|
did not read the whole thread, but i hope i can contribute something
1.+3.
Why not compare viewer attraction of esports to normal sports.
What SC is missing is a definite Championship. I dare to suggest that LoL has as many viewers as it does (partly) because following LoL is so clear-cut. There is a championship. There is the championship. Teams fight for participation, there is progress, teams falling out, and then a winner.
In other sports you always(!!) have a sort of championship. The one Tournament everyone (everyone) tries to attend. Be it Olympics, World Championships, or other things.
Starcrafts ultimate measure of skill is the GSL. But the GSL has a completely different structure than commonplace Championships. As the name suggests, it is a League. Thats not a bad thing, you need a league for people whose capacity isn't filled with just watching a championship, but the broad mass doesnt have time and or motivation to follow a league.
Starcraft is missing A CHAMPIONSHIP. The one and only tournament, that is THE measurement for greatness.
That is GSL at the moment, but as i said, GSL doesn't appeal to the mass as a championship would.
Blizzard is trying to establish the WCS, but their first try, as far as i can tell, is not getting enough attention from the really skilled players as it would have to to be what SC2 needs. Too many faces who are clearly some of "the best" are already missing (mainly MVP), due to schedueling or other unfortunate mishaps. This year WCS won't be able to fill the gap.
edit: Okay, i read back a bit, and i guess alot of people share the view i tried to express with my post.
I'd like to pick up a Term "Youtakenocandle" has used on the previous page.
6. Centralization
|
On October 15 2012 22:12 aka_star wrote:
6) stop letting non professional casters cast in tournaments, I find it so annoying listening to commentators go on about irrelevant things like warcraft 3 during an sc2 game especially for longer than 5 minutes, Or blizzard employs casting games making a mockery out of it because they don't know whats really going on. It might sound like a great idea behind the scenes but it comes across as an eye roll and I have to mute the stream which means I can't talk good about the tournament experience to other potential fans.
while i kind of get your point, you can't expect casters to only talk about the current game, all the time. especially when there isn't a game going on, but even when there is there is plenty of time in your average sc2 game where nothing needs to, or even can be, said about the current game beyond what we can see on screen ourselves.
On October 15 2012 22:31 winthrop wrote:
too many warcraft 3 style games.
you know what i mean
no, i don't know what you mean. could you elaborate maybe? 
|
Canada16217 Posts
On October 15 2012 23:27 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote:
did not read the whole thread, but i hope i can contribute something
1.+3.
Why not compare viewer attraction of esports to normal sports.
What SC is missing is a definite Championship. I dare to suggest that LoL has as many viewers as it does (partly) because following LoL is so clear-cut. There is a championship. There is the championship. Teams fight for participation, there is progress, teams falling out, and then a winner.
In other sports you always(!!) have a sort of championship. The one Tournament everyone (everyone) tries to attend. Be it Olympics, World Championships, or other things.
Starcrafts ultimate measure of skill is the GSL. But the GSL has a completely different structure than commonplace Championships. As the name suggests, it is a League. Thats not a bad thing, you need a league for people whose capacity isn't filled with just watching a championship, but the broad mass doesnt have time and or motivation to follow a league.
Starcraft is missing A CHAMPIONSHIP. The one and only tournament, that is THE measurement for greatness.
That is GSL at the moment, but as i said, GSL doesn't appeal to the mass as a championship would.
Blizzard is trying to establish the WCS, but their first try, as far as i can tell, is not getting enough attention from the really skilled players as it would have to to be what SC2 needs. Too many faces who are clearly some of "the best" are already missing (mainly MVP), due to schedueling or other unfortunate mishaps. This year WCS won't be able to fill the gap.
It's not Blizzard fault that Mvp chose to go to IEM, and I'm pretty sure him and nestea went to iem since LG was their hosting sponsor booths or whatever and mvp/nestea had to be there. WCS definitely is the tournament to win if they do it every year or so, that and maybe Blizzard cup if they are still doing that.
|
1+3+5
Oversaturation is a serious 'first world problem'.
Esports is growing and you can't watch every single tournament like in the early days of SC2/BW? Deal with it!
I would appreciate a reliable news source, maybe a daily/weekly newsshow for people to keep up with the recent results.
|
On October 15 2012 22:12 aka_star wrote:
6) stop letting non professional casters cast in tournaments, I find it so annoying listening to commentators go on about irrelevant things like warcraft 3 during an sc2 game especially for longer than 5 minutes, Or blizzard employs casting games making a mockery out of it because they don't know whats really going on. It might sound like a great idea behind the scenes but it comes across as an eye roll and I have to mute the stream which means I can't talk good about the tournament experience to other potential fans.
Professional casters? Use that term loosely. I think the word you are looking for is experienced casters.
As for the casters. I think some of you guys are probably getting way too comfortable with the casters we have now which is very hit and miss but guess what? It's like that for every sport. You get so attached to one voice that as soon as you hear another you start crying like a baby because it's not your mother.
|
It's not just over saturation but the amount of games as well. BW was big in Korea because it followed the same model of regular professional sports, having games spaced out as opposed to having them played over a single weekend. Single weekend tournaments just have too many games to follow, and it doesn't help if these tournaments occur more than once a month. Even every month might be too much.
