GameSpot eSports has obtained information that says ESF teams and players have declined their invites to the MLG-KeSPA MvP Invitational. All six Korean players invited, among them Jang "MC" Min Chul, Fnatic's Han "aLive" Lee Seok, and Lee "PuMa" Ho Joon, are signed to western teams SK Gaming, Fnatic, and Evil Geniuses, respectively. Incredible Miracle's Hwang "LosirA" Kang Ho and Prime's Lee "MarineKing" Jung Hoon are said to have turned down invites.
“It was most likely because the ESF teams only got 8 invites and KESPA got 24”, FXOpen eSports Director Joshua Dentrinos told GameSpot, one of the teams part of the ESF. “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
Scarlett has also told GameSpot she will be dropping out due to lag issues with playing on the Korean server. More info at the jump.
Mod edit: FXO comments,
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Just to be super clear, No the ESF did not force Leenock to not play in the event, it was entirely his decision, I cannot speak for other players as I do not speak to them on a daily basis.
Interesting, but considering that players from outside KESPA had a lot of opportunities to play, it makes sense to me that there is more invites for KESPA players.
“It was most likely because the ESF teams only got 8 invites and KESPA got 24”, FXOpen eSports Director Joshua Dentrinos told GameSpot, one of the teams part of the ESF. “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
"We've got some really amazing players in the MvP Invitational”, MLG SVP of eSports Strategy Lee Chen told GameSpot. “I don't have any specifics to share about why eSF won't be participating int he tournament, but we're obviously fans of their teams and players and look forward to seeing them at future tournaments.” The ESF players are currently playing in MLG's regular Fall invite-only Online qualifiers.
So no one knows and we're just guessing, could be because of lack of invites [that's really it for the article].
edit:
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Hmm, wasn't going to watch due to PPV anyway, but I completely understand ESF declining. They were the ones that have been part of the SC2 scene longer and put more work into it and they got gypped in the number of spots.
I understand why ESF would want to pull out, i'm sure most people do as well. However this will cut the viewer numbers since it's going to be for the most part kespa man-handling foreigners.
MLG screwed them over here and the e-Sports Federation doesn't have nearly the same influence as KeSPA. This is one of their few ways of protesting that won't end up as mere hot air.
Let's see:
With the exception of the invited eSF players, all other eSF players have to play through two qualifiers against their fellow brethren. Only 8 players out of 58+ successfully got through the first qualifier; only 3 players out of 30 will qualify past the second. If we assume equal skill among all the participants and account for matchups and bracket possibilities, a player going through the two qualifiers has a lovely 1.38% chance of actually making it to the Fall Championship (the chances are slightly higher if double elimination format is involved). Of course your chances increase with your skill level, but all it takes is one bad Bo3 to ruin your shot. KR online tournaments are notorious for having lesser-known players knock out the big guns early in the brackets.
Meanwhile 24 KeSPA players got invited (i.e didn't have to qualify in any shape or form) to a 48-player invitational in which the top 8 get seeded into the Fall Championship. Judging from their current skill level and the skill level of their foreign competition (we could pretend that foreigners and Koreans are on a equal skill in the general sense, but let's not entertain fantasies here), it's likely that 5-7 of the seeds will be grabbed by KeSPA players. Since it's a Bo1 repeated 24 times, anomalies are far less problematic since they have less impact on overall results.
The winner of the MvP Invitational gets $10,000 and a seed to the Fall Championship. The winner of the KR/TW Invite-Only Qualifiers gets a seed into the Fall Championship and $0. If he was a winner of the Open Online Qualifiers, he would have played harder competition for worse rewards.
Historically KeSPA has barely lifted a finger to earn the favor of the international community. The MvP Invitational is not an example of "reaching out of the community", but looks suspiciously like KeSPA having their cake and eating it too. They get a tournament with stacked odds that showcase their players, a bizarre mixture of a showmatch and a qualifier that does not match the criteria of either.
So yes, eSF members are getting fucked over. They are playing harder qualifiers for less profit and smaller chances of actually qualifying for the Fall Championship, all this with 3x the participants. If worst comes to worst they will actually get less seeds to the tournament as well.
On September 27 2012 00:55 NovemberstOrm wrote: I understand why ESF would want to pull out, i'm sure most people do as well. However this will cut the viewer numbers since it's going to be for the most part kespa man-handling foreigners.
MLG has been about Koreans man-handling foreigners for over a year now...
On September 27 2012 00:49 Zorkmid wrote: Was PPV one of the issues?
I highly highly doubt it considering ESF players gained their fame through playing in a PPV tournament (GSL). In my opinion there's nothing wrong with PPV anyway, and I'd view MLG no differently if they took the GSL approach of offering a free version that made your eyes bleed or a paid version that doest.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
MLG screwed them over here and the e-Sports Federation doesn't have nearly the same influence as KeSPA. This is one of their few ways of protesting that won't end up as mere hot air.
With the exception of the invited eSF players, all other eSF players have to play through two qualifiers against their fellow brethren. Only 8 players out of 58+ successfully got through the first qualifier; only 3 players out of 30 will qualify past the second. If we assume equal skill among all the participants and account for matchups and bracket possibilities, a player going through the two qualifiers has a lovely 0.00138% chance of actually making it to the Fall Championship (the chances are slightly higher if double elimination format is involved). Of course your chances increase with your skill level, but all it takes is one bad Bo3 to ruin your shot. KR online tournaments are notorious for having lesser-known players knock out the big guns early in the brackets.
Meanwhile 24 KeSPA players got invited (i.e didn't have to qualify in any shape or form) to a 48-player invitational in which the top 8 get seeded into the Fall Championship. Judging from their current skill level and the skill level of their foreign competition (we could pretend that foreigners and Koreans are on a equal skill in the general sense, but let's not entertain fantasies here), it's likely that 5-7 of the seeds will be grabbed by KeSPA players. Since it's a Bo1 repeated 24 times, anomalies are far less problematic since they have less impact on overall results.
The winner of the MvP Invitational gets $10,000 and a seed to the Fall Championship. The winner of the KR/TW Invite-Only Qualifiers gets a seed into the Fall Championship and $0. If he was a winner of the Open Online Qualifiers, he would have played harder competition for worse rewards.
Historically KeSPA has barely lifted a finger to earn the favor of the international community. The MvP Invitational is not an example of "reaching out of the community", but looks suspiciously like KeSPA having their cake and eating it too. They get a tournament with stacked odds that showcase their players, a bizarre mixture of a showmatch and a qualifier that does not match the criteria of either.
So yes, eSF members are getting fucked over. They are playing harder qualifiers for less profit and smaller chances of actually qualifying for the Fall Championship, all this with 3x the participants. If worst comes to worst they will actually get less seeds to the tournament as well.
Very good write up. That summs it up pretty well. MLG jumped on the KESPA hype wagon as KESPA Pros switches over and is riding it now pretty hard. We'll see how this ends up, while IPL seems to be sticking with GSL/ESF, at least until IPL 5...
I support ESF, always.. They change their game because they had to/wanted to, but they shouldn't get any "special" treatment.. They are doing this wrong and MLG is going to get fucked with this mess..
Kespa doesn't deserve anything from us, atleast not more then GSL players..
Why can't we just have an actual statement from those parties instead of middlemen telling us maybe this, might be that, I cannot comment. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
On September 27 2012 00:49 Zorkmid wrote: Was PPV one of the issues?
I highly highly doubt it considering ESF players gained their fame through playing in a PPV tournament (GSL). In my opinion there's nothing wrong with PPV anyway, and I'd view MLG no differently if they took the GSL approach of offering a free version that made your eyes bleed or a paid version that doest.
having a free lower quality stream means no PPV also vods with high quality are free for the first game in a best of!!!
On September 27 2012 00:50 Nerchio wrote: Interesting, but considering that players from outside KESPA had a lot of opportunities to play, it makes sense to me that there is more invites for KESPA players.
Its called MLG vs Proleague so its obvious that kespa gets half of the seeds and MLG invites get the second.
Jesus MLG should just put up the production and prize money for a Kespa vs ESF league. I mean, the pride of MLG is basically GSL players + Stephano and few others.
On September 27 2012 01:04 Disposition1989 wrote: Why can't we just have an actual statement from those parties instead of middlemen telling us maybe this, might be that, I cannot comment. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Understandable, it's not like there gonna miss out on anything good anyway. Only first spot gets paid, waste of time to play to many matches for that imo.
On September 27 2012 01:04 Disposition1989 wrote: Why can't we just have an actual statement from those parties instead of middlemen telling us maybe this, might be that, I cannot comment. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
This exactly? There isn't even much said to be real honest.
Oh and btw this is not even fair, because KESPA guys only need to go to youtube or twitch, search the euro/NA player and watch his streams and vods and "know" how they play and on the other way around the best KESPA guys have 1-10 VODS..
On September 27 2012 01:04 Disposition1989 wrote: Why can't we just have an actual statement from those parties instead of middlemen telling us maybe this, might be that, I cannot comment. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Good point. A statement from Nestea or FXOBoss would go a long way right now.
On September 27 2012 01:04 Disposition1989 wrote: Why can't we just have an actual statement from those parties instead of middlemen telling us maybe this, might be that, I cannot comment. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Good point. A statement from Nestea or FXOBoss would go a long way right now.
“It was most likely because the ESF teams only got 8 invites and KESPA got 24”, FXOpen eSports Director Joshua Dentrinos told GameSpot, one of the teams part of the ESF. “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
that's FXOBoSs unless you mean an actual thread as a statement from him
On September 27 2012 01:09 Condor Hero wrote: Jesus MLG should just put up the production and prize money for a Kespa vs ESF league. I mean, the pride of MLG is basically GSL players + Stephano and few others.
Hahaha, I agree. A pure KeSPA vs. ESF vs. Stephano/Naniwa league would draw in more viewers.
Well if this all means, that ESF players concentrate more on IPL and maybe even european events, than I would be totally fine with it. The problem for MLG here is, that they have this deal with KESPA, which costed them some money for sure and now they try to make something out of it... I didn't like the news of this exclusive deal in the first place back when it was announced and this is just a consequence of it. :o The thing I'm wondering now is, how far this dispute will go...
where is it stated that they have to invite the same amount of both organizations? i mean cmon...its obvious that MLG wants to get attention by being the first foreign tournament where alot of kespa players are playing...
There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
On September 27 2012 01:23 TRAP[yoo] wrote: where is it stated that they have to invite the same amount of both organizations? i mean cmon...its obvious that MLG wants to get attention by being the first foreign tournament where alot of kespa players are playing...
It doesn't, but loyalty to those that helped build your brand would be better.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
This makes me so happy. The previous MLG money grabbing PPV incident, then the announcement of this one... has just made me a bit sour with them.
I'm always happy for more and more Starcraft but I thought this KESPA hand feeding invites was a bit silly, especially since they have proven to be worthy of qualifying through the same methods as every other SC2 player.
Wow, the ESF players should be happy they even have the opportunity to stomp some KESPA players (not that they necessarily would). With this type of policy, the future of the ESF teams seems quite grim.
On a side note, to anyone who said, "Wasn't going to watch anyway, PPV." What is wrong with you! Don't you at least want to see some results?!?!?
8 invites vs 24 kinda stings, but then again this is Kespa vs MLG, not MLG vs MLG. It should've been 24 seeds for Kespa, 24 seeds for non-Kespa korean teams and foreigners who live in korea (because of lag).
I understand why ESF would want to pull out, i'm sure most people do as well. However this will cut the viewer numbers since it's going to be for the most part kespa man-handling foreigners.
And a lot of mid-tier foreigners you have to say besides Stephano and maybe Thorzain and Nani, but both seem to be in a little slump. No Nerchio, Scarlett, Lucifron, Vortix, Kas etc.
On September 27 2012 01:32 KissMeRed wrote: Wow, the ESF players should be happy they even have the opportunity to stomp some KESPA players (not that they necessarily would). With this type of policy, the future of the ESF teams seems quite grim.
On a side note, to anyone who said, "Wasn't going to watch anyway, PPV." What is wrong with you! Don't you at least want to see some results?!?!?
Good job for ESF! Kespa demanding advantages in a tournament in exchange for competing is insane. And any tournament that agrees to it is even more insane. Frankly, this shouldn't just be ESF. No one should be willing to compete in a tournament where players aren't all on equal footing, regardless of what team they're on.
On September 27 2012 01:23 TRAP[yoo] wrote: where is it stated that they have to invite the same amount of both organizations? i mean cmon...its obvious that MLG wants to get attention by being the first foreign tournament where alot of kespa players are playing...
They don't have to make it fair, their also isn't anything saying ESF has to participate.
On September 27 2012 01:38 Herry wrote: I dont really get this move. just makes things worse, can't we just move past branding groups of players and tournaments. :/
KeSPA is the source of this, and good luck getting that to cease existence.
I agree with FXOBoss, ESF players have kept the MLG interesting, practically moved their SC2 division out of the black. And this is what they get in return.
On the other hand, from what I understand MVP is MLG-KeSPA joint venture so they can do as they please. Now watch how KeSPA retaliates by pulling their players out of GSL Season 5...
On September 27 2012 01:32 KissMeRed wrote: Wow, the ESF players should be happy they even have the opportunity to stomp some KESPA players (not that they necessarily would). With this type of policy, the future of the ESF teams seems quite grim.
On a side note, to anyone who said, "Wasn't going to watch anyway, PPV." What is wrong with you! Don't you at least want to see some results?!?!?
OSL has ESF vs Kespa, so does GSL.
I know, and the ESF should be happy to have chances to play KESPA in those tournaments too. These are obviously two opposing organizations. One quite established, KESPA. The other an upstart in comparison, ESF.
If ESF wants to survive in the industry, they need to win over KESPA players whenever possible. Otherwise, the best ESF players will just be poached by KESPA teams when the transfer ban is lifted and ESF teams will collapse.
On September 27 2012 01:40 Roman666 wrote: Wow, this war is getting better and better.
I agree with FXOBoss, ESF players have kept the MLG interesting, practically moved their SC2 division out of the black. And this is what they get in return.
On the other hand, from what I understand MVP is MLG-KeSPA joint venture so they can do as they please. Now watch how KeSPA retaliates by pulling their players out of GSL Season 5...
Oh how I would feel for Rain and wish to the gods he could leave and join <X> non-KeSPA team (but I guess he's locked)
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
Lol it is quite ironic because the first GOM/MLG partnership had 4 Koreans each seeded into super protective pools with all travel expenses paid and ESF teams back then didn't complain about biased seeding.
On September 27 2012 01:32 KissMeRed wrote: Wow, the ESF players should be happy they even have the opportunity to stomp some KESPA players (not that they necessarily would). With this type of policy, the future of the ESF teams seems quite grim.
On a side note, to anyone who said, "Wasn't going to watch anyway, PPV." What is wrong with you! Don't you at least want to see some results?!?!?
OSL has ESF vs Kespa, so does GSL.
I know, and the ESF should be happy to have chances to play KESPA in those tournaments too. These are obviously two opposing organizations. One quite established, KESPA. The other an upstart in comparison, ESF.
If ESF wants to survive in the industry, they need to win over KESPA players whenever possible. Otherwise, the best ESF players will just be poached by KESPA teams when the transfer ban is lifted and ESF teams will collapse.
If that last bit were true, something like this tournament would do the opposite. The bias in number of invites would almost secure that ESF players be knocked out (or a much higher chance) by KeSPA players, thus making the situation worse for them?
On September 27 2012 01:43 kamikami wrote: Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
Random players? What the hell are you talking about? lol Nice troll attempt.
this is imo where the fallout from the whole MLG PPV comes into effect. MLG lost my good will because I felt they where dishonest at best. If that hadn't happened my opinion on this matter probably wouldn't be as pro ESF as it is right now.
On September 27 2012 01:43 kamikami wrote: Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
On September 27 2012 01:43 kamikami wrote: Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
Those random players = every Korean SC2 player who is not a KeSPA player.
On September 27 2012 01:43 kamikami wrote: Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
MarineKing, MC, PuMa, LosirA etc are random players? :|
and out of the "30,000" good players, the top echelon would be ESF players :\
On September 27 2012 01:22 TeeTS wrote: Well if this all means, that ESF players concentrate more on IPL and maybe even european events, than I would be totally fine with it. The problem for MLG here is, that they have this deal with KESPA, which costed them some money for sure and now they try to make something out of it... I didn't like the news of this exclusive deal in the first place back when it was announced and this is just a consequence of it. :o The thing I'm wondering now is, how far this dispute will go...
Well worst scenario is Kespa players going only to MLG and ESF players playing only all the other events like IPL, Dreamhack, IEM etc. I think MLG has some sort of exclusive deal with Kespa, where they only attend MGLs and no other foreign tournaments. And this was prob in response to IPLs connection to GSL( GSTL Final at IPL4, Team World vs GSL, GSL RO8(?) etc at IPL5)
To me this seems like two big boys (MLG and IGN/IPL) duking it out the american way. I hope both can survive and we as viewers get to see the best players at as many foreign tournaments as possible.
On September 27 2012 01:32 KissMeRed wrote: Wow, the ESF players should be happy they even have the opportunity to stomp some KESPA players (not that they necessarily would). With this type of policy, the future of the ESF teams seems quite grim.
On a side note, to anyone who said, "Wasn't going to watch anyway, PPV." What is wrong with you! Don't you at least want to see some results?!?!?
OSL has ESF vs Kespa, so does GSL.
I know, and the ESF should be happy to have chances to play KESPA in those tournaments too. These are obviously two opposing organizations. One quite established, KESPA. The other an upstart in comparison, ESF.
If ESF wants to survive in the industry, they need to win over KESPA players whenever possible. Otherwise, the best ESF players will just be poached by KESPA teams when the transfer ban is lifted and ESF teams will collapse.
I disagree. Kespa has been established in Brood War for a long time, but as far as SC2 goes, ESF is the established organization. I also am unsure how many ESF players would be willing to basically forfeit any free rights they have by going to KESPA teams. ESF just needs money so that it's teams can pay more salaries. If they do that, then I think ESF can survive in the long run.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
Supporting ESF all the way. They are one of the main reasons that sc2 is what it is today. They came from a nonglobalized bw, and made sc2 (with other ppl) to a globalized esport. And look at the succes, and the interrest from foreigners. Now kespa joins in, and ESF gets the cold shoulder and the meh rewards. I will not buy ppv to this online tournament.
It's also a cross server tournament, and arbitrarily pits foreigners and some koreans against other koreans. I'm sorry but the entire tournament has seemed like a bad idea to me since I heard about it.
This is retarded, and people supporting eSF in this decision is really sad. The amount of invites to various events is never 'fair', pretty much every tournament around the world is skewed in favour of various demographics. Likewise, direct seeds into GSL aren't 'fair' either. The theme of this event was KeSPA vs Non-KeSPA - and thus the numbers of players on each 'side'.
On September 27 2012 01:32 KissMeRed wrote: Wow, the ESF players should be happy they even have the opportunity to stomp some KESPA players (not that they necessarily would). With this type of policy, the future of the ESF teams seems quite grim.
On a side note, to anyone who said, "Wasn't going to watch anyway, PPV." What is wrong with you! Don't you at least want to see some results?!?!?
OSL has ESF vs Kespa, so does GSL.
I know, and the ESF should be happy to have chances to play KESPA in those tournaments too. These are obviously two opposing organizations. One quite established, KESPA. The other an upstart in comparison, ESF.
If ESF wants to survive in the industry, they need to win over KESPA players whenever possible. Otherwise, the best ESF players will just be poached by KESPA teams when the transfer ban is lifted and ESF teams will collapse.
I disagree. Kespa has been established in Brood War for a long time, but as far as SC2 goes, ESF is the established organization. I also am unsure how many ESF players would be willing to basically forfeit any free rights they have by going to KESPA teams. ESF just needs money so that it's teams can pay more salaries. If they do that, then I think ESF can survive in the long run.
