PvT: 5-11 (31.3%) Obviously not a big sample size compared to Antiga, but still... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/548_ESV_Ohana_LEhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/548_ESV_Ohana_LEyour ohana stats are a bit off, haha
Oh god, I didn't see that, still, those are pretty messed up too!
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Russian Federation216 Posts
Wow why they remove Ohana... Really disappoint
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On October 23 2012 21:46 Kiyo. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 21:43 Dodgin wrote:On October 23 2012 21:40 Lylat wrote:On October 23 2012 21:33 Fragile51 wrote:On October 23 2012 21:31 X3GoldDot wrote:On October 23 2012 21:19 GTR wrote:
Remove Ohana, but not Antiga or Entombed (or even Daybreak)?
Really? daybreak is the best map atm no? Daybreak is a great map, and it's also old as fuck. I mean it's great that the map has endured for so long but it's time for something else, to be honest. Weird logic, if it's great why would you change it and risking having a bad map instead ? because watching games on the same maps forever is boring Maybe for some people, but I'd imagine mostly not. CS1.6 had the same maps for most of its esport lifetime. DotA/LoL use the same single map and they're fine. Do football fields get boring because they all look the same?
BW changed maps pretty often and it was definitely a nice change of pace.
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Antiga needs to go! 
Really like Abyssal City and Vestige
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On October 23 2012 22:17 Laurens wrote:
I'm surprised only 1 person has pointed out that this is very similar to daybreak, but rotated..
Well if you look at base locations on the minimap, yes, but its very different in layout.
I think that if you take the third with 8m 2g, you can't secure a fourth that easily, and its going to be the half-base fourth.
However if you take the half base as your third, I think you can take the 4th under/above the mains.
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reminds me alot of Match Point
edit: yeahhhh ohana is gone!
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Wow that map looks nice :3
I seriously love how the 3rd looks.
I would really love to see Antiga or Cloud Kingdom gone soon, I've seen so many games on those maps
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How do you take a 3rd PvZ on this map o_0
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Bel'Shir Vestige looks amazing and at a glance it looks really balanced
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Sigh, another boring NR20 season of PvZ coming up T_T
I really wish the GSL wouldn't worsen the metagame further with their maps.
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If we don't remove antiga and entombed from tournament map pools I'm going to light myself on fire in protest.
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On October 23 2012 23:23 Glurkenspurk wrote:
If we don't remove antiga and entombed from tournament map pools I'm going to light myself on fire in protest.
We're right behind you on that one. Riiiiight behind you.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I actually kinda like Antiga now, because the games there are so different/funny/terrible
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wow u guys really want terrans to die lol
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Not auto-3rd makes me instantly like this map. I'm wondering how mech will work out on it. Also, I was hoping for more new maps, because Daybreak gets just way too boring. Remember when they swapped all the maps in consequent OSLs? I would love to have that introduced in GSLs too.
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EPT
