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I'd like to say it's a mixture of (2) and (5).
(2) is pretty key not for just viewers but players. If we shuttle players back and forth overall practice and performance suffers. Jetlag, travel time, and overall mental pressure is taxing and takes away from the quality of the games. Stability is a huge factor in gameplay. Viewers also have limited time, but this is not as large of an issue. A good portion of viewers can watch a game and get chores or menial work done, so (2) is not a large factor for us.
(5) is half-true. There are too many events that are too spread out. Korean E-Sports took off because it was so centralized that you could viably have 8-12 teams duking it out many days a week. While this increased the overall quantity of games, this gave players time to rest and research in between, raising the overall quality. Viewers could be more selective of the games they watched and not feel obligated to watch everything. A great example would be OSL/MSL. They had a good mix of individual events and team events, so you could watch a decent number of games to be satisfied without watching all the games. By packing a single tournament into such a tight timeframe (1-4 days), viewers feel like they have ONLY that amount of time to watch, and the emotional cost of missing out on a game is far greater. This was illustrated best at the League of Legends Season Two World Championships. Personally, I felt like I wasted a whole Saturday watching a series that didn't complete. My schedule clashed for the day they rescheduled and I lost out on a game and a half, costing me time I could have used for other duties AND the chance to watch live.
(6) Players need to pick their events and battles. Rather than travel everywhere for everything, they're going to have to say "no" to more events. This makes that "Star Player" on a team shine more; while he doesn't play as often as everyone else, when he does play he's cashing in his value for viewers and his brand/label/himself. I remember some time ago, Creolophus retired but played later one because he was the returning championship from the year before. Because he played a limited amount, watching him play was valuable.
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I pretty much fully agree with this statement, bar the end of point 5, the cycle of life of starcraft i don't feel is self perpetuating.
I think it is more like point 4 where you state that it needs to be addressed and rigorously tried to be improved and implementation of better community morals and values. SO that as a community we shift the mental stance from just a game, to a way of life, other esports do this, such as poker and other online gaming platforms.
It doesn't have to be big changes but if more people just try and contribute towards starcraft by getting it out there, then it would be looked as less by the general public as a casual sport, but an actual career sport.
So thanks for putting this out there so that people who can and want to help improve the community and Esports economy can have somewhere to go and speak there mind.
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the more tourneys the better (for me as a viewer), at least i don't have to view them, right ?.
It's only a problem for professional players and tourney organisators trying to earn money, they cannibalize viewership and income.
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2. Without a doubt 2. For the love of god 2!!!
This has been the case for me ever since the second year of sc2's release. There was so much to watch that I didn't have time to keep up with any of it. I'm starting to reignite my interest in sc2 now that things are dying down, but there are still way too many smaller tournaments and not enough really really big ones.
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While all of these things would help, I find this quote from veir to be spot on:
On October 15 2012 20:53 Velr wrote:
6. The game needs to be more diverse, more fun and more exciting.
There have been several good posts here on TL about how to make this a better game, and thus ultimately a better E-sport. gretorp made this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376188
Barrin made this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242
There are a few specific units that really makes this game a bit dull to watch, because they have a very specific role and not an all round role, which creates creative use of this unit. Sentries, infestor and ghost's comes to mind. Especially PvZ atm seems to be so focused around forcefield, vortex vs. infestor + broodlord it has become a ridiculous.
On a sidenote, you Grubby are quite entertaining to watch =)
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I barley watch sc2 anymore - I used to spend several hours a week watching and far more playing for well over a year. I now watch a lot of dota2.
I am not really sure why. I suspect i has to do with what blizz did to the game.
One thing i found was that watching a tournament with some kid casting from his bedroom saying things that were just nonsense or so ambiguous put me off watching entire tournaments.
PPV on MLG really put me off that. I bought a years subscription to GOM and was enjoying it untill they brought out all kinds of other tourneys i didnt have subscription to and so felt ripped off.
I overwatched day 9 ... i would love to kow how many of his viewers have been watching non stop from day1 ... I actually feel bad about not watching day9, i am not sure when i stopped. I suspect it all coincides with stopping playing which was when blizz made huge UI changes that meant my carefully crafted config for quality:performance that I had tweeked was ruined.
I think 2 + 4 tbh.
However it is unreasonable to expect a tournament organiser to say ... hmm i think there are too many so i wont bother. If that attitude held then noone would ever do anything. However why everyone wants to do the next big tourney is beyond me. Thi sis where you get into the idea of a division. There are pros and semi pros and there is everyone else. Personally I dont give a fuck about everyone else and don't want to have tournements that pros cant really play at due to scheduling diluting my attention.
An idea of seasons might work. IE 2 months on, 2 months off. Just look at how WPT totally oversaturated poker broadcasting.