"Just needs money"
You know how many people just need money in the world?
It's a pretty terrible tournament idea but they do have a partnership with kespa. It's not supposed to be fair to all, they're promoting their interests.
On September 27 2012 01:47 Salazarz wrote: This is retarded, and people supporting eSF in this decision is really sad. The amount of invites to various events is never 'fair', pretty much every tournament around the world is skewed in favour of various demographics. Likewise, direct seeds into GSL aren't 'fair' either. The theme of this event was KeSPA vs Non-KeSPA - and thus the numbers of players on each 'side'.
If MLG wanted this to be a showmatch, then they should have cut off all connections to the Fall Championship. If they wanted it to be a qualifier then it should have been open to all willing participants. Instead they chose both and got a "qualifier" where half the participants didn't have to qualify in the first place, which makes a mockery of the entire tournament.
There aren't 16 direct seeds for the GSL. Bad analogy is bad.
ffs it's called MvProleague for a reason. I bet if IPL hold a Something vs eSF with 24 eSP seeds & few KeSPA they would not complain. Way to be a bitch about any fuckin thing eSF. #norespect
On September 27 2012 00:54 NexRex wrote: Hmm, wasn't going to watch due to PPV anyway, but I completely understand ESF declining. They were the ones that have been part of the SC2 scene longer and put more work into it and they got gypped in the number of spots.
This is my impression as well, I just wasn't very jazzed up to dole out more money for lackluster casters (no offense Axeltoss and Axslav) and for a seemingly wildly imbalanced player pool in terms of invites (even though there are some great names in there).
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
uh... whats your point? esf/gsl also get to decide who they invite to their tournament. they give foreign players seeds even though they didnt go through the qualifiers. GSL "chose" to make it that way too. so whats the problem here? its the choice of MLG! dont go all crazy saying it's unfair.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
Lol it is quite ironic because the first GOM/MLG partnership had 4 Koreans each seeded into super protective pools with all travel expenses paid and ESF teams back then didn't complain about biased seeding.
The stakes were different back then. MLG before the GOM deal was strictly foreigners and wasn't watched that much because the GOM Koreans were so superior that MLG simply couldn't generate intrigue. Now they have GOM Koreans in their tournaments but are trying to trade them for all these new KESPA players. This is like a boyfriend cheating on his girl with the new girl that just moved into town. ESF has been there, and is basically the main reason MLG Starcraft is so much better than before, but now they are shafting ESF for all the new KESPA players.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
uh... whats your point? esf/gsl also get to decide who they invite to their tournament. they give foreign players seeds even though they didnt go through the qualifiers. GSL "chose" to make it that way too. so whats the problem here? its the choice of MLG! dont go all crazy saying it's unfair.
And those seeds are unfair too! But they given them to people who have won major tournaments and don't seem to be particularly biased about them. And there are 2 seeds. I've criticized those plenty too, but trying to pretend they are roughly equivalent is absolutely insane. This is orders of magnitude worse, and it's clearly intended to shut down a meaningful portion of the sc2 scene.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Thank you, everyone's literate here. People are asking why it had to be that way.
I don't care much since I am not going watch ppv, like, never ever. But I am happy ESF is fighting back.
because MLG strikes a deal with KeSPA and they show support toward their partner? It's none of eSF's business here. They start to bite the dust cuz of inferior popularity (which they just cant help against) so it's time to be jealous right?
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
Lol it is quite ironic because the first GOM/MLG partnership had 4 Koreans each seeded into super protective pools with all travel expenses paid and ESF teams back then didn't complain about biased seeding.
The stakes were different back then. MLG before the GOM deal was strictly foreigners and wasn't watched that much because the GOM Koreans were so superior that MLG simply couldn't generate intrigue. Now they have GOM Koreans in their tournaments but are trying to trade them for all these new KESPA players. This is like a boyfriend cheating on his girl with the new girl that just moved into town. ESF has been there, and is basically the main reason MLG Starcraft is so much better than before, but now they are shafting ESF for all the new KESPA players.
Yeah I get it, ESF players are pissed they aren't the exciting new things now. Doesn't change the fact it's hypocritical.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
But there is no thing such as MLG players. MLG players in this tournament is everybody except the players on Kespa. Thats just a term they made up to market this event.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
uh... whats your point? esf/gsl also get to decide who they invite to their tournament. they give foreign players seeds even though they didnt go through the qualifiers. GSL "chose" to make it that way too. so whats the problem here? its the choice of MLG! dont go all crazy saying it's unfair.
The difference between GSL inviting foreigners and MLG inviting way more KESPA players is that GOM and KESPA are both Korean based groups. MLG has basically hand picked all these Koreans from KESPA, while short hanging the GOM players who have been with MLG for so long.
MLG screwed them over here and the e-Sports Federation doesn't have nearly the same influence as KeSPA. This is one of their few ways of protesting that won't end up as mere hot air.
With the exception of the invited eSF players, all other eSF players have to play through two qualifiers against their fellow brethren. Only 8 players out of 58+ successfully got through the first qualifier; only 3 players out of 30 will qualify past the second. If we assume equal skill among all the participants and account for matchups and bracket possibilities, a player going through the two qualifiers has a lovely 1.38% chance of actually making it to the Fall Championship (the chances are slightly higher if double elimination format is involved). Of course your chances increase with your skill level, but all it takes is one bad Bo3 to ruin your shot. KR online tournaments are notorious for having lesser-known players knock out the big guns early in the brackets.
Meanwhile 24 KeSPA players got invited (i.e didn't have to qualify in any shape or form) to a 48-player invitational in which the top 8 get seeded into the Fall Championship. Judging from their current skill level and the skill level of their foreign competition (we could pretend that foreigners and Koreans are on a equal skill in the general sense, but let's not entertain fantasies here), it's likely that 5-7 of the seeds will be grabbed by KeSPA players. Since it's a Bo1 repeated 24 times, anomalies are far less problematic since they have less impact on overall results.
The winner of the MvP Invitational gets $10,000 and a seed to the Fall Championship. The winner of the KR/TW Invite-Only Qualifiers gets a seed into the Fall Championship and $0. If he was a winner of the Open Online Qualifiers, he would have played harder competition for worse rewards.
Historically KeSPA has barely lifted a finger to earn the favor of the international community. The MvP Invitational is not an example of "reaching out of the community", but looks suspiciously like KeSPA having their cake and eating it too. They get a tournament with stacked odds that showcase their players, a bizarre mixture of a showmatch and a qualifier that does not match the criteria of either.
So yes, eSF members are getting fucked over. They are playing harder qualifiers for less profit and smaller chances of actually qualifying for the Fall Championship, all this with 3x the participants. If worst comes to worst they will actually get less seeds to the tournament as well.
Why am I not surprised by this... MLG tries always to bring the biggest players to the top, even to the extent of hurting their integrity as a competition. Its why I never pay for any MLG event.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
Lol it is quite ironic because the first GOM/MLG partnership had 4 Koreans each seeded into super protective pools with all travel expenses paid and ESF teams back then didn't complain about biased seeding.
The stakes were different back then. MLG before the GOM deal was strictly foreigners and wasn't watched that much because the GOM Koreans were so superior that MLG simply couldn't generate intrigue. Now they have GOM Koreans in their tournaments but are trying to trade them for all these new KESPA players. This is like a boyfriend cheating on his girl with the new girl that just moved into town. ESF has been there, and is basically the main reason MLG Starcraft is so much better than before, but now they are shafting ESF for all the new KESPA players.
Yeah I get it, ESF players are pissed they aren't the exciting new things now. Doesn't change the fact it's hypocritical.
Actually it does, there's a huge difference between choosing to invite Korean players for the first time, and deciding to invite a heavy majority in favor of one group of Koreans(KESPA) over the other(GOM).
Although i think it's good, i also understand why there are less GSL players. You know, MLG already named it MLG vs Proleague, so they can't give them as much slots as for the Kespa players.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
yea. they chose to make it that way. It's a partnership. Why would Kespa agree to having less than half of the representation?
eSF can form another tournament with another partnership with anyone. No one has stopped them with having deals with others. I'll just quote this:
On September 27 2012 01:46 Kenpark wrote: I think MLG has some sort of exclusive deal with Kespa, where they only attend MGLs and no other foreign tournaments. And this was prob in response to IPLs connection to GSL( GSTL Final at IPL4, Team World vs GSL, GSL RO8(?) etc at IPL5)
Why doesn't anyone have a problem with those and has a problem with this? I have no problem with both. It's just stupid taking sides.
If there was no event like this they would have just seeded 8 Kespa players into the main tournament anyway like they were planning to do for Raleigh before Kespa decided to not send any players. Yeah this is a silly way to select which of them are going to get seeded in but it was going to happen no matter what.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
Lol it is quite ironic because the first GOM/MLG partnership had 4 Koreans each seeded into super protective pools with all travel expenses paid and ESF teams back then didn't complain about biased seeding.
The stakes were different back then. MLG before the GOM deal was strictly foreigners and wasn't watched that much because the GOM Koreans were so superior that MLG simply couldn't generate intrigue. Now they have GOM Koreans in their tournaments but are trying to trade them for all these new KESPA players. This is like a boyfriend cheating on his girl with the new girl that just moved into town. ESF has been there, and is basically the main reason MLG Starcraft is so much better than before, but now they are shafting ESF for all the new KESPA players.
Yeah I get it, ESF players are pissed they aren't the exciting new things now. Doesn't change the fact it's hypocritical.
Actually it does, there's a huge difference between choosing to invite Korean players for the first time, and deciding to invite a heavy majority in favor of one group of Koreans(KESPA) over the other(GOM).
It's called MLG vs Proleague. I thought it was dumb to invite so many NA players too cuz they would just get smashed but that's a discussion for another day.
On September 27 2012 02:00 liberate71 wrote: If it didn't have implications on the MLG Fall Championship - I doubt it would be anywhere near as big a deal.
Seems MLG are just intimidated by KeSPA and forgot who helped push them from $5,000 1st place prizes to $25,000 1st place prizes.
GSL has a partnership with IPL, what the hell is MLG supposed to do? Obviously it makes good business sense to partner with the other Korean giant.
You think GSL would ever have a GSL Finals at MLG when they have a partnership with IPL?
On September 27 2012 01:43 kamikami wrote: Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
Those random players = every Korean SC2 player who is not a KeSPA player.
No, my point is that there're 30000 good players in the world, and now 6 of them declined. We assumed that they are 6 best players of the world, so we can just invite the next 6 (from 6th to 12th position). If they refuse we can invite the next 6 and so on, this way there's no problem at all. In fact they are as random as anyone else if we go that way.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
uh... whats your point? esf/gsl also get to decide who they invite to their tournament. they give foreign players seeds even though they didnt go through the qualifiers. GSL "chose" to make it that way too. so whats the problem here? its the choice of MLG! dont go all crazy saying it's unfair.
of course it is MLG's choice! Noone wants to to forbid MLG to do what they want with their tournaments. People are just discussing their oppinions here about what is done and possible consequences... And if a tournament decides to favor a certain group of players, then the other players don't feel that great about it. And if they don't get anything in response to even it up again, than they feel even worse about it and take actions on their own. And that's what happened here: MLG clearly favors KESPA and shows ESF the cold shoulder and ESF takes first (indeed very small) consequences (it's not like they boycott MLG completely...). MLG should have made their MvP series a show match. But they feared that noone would've cared about it then, so they put qualifier spots on the line to hit 2 flies with one slap: First MvP series gets more relevance. Second: They get KESPA players to their main event to upgrade it even more. The problem are the issues between ESF and KESPA right now. Anyone thinking that with KESPA's agreement to participate in the GSL season 4 everything is fine now, is just naive. ESF and KESPA observe what's happening now very precisely. This very bad timing from MLG for such an event might have played a lot into the whole drama.
The real underlying issue to me is that KESPA and ESF players are all Korean players. This isn't like when MLG invited GOM players entered MLG for the first time because back then KESPA was still playing broodwar: Now MLG is deciding to invite way more Korean players from the KESPA faction than the GOM faction. It's different than inviting foreigners to Korea or vice-versa because GOM and KESPA are both Korean based groups.
good for them. although i want to see the kespa players get manhandled, if you are going to treat ESF like shit then they should just say fuck you and be done with it.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
yea. they chose to make it that way. It's a partnership. Why would Kespa agree to having less than half of the representation?
eSF can form another tournament with another partnership with anyone. No one has stopped them with having deals with others. I'll just quote this:
On September 27 2012 01:46 Kenpark wrote: I think MLG has some sort of exclusive deal with Kespa, where they only attend MGLs and no other foreign tournaments. And this was prob in response to IPLs connection to GSL( GSTL Final at IPL4, Team World vs GSL, GSL RO8(?) etc at IPL5)
Why doesn't anyone have a problem with those and has a problem with this? I have no problem with both. It's just stupid taking sides.
The IPL/GSL partnership is about hosting an event together. That's a business partnership, sure, but IPL isn't giving GSL players byes through half the tournament because of it or something like that.
"Partnerships" that give some players a competitive advantage over others have no place in legitimate sports. Tiger Woods doesn't get a 5-stroke handicap because he demanded it in exchange for coming to the tournament. And if he did, no one would just be like "eh, the tournament is allowed to do whatever it wants...." Of course the tournament is allowed to do whatever it wants, but if this is what it wants, that tournament isn't legitimate.
I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
couldnt they just do it like the MLG GI matches before, but hold an invited qualifier for each of the 4 regions, the korean one could be a 24 man tourney 12 kespa 12 esf. people will only pay money to watch their favorite players anyway. but yea i wasnt gonna watch this cuz its not really worth it to watch the kespa guys stomp foreigners.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
Yes, the reasoning is... Kespa and MLG have a partnership.
Lol it is quite ironic because the first GOM/MLG partnership had 4 Koreans each seeded into super protective pools with all travel expenses paid and ESF teams back then didn't complain about biased seeding.
The stakes were different back then. MLG before the GOM deal was strictly foreigners and wasn't watched that much because the GOM Koreans were so superior that MLG simply couldn't generate intrigue. Now they have GOM Koreans in their tournaments but are trying to trade them for all these new KESPA players. This is like a boyfriend cheating on his girl with the new girl that just moved into town. ESF has been there, and is basically the main reason MLG Starcraft is so much better than before, but now they are shafting ESF for all the new KESPA players.
Yeah I get it, ESF players are pissed they aren't the exciting new things now. Doesn't change the fact it's hypocritical.
Actually it does, there's a huge difference between choosing to invite Korean players for the first time, and deciding to invite a heavy majority in favor of one group of Koreans(KESPA) over the other(GOM).
It's called MLG vs Proleague. I thought it was dumb to invite so many NA players too cuz they would just get smashed but that's a discussion for another day.
I agree with that last part NA players can't hold a candle to KESPA or GOM. But the whole setup was designed to massively favor KESPA from the start. Which is bad IMO.
The thing that pisses me off the most is that not everyone is on an equal level when it comes to MLG. I absolutely fucking hate that they will give out seeds to another tournament when not everyone can compete to get one of those seeds! I swear MLG always tries to just push the biggest names to the top, its not a fair competition, its BS.
Am I the only one that doesn't get pissed about that?
On September 27 2012 01:43 kamikami wrote: Well, why is this the problem ? Those are "invites" in the first place. If you invite someone to your home and he/she doesn't want to come you can just invite someone else. There are like 30000 good players out there, why should MLG care about some random players not willing to participate ?
Those random players = every Korean SC2 player who is not a KeSPA player.
No, my point is that there're 30000 good players in the world, and now 6 of them declined. We assumed that they are 6 best players of the world, so we can just invite the next 6 (from 6th to 12th position). If they refuse we can invite the next 6 and so on, this way there's no problem at all. In fact they are as random as anyone else if we go that way.
And all you will be left with is foreigners and KeSPA players because no eSF player in their right mind will accept an invitation. The "best players in the world" were not invited in the MvP Invitational, they were the best performers from the Summer Championship.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
People think it's "unfair" because ESF players helped grow MLG starcraft to what it is. Those same ESF players which are tied so closely with GOM though have a partnership with IPL. Are people going to complain about lack of Kespa invites when that tournament rolls around next? Honestly this is really silly, they're just acting in their best interest.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is different then foreigners going to a Korean event. KESPA and GOM are both Korean. So choosing to invite one set of Koreans over the other is unfair to the opposing Korean group. There not inviting more Koreans, they are replacing more GOM Koreans with KESPA players.
wasn't the whole concept of the tourney Proleague (i.e kespa) vs the world? So 24 proleague players vs 24 non proleague players. Ofc under those circumstances kespa gets half the spots. The rest go to non kespa players.
I don't see why the esf have gotten their knickers in a twist, MLG has partnered with kespa after trying to partner with GOM and getting shafted in favour of IPL..... this tourney is supposed to pit kespa vs the best of the rest....
Remember, there is a business side to esports and especially the SCII scene. If we want the community to grow, we must accept this ideology and not become so upset when things don't go 'exactly' our way. It has been said before, and I agree, that there is an absurd amount of good players in the world, and losing a few of them for one tourney doesn't kill the SCII scene. People drop out all the time, and tournaments (especially those run by major corporations such as GSL, IPL, or MLG) turn out to be fine. Whether you want to pay for it or not is another issue all together. But I feel like this stuff will happen, and it is important to understand that this is just how business works, and we can't grow as a community without it. That being said, it is in those players' rights to object to participation, and we should respect that.
On September 27 2012 02:09 emythrel wrote: wasn't the whole concept of the tourney Proleague (i.e kespa) vs the world? So 24 proleague players vs 24 non proleague players. Ofc under those circumstances kespa gets half the spots. The rest go to non kespa players.
I don't see why the esf have gotten their knickers in a twist, MLG has partnered with kespa after trying to partner with GOM and getting shafted in favour of IPL..... this tourney is supposed to pit kespa vs the best of the rest....
They chose that concept because they were looking for a concept that would allow them to favor Kespa. You say "under those circumstances" like the concept was a natural disaster forced on MLG against its control.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
On September 27 2012 02:09 emythrel wrote: wasn't the whole concept of the tourney Proleague (i.e kespa) vs the world? So 24 proleague players vs 24 non proleague players. Ofc under those circumstances kespa gets half the spots. The rest go to non kespa players.
I don't see why the esf have gotten their knickers in a twist, MLG has partnered with kespa after trying to partner with GOM and getting shafted in favour of IPL..... this tourney is supposed to pit kespa vs the best of the rest....
Because it's a qualifier with blatant bracket manipulation, not a showmatch.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is different then foreigners going to a Korean event. KESPA and GOM are both Korean. So choosing to invite one set of Koreans over the other is unfair to the opposing Korean group. There not inviting more Koreans, they are replacing more GOM Koreans with KESPA players.
But they aren't replacing GOM Koreans with KeSPA players. KeSPA are supplying the invites for their half of the tournament. Really MLG here are replacing GOM Koreans with NA/EU players, because they only have the ability to invite half of the players.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
Yes sure because ESF players participating in MLG events for the last year have nothing to do with the popularity MLG can enjoy now.
oh yeah? as if those eSF players donated their skills and handsomeness to some charity in the US and A. Hell no they got free flight tickets, free trophies, some cool grands, fan interaction and shit, MLG got that popularity. It's a fair, beneficial deal for both parties, and when it ended, it really ended. And now eSF blaming MLG for some work ethics issue or what? Bitches please!
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
yea. they chose to make it that way. It's a partnership. Why would Kespa agree to having less than half of the representation?
eSF can form another tournament with another partnership with anyone. No one has stopped them with having deals with others. I'll just quote this:
On September 27 2012 01:46 Kenpark wrote: I think MLG has some sort of exclusive deal with Kespa, where they only attend MGLs and no other foreign tournaments. And this was prob in response to IPLs connection to GSL( GSTL Final at IPL4, Team World vs GSL, GSL RO8(?) etc at IPL5)
Why doesn't anyone have a problem with those and has a problem with this? I have no problem with both. It's just stupid taking sides.