The other issue is that many fans insist on Bo3 for round robin leagues and Bo7 for elimination series. Having the better player win should not be the only consideration when designing a tournament. A study of professional leagues show that many people don't bother watching until the latter games of the series and only watch if the series is close at that point.
|
Cool post, I definitely think that "viewership fatigue" is detrimental to eSports and is a byproduct of a very passionate community that just got so damn excited for eSports to become something legitimate with the rising success of games like SC2, LoL, Dota 2, etc. The problem is that I feel like we created something that is only for the hardcore fans and hard to maintain interest in as a casual fan. In order to stay up to date and interested in any one eSport (never mind more than one game), you need to be seriously invested in it. I mean you need to watch tournaments regularly, watch all the shows that air nearly every day, play the game actively, watch player streams, read the forums, and doing all that and maintaining a busy and active life outside of your eSports interests is HARD.
Personally, I have almost entirely stopped watching StarCraft over the past few months simply because I don't have the time anymore... I still love the game but I don't have time to play enough to maintain a high skill level, I can't watch most tournaments because its very time consuming, I don't watch the Day9 Daily hardly ever anymore because it would consume the little bit of free time I have each night. The only thing I still do actively really is read the forums and that's because I can pick out the interesting topics and read them at my convenience.
I think having tournaments in general is part of the problem. An SC2 tournament is a marathon for everyone involved -- the players, the casters, and yes, the viewers too. I can't dedicate Friday night, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday to watching MLG 99% of the time. I would love to, but I just can't. And that is just one tournament! If I were to keep up with the scene entirely I'd have to watch SC2 almost every day for multiple hours a day. No compare that to competitive sports, like baseball, football, basketball -- they don't have tournaments, they have leagues. One centralized league where the best of the best play for large amounts of money in a long, sustained season. Look at GSL, Proleague, OSL -- the most successful StarCraft (1 or 2) tournaments out there in the most popular eSports country. They are all centralized leagues, not really "tournaments" per se. A league is much easier to follow than a bunch of sporadic tournaments that are scattered all over the world and all over the internet. Having one reliable place to go and watch SC2 games and not needing to watch every day to keep up is important to keep more casual viewers interested and invested. Once eSports can do that, that is when it will truly thrive and become legitimate.
|
for me it is like this:
in real sports, i don't get much analytics, because the game does not require that much anyway. It requires one passionate guy, often times fed by some stats and general knowledge about the players/teams. Even though the games are way longer than one game of SC2, they keep it up, and have way less downtime (there is no building up for the first 4 minutes, where literally nothing happens. There are boring games, but the guy makes it still entertaining to listen to).
In SC2, i cannot see the entire map. Often times, stuff gets missed by the observer, or i can't see stuff i want to (as in how many workers per base, for example). This complexity makes me often times wish i could observe myself, at least "offline" tournaments where players can't stream cheat.
Furthermore, most actual casters call themselves analytical casters. They bore me, as i seem to come to a different conclusion than them in every most analysis they do, and they are still just plain wrong way too often. Thus i do not listen to them anymore anyway.
Therefore, it is not the amount of content available, but rather the quality of casters. A good caster can still often times make a plat duel feel like a professional game, and worth my while to watch it. Also, usually i would go to TL to check on upcoming events or current casts etc. But since they added Dota 2, i am often times confused and have to check into the stream to see what's going on. Plus, a database of tournaments and links to where i can watch VODs would help.
But mostly, it is about the casters.
|
For this to be totally effective, you need an international group that sanctions SC2. Otherwise, what's to stop organizations from hosting events without considering the general ESports calendar.
|
I don't think TOO many tournament is the underlying cause. If a tournament out shines another one, it's probably as you said, post production, hype, casters/players personality. Therefore instead of saying there are too many tournaments, I think the better phrasing are there are too many (small) tournaments with very little production.
|
I think there are definitely too many tournaments to watch and get excited about all of them, but they're not all equal. I watch GSL pretty consistently, and I watch MLG/IPL/Dreamhack if I'm free that weekend. That's about it. While it's true that there are tons of tournaments, that doesn't take away from GSL finals for me, because it's clear to me that that's the most prestigious thing out there right now.
What I think would make a lot of the smaller tournaments more interesting was if they differentiated themselves somehow. If some of the smaller tournaments made themselves into NA- or EU-only tournaments, that would in some ways make them more interesting. Or if NASL said you can't play in both NASL and GSL. I wouldn't mind watching a "minor league" game sometimes (though obviously it won't come close to GSL), but I'd rather watch a "minor league" game that really sought to decide something meaningful (best American player, best player who doesn't play full time, best new player, etc.) than just watching a tournament that is 99% bad players but also has MC. Those tournaments are just boring forgone conclusions. Who wins is more about who is more willing to deal with jet lag (or server lag) than actual skill.