I suspect from your posts that you are trying to create a governing body ... as long as it has viewer and player interests at heart that would be awesome. Sponsors need maximum viewer numbers.
One big problem i have is with over hype. So many tournaments are hyped as THE next big thing. Crap games are covnerted into masterpieces by casters.
IMO my view there is nothing wrong with a game being casted in calm way. Player A did this: player b scouted and reacted correctly. From here on player A should loose ... and he did. Great execution from both, just got out read and lost as he should. However what i would hear is a caster pretending that its close and that A can come back just to make it exciting.
This is what i liked about artosis (and tasteless) especially, hed call it as he saw it. But when someone who you do not have a gigantic amount of respect for does this it can come accross as trying to pretend they could do better or know better. Huge put off (c.f. kid in bedroom).
So i think everything got way too OTT and I just cba being force fed bs. Eg can day9 cast a game now without over enunciating?
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Why not go for a soccer-style season format?
For example, you've got a few leagues, all with say, 16 players in it. Premier league, first division, second, etc.
Each season, the top 3 of any league get promoted (except in the highest of course), the bottom 3 get demoted.
Every week, 2 matches are played (tue/wed or wed/thu, to not interfere with regular tournaments too much) by each player as a bo3 or bo5, untill every player has played every other player in a given league.
If my math is correct, this would mean that after 8 weeks and 15 playdays all players have played their matches. The one with the most points wins the season, simple. The 16th day could be used for playoffs or something similar if necessary.
Although....
Instead of a bo3/bo5 format, maybe a time limit could be imposed. Imagine a time limit of 1 hour of real time, where the timer only runs during the games (not between maps). Players play as many games as needed to fill the hour. When the timer runs out, the players finish their current game, after which the scores are tallied normally.
In this format, draws are possible, which can add excitement for both players and audience as to who might win the season overall. It also makes variable scores possible. A player could win 1-0 or even 10-0 (if he's a supercheeser), or playes could draw 1-1 or 2-2 (though the time limit should probably be more like 75 minutes rather than 60 for this).
A win would award 2 or 3 points to the winner, a draw awards 1 point to both players. At the end of the season, points are tallied - The player with the most points wins. If there is a tie, the player with the most match wins wins. If there is still a tie, the player with the most map wins wins. If there is still a tie, the 16th day could be used to resolve it between the parties involved.
I think this kind of format could really work, though these kind of tournaments should not run concurrently as it would lessen the significance aswell as the availability of the players involved. I can imagine GomTV's stuff working similarly to this, where you have the leagues in place (S, A and B) aswell as the time frame.
Can you imagine watching several streams on and off to check their progress? Where on the last day, multiple matches can have a great impact on the championship? This would add a lot of 'spice' to the competition imho, especially if the timed format is used.
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I think we need a sports center type show for SC2. I want to see highlights and results with competent casters.
Lets look at a typical show of sports center (these times are 100% made up)
10 minutes talking about big game highlights and analysis
10 minutes talking about a few other games highlights maybe and inteview
10 minutes talking to expert about a past game or a future game
10 minutes talking about drama crap
5 minutes talking about
15 minutes of commercials
So if we have a weekly show that can talk about a few of the bigger tournaments/matches that happened over the last week and some stuff that is coming up (like a GSL finals or MLG or whatever) while focusing on clips of matches, I think it will help me and other casual viewers in a number of ways
1) keep up with player trends
2) keep up with where the good players are playing and when
3) High production values (scripted, edited, rational thoughts, guest experts, etc)(doesn't need a studio, or fancy graphics)
4) Easy gateway into watching more SC2
How I think a typical show would go
10-15 minutes talking about the week's big match (whether it was well played, a GSL finals, big time players)
Showing clips, player's comments about match, analysis and expert opinions, and what those players have been up
to and are going to be doing soon
15-20 minutes talking about other matches form the week
Showing clips, showing scores, showing players recent records, stats, showing big plays, impressive micro, smart
builds, or lucky moments
5 minutes tips and strategies to improve (especially if these can be obtained from well known players)
5 minutes Showing how players have been doing this week. (for example lets say no Squirtle games were shown, This
would show that Squirtle went 5-3 this week he was able to beat Hack in the GSL code A round of 24
[ not Squirtle's real record]
10 minutes of commercials
this leaves 5-15 minutes in an hour long show.
Problems to overcome
1) This would require an extraordinary amount of effort and collaboration to pull off well ( games watched, show cripted, edited, possible charts and graphs made.