The IPL/GSL partnership is about hosting an event together. That's a business partnership, sure, but IPL isn't giving GSL players byes through half the tournament because of it or something like that.
"Partnerships" that give some players a competitive advantage over others have no place in legitimate sports. Tiger Woods doesn't get a 5-stroke handicap because he demanded it in exchange for coming to the tournament. And if he did, no one would just be like "eh, the tournament is allowed to do whatever it wants...." Of course the tournament is allowed to do whatever it wants, but if this is what it wants, that tournament isn't legitimate.
and yet we saw seeds for tournaments. Really, many were pretty excited when their favorite foreigner got a Code S seed. They got an advantage by not having to go through preliminaries or Code A. At least this one is a tournament.
Yes sure because ESF players participating in MLG events for the last year have nothing to do with the popularity MLG can enjoy now.
oh yeah? as if those eSF players donated their skills and handsomeness to some charity in the US and A. Hell no they got free flight tickets, free trophies, some cool grands, fan interaction and shit, MLG got that popularity. It's a fair, beneficial deal for both parties, and when it ended, it really ended. And now eSF blaming MLG for some work ethics issue or what? Bitches please!
It's amazing how fast this community can turn on you. A little more than a year ago, we were bowing down at MLG's feet for making SC2 their main stage game. Now MLG has the audacity to run a one off special event touranment where they invite who they'd like, and the whole community turns on them, without having any facts to back it up.
We haven't even gotten a real statement yet, just FXOBoss running his mouth trying to stir up fervor (what? FXOBoss running his mouth to try and sway public opinion? Why I never). Funny how FXOBoss seems to insert himself in to every situation that pops up with KeSPA and SC2. This isn't the fist time he's decided it's a good idea to put out an "unofficial" statement that whips up a fervor on these forums.
In the end, to anyone looking at this objectively and with a business eye, the ESF players and the ESF look like bush league businessmen who are backing out of an agreed upon event because they are jelly they didn't get as many invites to a tournament meant specifically to showcase KeSPA players to an audience that hasn't gotten to see them a lot. It's not a major MLG event, it's not an Arena or a live tournament. It's a fan service event to give foreign fans a chance to watch KeSPA players with commentators we enjoy and at a time that's beneficial to us, rather than Korean re-streams or watching it at 2am. It's appearently a shocking business revelation to invite a bunch of KeSPA players to your tournament that's specifically about showcasing KeSPA players.
If this was a showmatch series with a separate prize pool and no influence on the Fall Championships, then people would have no problem with this. The problem is that MLG/KeSPA are blatantly phasing out the Korean eSF players in their premier league (MLG Championships) with bracket rigging and a complete lack of invites/qualifiers for the eSF players.
I came from BW and some of my favorite players are BW players, but I seriously hope these guys fall flat on their face and MLG fails miserably. They've picked sides way too early jumping on the KeSPA train and are turning into the KeSPA of the western world while completely screwing over the guys that helped build them up. (Hey it's Deja Vu from HALO :/)
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
Its because this is no longer about the competition, its about getting viewers and money, and right now, thats what kespa will bring.
On September 27 2012 02:19 Brainling wrote: It's amazing how fast this community can turn on you. A little more than a year ago, we were bowing down at MLG's feet for making SC2 their main stage game. Now MLG has the audacity to run a one off special event touranment where they invite who they'd like, and the whole community turns on them, without having any facts to back it up.
We haven't even gotten a real statement yet, just FXOBoss running his mouth trying to stir up fervor (what? FXOBoss running his mouth to try and sway public opinion? Why I never). Funny how FXOBoss seems to insert himself in to every situation that pops up with KeSPA and SC2. This isn't the fist time he's decided it's a good idea to put out an "unofficial" statement that whips up a fervor on these forums.
In the end, to anyone looking at this objectively and with a business eye, the ESF players and the ESF look like bush league businessmen who are backing out of an agreed upon event because they are jelly they didn't get as many invites to a tournament meant specifically to showcase KeSPA players to an audience that hasn't gotten to see them a lot. It's not a major MLG event, it's not an Arena or a live tournament. It's a fan service event to give foreign fans a chance to watch KeSPA players with commentators we enjoy and at a time that's beneficial to us, rather than Korean re-streams or watching it at 2am. It's appearently a shocking business revelation to invite a bunch of KeSPA players to your tournament that's specifically about showcasing KeSPA players.
Funny how you chide people for not being objective yet you cannot even get the basic facts right.
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
In an invitation that is about putting up everyone else (esf, na, eu) vs kespa players? Really!? Honestly I'm usually on esf's side but wtf is wrong with them, they are acting as childish as kespa did when they said they wouldn't play gsl. MLG obviously wants to put the global star 2 scene that developed in the last 2 years vs the kespa players, obviously there are gonna be more kespa players in that then esf guys. All this does is more segregation, all esf did by this is hurting the scene, thanks!
But funny how everyone jumps on esfs train here because kespa is displayed as the great evil anyways, and mlg is apparently the new EG, sometimes I really wonder whats wrong with this community.
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
Its because this is no longer about the competition, its about getting viewers and money, and right now, thats what kespa will bring.
Really? KeSPA running over Foreigners in a rigged system is going to bring viewers?
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
You mean other than the fact that the tournament is actually called MLG vs. KeSPA? I mean, yeah, other than that small fact, I see absolutely no reason a bunch of KeSPA players should have been invited.
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
Its because this is no longer about the competition, its about getting viewers and money, and right now, thats what kespa will bring.
Really? KeSPA running over Foreigners in a rigged system is going to bring viewers?
Not saying I agree with it or that it makes sense, but it feels like something MLG would try anyways.
On September 27 2012 02:19 Brainling wrote: It's amazing how fast this community can turn on you. A little more than a year ago, we were bowing down at MLG's feet for making SC2 their main stage game. Now MLG has the audacity to run a one off special event touranment where they invite who they'd like, and the whole community turns on them, without having any facts to back it up.
We haven't even gotten a real statement yet, just FXOBoss running his mouth trying to stir up fervor (what? FXOBoss running his mouth to try and sway public opinion? Why I never). Funny how FXOBoss seems to insert himself in to every situation that pops up with KeSPA and SC2. This isn't the fist time he's decided it's a good idea to put out an "unofficial" statement that whips up a fervor on these forums.
In the end, to anyone looking at this objectively and with a business eye, the ESF players and the ESF look like bush league businessmen who are backing out of an agreed upon event because they are jelly they didn't get as many invites to a tournament meant specifically to showcase KeSPA players to an audience that hasn't gotten to see them a lot. It's not a major MLG event, it's not an Arena or a live tournament. It's a fan service event to give foreign fans a chance to watch KeSPA players with commentators we enjoy and at a time that's beneficial to us, rather than Korean re-streams or watching it at 2am. It's appearently a shocking business revelation to invite a bunch of KeSPA players to your tournament that's specifically about showcasing KeSPA players.
Funny how you chide people for not being objective yet you cannot even get the basic facts right.
You do realize that saying "You didn't get the facts right", but posting zero corrections, makes you look pretty stupid right? If you're going to tell someone they are wrong, you better point out where, and what fact was wrong, otherwise you're just posting to post.
It's so setup for "Best kespa vs best non-kespa" also "Stephano vs Korea" and "North America vs the World" even though NA top players cannot be compared to the best in Europe or Korea (ESF)
well, its online event, so not a fan of that, now these players dropping out, not liking it so i am not watching this and just check the results. if it would be offline jaedong probably would make me wanna watch it but so...meh
On September 27 2012 02:19 Brainling wrote: It's amazing how fast this community can turn on you. A little more than a year ago, we were bowing down at MLG's feet for making SC2 their main stage game. Now MLG has the audacity to run a one off special event touranment where they invite who they'd like, and the whole community turns on them, without having any facts to back it up.
We haven't even gotten a real statement yet, just FXOBoss running his mouth trying to stir up fervor (what? FXOBoss running his mouth to try and sway public opinion? Why I never). Funny how FXOBoss seems to insert himself in to every situation that pops up with KeSPA and SC2. This isn't the fist time he's decided it's a good idea to put out an "unofficial" statement that whips up a fervor on these forums.
In the end, to anyone looking at this objectively and with a business eye, the ESF players and the ESF look like bush league businessmen who are backing out of an agreed upon event because they are jelly they didn't get as many invites to a tournament meant specifically to showcase KeSPA players to an audience that hasn't gotten to see them a lot. It's not a major MLG event, it's not an Arena or a live tournament. It's a fan service event to give foreign fans a chance to watch KeSPA players with commentators we enjoy and at a time that's beneficial to us, rather than Korean re-streams or watching it at 2am. It's appearently a shocking business revelation to invite a bunch of KeSPA players to your tournament that's specifically about showcasing KeSPA players.
Funny how you chide people for not being objective yet you cannot even get the basic facts right.
You do realize that saying "You didn't get the facts right", but posting zero corrections, makes you look pretty stupid right? If you're going to tell someone they are wrong, you better point out where, and what fact was wrong, otherwise you're just posting to post.
A "fan service event" does not grant 8 seeds to the Fall Championship. A showmatch does not function as a qualifier to a major tournament.
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
Its because this is no longer about the competition, its about getting viewers and money, and right now, thats what kespa will bring.
Really? KeSPA running over Foreigners in a rigged system is going to bring viewers?
Not saying I agree with it or that it makes sense, but it feels like something MLG would try anyways.
It's kind of funny because if anyone was watching Flash vs Last in OSL this morning, they would have seen stream numbers worse than an evening broadcast of NASL. Yep, that's some massive viewership MLG is reigning in there
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
On September 27 2012 02:20 Deshkar wrote: Given how ESF are the strongest MLG players, they probably feel snubbed at. understandable. I dont see why kespa should be overly favourited.
You mean other than the fact that the tournament is actually called MLG vs. KeSPA? I mean, yeah, other than that small fact, I see absolutely no reason a bunch of KeSPA players should have been invited.
I have no problem with MLG vs KeSPA, it's a great idea. What isn't as great an idea is give 8 seeds to championship group play. 2 seeds, go for it, but giving out 1/4 of total spot to a show match?
The idea is nice ... but how the invites where handled its more a pr event, with a really slim chance of anyone but kespa getting positive pr out of it hehe. I mean people love to use MLG to show that korea > foreigners. Not a hard task to fill the top line if you have tons of players there, so it looks like you were dominating.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
I thought people were bitching about it? I was the most vocal about how they had already started their screwing over of eSF players by not giving MKP a seed but giving mediocre foreigners those seeds instead when they played the name number of matches in the Arena as MKP had while not having near the MLG track record he has.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
The "oohs" and "aaahs" at potentially seeing BW players in SC2 drowned out any attempt at logical thinking.
Why is there even drama about this? It's a bloody online tournament with cross server lag and limited PPV exposure. There's absolutely nothing wrong with turning down invites and I'm not entirely convinced this is even an ESF issue. Maybe MKP and LosirA just didn't want to play in a weird format under these conditions.
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
Why didn't they invite MKP and Leenock then? They were at the event in the open bracket lol...Leenock won from the open bracket!
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
I thought people were bitching about it? I was the most vocal about how they had already started their screwing over of eSF players by not giving MKP a seed but giving mediocre foreigners those seeds instead when they played the name number of matches in the Arena as MKP had while not having near the MLG track record he has.
There were definitely complaints but not nearly as bad as this, at least they are holding a " tournament " to decide who gets invited this time.
On September 27 2012 02:31 xBillehx wrote: Why is there even drama about this? It's a bloody online tournament with cross server lag and limited PPV exposure. There's absolutely nothing wrong with turning down invites and I'm not even entirely convinced this is an ESF issue. Maybe MKP and LosirA just didn't want to play in a weird format under these conditions.
The problem is that 8 seeds (1/4 of total group play if same size) got handed out. That's...... alot.
Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
Why didn't they invite MKP and Leenock then? They were at the event in the open bracket lol...Leenock won from the open bracket!
MLG never announced who they were seeding, until 2 days before actual championship when we got a bunch random seeds. MLG was thinking about seeding KeSPA players but people didn't know that. How you expect people to get mad about something they didn't know? After it blew up with random seeds people were too busy bitching about the actual seeds. And bitching something that didn't happen anyway seems rather pointless, no?
I can't really comment about if the coming MLG event brackets are rigged or not because I don't fucking fully understand their system since MLG tries to complicate things as much as they can.
Regarding the extra slots for Kespa over ESF it's understandable why ESF won't participate.
Question is if MLG will do something about this? My bet is they won't and will simply run the tournament. Some people would even say that it's such a small tournament that it doesn't even matter.
I'm still laughing at the fact that the ESF players who put MLG's SC2 scene on the map and basically gave MLG the biggest growth the company's ever seen from 2010 to 2011 is getting fucked over.
These players grew the scene at MLG and made it what it is today.
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
Why didn't they invite MKP and Leenock then? They were at the event in the open bracket lol...Leenock won from the open bracket!
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
I thought people were bitching about it? I was the most vocal about how they had already started their screwing over of eSF players by not giving MKP a seed but giving mediocre foreigners those seeds instead when they played the name number of matches in the Arena as MKP had while not having near the MLG track record he has.
There were definitely complaints but not nearly as bad as this, at least they are holding a " tournament " to decide who gets invited this time.
That's probably because they never officially announced it, so it was just "speculation" that those seeds were going to KeSPA. Unless something is staring the forum denizens in the face, they really wont pay attention to it.
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
Why didn't they invite MKP and Leenock then? They were at the event in the open bracket lol...Leenock won from the open bracket!
MLG never announced who they were seeding, until 2 days before we got a bunch random seeds. MLG was thinking about seeding KeSPA players but people didn't know that. How you expect people to get mad about something they didn't know? After it blew up with random seeds people were too busy bitching about the actual seeds. And bitching something that didn't happen anyway seems rather pointless, no?
You seriously think it was not going to be Kespa players? Everyone I know had assumed it was going to be kespa players, and from everything I read on TL everyone else thought the same thing.
They ended up inviting random foreigners who played in the arena and online qualifiers for the arena ( they didn't even win the qualifiers for the ARENA and they invited them to group play at the championship!! ) over good ESF Korean players because Kespa decided to not send anyone.
It doesn't have to be an official announcement to see something clearly.
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
Why didn't they invite MKP and Leenock then? They were at the event in the open bracket lol...Leenock won from the open bracket!
MLG never announced who they were seeding, until 2 days before we got a bunch random seeds. MLG was thinking about seeding KeSPA players but people didn't know that. How you expect people to get mad about something they didn't know? After it blew up with random seeds people were too busy bitching about the actual seeds. And bitching something that didn't happen anyway seems rather pointless, no?
You seriously think it was not going to be Kespa players? Everyone I know had assumed it was going to be kespa players, and from everything I read on TL everyone else thought the same thing.
AFTER we had a bunch random seeds. Before people was thinking about the seeds were part KeSPA part eSF (and there were rumors of MKP / Leenock was part of the seed, which we NOW know they were not).
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
On September 27 2012 02:31 xBillehx wrote: Why is there even drama about this? It's a bloody online tournament with cross server lag and limited PPV exposure. There's absolutely nothing wrong with turning down invites and I'm not entirely convinced this is even an ESF issue. Maybe MKP and LosirA just didn't want to play in a weird format under these conditions.
Absolutely agree with this. There's nothing wrong with ESF players declining the invitation, MLG could just invite some EU/NA players instead. No one is at fault here. If you want Kespa vs ESF, go watch OSL and GSL.
I was honestly going to pay the $10 for this, but after considering it I really don't want to. Why would I support MLG when they have extended series, terrible brackets, terrible hosts (Clutch is quite possibly the worst person to interview a progamer, ever) and constantly announce things they don't/can't deliver on?
It's just sad that such a giant of ESPORTS is being run so terribly.
On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote: Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments....
Wait, why do people say this is an ESF decision? Where's the statement? This is a semi shitty online tournament, where only 1st place gets money (What?). Doesn't surprise me some people would decline. The whole half KESPA thing, and giving so many seeds for a rigged invitational, that's just icing on the cake, but really this is pretty much a useless tournament, except for KESPA to use it as a showmatch, and as a small chance to get some seeds, there's no money in it, and the way it works it seems to favour KESPA in getting the seeds. *shrugs* No surprise people decline, people decline tournaments all the time, if this really is an ESF decision, then I would like to see a statement that isn't hearsay from the mouth of FXOBoss.
Who in their right mind would accept a tournament that doesn't give you money for participating unless you win, and in a time with unrest between KESPA and ESF have a lineup that's totally rigged against ESF?
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
true. but that would mostly be because ESF has developed the scene and KeSPA is coming in and making illegitimate demands. i think what ESF is doing is fine (assuming its for the reasons stated in the op). they arent going batshit and accusing KeSPA or MLG of anything. they are just withdrawing because they dont feel it is fair to them.
I think the issue is that KeSPA has come so late to the SCII scene and the industry is trying to adjust to players who have proved to be some of the best. MLG is trying to include both Korean giants in their products. This invitational is sort of (for lack of a better term) affirmative action to push KeSPA into the MLG scene. However it is clear from this and the OSL/Code A Qualifier clash that some of the old prejudices still remain from BW. I purchased this PPV because I wanted to see KeSPA players in a NA friendly time zone. I'm sad that I won't see those players ... P.S. I have no opinion on whether or not this is fair or not.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
true. but that would mostly be because ESF has developed the scene and KeSPA is coming in and making illegitimate demands. i think what ESF is doing is fine (assuming its for the reasons stated in the op). they arent going batshit and accusing KeSPA or MLG of anything. they are just withdrawing because they dont feel it is fair to them.
Exactly. Declining to participate in a tournament you don't like seems extremely reasonable to me.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
Maybe if there would not be a single good reason behind KeSPA. You can't assume.
well eSF's good reason = give a finger every time they let me alone. serious abandonment issue there tbh ethics can only get you success in CFA, not business. Always the drama
This seems like its all speculation. Two players turn down invites to an online-only cross server tournament and an admin from another team gets asked to speculate and all of the sudden ESF teams have a beef with MLG? I'm not buying it. Seems like drama-mongering to me.
ESF players realised that the tournament is bad and they would feel bad if they participated in it. This is just MLG trying cash in with the famous KeSPA players and no caring. I never liked you much, MLG.
Lol its all going to be online, winners gets all the money..... I cant believe they just shunned the people who have helped them so much, they just pooped on a really good business relationship imo. I'm a bit upset with mlg and how they are doing this. if u agree dont buy it!!!!!!!!! if u don't agree with me, buy it!.
On September 27 2012 02:46 Leetley wrote: ESF players realised that the tournament is bad and they would feel bad if they participated in it. This is just MLG trying cash in with the famous KeSPA players and no caring. I never liked you much, MLG.
If only DreamHack had the resources to open a circuit in the States...
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward. Did I mention that the eSF players have to go through harder competition as well?
On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote: Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments....
I knew there is going to be someone thinking like this. eSF players paid from themselves (team/ fans/sponsors) much much more to MLG than any other tournaments. If only invited paid eSF players can go, MLG is no big than IPL/DH today. Those team/fans/sponsors paid eSF players to MLG coz this is the only highly exposed foreigner tournament and they have to trust it. Now MLG turned behind their back, how would you do? Put more money into the holes?
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
You are correct. MLG has said multiple times that this will be the case.
On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote: Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments....
I knew there is going to be someone thinking like this. eSF players paid from themselves (team/ fans/sponsors) much much more to MLG than any other tournaments. If only invited paid eSF players can go, MLG is no big than IPL/DH today. Those team/fans/sponsors paid eSF players to MLG coz this is the only highly exposed foreigner tournament and they have to trust it. Now MLG turned behind their back, how would you do? Put more money into the holes?