Of course, all the other things mentioned (production quality, hype, etc.) would help too, but I think they're independent from the tournament saturation question.
|
I mailed it
Very curious what will be coming from this initiative
|
maybe i lost my passion but i really do feel that we are hurting from oversaturation of tournaments
there's a new tournament every weekend and i have a hard time staying hyped for each and every one 
|
On October 15 2012 23:31 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 23:27 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote:
did not read the whole thread, but i hope i can contribute something
1.+3.
Why not compare viewer attraction of esports to normal sports.
What SC is missing is a definite Championship. I dare to suggest that LoL has as many viewers as it does (partly) because following LoL is so clear-cut. There is a championship. There is the championship. Teams fight for participation, there is progress, teams falling out, and then a winner.
In other sports you always(!!) have a sort of championship. The one Tournament everyone (everyone) tries to attend. Be it Olympics, World Championships, or other things.
Starcrafts ultimate measure of skill is the GSL. But the GSL has a completely different structure than commonplace Championships. As the name suggests, it is a League. Thats not a bad thing, you need a league for people whose capacity isn't filled with just watching a championship, but the broad mass doesnt have time and or motivation to follow a league.
Starcraft is missing A CHAMPIONSHIP. The one and only tournament, that is THE measurement for greatness.
That is GSL at the moment, but as i said, GSL doesn't appeal to the mass as a championship would.
Blizzard is trying to establish the WCS, but their first try, as far as i can tell, is not getting enough attention from the really skilled players as it would have to to be what SC2 needs. Too many faces who are clearly some of "the best" are already missing (mainly MVP), due to schedueling or other unfortunate mishaps. This year WCS won't be able to fill the gap. It's not Blizzard fault that Mvp chose to go to IEM, and I'm pretty sure him and nestea went to iem since LG was their hosting sponsor booths or whatever and mvp/nestea had to be there. WCS definitely is the tournament to win if they do it every year or so, that and maybe Blizzard cup if they are still doing that.
I didn't even imply that it was Blizzards fault. Its just how it is (yeah, i believe it was due to sponsoring too)
|
Do I just send an email with the number that I think most accurately describes my thoughts on the subject or how do I vote for one of the answers?
Sorry if I misunderstood something here.
|
Great initiative.
And I think oversaturation is a problem, but for me not the biggest.
I lost my passion for SC2 mainly due to some lowlives in the community calling sponsors whenever they see something they don't like and sponsors actually reacting to them.
Often I don't really feel like being part of such a community anymore. Still watch GSL though and anything GD related because they don't care about sponsor callers.
|
Quality is a key aspect for me. I'll get up at 5am to watch the GSL, in part because of the quality. The big tourneys should always be trying to outdo each other, or at least themselves. This doesn't have to be fireworks, simple things like: filing in downtime with Husky videos, or interviews is better than a cut scene and elevator music. Having timers show up so the viewer knows how long till the next match, or multiple streams to lessen down time.
Quantity will be sorted out by the market. It's great that we have a lot of events having little King of the Hills, or a daily fight club for weekday viewing. A lot of event do need to do better job showing their broadcast times and dates.
More money, it's fine to have a $50 prize for a weekday event and somewhat larger prizes for a semi pro event. But some tournaments that cover the whole weekend and draw worldwide players/audience need something significant to fight for. For me $5,000 is not a first place prize worthy of some one flying around the world and fighting through a hundred other players. The $20,000 prizes really drive home that this is a significant win that will affect the players entire year.
Getting more money is possible, it just takes effort by all of us. Blizzard can advertise, link and allow viewing straight from the game. Even better would have all their games linked so a WoW player who has SC2 checked could get a notice in game that Idra's MLG match started.
Tournaments can implement TB's idea of having team sponsors icon show in the overlay. Tournament sponsors can have images in the map, and even cooler in the map's little signs Metropolis had little stores with moving signs and billboards that can be used. Especially if they adjust it to fit the scene, on a Terran map this may mean dirtying up the billboard.
Viewers can help by only being positive to sponsors. If the sponsor spent money on something you liked maybe send them a nice thank you, click a link, like them on Facebook. If the event wasn't to your liking you may still thank the sponsor for doing their part or not, but do not use a negative. If the EG Master's Cup sucked or a player/caster was a jerk don't send a angry email to Monster, send the complaints to Incontrol and tell him he wasn't.
Edit- Please use sponsors as a tie breaker for purchases and tell them when you do. When watching MLG and a add for Dr.Pepper comes up you will feel bad for wasting money on RC.
|
It´s funny how I feel that way since like 2011. I mean back than I wachted everything since it got to the point of oh another dreamhack/mlg/gls... Same players same production. With diverse production and such it got alot better, but nowadays I just watch 1/5 of all tournaments.
|
We simply need a good regular team league.
|
I think it's mostly 2+3. When the GSL was the only premier tourny, it was easy to keep up with. Now there are so many premier tournaments. There's no way to watch them all, so I have to choose, which leads to point 3. Dreamhack and Assembly set the bar high, with free 1080p 60fps streams and little delays between games. I also make time for the GSL when there's matches I want to see, which will usually be less than 10 matches a season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