2) Getting permission to use games from the top tournaments may be hard or impossible
3) I think record it on Sunday and re run it several times through the week would be the best way to let many people watch it, or through VODs
4) getting actual expert opinions
I think this could be a very natural guiding arrow for those who wish to stay up to date on the SC2 scene, watch clips of beautiful SC2 plays, and learn about the metagame. I am very excited by this Idea and hope that somebody more talented than me can pull it off.
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Canada3 Posts
Tournament oversatuation?
Personally, it is a "yes" -- which I combat with only watching GSL and the occasional MLG.
I think for SC2 to grow into a bigger spectator eSports, you have to take care of the 30-year-olds like me. We are the people who were around playing SC1 when it first came out in '98. We understand gaming and get nostalgic about "the good old days" and willing to spend money to relive our youth by watching SC2.
But we are also people with full-time jobs, loans, rents or mortgages, and family.
We can't stay up to start watching GSL live at 2am, because we have to wake up at 6am for the commute. We can't go to barcraft all day Saturday to watch MLG until we get sick of it, because junior has soccer practice and piano lessons on Saturdays.
In other words, we haven money but we don't have TIME.
When time is of a premium, we are picky. We only have time for the equivalent of ESPN SportCenter daily; watching any actual games will be as sparing as following our own NFL team. And most likely on-demand.
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Hey I don't think we need less tournaments. We need less repetitive games at these tournaments. Lets face it-- every map is three base along the backside either in a triangle or line, with the natural being unharrassable. Most zerg wins are now in the form of a bl/ infestor army. Most terran opening now involve a gasless expand. And most pvz wins are all-in or vortex. With more interesting games comes more viewers, more viewers = more money, more hype etc. If the games are more interesting to watch, ie not the same thing every time, all the rest (production, post production, increase prize-pool) will follow. Very simple... its not over-saturation.... its oversaturation of the same thing every time.
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The problem with tournaments is that everyone wants to have "the best of the best" players and that is rather stifling the game, because you only get to see "the Korean style" and dont give other styles a chance to develop itself on other continents. Thus there will always be the same types of games to be watched as a viewer and this makes it rather boring in the end.
I have said it a few times already: Perfection is boring, because you can figure out the likely outcome from the numbers of units and resources and such. Players who are not that perfect will make/allow for greater mistakes and/or greater awesome comebacks for example.
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My thoughts are mixed with several posts already done.
I'm also close to 30 and have a lot of other activities, i still watch some but i don't see as much as i would like sometimes.
Also think the competition should evolve, someday, to an organized scheme similar to soccer like ChromeBallz said. There's a lot of scattered tournaments with no relation between them, that also as mentioned try to get they best they can to play (understandable considering that's what most want to see). The only existent relations i'm aware of are more agreements, due to business, than anything else. The eSF seemed to be more towards making rules between teams, trades, etc...
There's no regional (not saying country because don't think we have the player base to support that yet) entity, governed by a global one (that should just be like a group of each of those entities), to whom all tournaments should be registered to, and supervised. So there's a scaling of levels, possibilities of going up and down and global tournaments that would pick the best teams/players from each every X amount of time, like a world cup or a blizz like world championship series. But on a much bigger and organized scale.
Towards something like that is what i hope esports will head to someday. Think it would create stories, roots, etc.. much better but don't know if it would be embraced by an esports community or not. Am allowed to dream however :D
edit: Ah, also since there's so many and so frequent tournaments it feels the champion achievement doesn't feel as important.
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Most successful spectator sports have one dominate league that is considered the best. Having several leagues that are on par with each other waters down the talent. In Korea(until recently not sure how KESPA and the BW players will affect this) the "big leagues" is code S. Code S has all of they best players in the same league. There is rarely an event outside of Korea that can even say it has all of the best non-Koreans.
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I agree with everyone saying 2, that there are just so many tournaments that they all kind of lose their hype.
There is another issue as well though, and that's that so many games are the same now. PvT games now are very similar to PvT games from about 6 months ago, almost every PvT I see I feel like I've seen it before. The other matchups suffer from this too.
The reason I mention this is that the two together are a killer combo. When the games feel the same AND there are so many tournaments it drains the excitement.
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I also disagree that there is over saturation. I want to be able to view games when I like, with games involving the race(s) I play or players I like.
Currently, quite often there is no interesting content available when I want to watch.
I don't understand people saying they are busy and the large number of tournaments streamed is a problem. Less tournaments being streamed will just make it harder to find a game to watch during that limited amount of time when you are free.
I'm a Starcraft fan but it's not so important that I'm going to schedule a particular day/time of the week to watch, that's outdated television era thinking. When I'm free I'll watch, and then if I like a show try to make time to catch the finals.
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For me it's #2. With so many tournaments it's so hard to really know which, if any, should count more than the others. They are all different formats too. Some tournies you know who you will play beforehand and others you don't. Some you have better maps than others or longer series to prepare for.