What? You realize that the only Korean's that have paid their way to MLG are those who have gone through the open bracket right? The majority of the Koreans that attend have been in group play, MLG covered those costs last year with their deal with GOM and they pay for everyone in group play this year. Very few ESF players have covered their own trips. FXO usually sends two, SlayerS and TSL have sent a handful as well.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
I only read the announcement itself, I didn't see the actual brackets.
KeSPA players will only get four seeds according to these brackets? Huh...I might have actually preferred it if they had the chance to get all eight. These brackets are even more hilarious than I thought. NA representation is equal to the EU and eSF representation combined so they automatically get two seeds. What exactly is the point of this qualifier?
On September 27 2012 02:29 Dodgin wrote: so like is anyone going to answer my question
On September 27 2012 02:12 Dodgin wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:11 Swords wrote:
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
I understand this concept, and you are correct in most of your assertions. I think the problem a lot of people have with this is the results of this tournament influence future MLGs (Fall Championship, etc.) If they want to have a MLG vs. KeSPA tournament, then by all means they should do so, but they shouldn't have it affect future tournaments. This means all of the KeSPA players invited have an unfair advantage qualifying for MLGs over the ESF players. Since it's invite only as well, it means the KeSPA players don't even get in on merit, they get in by beating mostly each other, foreigners, and the small number of ESF players that were invited.
tl;dr: MLG can and should have a joint MLG/KeSPA tournament, but that tournament can't invite a majority KeSPA players and then have a major influence over who gets to attend later tournaments. That does shaft the ESF players, basically saying "we value having KeSPA players on the circuit over the ESF players who helped get us where we are now"
I'm still wondering where all the bitching was for Raleigh when they announced they were seeding in 8 Kespa players to the group stages although they had not earned it at all. They didn't end up going because it conflicted with Proleague but it would have happened otherwise.
They never announced they were seeding 8 KeSPA players, there were talking about MKP and Leenock were part of seeds, then it just blew up and we had a bunch random seeds. No one would retroactively get pissed about someone who didn't show up got invited.
Why didn't they invite MKP and Leenock then? They were at the event in the open bracket lol...Leenock won from the open bracket!
MLG never announced who they were seeding, until 2 days before we got a bunch random seeds. MLG was thinking about seeding KeSPA players but people didn't know that. How you expect people to get mad about something they didn't know? After it blew up with random seeds people were too busy bitching about the actual seeds. And bitching something that didn't happen anyway seems rather pointless, no?
You seriously think it was not going to be Kespa players? Everyone I know had assumed it was going to be kespa players, and from everything I read on TL everyone else thought the same thing.
They ended up inviting random foreigners who played in the arena and online qualifiers for the arena ( they didn't even win the qualifiers for the ARENA and they invited them to group play at the championship!! ) over good ESF Korean players because Kespa decided to not send anyone.
It doesn't have to be an official announcement to see something clearly.
The biggest part of community doesn't care about these things unless you tell them explicitly about it.
Everyone should've already guessed this event would be PPV when MLG first announced its existence but they're only complaining now because the broadcast schedule was released yesterday and Reddit and Inside the Game brought it to people's attention.
The composition of the player pool was known about a week ago, but only today people are butthurt that ESF players were "snubbed" because only now they actually read the relevant threads.
Since it didn't happen, potential KeSPA seeds were completely irrelevant for most. We only like to complain when it's already way too late.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
So Kespa will get 4 spots in group play for Dallas. If ESF is actually upset about this, well then i don't know what to say. There will be more esf players than Kespa or Foreigners at Dallas. I really don't see the problem here.
Trolol, ESF trying to ram it home that KESPA isn't as big and bad as they think they are. Though it's kinda silly, since MLG and GOMTV broke up and left MLG wide-open to partner with KESPA. Did ESF not realize that this kind of shit would happen? It's only natural that the teams that are partnered with MLG will get the preferential treatment and the 5-7 ezpz seeds.
I mean, I stand beside ESF all the way. Anyone who can try and stand up to KESPA is a good thing in my book. But I can't help but think that this is a bit of "Oh shit, we let this happen."
MLG has to learn from the recent issues in the NFL. INTEGRITY of the game is everything. When tournaments start picking who they want to see through it ruins the sport and this is exactly what MLG is doing by the brackets. That bracket guarantees 4 Kespa players no matter the skill level. That's just absolutely wrong. You're watching a show instead of a competition. If this was by itself the issue wouldn't be as big but, attaching this to the Championship is what ruffled feathers.
Slasher, you wrote about the ESF & Kespa clash, but you ignored how this invitational could be a form of compensation for when Kespa was invited to the last MLG and couldn't in the last minute?
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
No that's right. Since Liquipedia wasn't sourced I checked it on the MLG website also (http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/52#event-format). I can understand why the eSF would refuse to play given the circumstances. They will only have one spot compared to KESPA's 4.
It would be nice if they actually seeded players throughout the bracket based on standing (1-16, 2-15, 3-14 etc) or at the very least divided it up so its 2KESPA, 2eSF, 2NA, 2 EU. If they want to invite players through a non-open qualifier they should just invite them instead of this farce of a tournament.
On September 27 2012 02:47 TheLastTemplar wrote: Lol its all going to be online, winners gets all the money..... I cant believe they just shunned the people who have helped them so much, they just pooped on a really good business relationship imo. I'm a bit upset with mlg and how they are doing this. if u agree dont buy it!!!!!!!!! if u don't agree with me, buy it!.
Well, MLG and ESF don't have a good business relationships since Naniwa / GSTL @ IPL. KeSPA thing just add to it.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
No that's right. Since Liquipedia wasn't sourced I checked it on the MLG website also (http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/52#event-format). I can understand why the eSF would refuse to play given the circumstances. They will only have one spot compared to KESPA's 4.
It would be nice if they actually seeded players throughout the bracket based on standing (1-16, 2-15, 3-14 etc) or at the very least divided it up so its 2KESPA, 2eSF, 2NA, 2 EU. If they want to invite players through a non-open qualifier they should just invite them instead of this farce of a tournament.
but eSF players are getting spots in the KR/TW qualifiers and made up 7 of the top 8 from Raleigh that get to go to Dallas.
You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
On September 27 2012 01:24 Burns wrote: There has to be a reason for MLG inviting that many kespa players over esf players. I expect an announcement from mlg soon then, hopefully they have a solid reasoning other then kespa players are more attractive.
uh... coz it's MLG vs KESPA. MLG invites (includes esf) get half, kespa get the other half of the invites. please read first before commenting.
Right, but they *chose* to make it that way. There was no reason they had to do that. What if MLG decided to make a big "EG vs. the world" tournament, where half the players were EG. And there was a lot of money and qualifiers to their main tournament. And there was a rule stating that half the qualifiers would go to EG players no matter how badly they did. And it turns out they did it because EG promised never to go to IPL in exchange. Would the community not go insane?
uh... whats your point? esf/gsl also get to decide who they invite to their tournament. they give foreign players seeds even though they didnt go through the qualifiers. GSL "chose" to make it that way too. so whats the problem here? its the choice of MLG! dont go all crazy saying it's unfair.
Gosh, is ESF going to do stuff like this every single time? It's childish and it's getting old.
On a side note, why is eSF announcing that they won't play in this literally on the day of the matches? The details of the tournament were published quite a while ago, yet they wait until it's time to play the games, then say, 'oh changed our minds lol'.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
No that's right. Since Liquipedia wasn't sourced I checked it on the MLG website also (http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/52#event-format). I can understand why the eSF would refuse to play given the circumstances. They will only have one spot compared to KESPA's 4.
It would be nice if they actually seeded players throughout the bracket based on standing (1-16, 2-15, 3-14 etc) or at the very least divided it up so its 2KESPA, 2eSF, 2NA, 2 EU. If they want to invite players through a non-open qualifier they should just invite them instead of this farce of a tournament.
but eSF players are getting spots in the KR/TW qualifiers and made up 7 of the top 8 from Raleigh that get to go to Dallas.
ESF gets 3 spots from KR/TW qual, 1 from MvP invitational and Kespa gets 4 from MvP invitational. Unless they are inviting more Kespa players after this It's exactly equal although the methods of qualification are different. ( and more difficult for ESF )
It just so happens than top 8 of the previous MLG are all Korean players, might not happen again.
On September 27 2012 03:09 Salazarz wrote: On a side note, why is eSF announcing that they won't play in this literally on the day of the matches? The details of the tournament were published quite a while ago, yet they wait until it's time to play the games, then say, 'oh changed our minds lol'.
They didn't announce shit, it's just Gamespot releasing a story on it.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
No that's right. Since Liquipedia wasn't sourced I checked it on the MLG website also (http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/52#event-format). I can understand why the eSF would refuse to play given the circumstances. They will only have one spot compared to KESPA's 4.
It would be nice if they actually seeded players throughout the bracket based on standing (1-16, 2-15, 3-14 etc) or at the very least divided it up so its 2KESPA, 2eSF, 2NA, 2 EU. If they want to invite players through a non-open qualifier they should just invite them instead of this farce of a tournament.
but eSF players are getting spots in the KR/TW qualifiers and made up 7 of the top 8 from Raleigh that get to go to Dallas.
ESF gets 3 spots from KR/TW qual, 1 from MvP invitational and Kespa gets 4 from MvP invitational. Unless they are inviting more Kespa players after this It's exactly equal although the methods of qualification are different. ( and more difficult for ESF )
It just so happens than top 8 of the previous MLG are all Korean players, might not happen again.
which is why i don't get ESF being upset. How many players actually declined? I've seen 3 names, MKP, DRG and Losira. And the only "evidence" of ESF pulling out is FXOBoss's speculation. There might not be any drama here.
On September 27 2012 02:34 ArvickHero wrote: if this was KeSPA trying to pull this shit this thread would've exploded w/ outrage
I think everyone agrees on that ESF is getting an unfair treatment here and that KESPA are, atleast, in part to blame. However its a very small tournament, prolly why we aren't seeing a bigger nerdstorm.
I don't agree at all. The KR/TW qualifier is just esf players, the top 8 from mlg raleigh is esf players. and esf players were invited to the MvP. They were getting plenty of opportunities for the free trip to Dallas.
Only 3 players can get through the KR/TW qualifiers. Up to 8 KeSPA players can qualify through the MvP Invitational, and with the current player base it looks like at least 5 seeds will go to them. The KeSPA players didn't go through any qualifiers for the invitational, while the eSF players have to go through two rounds of qualifiers for potentially less seeds and no monetary reward.
Am I reading the Liquipedia bracket wrong? It looks like NA will get 2, EU will get 1, non-kespa KR will get 1 and kespa will get 4 seeds?
No that's right. Since Liquipedia wasn't sourced I checked it on the MLG website also (http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/52#event-format). I can understand why the eSF would refuse to play given the circumstances. They will only have one spot compared to KESPA's 4.
It would be nice if they actually seeded players throughout the bracket based on standing (1-16, 2-15, 3-14 etc) or at the very least divided it up so its 2KESPA, 2eSF, 2NA, 2 EU. If they want to invite players through a non-open qualifier they should just invite them instead of this farce of a tournament.
but eSF players are getting spots in the KR/TW qualifiers and made up 7 of the top 8 from Raleigh that get to go to Dallas.
ESF gets 3 spots from KR/TW qual, 1 from MvP invitational and Kespa gets 4 from MvP invitational. Unless they are inviting more Kespa players after this It's exactly equal although the methods of qualification are different. ( and more difficult for ESF )
It just so happens than top 8 of the previous MLG are all Korean players, might not happen again.
which is why i don't get ESF being upset. How many players actually declined? I've seen 3 names, MKP, DRG and Losira. And the only "evidence" of ESF pulling out is FXOBoss's speculation. There might not be any drama here.
I was just expanding on your point, I agree with you. I think this is just Slasher trying to get hits and create drama out of nothing.
On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote: You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that.
It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it.
If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote: You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that.
It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it.
If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
IIRC Liquid did actually seed all of their own players into TSL3 and no one cared.
On September 27 2012 03:09 Salazarz wrote: On a side note, why is eSF announcing that they won't play in this literally on the day of the matches? The details of the tournament were published quite a while ago, yet they wait until it's time to play the games, then say, 'oh changed our minds lol'.
After reading the article it appears that they aren't. Its all speculation. No one from eSF said anything except for some conjecture from a single member of the FXO staff, and that could have even been requested by the interviewed. Honestly, this thread says next to nothing that hasn't already been said in an MLG announcement. Seems like its just Slasher promoting an article he wrote full of speculation, while many users interpret it as an official release from ESF.
On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote: Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments....
I knew there is going to be someone thinking like this. eSF players paid from themselves (team/ fans/sponsors) much much more to MLG than any other tournaments. If only invited paid eSF players can go, MLG is no big than IPL/DH today. Those team/fans/sponsors paid eSF players to MLG coz this is the only highly exposed foreigner tournament and they have to trust it. Now MLG turned behind their back, how would you do? Put more money into the holes?
What? You realize that the only Korean's that have paid their way to MLG are those who have gone through the open bracket right? The majority of the Koreans that attend have been in group play, MLG covered those costs last year with their deal with GOM and they pay for everyone in group play this year. Very few ESF players have covered their own trips. FXO usually sends two, SlayerS and TSL have sent a handful as well.
U do realize that if MLG paid those trips to foreigners MLG is going to be shit today right? Beside, eSF players earn these money coz they all fight through the open bracket to the pool play. MLG invitational seeding is not directly seeded into pool play. So eSF players use their money first to earn the money from MLG, what's the problem with this? MLG have an format and they have to stick to it so they have to send money to eSF players. It's not a charity it's pure business.
MLG originally seed 4 Koreans in their pool play now due to their stupid format they have about 30 koreans in the pool, and now they argue they paid too much to Koreans? For god sake they only paid 4 for free others are pure result from their business model. Dont even try to argue MLG 'paid' Koreans make esport grow. They paid because Koreans are good and can earn their pool seeds through open bracket while foreigners cant keep their standings in pool play.
On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote: You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that.
It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it.
If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
IIRC Liquid did actually seed all of their own players into TSL3 and no one cared.
They seeded the ones in Korea, and gave some semi-plausible reason (and included Idra). But it was the very early days of SC2, when big unbiased international tournaments didn't exist, so people were willing to accept almost anything. And if you think no one cared, you're having memory issues. There was definitely criticism at the time.
I'm actually surprised MLG actually invited ESF players to begin with. It seems like the aim of this tournament is to highlight the KeSPA players, while discreetly using "MLG players" (which it wants to define as NA+EU+ESF) as a punching bag. If this wasn't so obvious, I don't think ESF would be that concerned.
On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote: Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments....
I knew there is going to be someone thinking like this. eSF players paid from themselves (team/ fans/sponsors) much much more to MLG than any other tournaments. If only invited paid eSF players can go, MLG is no big than IPL/DH today. Those team/fans/sponsors paid eSF players to MLG coz this is the only highly exposed foreigner tournament and they have to trust it. Now MLG turned behind their back, how would you do? Put more money into the holes?
What? You realize that the only Korean's that have paid their way to MLG are those who have gone through the open bracket right? The majority of the Koreans that attend have been in group play, MLG covered those costs last year with their deal with GOM and they pay for everyone in group play this year. Very few ESF players have covered their own trips. FXO usually sends two, SlayerS and TSL have sent a handful as well.
U do realize that if MLG paid those trips to foreigners MLG is going to be shit today right? Beside, eSF players earn these money coz they all fight through the open bracket to the pool play. MLG invitational seeding is not directly seeded into pool play. So eSF players use their money first to earn the money from MLG, what's the problem with this? MLG have an format and they have to stick to it so they have to send money to eSF players. It's not a charity it's pure business.
MLG originally seed 4 Koreans in their pool play now due to their stupid format they have about 30 koreans in the pool, and now they argue they paid too much to Koreans? For god sake they only paid 4 for free others are pure result from their business model. Dont even try to argue MLG 'paid' Koreans make esport grow. They paid because Koreans are good and can earn their pool seeds through open bracket while foreigners cant keep their standings in pool play.
What the fuck are you even saying dude? MLG has paid for the majority of trips for Koreans to attend MLG tournaments. Its a fact. It doesn't matter why. ESF players didn't just decide to go to MLG one day. MLG invited them and paid their way. And they have been doing so since.
i think i must be in the kindergarden that is really childish and unnecessary, they should be happy to compete in such events and take like the first 20 places
I'm on ESF's side with this. Some people like CosmicSpiral gave some excellent reasons. Seems like MLG is always just trying to find some new hype to ride on.
The day Sundance retires will be a day of celebration. In case this shit was not only his fault alone my statement is true for the rest of the MLG crew.
On September 27 2012 03:21 kixer wrote: i think i must be in the kindergarden that is really childish and unnecessary, they should be happy to compete in such events and take like the first 20 places
It's hard to decide if this decision was correct or not. However, I can totally understand ESF declining due to their limited participation. I wonder if there was any negotiation behind this or if they directly decided that not participating was the only way to make their statement clear.
On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote: You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that.
It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it.
If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
IIRC Liquid did actually seed all of their own players into TSL3 and no one cared.
That was back when Liquid players were actually the very best players, and everyone was having invitational tournaments. Nony got an invite off of TSL2, Jinro/Haypro/Ret off of BW, and the same for Idra. This is a completely different circumstance. The player talent in SC2 is large enough to where you can hold a tournament and have decent competition without having to invite people, something that tournaments seem to fail to understand. MLG most egregiously.
Grow up kids, all I see is anyone with an ESF tag showing blind fanboism for ESF teams/players. Reminds me of when kids that never played BW and only played SC2 couldn't handle any arguments about BW's gameplay strengths. Quit being so narrow-minded kiddies.
On September 27 2012 03:09 Salazarz wrote: On a side note, why is eSF announcing that they won't play in this literally on the day of the matches? The details of the tournament were published quite a while ago, yet they wait until it's time to play the games, then say, 'oh changed our minds lol'.
No, there were 6 spots for non-Kespa Koreans. These spots are now taken by MC, Oz , Crank, aLive, Alicia and Puma. Notice all these players are on non-eSF teams. Basically some eSF players were invited but declined so there is speculation eSF didn't like the treatment. But we have no further information since players can decline for various reason and might not be eSF/Kespa related. But those players that did decline definitely did not pull out last minute.
Why not all the foreign invites to the ESF players? The only foreigners I would like to see @ MLG are Stephano and maybe Nerchio. It is like WCS Asia having only 10 Koreans and having 10 Chinese and 9 Taiwanese. Just making the lower rounds less entertaining.
On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote: You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that.
It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it.
If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
IIRC Liquid did actually seed all of their own players into TSL3 and no one cared.
That was back when Liquid players were actually the very best players, and everyone was having invitational tournaments. Nony got an invite off of TSL2, Jinro/Haypro/Ret off of BW, and the same for Idra. This is a completely different circumstance. The player talent in SC2 is large enough to where you can hold a tournament and have decent competition without having to invite people, something that tournaments seem to fail to understand. MLG most egregiously.
yeah the liquid players were so good that only 1, teh reigning champ advanced to the next round....
On September 27 2012 03:27 deadmau wrote: Grow up kids, all I see is anyone with an ESF tag showing blind fanboism for ESF teams/players. Reminds me of when kids that never played BW and only played SC2 couldn't handle any arguments about BW's gameplay strengths. Quit being so narrow-minded kiddies.
Yes, and calling people kiddies because their opinion is different from yours if very mature...
Tournaments can invite whoever they want I guess, but weakens the "pay for us if you want to support ESPORTS" argument if we're going to have all these fun power struggles. Shame.
On September 27 2012 03:27 deadmau wrote: Grow up kids, all I see is anyone with an ESF tag showing blind fanboism for ESF teams/players. Reminds me of when kids that never played BW and only played SC2 couldn't handle any arguments about BW's gameplay strengths. Quit being so narrow-minded kiddies.
Glad we're still getting this kind of bullshit now we're all playing SC2. Well done that man.
What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is the only guy who really understood the situation properly?
I was even surprised when i saw 8 Gom Players announced since it's called MLG x Kespa.
Not a nice move from eSF. You can say whatever you want but MLG was nice enough to give them some spots.
Next time don't fuck MLG denying the seeds u guys reserved for them and honor the agreements you have made with them so you can make another partnership with them like Kespa just did.
On September 27 2012 03:04 Roman666 wrote: You guys do realize this is KeSPA's tournament as much as it is MLG's? Both companies have a say here not only MLG. That is why KeSPA gets more players into it. There's nothing else to it, no foul play involved.
I understand how the ESF players must feel, when they were playing in MLG tournaments, much to their success and now they are being repaid with this. But it is not their choice what are the rules here. However they have full right to bail out if they choose to.
Why didn't Liquid seed all their players into TSL? It was their tournament after all. The reason is that it would have been completely unfair. And you're free to host unfair tournaments, but no one would have taken TSL seriously if they had done that.
It generally isn't good when teams host their own tournaments, because they tend to bias them massively in their favor. Generally when teams try to do it (TSL, EGMC, for example) they go out of their way to make sure they're not biasing it, and they *still* get accused of it.
If MLG/KeSPA wants to run a biased tournament rigged to show off their own players, they of course have every right to do that, but you can't then act surprised when fans respond with "wtf, this is a biased piece of propaganda, not a legitimate tournament". You also can't be surprised when the people you've set up to lose decide not to participate.
Of course it will be biased, I already said it. Its THEIR tournament. It is probably unfair, but again its their tournament, they can do with it what they want.
And am I surprised that ESF does not want participate? Well I said that already too. I would probably did so as well seeing someone turning his back on me when I helped his business to flourish. And as for being in a handicapped position from the very start, this would only strengthen my decision to bail out.
Fans have every right to boycott this tournament, I will wont watch it due to PPV model and it being rigged from the start.
Yet again they can do whatever they want with it, but they risk public outrage and loss of popularity and authority as a company.
On September 27 2012 03:34 Resilient wrote: What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
ESF players are players from ST, IM, MvP, Prime, NSH, TSL, FXO, teams that from the federation (used to have ZENEX / OGS before they disbanded / absorbed). Slayers is the only major Korean non KeSPA team that's not ESF, but they sometime act with ESF and sometime don't. Koreans on foreign teams kind of the same way but generally they side with ESF.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is the only guy who really understood the situation properly?
I was even surprised when i saw 8 Gom Players announced since it's called MLG x Kespa.
Not a nice move from eSF. You can say whatever you want but MLG was nice enough to give them some spots.
Next time don't fuck MLG denying the seeds u guys reserved for them and honor the agreements you have made with them so you can make another partnership with them like Kespa just did.
I would not mix GOM here as they are loosely affiliated with ESF (or they say so). But you two guys almost nailed it. The very name of this tournament suggests its format. They can do what the hell they want with it, its their business.
People can of course express their dissapointment in this and choose not to watch. It your CHOICE as it is theirs CHOICE to create any tournament of any ridiculously rigged format as they wish.
Like I said before the PPV model and rigged format are two factors which rule me out of this spectacle.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is the only guy who really understood the situation properly?
I was even surprised when i saw 8 Gom Players announced since it's called MLG x Kespa.
Not a nice move from eSF. You can say whatever you want but MLG was nice enough to give them some spots.
Next time don't fuck MLG denying the seeds u guys reserved for them and honor the agreements you have made with them so you can make another partnership with them like Kespa just did.
I think most people agree that MLG can do whatever they want. But other players can decide to not accept invite if they want also. It's not like they are bound by some agreement to have to accept them. I personally have no problem with MLG vs KeSPA. I think it's a great idea. But it's giving out 8 seeds to championship, which is 1/4 of total group play spots if same set up as previous time. That's a bit much for a glorified cross server show match.
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
This is the only guy who really understood the situation properly?
I was even surprised when i saw 8 Gom Players announced since it's called MLG x Kespa.
Not a nice move from eSF. You can say whatever you want but MLG was nice enough to give them some spots.
Next time don't fuck MLG denying the seeds u guys reserved for them and honor the agreements you have made with them so you can make another partnership with them like Kespa just did.
He is not the only one but no point of arguing with these fanboys/antifans anymore.
What I curious about is how many ESF player did they invite? Did they invite 8 ESF players, or 8 non KeSPA players (6 that's in the tournament and MKP + LosirA). OP and linked post is very ambiguous. It probably doesn't matter but interesting to know.
On September 27 2012 03:49 ragz_gt wrote: What I curious about is how many ESF player did they invite? Did they invite 8 ESF players, or 8 non KeSPA players (6 that's in the tournament and MKP + LosirA). OP and linked post is very ambiguous. It probably doesn't matter but interesting to know.
They invited 8 Koreans, 6 of which are in the foreign teams. Only 2 of the Koreans invited are a part of ESF.
I keep seeing people talk about "ESF's side" as if there has been some official statement from ESF about this tournament or as if we know for sure that the two ESF players declined for the same reasons, in some form of protest. Did I miss some big source on this? All I've seen is Slasher's article that has no definitive news on that front, just speculation from a tangentially related staff member.
Honestly, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt on this, but the way the OP is worded, it seems like Slasher is intentionally trying to be misleading. I mean, take a look at this sentence:
GameSpot eSports has obtained information that says ESF teams and players have declined their invites to the MLG-KeSPA MvP Invitational.
As it turns out, I also "obtained" this information. I did so by reading these very forums, when the MLG staff posted exactly that information here. It seems odd that he'd turn around to the place he got the information from and present it this way, if his intentions were purely to inform the community.
I see people arguing about ESF vs MLG as if there is some kind of feud between the the two sides, but I honestly think the community has been fooled. It seems to me like, for all we know, MKP and Losira both had conflicts or too many other tournaments to practice for or didn't want to play cross-server or any other excuse. To assume that these invites were declined for political reasons without sufficient evidence seems naive.
I hope I'm wrong on this one, and its not so easy to hijack TL.net's opinion. Please, if I've missed a resource somewhere that contradicts what I've had to say, point it out for me; I'd feel much knowing that being a writer for a large website doesn't grant you a blank check for drama-mongering within the community.
Edit: And take a look at this:
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
It seems to me like Slasher's article is just an example of sensationalist/dishonest journalism in an attempt to get readers.
On September 27 2012 03:34 Resilient wrote: What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
There is already 6 Koreans playing... Mc, alive, oz, Alicia, crank, puma...
On September 27 2012 03:49 ragz_gt wrote: What I curious about is how many ESF player did they invite? Did they invite 8 ESF players, or 8 non KeSPA players (6 that's in the tournament and MKP + LosirA). OP and linked post is very ambiguous. It probably doesn't matter but interesting to know.
They invited 8 Koreans, 6 of which are in the foreign teams. Only 2 of the Koreans invited are a part of ESF.
That's also what I thought but Always Entertaining FXOBoSs (TM) was quoted
It was most likely because the ESF teams only got 8 invites
On September 27 2012 03:34 Resilient wrote: What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
Other than the Kespa teams every major korea based team, and FXO is ESF:
Slayers IM FXO NSH TSL Startale Prime MVP
all those guys are ESF.
Edit: Which yeah, dunno why Alicia was able to accept... I almost expect some news about that.
On September 27 2012 02:34 eleaf wrote: Didnt care about MLG about one year ago. This tournament is full of hyper and the quality of the tournament went down and down during this year. They had the best resources while Starcraft II tournament began to blow, yet they did not use it wisely and waste it on whatever extended series, whatever horrible seeding method/tournament format, whatever PPV & whatever MvP....
Koreans (eSF players) paid a lot (either from their team or from fans/sponsors) to MLG and they make MLG more shining than other tournament, but their effort/money is easily neglected by MLG. Time to put resources more smartly.
yes, ESF players have paid so much for those free trips that MLG gives them to play in there tournaments....
I knew there is going to be someone thinking like this. eSF players paid from themselves (team/ fans/sponsors) much much more to MLG than any other tournaments. If only invited paid eSF players can go, MLG is no big than IPL/DH today. Those team/fans/sponsors paid eSF players to MLG coz this is the only highly exposed foreigner tournament and they have to trust it. Now MLG turned behind their back, how would you do? Put more money into the holes?
What? You realize that the only Korean's that have paid their way to MLG are those who have gone through the open bracket right? The majority of the Koreans that attend have been in group play, MLG covered those costs last year with their deal with GOM and they pay for everyone in group play this year. Very few ESF players have covered their own trips. FXO usually sends two, SlayerS and TSL have sent a handful as well.
U do realize that if MLG paid those trips to foreigners MLG is going to be shit today right? Beside, eSF players earn these money coz they all fight through the open bracket to the pool play. MLG invitational seeding is not directly seeded into pool play. So eSF players use their money first to earn the money from MLG, what's the problem with this? MLG have an format and they have to stick to it so they have to send money to eSF players. It's not a charity it's pure business.
MLG originally seed 4 Koreans in their pool play now due to their stupid format they have about 30 koreans in the pool, and now they argue they paid too much to Koreans? For god sake they only paid 4 for free others are pure result from their business model. Dont even try to argue MLG 'paid' Koreans make esport grow. They paid because Koreans are good and can earn their pool seeds through open bracket while foreigners cant keep their standings in pool play.
What the fuck are you even saying dude? MLG has paid for the majority of trips for Koreans to attend MLG tournaments. Its a fact. It doesn't matter why. ESF players didn't just decide to go to MLG one day. MLG invited them and paid their way. And they have been doing so since.
Please stick to the truth. MLG only paid players in the pool which is their business rule. MLG didnt paid Koreans a penny except the 4 invited players for charity. For others, they have to pay according to the contract which Koreans earned it. You can say whatever MLG paid Koreans these kind of bullshit, but the truth is here nonetheless. Sry MLG fanboy, you could say MLG is the biggest charity tournament for the world if you like, but all I see MLG is a screwed up tournament crying for support from ppl.
On September 27 2012 03:54 Dodgin wrote: Wait so, MC didn't pull out of the tournament? He always sides with ESF because of his teams partnership with IM.
I have a feeling this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion...
Well, there's also MKP, who said in his recent winner's interview, that he was going to decline any invite to focus on GSL since he made it to the Ro8.
On September 27 2012 03:34 Resilient wrote: What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
Other than the Kespa teams every major korea based team, and FXO is ESF:
Slayers IM FXO NSH TSL Startale Prime MVP
all those guys are ESF.
Slayers is NOT ESF. They never joined because BoxeR's relationship with KeSPA.
MLG failed hard this time. They appear to not know the meaning of the word partnership. ESF and their players were one of the responsible for the huge growth MLG had in the past 12 months. In all this time, what Kespa did for MLG? Besides the invitational, how many times Kespa have modified their schedule to permit their players play in MLG?
MLG seems to have been dazzled by the success of the KESPA invitational and forgot every single viewer that tuned their streams to see the amazing games provided by DRG, MKP, MC, Parting and other ones. They appear to have forgotten what ESF players did and sacrificed to be able to play in MLG. They appear to have forgotten that ESF players support this game for 2 years, since its launch and that Kespa players don´t, and because of that, they have a much more deep understand of the game and have accomplished much more in SC2 that all Kespa players together.
These invites were nonsense and so much disrespectful to what ESF and their players did to help MLG. MLG is acting like a fanboy who tries to impress his idol at all costs.
On September 27 2012 03:34 Resilient wrote: What are the alternatives now? I'm not very clued up in the KR scene so are ESF players ALL the non-kespa players? Or just a handful? Who (regional) would be the likely replacements to the 6 declines?
Other than the Kespa teams every major korea based team, and FXO is ESF:
Slayers IM FXO NSH TSL Startale Prime MVP
all those guys are ESF.
Slayers is NOT ESF. They never joined because BoxeR's relationship with KeSPA.
On September 27 2012 03:54 Dodgin wrote: Wait so, MC didn't pull out of the tournament? He always sides with ESF because of his teams partnership with IM.
I have a feeling this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion...
The statement says MC pulled out but the schedule hasn't been edited yet.
Puma is part of EG, Alicia is part of SlayerS both teams are not part of the ESF, Crank is teamless so he has currently no assocation with them. The situation with Alive and Oz is currently unknown.
On September 27 2012 03:49 ragz_gt wrote: What I curious about is how many ESF player did they invite? Did they invite 8 ESF players, or 8 non KeSPA players (6 that's in the tournament and MKP + LosirA). OP and linked post is very ambiguous. It probably doesn't matter but interesting to know.
They invited 8 Koreans, 6 of which are in the foreign teams. Only 2 of the Koreans invited are a part of ESF.
No. They only had 6 spots to begin with for KR. Basically they invited 6, some turned it down and then they invited more. And now we have 6 which happens to not be in eSF. Did they decline because it was eSF's stance? Or because of other reasons, no one knows. MKP and LosirA are supposedly 2 players that turned them down. There might be others. Scarlett also pulled out of the tournament and who knows whether any EU/NA invites rejected them.
On September 27 2012 03:54 Dodgin wrote: Wait so, MC didn't pull out of the tournament? He always sides with ESF because of his teams partnership with IM.
I have a feeling this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion...
The statement says MC pulled out but the schedule hasn't been edited yet.
Puma is part of EG, Alicia is part of SlayerS both teams are not part of the ESF, Crank is teamless so he has currently no assocation with them. The situation with Alive and Oz is currently unknown.
Where does it say that? I think you might have misread it. That or I missed something.
On September 27 2012 03:54 Dodgin wrote: Wait so, MC didn't pull out of the tournament? He always sides with ESF because of his teams partnership with IM.
I have a feeling this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion...
The statement says MC pulled out but the schedule hasn't been edited yet.
Puma is part of EG, Alicia is part of SlayerS both teams are not part of the ESF, Crank is teamless so he has currently no assocation with them. The situation with Alive and Oz is currently unknown.
Absent from the list of competitors is any representation from any of the teams under the Korean eSports Federation, representing teams in Korea not under KeSPA, with the exception of SlayerS. All six Korean players invited, among them Jang "MC" Min Chul, Fnatic's Han "aLive" Lee Seok, and Lee "PuMa" Ho Joon, are signed to western teams SK Gaming, Fnatic, and Evil Geniuses, respectively. Incredible Miracle's Hwang "LosirA" Kang Ho and Prime's Lee "MarineKing" Jung Hoon are said to have turned down invites.
This does not say MC pulled out unless I am missing something?
I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
On September 27 2012 03:54 Dodgin wrote: Wait so, MC didn't pull out of the tournament? He always sides with ESF because of his teams partnership with IM.
I have a feeling this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion...
The statement says MC pulled out but the schedule hasn't been edited yet.
Puma is part of EG, Alicia is part of SlayerS both teams are not part of the ESF, Crank is teamless so he has currently no assocation with them. The situation with Alive and Oz is currently unknown.
Absent from the list of competitors is any representation from any of the teams under the Korean eSports Federation, representing teams in Korea not under KeSPA, with the exception of SlayerS. All six Korean players invited, among them Jang "MC" Min Chul, Fnatic's Han "aLive" Lee Seok, and Lee "PuMa" Ho Joon, are signed to western teams SK Gaming, Fnatic, and Evil Geniuses, respectively. Incredible Miracle's Hwang "LosirA" Kang Ho and Prime's Lee "MarineKing" Jung Hoon are said to have turned down invites.
This does not say MC pulled out unless I am missing something?
No, MC did not pull out. In fact it states that only 2 players pulled out + they mention Scarlett in the OP.
On September 27 2012 03:54 Dodgin wrote: Wait so, MC didn't pull out of the tournament? He always sides with ESF because of his teams partnership with IM.
I have a feeling this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion...
The statement says MC pulled out but the schedule hasn't been edited yet.
Puma is part of EG, Alicia is part of SlayerS both teams are not part of the ESF, Crank is teamless so he has currently no assocation with them. The situation with Alive and Oz is currently unknown.
Absent from the list of competitors is any representation from any of the teams under the Korean eSports Federation, representing teams in Korea not under KeSPA, with the exception of SlayerS. All six Korean players invited, among them Jang "MC" Min Chul, Fnatic's Han "aLive" Lee Seok, and Lee "PuMa" Ho Joon, are signed to western teams SK Gaming, Fnatic, and Evil Geniuses, respectively. Incredible Miracle's Hwang "LosirA" Kang Ho and Prime's Lee "MarineKing" Jung Hoon are said to have turned down invites.
This does not say MC pulled out unless I am missing something?
Yeah it was a mis-read from someone else believing it was the case, why do I trust the internet >_>
On September 27 2012 04:03 glzElectromaster wrote: Wow, that OP wasn't confusing...so pretty much only LosirA pulled because of this? Or were there more invites to begin with and were replaced already?
No one 'pulled out'. They just turned down the invite when it was given. MKP and LosirA supposedly did the turning down. MKP already said he is focusing on GSL. Not sure about LosirA.
The weird part is someone from FXO said that it MIGHT have to do with the number of invites. But if it was an eSF wide effort to reject this event, wouldn't FXO know about it? What if Gumiho was invited?
I don't see how Kespa teams get 24 spots while ESF teams only get 8...It just makes no sense. It should atleast be 50/50 if not just having spots for players who are famous/show good results in SC2.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Off topic but... WTF happening with FXO Inv6? It supposed to end 4 weeks ago...
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
So the bad journalism is a cause of this whole drama? You got to be kidding me...
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Off topic but... WTF happening with FXO Inv6? It supposed to end 4 weeks ago...
Disgusting service from the ISP provider we have in our office, we will air it very shortly, some of the r032 games will be out of date, but the rest were not played until we knew when we can get it back up and running
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
On September 27 2012 04:07 HornyHydra wrote: I don't see how Kespa teams get 24 spots while ESF teams only get 8...It just makes no sense. It should atleast be 50/50 if not just having spots for players who are famous/show good results in SC2.
It's not the ESF vs KeSPA invitational, it's the MLG vs Proleague invitational. They can invite whoever they please.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
So basically, fuck Slasher.
This thread should probably be closed or the OP heavily edited.
On September 27 2012 04:07 HornyHydra wrote: I don't see how Kespa teams get 24 spots while ESF teams only get 8...It just makes no sense. It should atleast be 50/50 if not just having spots for players who are famous/show good results in SC2.
Because the event is MLG vs Proleague...
It would be like having Korean vs World event were the World team was Koreans as well because they 'deserve' it more.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
So basically, fuck Slasher.
This thread should probably be closed or the OP heavily edited.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
well this is enlightening!
looks like all the war and taking sides (which just doesn't make sense to me) will have to wait till further news.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
well this is enlightening!
looks like all the war and taking sides (which just doesn't make sense to me) will have to wait till further news.
The problem is, there should be no further news. It seems that FXOBoss was thinking aloud and someone took it for a declaration of war...
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
So basically, fuck Slasher.
This thread should probably be closed or the OP heavily edited.
Jesus fucking christ.
I actually had no idea that it was only Losira who declined the invite so far.
That is, by far, the most misleading title I have ever read in my life.
I know SirScoots already yelled at you about it, but could you get a few more sources? The title suggests an "Oh shit, ESF refuses to enter!", and that's how you've got Boss's quote in there. But that's not supported except in that of the people invited to enter, no eSF team members accepted (of the two we know were invited). MKP wants (desperately) to win the GSL and drive a stake through his Kong status. He declined. LosirA declined. I don't see anything that says they invited eSF players X, Y, and Z, and they all said "Screw you hippies, we don't play with KeSPA!" Scarlett isn't playing either, but it's not because of a beef with KeSPA. You're connecting dots that aren't there man, with bubblegum and baling wire. Hell, MC taking part in the tournament is a pretty good indication that it's not a secret conspiracy from eSF - because he is a one man team, and even if he's not formally a member of the eSF, he has sided with them in the past and is close to the leadership of eSF.