GSL is definitely the most prestigious tournament but I'm still not too interested in it because I can't relate to most of the players. MLG is probably the best non GSL tournament in terms of bragging rights. But even so, there are several MLGs each year.
I would like to see pro players playing in less tournaments so they could spend all their time preparing for a few major ones with huge prize pools and lots of bragging rights if they do well there.
With so many tournaments around I just care less because it makes all of them seem less important. In my perfect world there would be a super bowl of SC2 tournaments every 6 months. All pro players would train their asses off with this one tournament as their ultimate goal. There would be a few other tournaments (maybe once a month) between the super bowl one that they could use as preparation and to see how they currently stack up with other players and the current metagame. The super bowl tourny would be longer and more involved that any tournament besides GSL. It would take several days or maybe a week and you might know some of your opponents beforehand, at least for the earlier stages. It would be a real grind to win and the results would give a more accurate power ranking for players.
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Im not really sure why everyone says #2? Sure there is alot of tournaments but you dont need to see all of them. Its better to have them more often so when the time suits you, then you can watch it. Look at any other sport, there are tournament matches everyday all around the globe. Cant watch them all of course, so focus on the once you would like to follow... For god sake there is a channel that only shows golf 24/7, golf!? And you complain that there is too many SC2 tournaments, geez!
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On November 08 2012 06:16 eSportBar wrote:
Im not really sure why everyone says #2? Sure there is alot of tournaments but you dont need to see all of them. Its better to have them more often so when the time suits you, then you can watch it. Look at any other sport, there are tournament matches everyday all around the globe. Cant watch them all of course, so focus on the once you would like to follow... For god sake there is a channel that only shows golf 24/7, golf!? And you complain that there is too many SC2 tournaments, geez!
Yea, it's convenient if all you want is to be able to see someone playing SC2 somewhere out there. However, if you're mostly interested in top flight awesomeness, or some specific subset of awesomeness, it would be nice if there was a worldwide standard similar to the few BW star leagues with set time frames. MLG, Dreamhack and GSL are all viewed as major tournaments but they all have varying formats and styles. Then you have other popular tourneys, such as NASL, Homestory Cup, IEM, a few LANs, etc, that may also be included in that group depending on your viewpoint not to mention the myriad of other crap that's online on any given day. For me personally, I really love the GSL, and I wish I could watch it live regularly. I'm not really into much else because the formats for many of the other tournaments bother me greatly, but they generally have a lot of non-Korean players I like to follow. So I go through periods when I just bail on non-GSL content because it's not enjoyable trying to follow my players through so many tournaments of random stature.
Also, just because there's golf on 24/7 doesn't mean that there's ever any golf on that channel you particularly want to watch.
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I only watch GSL because of this:
- Long-lasting season makes the tension grow-up until the Finals, and makes every event a BIG THING
- 30 years old, not enough time to watch anything at odd hours and no opportunity to dedicate an entire week-end to it
- "Pretendigly-faceless" koreans >>> talentless foreigners. Who wants to watch the underdogs fighting against each other?
- For a reason I cant figure out, Artosis and Tasteless are the only decent casters in the community. The others just seem they are overdoing it or look like they dont know SHIT about the game (even if they do).
It is just my opinion, but other people might relate to some points I guess.
As for the "fatigue", yes I just dont want to spend any time to watch all these weekly "3-random-letter-named" irrelevant tourneys and I could not care less about who wins them as it means nothing unless the same guy is winning every other stuff everywhere.
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I can only talk for myself, but tournament oversaturation has been a problem for me.
This has been my own fault. I have watched much sc2, to the point where it all imploded and nothing looked interesting anymore. Seeying all the strats over and over again, for evenings at a time. It gets boring.
I would like to make a comparison with football. I watch one game in the weekend and during the championsleague season, I watch maybe two games during the week (every other week). And next to this, one big tournament every two years. Compared to sc2 this is very little content. But watching any more football would make it very boring, very fast. The positive here is that watching these few games keeps me up with the story development very well.
if there was just one big league that I could follow weekly it would greatly improve my personal interest, and I could see many more people interested in following this. I actually know some people that know about the sc2 pro scene, but they just dont follow it because its to overwelming. I cant talk for them, but I can see a serious possibility that more people would be interested if the overall scene is easier to follow with less time investment. Even the GSL can be a great time sink to follow well.
Another proposition was that community members needed to find more people to watch. From my experience there are many people that play custom games/team games, that hardly know about TL or the pro scene. If anybody wants to get more people watching, these people would be a great start. Just play some team games on low (diamond team) level and keep informing them about the sc2 pro scene.
I hope this is grade worthy 
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EPT