Random other beef - Don't link to your own articles on Gamespot. If you say "MLG has released the brackets", LINK TO THE BRACKETS. I have no desire to go read your article about the brackets being released, looking for a link (that doesn't exist there, either) and then go hunting and pecking trying to find it on MLG's website. Sure, it may get you some more ad impressions, but it also pisses off your readers. Do it enough times, and I don't care what scoop you're breaking - I don't want to bother anymore.
Seriously, this is Fox News grade reporting man, and you know you can do better. If nothing else, Scoots sounds like he yells at you about from time to time.
Edit: Sniped on the journo angle by FXOUnstable. Giving us the real story. Thanks man, you're a bawss. Second Edit: Editing is good. Let's you fix things after you read it and go "wtf did I write?"
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
well this is enlightening!
looks like all the war and taking sides (which just doesn't make sense to me) will have to wait till further news.
The problem is, there should be no further news. It seems that FXOBoss was thinking aloud and someone took it for a declaration of war...
Well I hope there really isn't any more to it than just people speculating stuff. What's the point of arguing about eSF or KeSPA?
On September 27 2012 04:17 felisconcolori wrote: ... effing Slasher, man.
I know SirScoots already yelled at you about it, but could you get a few more sources? The title suggests an "Oh shit, ESF refuses to enter!", and that's how you've got Boss's quote in there. But that's not supported except in that of the people invited to enter, no eSF team members accepted (of the two we know were invited). MKP wants (desperately) to win the GSL and drive a stake through his Kong status. He declined. LosirA declined. I don't see anything that says they invited eSF players X, Y, and Z, and they all said "Screw you hippies, we don't play with KeSPA!" Scarlett isn't playing either, but it's not because of a beef with KeSPA. You're connecting dots that aren't there man, with bubblegum and baling wire. Hell, MC taking part in the tournament is a pretty good indication that it's not a secret conspiracy from eSF - because he is a one man team, and even if he's not formally a member of the eSF, he has sided with them in the past and is close to the leadership of eSF.
Random other beef - Don't link to your own articles on Gamespot. If you say "MLG has released the brackets", LINK TO THE BRACKETS. I have no desire to go read your article about the brackets being released, looking for a link (that doesn't exist there, either) and then go hunting and pecking trying to find it on MLG's website. Sure, it may get you some more ad impressions, but it also pisses off your readers. Do it enough times, and I don't care what scoop you're breaking - I don't want to bother anymore.
Seriously, this is Fox News grade reporting man, and you know you can do better. If nothing else, Scoots sounds like he yells at you about from time to time.
Edit: Sniped on the journo angle by FXOUnstable. Giving us the real story. Thanks man, you're a bawss. Second Edit: Editing is good. Let's you fix things after you read it and go "wtf did I write?"
Hey... Scarlett is supposed to be tight with Creator, so you never know :p
On September 27 2012 04:21 Irave wrote: Glad to see currently this is just Slasher dramatic reporting. Hopefully they get quick replacements for the ones who have left.
No Koreans pulled out last minute...no need to find replacements...
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
So basically, fuck Slasher.
This thread should probably be closed or the OP heavily edited.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
This just goes to show how everyone in the community jumps onto the smallest of assumptions from one person and it snowballs.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Just quoting this again. The OP looked sketchy as hell, then I saw it was posted by Slasher ... Not surprised to discover that this is a lot less drama than OP made it out to be.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Just quoting this again. The OP looked sketchy as hell, then I saw it was posted by Slasher ... Not surprised to discover that this is a lot less drama than OP made it out to be.
Basically Unstable's post is enough reason to close the thread.
Plus the declines probably happened a while ago and eSF players were happily playing in the MLG Fall qualifiers a few days ago. If there was any issues with MLG and eSF, don't think that would have happened.
If you look at the schedule for this, it actually goes on for quite a few weeks with many matches which are cross server and probably not at the best times (since you have KR vs EU vs NA). So it doesn't surprise me that players might turn this down.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
So basically, fuck Slasher.
This thread should probably be closed or the OP heavily edited.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Just quoting this again. The OP looked sketchy as hell, then I saw it was posted by Slasher ... Not surprised to discover that this is a lot less drama than OP made it out to be.
Basically Unstable's post is enough reason to close the thread.
I interpreted that comment as referring to the statement(s) stating the reasons for ESF declining the invites.
Meh, a lot of people already questioned the validity of the article even before the post by FXOUnstable, as well as stating that declining an invite to this is not really anything "out of the ordinary", people decline invitations all the time. I'd give people more credit, and give Slasher less, to be honest. Only a few posters here were taking things too far, a lot of this thread is people discussing the tournament format itself, I wouldn't say that the majority of the posts in here deserve being decribed negatively as this is a completely normal forum discussion.
On September 27 2012 04:44 hunts wrote: Slashers journalism is reminding me more and more of fox news journalism every time he writes or says anything.
The more shit he posts, the less credibility will he get. Until no one, save for the drama mongers, will believe in anything he has to write or say.
If true, ESF is being ridiculous with this one. The whole point of the tournament is to put MLG players vs Proleague players. This is a tournament hosted and funded by MLG + their sponsors, therefore they should be able to do what they want with it. And what they want to do is literally put MLG (and force the international aspect of it) vs Proleague. Don't protest against a major tournament provider for dedicating a single event to this kind of "X vs X" idea (which can only work, by the way, if proleague players make up half the battle). Especially, if they are funding it. Seriously, you cant expect MLG to transform the theme behind their tournament just because you want in. I find it selfish and, if they didn't misunderstand the idea behind the tournament, disgusting.
On September 27 2012 04:47 sparkk51 wrote: If true, ESF is being ridiculous with this one. The whole point of the tournament is to put MLG players vs Proleague players. This is a tournament hosted and funded by MLG + their sponsors, therefore they should be able to do what they want with it. And what they want to do is literally put MLG (and force the international aspect of it) vs Proleague. Don't protest against a major tournament provider for dedicating a single event to this kind of "X vs X" idea (which can only work, by the way, if proleague players make up half the battle). Especially, if they are funding it. Seriously, you cant expect MLG to transform the theme behind their tournament just because you want in. I find it selfish and, if they didn't misunderstand the idea behind the tournament, disgusting.
It's not true... Slasher just being slasher -.-
Only two players actually declined MKP who wants to focus on GSL and Losira for an unknown reason.... Again this is NOT ESF pulling it's players out... This is Slasher taking an off the record thought from FXOBoss sensationalising the shit out of it and posting it as fact -.-
On September 27 2012 04:47 sparkk51 wrote: If true, ESF is being ridiculous with this one. The whole point of the tournament is to put MLG players vs Proleague players. This is a tournament hosted and funded by MLG + their sponsors, therefore they should be able to do what they want with it. And what they want to do is literally put MLG (and force the international aspect of it) vs Proleague. Don't protest against a major tournament provider for dedicating a single event to this kind of "X vs X" idea (which can only work, by the way, if proleague players make up half the battle). Especially, if they are funding it. Seriously, you cant expect MLG to transform the theme behind their tournament just because you want in. I find it selfish and, if they didn't misunderstand the idea behind the tournament, disgusting.
It's not true... Slasher just being slasher -.-
Only two players actually declined MKP who wants to focus on GSL and Losira for an unknown reason.... Again this is NOT ESF pulling it's players out... This is Slasher taking an off the record thought from FXOBoss sensationalising the shit out of it and posting it as fact -.-
Thanks for that, I didn't read past page 2. So It's officially confirmed to be false?
On September 27 2012 04:47 sparkk51 wrote: If true, ESF is being ridiculous with this one. The whole point of the tournament is to put MLG players vs Proleague players. This is a tournament hosted and funded by MLG + their sponsors, therefore they should be able to do what they want with it. And what they want to do is literally put MLG (and force the international aspect of it) vs Proleague. Don't protest against a major tournament provider for dedicating a single event to this kind of "X vs X" idea (which can only work, by the way, if proleague players make up half the battle). Especially, if they are funding it. Seriously, you cant expect MLG to transform the theme behind their tournament just because you want in. I find it selfish and, if they didn't misunderstand the idea behind the tournament, disgusting.
It's not true... Slasher just being slasher -.-
Only two players actually declined MKP who wants to focus on GSL and Losira for an unknown reason.... Again this is NOT ESF pulling it's players out... This is Slasher taking an off the record thought from FXOBoss sensationalising the shit out of it and posting it as fact -.-
Thanks for that, I didn't read past page 2. So It's officially confirmed to be false?
I am waiting for boss to wake up to confirm if he did infact go on the record. But I highly doubt he did, and if he actually did he will get an earful from me about it
On September 27 2012 04:47 sparkk51 wrote: If true, ESF is being ridiculous with this one. The whole point of the tournament is to put MLG players vs Proleague players. This is a tournament hosted and funded by MLG + their sponsors, therefore they should be able to do what they want with it. And what they want to do is literally put MLG (and force the international aspect of it) vs Proleague. Don't protest against a major tournament provider for dedicating a single event to this kind of "X vs X" idea (which can only work, by the way, if proleague players make up half the battle). Especially, if they are funding it. Seriously, you cant expect MLG to transform the theme behind their tournament just because you want in. I find it selfish and, if they didn't misunderstand the idea behind the tournament, disgusting.
It's not true... Slasher just being slasher -.-
Only two players actually declined MKP who wants to focus on GSL and Losira for an unknown reason.... Again this is NOT ESF pulling it's players out... This is Slasher taking an off the record thought from FXOBoss sensationalising the shit out of it and posting it as fact -.-
Thanks for that, I didn't read past page 2. So It's officially confirmed to be false?
Officialy not, as Unstable was not able to get a response from Boss about what he said in the interview. Basically yes, as MKP said he is focusing on GSL and thats why he is declining everything else, Scarlett said she cant play cross server with her laggy connection and only Losira declined for the reasons unknown.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
Just quoting this again. The OP looked sketchy as hell, then I saw it was posted by Slasher ... Not surprised to discover that this is a lot less drama than OP made it out to be.
And, once again, Slasher does something else to support the reason why I mute Live on Three every time he starts one of his "Listen to me, please, I know what's going on this time" segments. Taking a statement as on the record when Boss repeatedly said he wouldn't because he didn't know the whole story? That's hack journalism, and an excellent way to get you ostracized from your sources.
On September 27 2012 04:47 sparkk51 wrote: If true, ESF is being ridiculous with this one. The whole point of the tournament is to put MLG players vs Proleague players. This is a tournament hosted and funded by MLG + their sponsors, therefore they should be able to do what they want with it. And what they want to do is literally put MLG (and force the international aspect of it) vs Proleague. Don't protest against a major tournament provider for dedicating a single event to this kind of "X vs X" idea (which can only work, by the way, if proleague players make up half the battle). Especially, if they are funding it. Seriously, you cant expect MLG to transform the theme behind their tournament just because you want in. I find it selfish and, if they didn't misunderstand the idea behind the tournament, disgusting.
It's not true... Slasher just being slasher -.-
Only two players actually declined MKP who wants to focus on GSL and Losira for an unknown reason.... Again this is NOT ESF pulling it's players out... This is Slasher taking an off the record thought from FXOBoss sensationalising the shit out of it and posting it as fact -.-
Thanks for that, I didn't read past page 2. So It's officially confirmed to be false?
Can't really be 100% confirmed false(until word from Boss) But judging by FXOUnstable's post and good logic it's about 99% confirmed false.
If ESF was pulling it's players out, they probably would have had a statement about it. MC would have pulled out with thim aswell he is close to them and has backed them in the past. Plus seeing as it is only 2 actually players pulling out 1. of them being MKP who said in his Code S interview he wants to focus solely on GSL this season... So really only 1 player pulling out for an unknown reason.... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's false...
If it's proven true I will eat my words and apologize to slasher.... but for now...
On September 27 2012 05:10 archonOOid wrote: The GSL/ESF is the best players in the world and if they are given a lower number than the largely unproven Kespa players it's not a fair competition.
On September 27 2012 05:11 Luepert wrote: Losira!! Oh well, I see their point and stand by it. ESF > Kespa for me any day. (Unless IM joinskespa lol)
At least skim through the thread if you cant be bothered to read it. There is no drama behind this, only bad, attention whore type journalism...
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
Well, as was the argument for the Old Boys Club, I kind of do represent the 1%. :O)
On a serious note, as I see this already exploding, I confirmed and double-checked my sources before publishing, just as I always do with my stories. Boss did in-fact go on the record.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
Well, as was the argument for the Old Boys Club, I kind of do represent the 1%. :O)
Couldn't care less. Online tournaments hold no meaning anyway. If they want a real tournament that the entire community would watch they would make this a live event. Would be way more fun than one of their arena's.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
Well, as was the argument for the Old Boys Club, I kind of do represent the 1%. :O)
On a serious note, as I see this already exploding, I confirmed and double-checked my sources before publishing, just as I always do with my stories. Boss did in-fact go on the record.
And him saying "most likely" is a confirmation enough to create a big headline news about how 2 players, one of which stated his reasons very clearly, decline the invite. Do you have some undisclosed sources which said so? This cannot be proved or disproved. Unless you can name your other sources, you created a drama out of unconfirmed loosely stated sentence.
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
Well, as was the argument for the Old Boys Club, I kind of do represent the 1%. :O)
On a serious note, as I see this already exploding, I confirmed and double-checked my sources before publishing, just as I always do with my stories. Boss did in-fact go on the record.
And him saying "most likely" is a confirmation enough to create a big headline news about how 2 players, one of which stated his reasons very clearly, decline the invite. Do you have some undisclosed sources which said so? This cannot be proved or disproved. Unless you can name your other sources, you created a drama out of unconfirmed loosely stated sentence.
Dont give us that shit...
I mean, of course it's true. It's just that the title that Slasher created is ridiculously misleading and that's pretty annoying.
ESF players do have the power now, but sadly they can only keep this going for a certain amount of time.. after that, people will get more into the KeSPA pros as they catch up in skill, and things probably won't matter as much anymore.
It will definitely be curious to see how this works out in the long run. MLG tournaments, even Arenas, bring a different kind of exposure than their championships. I can't help but feel this will be a bit more personal run through of KeSPA players to what I'll more broadly term "western" markets.
As someone who merely dabbled in BW, I know who these players are but not much more than that. Though I am a bit put out by ESF's declination of invitations, I am excited to see how MLG and KeSPA use this opportunity to give these legends a face in SC2.
Can we please update the OP with the information from FXOUnstable? So people can get a chance to actually get the right info regarding this case. Instead of what looks like loose drama right now
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
EDIT ------ If it was the case that boss went on the record with slasher about this, he will get a fucking earful from me, but I will haveto wait till he gets to the office in the morning to confirm
Well, as was the argument for the Old Boys Club, I kind of do represent the 1%. :O)
On a serious note, as I see this already exploding, I confirmed and double-checked my sources before publishing, just as I always do with my stories. Boss did in-fact go on the record.
MLG has a partnership with Kespa that I understand they never had with Gom. This one event is billed as kespa vs the rest, so of course they have more kespa players. I believe it is also the first time they are having kespa players in a normal mlg tourney rather than the one show match tourney they did.
I'm really excited by these players sticking together, fighting for better rights.
This is the sort of "union" that will help eSports move onward to the next level. I think there need to be some form of body/organisation/forum to make sure stuff like this is evaluated and discussed.
I'm not saying that MLG did right or wrong here - I'm just excited that someone takes a stand on what they conceive as important, and that they address it.
This really isn't a story, they should be allowed to decline the invites whenever they want. Why are people talking about the PPV model anyway, there is a separate thread for that.
The fact that BoSs did go on the record to say "most likely" doesn't change the fact that 1) he didn't have confirmed insider information to give to slasher and 2) only two players declined, one of whom has already said that he only wants to do Code S this season. This is a non-story. Guess even esports journalists have to sensationalize to bait clicks lol.
I fully understand and support this decision. It's basically a slap in the face of ESF players to invite that many Kespa players. If anything the number should be even but there are a lot more ESF players deserving an invite.
On September 27 2012 06:33 Baum wrote: I fully understand and support this decision. It's basically a slap in the face of ESF players to invite that many Kespa players. If anything the number should be even but there are a lot more ESF players deserving an invite.
isnt it proleague vs mlg? not kespa vs esf. if mlg side should be all esf korean players, that wouldnt be fair to players like idra, huk, select, etc. no?
24 proleague players (kespa) vs 24 mlg players (europe+americas+esf koreans). what is the issue?
On September 27 2012 06:33 Baum wrote: I fully understand and support this decision. It's basically a slap in the face of ESF players to invite that many Kespa players. If anything the number should be even but there are a lot more ESF players deserving an invite.
isnt it proleague vs mlg? not kespa vs esf. if mlg side should be all esf korean players, that wouldnt be fair to players like idra, huk, select, etc. no?
24 proleague players (kespa) vs 24 mlg players (europe+americas+esf koreans). what is the issue?
They picked the MvP idea themselves though, it's not something forced upon them. You can't really argue "Yeah but it's called proleague vs mlg" because that's not a cause, that's basically the issue itself - the issue is how they decided to do things.
MLG should have kept it even among ESF and KESPA ... knowing the friction in the past between the two ... to be honest should only be the best players ( which probably be more of ESF then KESPA at the moment ) .
On September 27 2012 00:49 Zorkmid wrote: Was PPV one of the issues?
I highly highly doubt it considering ESF players gained their fame through playing in a PPV tournament (GSL). In my opinion there's nothing wrong with PPV anyway, and I'd view MLG no differently if they took the GSL approach of offering a free version that made your eyes bleed or a paid version that doest.
GSL is free to watch though...you are completely 100% incorrect in saying that GSL is a mandatory paid thing. You have the option to pay for more pixels like every other single tournament. They're not like MLG and trying to monopolize the SC2 scene in their country.
On September 27 2012 00:49 Zorkmid wrote: Was PPV one of the issues?
I highly highly doubt it considering ESF players gained their fame through playing in a PPV tournament (GSL). In my opinion there's nothing wrong with PPV anyway, and I'd view MLG no differently if they took the GSL approach of offering a free version that made your eyes bleed or a paid version that doest.
GSL is free to watch though...you are completely 100% incorrect in saying that GSL is a mandatory paid thing. You have the option to pay for more pixels like every other single tournament. They're not like MLG and trying to monopolize the SC2 scene in their country.
How innocent you are if you there is a good guy/bad guy here
wouldnt suprise me if ESF have woken up and smelt the coffee.. yeh they got a shedload of money from winning all the tournaments but flying all round the world to every event or other event for people like MC isnt beneficial in long term... Thats one of the reasons that Kespa players will pick and choose only a small handful of tournaments if that.. One of the main reasons they werent going to enter GSL because this season or the next... ESF needs to realise Kespa will catch them and overtake them unless they pull the finger out of the ass and start practice and not flying around the world...
It seems this title is very sensationalist, for instance Last in his interview said
Lastly, I want to let my teammates know that I am anxiously waiting to hear from them about what happened regarding MLG.
, which means the schedule is basically conflicting with GSL, which means I'm sure ESF players didn't declined their invites as a concerted move but because they're already very busy and the prizepool isn't worth the hassle. Especially that ESF players knows very well how is it to play cross server.
If they would rather go back to washing dishes then playing in competitive leagues then let them. You would think that while they are still able to compete with the KESPA palyers they would jump at the opportunity to make some money before most of their careers end.
Its going to be interesting to see what happens when KESPA proleague begins and if any of the teams start buying some of the big names from the ESF teams. If that dosent happen then the power is going to go to the one whos players perform the best in the OSL and GSL. If for example in 3 months the ro16 for both the OSL and GSL consists of 80% KESPA or GOM players respectively, then im pretty sure international leagues will be inviting those guys, even worse viewership of one of the leagues would drastically drop.
If KESPA and GOM continue to not work together then it wouldnt be to far fetched to imagine the leagues being rigged in some way for their respective players to become dominent. Otherwise the KESPA proleague the crown jewel that runs for 10 months a year, would basically lose prestige and a lot of viewers particulary form the foreign community. For GOM their team league would also lose credibility and have to fold and ESF teams in general would find it hard to keep finding sponserships when they are constantly out performed by the KESPA players.
So if the current top GSL players are playing at the highest skill ceilling that exists in SC2, then the best the KESPA players can do is compete with them equally and that would allow for both leagues to continue existing. If however KESPA players are able to reach a higher level, that allows them to consistently outperform the GSL players like in BW or if for some reason the skill set needed in SC2 suits B-teamers more and as a result does not allow KESPA players to ever match the GOM players, then it is inevitable that one of these leagues disapers or drastically changes unless GOM and KESPA come to some kind of compromise.
On September 27 2012 07:24 ChoiSulli wrote: If they would rather go back to washing dishes then playing in competitive leagues then let them. You would think that while they are still able to compete with the KESPA palyers they would jump at the opportunity to make some money before most of their careers end.
Its going to be interesting to see what happens when KESPA proleague begins and if any of the teams start buying some of the big names from the ESF teams. If that dosent happen then the power is going to go to the one whos players perform the best in the OSL and GSL. If for example in 3 months the ro16 for both the OSL and GSL consists of 80% KESPA or GOM players respectively, then im pretty sure international leagues will be inviting those guys, even worse viewership of one of the leagues would drastically drop.
If KESPA and GOM continue to not work together then it wouldnt be to far fetched to imagine the leagues being rigged in some way for their respective players to become dominent. Otherwise the KESPA proleague the crown jewel that runs for 10 months a year, would basically lose prestige and a lot of viewers particulary form the foreign community. For GOM their team league would also lose credibility and have to fold and ESF teams in general would find it hard to keep finding sponserships when they are constantly out performed by the KESPA players.
So if the current top GSL players are playing at the highest skill ceilling that exists in SC2, then the best the KESPA players can do is compete with them equally and that would allow for both leagues to continue existing. If however KESPA players are able to reach a higher level, that allows them to consistently outperform the GSL players like in BW or if for some reason the skill set needed in SC2 suits B-teamers more and as a result does not allow KESPA players to ever match the GOM players, then it is inevitable that one of these leagues disapers or drastically changes unless GOM and KESPA come to some kind of compromise.
Well, except you forgot one point: KeSPA players are not allowed to attend foreign tournaments because ... they are under KeSPA.
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
ESF is being waaay too hormonal about this. The whole point is to beat kespa as a united global force. MLG Doesn't want ESF vs. Kespa they can make that on their own......
All this MvP hate is really getting on my nerves... so much ignorance and general stupidity.
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
KeSPA created BW eSports and GOM wanted to make their own league (using KeSPA progamers) using Blizzard as buffer. Most of SC2 interest came from BW history/Esports... Oh wait...
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
what international events? wcg, which they allowed? bw tsl, why would messi play for k-league or advertise nfl in europe? or are you talking foreigners in korea...there were many.
or are you talking sc2? kespa just got into sc2 and look what they're doing, proleague vs mlg, wcs, wcg, gsl?
Jesus motherfucking Christ on a pogo stick juggling chainsaws.
TWO. That's it. Two (2) (dos) (II) players, according to this article, who HAPPEN to be on eSF teams, have declined to participate. The other people specifically named in the article (the 6 Koreans) are actually participating in the tournament, and happen to NOT be on eSF teams.
If you have a fucking source that you can point to, Slasher, that says "The following eSF players were invited, and declined to participate" that is longer than TWO names, do it. Because 2 players do not a boycott make, and your article is written to confuse the issue. (Intentionally, or just really bad sentence structure, I don't know. But there are a lot of people here that can't read as carefully as I apparently do and think that MC, Puma, etc, will not be participating when in fact they are.)
If you are going to make a freaking wild ass statement in an article who's ACTUAL title is "MLG vs KeSPA Broadcast starts Thursday", and then represent it to all of TL as "ESF teams/players decline MLG MvP Invites", have something better than a questionable quote from FXOBoss (who is yet to say anything here, or on Twitter) and 'sources'.
Even if you are correct in your presented argument, I still demand an apology for that article, as it is poorly written and, as stated previously, even below what I expect out of Fox News.
(Yes, I guess this means Slasher has turned me into a hater. As well as completely off of gamespot. Congrats!)
Edit:
Breaking news! EGStephano.RC secret member of eSF!
On September 27 2012 02:05 Fuego wrote: I'm really surprised the ball hasn't dropped for everyone yet.
MLG and KeSPA have a partnership. MLG and KeSPA decide to create a tournament together which involves their players fighting against each other. To make it even more obvious they call it 'MLG vs Proleague'. MLG invites half of the competitors from their roster of players (basically anyone who has attended an MLG) and KeSPA invites the other half of the competitors from their roster of players (see 'Proleague').
How is this unfair? If you want to bitch about it being unfair then surely you should bitch about the amount of foreigners being invited over the better GOM Koreans. I see no problem with what MLG have done.
But I see a problem here, since KeSPA will roflstomp the opposition so hard, it will not be a tournament.
PS. Then again, I am all for it, let the elephants stomp everyone in their way, I want to see the backlash after the tournament is done.
On September 27 2012 08:04 felisconcolori wrote: Jesus motherfucking Christ on a pogo stick juggling chainsaws.
TWO. That's it. Two (2) (dos) (II) players, according to this article, who HAPPEN to be on eSF teams, have declined to participate. The other people specifically named in the article (the 6 Koreans) are actually participating in the tournament, and happen to NOT be on eSF teams.
If you have a fucking source that you can point to, Slasher, that says "The following eSF players were invited, and declined to participate" that is longer than TWO names, do it. Because 2 players do not a boycott make, and your article is written to confuse the issue. (Intentionally, or just really bad sentence structure, I don't know. But there are a lot of people here that can't read as carefully as I apparently do and think that MC, Puma, etc, will not be participating when in fact they are.)
If you are going to make a freaking wild ass statement in an article who's ACTUAL title is "MLG vs KeSPA Broadcast starts Thursday", and then represent it to all of TL as "ESF teams/players decline MLG MvP Invites", have something better than a questionable quote from FXOBoss (who is yet to say anything here, or on Twitter) and 'sources'.
Even if you are correct in your presented argument, I still demand an apology for that article, as it is poorly written and, as stated previously, even below what I expect out of Fox News.
(Yes, I guess this means Slasher has turned me into a hater. As well as completely off of gamespot. Congrats!)
Edit:
Breaking news! EGStephano.RC secret member of eSF!
Well written. People have got to stop trying to make a scene from what really isn't one.
On September 27 2012 08:04 felisconcolori wrote: Jesus motherfucking Christ on a pogo stick juggling chainsaws.
TWO. That's it. Two (2) (dos) (II) players, according to this article, who HAPPEN to be on eSF teams, have declined to participate. The other people specifically named in the article (the 6 Koreans) are actually participating in the tournament, and happen to NOT be on eSF teams.
If you have a fucking source that you can point to, Slasher, that says "The following eSF players were invited, and declined to participate" that is longer than TWO names, do it. Because 2 players do not a boycott make, and your article is written to confuse the issue. (Intentionally, or just really bad sentence structure, I don't know. But there are a lot of people here that can't read as carefully as I apparently do and think that MC, Puma, etc, will not be participating when in fact they are.)
If you are going to make a freaking wild ass statement in an article who's ACTUAL title is "MLG vs KeSPA Broadcast starts Thursday", and then represent it to all of TL as "ESF teams/players decline MLG MvP Invites", have something better than a questionable quote from FXOBoss (who is yet to say anything here, or on Twitter) and 'sources'.
Even if you are correct in your presented argument, I still demand an apology for that article, as it is poorly written and, as stated previously, even below what I expect out of Fox News.
(Yes, I guess this means Slasher has turned me into a hater. As well as completely off of gamespot. Congrats!)
Edit:
Breaking news! EGStephano.RC secret member of eSF!
Well written. People have got to stop trying to make a scene from what really isn't one.
So did MLG just not invite any of the top ESF Koreans.
I don't get how there are so many non-Koreans in an MLG vs Kespa tournament. I'm sure this was voiced already. But, the top 8 of the Summer Championship are: Leenock, First, Thestc, Taeja, Violet, Hero, Revival and Heart. None are going, but were some invited?
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
On September 27 2012 08:04 felisconcolori wrote: Jesus motherfucking Christ on a pogo stick juggling chainsaws.
TWO. That's it. Two (2) (dos) (II) players, according to this article, who HAPPEN to be on eSF teams, have declined to participate. The other people specifically named in the article (the 6 Koreans) are actually participating in the tournament, and happen to NOT be on eSF teams.
If you have a fucking source that you can point to, Slasher, that says "The following eSF players were invited, and declined to participate" that is longer than TWO names, do it. Because 2 players do not a boycott make, and your article is written to confuse the issue. (Intentionally, or just really bad sentence structure, I don't know. But there are a lot of people here that can't read as carefully as I apparently do and think that MC, Puma, etc, will not be participating when in fact they are.)
If you are going to make a freaking wild ass statement in an article who's ACTUAL title is "MLG vs KeSPA Broadcast starts Thursday", and then represent it to all of TL as "ESF teams/players decline MLG MvP Invites", have something better than a questionable quote from FXOBoss (who is yet to say anything here, or on Twitter) and 'sources'.
Even if you are correct in your presented argument, I still demand an apology for that article, as it is poorly written and, as stated previously, even below what I expect out of Fox News.
(Yes, I guess this means Slasher has turned me into a hater. As well as completely off of gamespot. Congrats!)
Edit:
Breaking news! EGStephano.RC secret member of eSF!
Well written. People have got to stop trying to make a scene from what really isn't one.
So did MLG just not invite any of the top ESF Koreans.
I don't get how there are so many non-Koreans in an MLG vs Kespa tournament. I'm sure this was voiced already. But, the top 8 of the Summer Championship are: Leenock, First, Thestc, Taeja, Violet, Hero, Revival and Heart. None are going, but were some invited?
Watching LO3, MLGLee said invites were offered, but he didn't say to whom exactly - kindof implied maybe. Although Leenock and Taeja have a fairly decent reasoning if they did decline in their current GSL runs.
On September 27 2012 08:04 felisconcolori wrote: Jesus motherfucking Christ on a pogo stick juggling chainsaws.
TWO. That's it. Two (2) (dos) (II) players, according to this article, who HAPPEN to be on eSF teams, have declined to participate. The other people specifically named in the article (the 6 Koreans) are actually participating in the tournament, and happen to NOT be on eSF teams.
If you have a fucking source that you can point to, Slasher, that says "The following eSF players were invited, and declined to participate" that is longer than TWO names, do it. Because 2 players do not a boycott make, and your article is written to confuse the issue. (Intentionally, or just really bad sentence structure, I don't know. But there are a lot of people here that can't read as carefully as I apparently do and think that MC, Puma, etc, will not be participating when in fact they are.)
If you are going to make a freaking wild ass statement in an article who's ACTUAL title is "MLG vs KeSPA Broadcast starts Thursday", and then represent it to all of TL as "ESF teams/players decline MLG MvP Invites", have something better than a questionable quote from FXOBoss (who is yet to say anything here, or on Twitter) and 'sources'.
Even if you are correct in your presented argument, I still demand an apology for that article, as it is poorly written and, as stated previously, even below what I expect out of Fox News.
(Yes, I guess this means Slasher has turned me into a hater. As well as completely off of gamespot. Congrats!)
Edit:
Breaking news! EGStephano.RC secret member of eSF!
Well written. People have got to stop trying to make a scene from what really isn't one.
So did MLG just not invite any of the top ESF Koreans.
I don't get how there are so many non-Koreans in an MLG vs Kespa tournament. I'm sure this was voiced already. But, the top 8 of the Summer Championship are: Leenock, First, Thestc, Taeja, Violet, Hero, Revival and Heart. None are going, but were some invited?
Watching LO3, MLGLee said invites were offered, but he didn't say to whom exactly - kindof implied maybe. Although Leenock and Taeja have a fairly decent reasoning if they did decline in their current GSL runs.
Leenock and Taeja weren't invited, they were both top 8 at MLG Raleigh and are seed to MLG Dallas.
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
This , as much as People dislike kespa they kept the game we loved ( and still love ) going . The fact they got more invites isn't that big of a deal since it is KesPa vs MLG wouldn't be KesPa with all KesPa players getting put through a gauntlet of qualifiers where they get knocked out . The Gom/ ESF players have done this all before and the 8 invites are world class players that have proved themselves. Everyone wants to see the legends vs the veterans of sc2 .
On September 27 2012 08:04 felisconcolori wrote: Jesus motherfucking Christ on a pogo stick juggling chainsaws.
TWO. That's it. Two (2) (dos) (II) players, according to this article, who HAPPEN to be on eSF teams, have declined to participate. The other people specifically named in the article (the 6 Koreans) are actually participating in the tournament, and happen to NOT be on eSF teams.
If you have a fucking source that you can point to, Slasher, that says "The following eSF players were invited, and declined to participate" that is longer than TWO names, do it. Because 2 players do not a boycott make, and your article is written to confuse the issue. (Intentionally, or just really bad sentence structure, I don't know. But there are a lot of people here that can't read as carefully as I apparently do and think that MC, Puma, etc, will not be participating when in fact they are.)
If you are going to make a freaking wild ass statement in an article who's ACTUAL title is "MLG vs KeSPA Broadcast starts Thursday", and then represent it to all of TL as "ESF teams/players decline MLG MvP Invites", have something better than a questionable quote from FXOBoss (who is yet to say anything here, or on Twitter) and 'sources'.
Even if you are correct in your presented argument, I still demand an apology for that article, as it is poorly written and, as stated previously, even below what I expect out of Fox News.
(Yes, I guess this means Slasher has turned me into a hater. As well as completely off of gamespot. Congrats!)
Edit:
Breaking news! EGStephano.RC secret member of eSF!
Well written. People have got to stop trying to make a scene from what really isn't one.
So did MLG just not invite any of the top ESF Koreans.
I don't get how there are so many non-Koreans in an MLG vs Kespa tournament. I'm sure this was voiced already. But, the top 8 of the Summer Championship are: Leenock, First, Thestc, Taeja, Violet, Hero, Revival and Heart. None are going, but were some invited?
The only 'confirmed' invites were MKP and Losira. They both declined. There is no evidence of that being for any other reason than personal ones.
Seeing that we have no information on how invites were distributed, there is no real way to tell who else could have been invited. It seems very strange that a player like Leenock, who won the last Championship, would not be invited. However the issue of Leenock was not breached in the article which takes information from a conversation with his team manager, so either Slasher did not ask about it, which would be really strange, or Leenock was not invited. If Leenock was not invited, there is really no way of telling who would be. It could be of course that invites were based on a ranking system pre-dating the last season of MLG, but again, that is pure speculation at this point.
In short, the headline must either:
a) hinge on information not disclosed in the actual article, b) infer a rather long jump between FXOBoSs confirming tension between KeSPA and eSF, which is pretty much taken to be true given the nature of recent events, but cannot be held as the main factor for two players to withdraw, c) be intentionally misleading, inferring an internal, federation-wide decision not to accept invites when we have no data to support such a claim.
I do not have any inside information about this, but the parts of what has been made public does not make up the sum of what the headline would lead anyone to believe.
On September 27 2012 08:43 Wedge wrote: Damn, the Kespa vs ESF players drama and storylines is one of the more interesting ones, and helps add some more drama and excitement to the games.
Yep. If it's real. I am not convinced there is any drama here not of Slasher's making.
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
True, you could also argue that without KeSPA that BW would not of reached the height it did and the skill cap it had . Quality> foreigners for being foreigners
regardless of what the reasons given are and what the outcome of this is, what needs to be understood is simple.
1)ESF players, as well as anyone(Scarlett and Stephano) have the right to decline for whatever reason they want
2)This tournament is an invite only qualifier for an MLG Championship that is heavily biased toward one group of players. MLG have the right to do this, but at this point in SC2 it absolutely tarnishes the integrity of the Championship. An MLG Championship where 1/3 of the player pool is given without merit is somewhere in between being a show match and a real tournament. It loses tremendous prestige and it should surprise no one if players decline invitations. If MLG had made this tournament purely a show match then no one would have a problem with it.
3) Even if they decided to decline on principle that the tournament is rigged against them and that there is little to no incentive for them to play, they have earned the right to be upset with these conditions.(though I'm not even saying that this is the case).
4) when KeSPA decides to pull out of tournaments(or decline invitations) it is because the organization is making decisions for players. When ESF players decline invitations, players are making decisions for themselves. So its not the same as people being upset that KeSPA pulled out of GOM or KeSPA doesn't let ANY(even the less busy players) participate in any foreign tournament(except MLG because MLG pays them).
5) The fact that ESF players made MLG what it is today is clear. If MLG chooses to disrespect the ESF players because of a failed partnership with GOMTV, despite the fact that ESF players supported MLG when MLG needed it more, then its completely understandable that they would be upset(and again, I'm not saying that ESF players ARE upset).
6) why is it that every MLG is hellbent on eliminating competition when every other StarCraft organization in the world(except for KeSPA) is trying their damn hardest to grow the scene together? I'm a fan eager to spend money to help grow eSports, but these shenanigans(wishing death to IPL, claiming GSL is not a legitimate league, breaking relationship because NaNiwa incident, creating "exclusive agreements" with KeSPA, rigging the tournament qualifiers so their favored players get in) make me, the fan that spends hundreds of dollars on esports, fucking hate them.
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
Too bad that never actually happened in the history of BW or you could be on to something
MLG and KESPA have a partnership, I don't know why people didn't see this coming. It's shitty that the "balance" of players is obviously unbalanced in favour of their partner, but I rarely expect anything good out of MLG anyway (when they deliver, they DO do it well to be fair), but this KESPA partnership was always going to result in something like this because of the way KESPA operate.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Just to be super clear, No the ESF did not force Leenock to not play in the event, it was entirely his decision, I cannot speak for other players as I do not speak to them on a daily basis.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you very much for the clarification.
Now I really, truly wish that this headline would be changed. It is not accurate, it does nothing but promote drama.
I don't see how invite numbers are even a question here. It's MLG vs Kespa. It says it right on the title. Short of a purely Kespa vs ESF tournament, ESF will always have less invites than the Kespa players.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
Makes sense, the ESF players want to be treated equally and fairly with the KESPA players.
I agree that they've done a lot more to help grow MLG than the KESPA players so I see why they'd be a bit annoyed by this. Plus, I thinking it was setting up the ESF players to look bad. If a KESPA player won everyone would start screaming, "OMG! KESPA PLAYERS ARE ALREADY BETTER THAN THE ESF PLAYERS!" despite having three times as many competitors.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
lol. the law & order generation. or is it the good wife?
On September 27 2012 04:04 FXOUnstable wrote: I am 99.9% surethat this comment was not meant as a statement because I was sitting next to fxoboss when he was talking about it and he specifically said to me "why does he keep asking me to go on the record when I don't know the whole story.
It's 3am at the moment and I txt'd boss but i will have to wait for confirmation.
Regardless, players are allowed to decline a tournament whenever they want. It is not up to anyone else other than players if they accept or not.
Players decline the FXO invitational all the time, their reasons are none of anybodies business but their own.
FXO declined an invite into the EGMC. Does this mean we hate eg and want their event to fail? No it doesn't, it means we are in GSTL and IPTL already and don't have time in our schedule for anything else.The players that would have been invited to the MvP league would already be extremely busy with GSL/GSTL/IPL etc so they have barely any time as it is.
People please read this!!! No need for any ESF/Kespa drama -.-.. well yet anyway....
Only two players declined MKP and Losira
MKP said in his interview he wanted to focus only on GSL for this season which easily explains why he pulled out
As for Losira it could be any kind of reasons.... the main point is this isn't ESF playersgetting together and deciding to stick it to MLG or Kespa.... it's two players declining an invite for personal reasons....
So basically, fuck Slasher.
This thread should probably be closed or the OP heavily edited.
On September 27 2012 07:56 FragRaptor wrote: ESF is being waaay too hormonal about this. The whole point is to beat kespa as a united global force. MLG Doesn't want ESF vs. Kespa they can make that on their own......
All this MvP hate is really getting on my nerves... so much ignorance and general stupidity.
Lol, this is rich. Talk about ignorance and stupidity. Maybe try to read more than the OP? ESF isn't even doing anything? Some players just declined to play. This includes Scarlett and Stephano who aren't in eSF...
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
If that's true ESF players are thinking about it wrong, its not Kespa vs ESF its MLG vs Proleague,
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
You mean hearsay. From a known source. That has a specific and well known connection to the individual that was originally quoted. Saying that "he was quoted out of context". Considering that the entire lower half of the article itself is out of context with its actual title and the first few paragraphs.
Vs.
In a story by a guy that relies on "sources" to make an assumption of coordinated action by an organization and provides solely as his evidence that one, short quote. Despite it contradicting the past history of said organization, which has in every case of coordinated action provided an immediate and official statement of intent.
TL; dr - Yes, because FXOUnstable has no reason to lie, nor does FXOBoss, while this assumption by Slasher has driven how many people, exactly, to that crappy article? (And seriously, it is not a well written article, even if every single thing Slasher wrote was absolutely true.)
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
On September 22 2012 17:07 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is wondering what's up with the lack of Esports federation players? You know, MKP, DRG, guys who placed top at a lot of tournaments this year.
We all know what's up with that......
I have a dream that one day this community will rise up and demand equal treatment for equal pro players.
I have a dream that one day the league of Global Starcraft 2 and the Starleague of Ongamenet will be able to sit down together at the table of Esports.
I have a dream that one day even the organization of KESPA, an organization sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of good games and fair play.
This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to MLG with. This will be the day when all professional Starcraft players will be able to play with a new meaning:
"Our game, 'tis of thee, sweet Wings of Liberty, of thee I sing. Land where Brood War died, land of the Terran pride, from every tourney bracket, let good games ring."
And when this happens, when we allow good games to ring, when we let them ring from every tournament and every show match, from every series and every league, we will be able to speed up that day when all pro SC2 players -- Koreans and Foreigners, KESPA and ESF, Teamliquid and EG -- will be able to join hands and sing in the words of that old gaming spirit:
"Good luck have fun! Good luck have fun! Good game well played! Good luck have fun!"
On September 22 2012 17:07 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is wondering what's up with the lack of Esports federation players? You know, MKP, DRG, guys who placed top at a lot of tournaments this year.
We all know what's up with that......
I have a dream that one day this community will rise up and demand equal treatment for equal pro players.
I have a dream that one day the league of Global Starcraft 2 and the Starleague of Ongamenet will be able to sit down together at the table of Esports.
I have a dream that one day even the organization of KESPA, an organization sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of good games and fair play.
This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to MLG with. This will be the day when all professional Starcraft players will be able to play with a new meaning:
"Our game, 'tis of thee, sweet Wings of Liberty, of thee I sing. Land where Brood War died, land of the Terran pride, from every tourney bracket, let good games ring."
And when this happens, when we allow good games to ring, when we let them ring from every tournament and every show match, from every series and every league, we will be able to speed up that day when all pro SC2 players -- Koreans and Foreigners, KESPA and ESF, Teamliquid and EG -- will be able to join hands and sing in the words of that old gaming spirit:
"Good luck have fun! Good luck have fun! Good game well played! Good luck have fun!"
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
lol. the law & order generation. or is it the good wife?
Haven't seen the good wife. I hope it doesn't breed more of them.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
lol. the law & order generation. or is it the good wife?
Haven't seen the good wife. I hope it doesn't breed more of them.
i was just laughing at your use of "heresay" and "on the record" since both statements were hearsay and neither was "on the record" in the legal sense.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
lol. the law & order generation. or is it the good wife?
Hey now. The original Law & Order was legit. The rest of them (and CSI, NCIS, etc) really were crap.
Good move once again by ESF, there is absolutely no reason (at least no good once) to treat Kespa players differently to any other player. This isn't BW and Sc2 has been out for over two years, they made their choice to get into the race late that doesn't mean they should get a free ticket to the front of the line.
Or maybe MLG feels that 24 Kespa players has earned seeds while only 8 ESF players have? I am starting to get really good grounds for boycotting MLG events, not like there aren't more then enough other events to watch.
Im not surprised. Pro players are already so busy as it is with gsl, gstl, ipl, dreamhacks, wcs etc that there is no time left for other tournaments. Esports is going to grow too large (its almost there in my opinion) and pretty soon we will see staggered tournaments, GSL probably still showcasing the top players, and then tiered down from there. The next 6 months will be really interesting.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
lol. the law & order generation. or is it the good wife?
Hey now. The original Law & Order was legit. The rest of them (and CSI, NCIS, etc) really were crap.
Heyheyhey, hold on now. no one can diss Gibbs. NO ONE
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
On September 27 2012 09:08 FXOUnstable wrote: Ok so, FXOBoSs just woke up.
Yes he did go on the record but his comment has been taken out of context, quote given was only as his opinion on one of the factors mentioned when talking to some players on our team. Others include conflicting schedules, prioritizing other events, not enough prize pool etc.
I cannot comment on other players however the conversation with Leenock went along these line. "do you want to play in MvP?" "no too busy with gsl/gstl no time, but kespa 24 esf 8 wtf? sad"
So it was noted by the players but it certainly wasn't all of ESF banding together to not play in the league
Thank you for the update and information. This also reinforces my "Slasher wrote a crappy article" leaning.
So heresay trumps what someone said on the record now?
TL TL TL.
lol. the law & order generation. or is it the good wife?
Hey now. The original Law & Order was legit. The rest of them (and CSI, NCIS, etc) really were crap.
Heyheyhey, hold on now. no one can diss Gibbs. NO ONE
Lennie Briscoe can. And would.
Still can't get over how many people are posting in here taking sides over an argument that isn't even confirmed to exist in any official sense.
On September 27 2012 09:38 Assirra wrote: So since Slasher's information is wrong where does he actually gets it from? Putting the gamespot site as a source is not really believable.
Actually, Gamespot IS Slasher. Slasher wrote the article in Gamespot.
4 ESF seeds in OSL, 4 Kespa seeds in GSL (2 in each code, or was it 4 in code A + 2 in code S ? edit : yes it was), and even then it has nothing to do with anything here :O
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
Read the thread please, what's written in the OP is NOT what's actually going down. According to fxounstable so far only 2 TWO ESF players have declined, and the reason was NOT the unfair treatment. Rumors like this, and allowing this thread to stay up without a big mod note or edit on the OP are really bad since it leaves people like you with the wrong impression from an OP with incorrect information, and the true explanations hidden deeper in the thread and harder to find.
I will always side against Kespa because of what they have done so far in both Broodwar and SC2. They have been nothing but greedy and didn't hesitate to show it to get what they want.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
Please read the goddamn thread and whats been written by people with actual insight in the story (IE. NOT SLASHER)
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
2)It is an MLG vs PL invitational. Hate to say it, but i think eSF is over reacting. Gom and gsl had a partnership earlier and gsl got benefits. The only difference now is that PL and Gom are seen in direct competition.
3) I admire the equal opportunity idea between PL and GOM, but i think gom should just let this happen because everyone is interested, and it will happen eventually.
4) Let's not talk about who deserves what. Because Blizzard deserves everlasting wealth for giving us sc in the first place if you trace it back far enough
On September 27 2012 09:32 dAPhREAk wrote: i was just laughing at your use of "heresay" and "on the record" since both statements were hearsay and neither was "on the record" in the legal sense.
Saying that someone said something on the record is heresay sure!
But for Slasher to report it, doesn't it have to have been said "on the record"?
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
You mean about conflicting schedule? The same thing that was the extremely honest reason why JD and Rain couldn't make it to the GSL before Bliz magically solved the schedule issues? lol sure
Yet again a good choice by ESF. They would get screwed over by the format in a big way.
Honestly i don't like the format either and it's PPV, also the casting is not up to my personal taste. So for me as one viewer it's not a loss, i can imagine for others this news comes as a bumer though.
Ridiculous really. Its a tournament made through the partnership and esf buds in stating they want more seeds? Kespa/mlg made this tournament strictly through the partnership and they should be able to do what they want. I mean the esf initial mOvement for the osl was strictly for esports and sticking for the kespa Players. What does this achieve? Nothing but tension between the organizations. When mlg and kespa is partnered up like so, darn right they'rw going to be favorited and receive some exclusivity.
Hopefully the allegations are false and losira hasnhis own personal reason for dropping out.
Mlg charging for these games are unforgivable. Ipl? Dreamhack? All free. You have a large fanbasr anxious to see the kespa players in action and youre going to put a fee or deny it? If you want to charge... Make the price so that you can get better quality and vod... But make the games itself free
Also, unlike KeSPA, ESF does not kick people out for not following their orders. When ESF players decide not to participate, each player has his say in the matter. I'm 100% sure that if any one of them wanted to participate ESF would not have stopped them from doing so. KeSPA, however, is known to control their players the way they want.
So the important thing is that it's not just ESF doing what they want to do. The players agree to ESF.
On September 27 2012 10:00 Bippzy wrote: 1)I like eSF trying to play hardball.
2)It is an MLG vs PL invitational. Hate to say it, but i think eSF is over reacting. Gom and gsl had a partnership earlier and gsl got benefits. The only difference now is that PL and Gom are seen in direct competition.
3) I admire the equal opportunity idea between PL and GOM, but i think gom should just let this happen because everyone is interested, and it will happen eventually.
4) Let's not talk about who deserves what. Because Blizzard deserves everlasting wealth for giving us sc in the first place if you trace it back far enough
5) none of this is relevant because this article by slasher isn't relevant. He took an openly admitted uninformed thought by Fxoboss, Wrote up a completely sensationalist article based on basically nothing to stir up a shit ton of drama -.-
2 people declined invites... 2!!!!! That is not ESF pulling out their players or anything of the sort. MKP most likely declined to focus on GSL(As he said in his interview he wants to focus solely on this GSL season) Losira declined for an unknown reason.
None of this points to anything even near eSF telling/forcing its players to decline invites -.-
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
You mean about conflicting schedule? The same thing that was the extremely honest reason why JD and Rain couldn't make it to the GSL before Bliz magically solved the schedule issues? lol sure
More conspiracies doesn't change the fact that the article is WRONG and needs to be either edited or simply locked. That comparison is laughable btw, it wasn't just JD and rain. It was all of the Kespa players, even the ones that said in interviews they want to go.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
You mean about conflicting schedule? The same thing that was the extremely honest reason why JD and Rain couldn't make it to the GSL before Bliz magically solved the schedule issues? lol sure
You clearly don't get it. KeSPA restructured the Dual Tournament to ensure that KeSPA had a 50% representation in the Ro16 (before everyone knew how similar KeSPA and ESF pros were). They didn't do it out of the kindness of their heart for ESF, they did it to maximize profits. GSL invited KeSPA pros to maximize profits.
It isn't just that its a conflicting schedule. It's also that this is a complete waste of their time/talent. Let's assume 8 ESF players had all accepted. They waste five weeks of their time in a season where no matter how well they do as a whole only 2 of them will advance to the playoffs. Then those two have to play each other in order to determine which one of them gets the seed and the loser gets nothing except a waste of a month. Then to get a prize outside of the seed he has to beat the remaining EU player, the top NA player, and the last KeSPA pro in the final. All with cross server lag and presumably terrible times of night to play.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
You mean about conflicting schedule? The same thing that was the extremely honest reason why JD and Rain couldn't make it to the GSL before Bliz magically solved the schedule issues? lol sure
More conspiracies doesn't change the fact that the article is WRONG and needs to be either edited or simply locked.
I agree with your opinion regarding the OP. That should be fixed. It is tough to find real info in a 20+ pages thread.
But when progamers don't find time for a prestigious online tournament (you can argue about price payout, but not that playing Kespa players isn't extremely prestigious atm) you have to wonder if schedule is really the reason.
So who's still in the tournament? I heard Stephano, Scarlett + 8 ESF players dropped out. Aside from KeSPA players are there anyone worth watching for this? :S
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
You mean about conflicting schedule? The same thing that was the extremely honest reason why JD and Rain couldn't make it to the GSL before Bliz magically solved the schedule issues? lol sure
You mean, when KeSPA made an official announcement that they wouldn't take part in it because of scheduling issues?
Seems exactly the same as one team guy speaking off the cuff about why his player declined. Rather than, y'know, an official announcement from the eSF organization as a whole. Absolutely the same thing there.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
thats not true at all. MVP, Nestea, DRG and MC all were seeded into OSL. As were the top players on the Kespa side, can't remember who.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
If GSL could give 8 seeds Code S to KeSPA they would've, it would've increased viewership... they just couldn't do it because there's no space without totally revamping the format.
Expect both U&D seeds as well as both Code S seeds to go to KeSPA players this year.
Kespa revamped their format, too. The whole Dual tournament was cut to less than half the slots of what it used to be for Kespa players to make room for the ESFs (with whom they make less money than with Kespa players).
I more and more have the feeling that ESF with Blizz's help puts a pistol into Kespa's face and dictates whatever they feel like.
How about reading FXOunstable posts before the conspiracies are starting. The OP is simply WRONG and almost tries to stir up drama.
You mean about conflicting schedule? The same thing that was the extremely honest reason why JD and Rain couldn't make it to the GSL before Bliz magically solved the schedule issues? lol sure
You clearly don't get it. KeSPA restructured the Dual Tournament to ensure that KeSPA had a 50% representation in the Ro16 (before everyone knew how similar KeSPA and ESF pros were). They didn't do it out of the kindness of their heart for ESF, they did it to maximize profits. GSL invited KeSPA pros to maximize profits.
You say that as if 50% representation in their own tournament was a big number. It is not even a medium number, it is an itsy bitsy tiny number. 6.25% was the number of Kespa players in Code S in comparison. That is the equivalent of 1 ESF player in the RO16.
And how the hell is letting noname players (for the Kespa audience) into the OSL maximizing profits? Bisu in the OSL would have made them insanely more profit compared to someone like Oz.
On September 27 2012 10:20 desarrisc wrote: So who's still in the tournament? I heard Stephano, Scarlett + 8 ESF players dropped out. Aside from KeSPA players are there anyone worth watching for this? :S
That's wrong. Stephano and Scarlett dropped out (Stephano doesn't want to deal with it per Scoots, Scarlett has a crappy connection). eSF players LosirA and MKP declined (MKP focusing on GSL, LosirA no comment). Boss said Leenock didn't want to do it because he's got a busy schedule, and is already in MLG Dallas. The other 6 Koreans in the article are participating, and are not eSF members. Nothing has been said by any other player, and there has been no official announcement from eSF that this is a coordinated snub to MLG or KeSPA.
Seriously, I feel like I'm reading Slashdot... doesn't anyone RTFA anymore?
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
On September 27 2012 01:09 Condor Hero wrote: Jesus MLG should just put up the production and prize money for a Kespa vs ESF league. I mean, the pride of MLG is basically GSL players + Stephano and few others.
Hahaha, I agree. A pure KeSPA vs. ESF vs. Stephano/Naniwa league would draw in more viewers.
Add in Vortix and Lucifron to see if they're the real deal. I've been very impressed with them, and I'm one of "those guys" who have lost faith in foreigners' abilities to compete against the Koreans.
Edit: Anyhow, I'm pretty sure this is just being blown out of proportion. Scarlett said internet issues is the problem. Stephano can't be bothered. Apparently, IM is taking the team league pretty seriously, so MC and LosirA are probably practicing their butts off since they don't have to worry about Code S. MKP really doesn't want to be a kong for much longer (he's starting to look desperate when you watch the Ro16 group pickings, hehe). Some online tournament probably loses out in the opportunity cost comparison, even if it's produced by mlg. I'm sure you'll see all these guys at the main event like you always do.
On September 27 2012 10:22 Fenrax wrote: And how the hell is letting noname players (for the Kespa audience) into the OSL maximizing profits? Bisu in the OSL would have made them insanely more profit compared to someone like Oz.
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
On September 27 2012 10:22 Fenrax wrote: And how the hell is letting noname players (for the Kespa audience) into the OSL maximizing profits? Bisu in the OSL would have made them insanely more profit compared to someone like Oz.
Coz they want to get the GSL audience?
The GSL audience is very small compared to the Kespa audience. From a business standpoint I could see letting 4 big names in to attract foreign viewers to their stream but I don't believe they wouldn't have let 50% players from another organization in without massive pressure from Blizz.
On September 27 2012 10:22 Fenrax wrote: And how the hell is letting noname players (for the Kespa audience) into the OSL maximizing profits? Bisu in the OSL would have made them insanely more profit compared to someone like Oz.
Coz they want to get the GSL audience?
The GSL audience is very small compared to the Kespa audience. From a business standpoint I could see letting 4 big names in to attract foreign viewers to their stream but I don't believe they wouldn't have let 50% players from another organization in without massive pressure from Blizz.
If keeping their BW audience were their main goal, then they would've simply not moved to sc2.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
On June 27 2012 14:12 Clefairy wrote: Mvp, NesTea, MC, and DRG did get the seeds. They picked the best 3 for each race based on GSL and foreign tournaments which were MVP, Nestea and MC, and 1 more based on the person who has been getting the best results recently which was DRG.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
Why are you overlooking at the fact that Kepa got 6 players into the RO16 guaranteed?
There is no direct seed in OSL, unlike GSL. You can't compare them directly.
It's more of Kespa getting 6 spots rather than eSF getting 8 spots.
Of course you can compare them. Kespa could have easily made the ESF dual tournament give exactly 1 slot for the OSL to match the rate of Kespa players in GSL. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. But they gave 8! 8 Kespa players in their own tournament RO16 is not a lot. 30 of 32 players in Code S on the other hand is a lot.
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
On June 27 2012 14:12 Clefairy wrote: Mvp, NesTea, MC, and DRG did get the seeds. They picked the best 3 for each race based on GSL and foreign tournaments which were MVP, Nestea and MC, and 1 more based on the person who has been getting the best results recently which was DRG.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
On June 27 2012 14:12 Clefairy wrote: Mvp, NesTea, MC, and DRG did get the seeds. They picked the best 3 for each race based on GSL and foreign tournaments which were MVP, Nestea and MC, and 1 more based on the person who has been getting the best results recently which was DRG.
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
On September 27 2012 10:03 Sepnova wrote: Glad. MLG needs a reality check.
Charging money to WATCH a video game is ridiculous.
MLG = CPL.
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
Your facts are facts either.
They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
Why are you overlooking at the fact that Kepa got 6 players into the RO16 guaranteed?
There is no direct seed in OSL, unlike GSL. You can't compare them directly.
It's more of Kespa getting 6 spots rather than eSF getting 8 spots.
Of course you can compare them. Kespa could have easily made the ESF dual tournament give exactly 1 slot for the OSL to match the rate of Kespa players in GSL. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. But they gave 8! 8 Kespa players in their own tournament RO16 is not a lot. 30 of 32 players in Code S on the other hand is a lot.
Well, that is because OSL is the 'newcomer' to sc2. They kind of needed the eSF players to legitimize their league. Most people would have called it a sham if they just have 1 eSF seed and no open qualifiers. While GSL was more established and could let Kespa players come through the qualifiers.
On September 27 2012 10:06 sLideSC2 wrote: [quote]
I doubt PPV is the reason.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
Your facts are facts either.
They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
Why are you overlooking at the fact that Kepa got 6 players into the RO16 guaranteed?
There is no direct seed in OSL, unlike GSL. You can't compare them directly.
It's more of Kespa getting 6 spots rather than eSF getting 8 spots.
Of course you can compare them. Kespa could have easily made the ESF dual tournament give exactly 1 slot for the OSL to match the rate of Kespa players in GSL. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. But they gave 8! 8 Kespa players in their own tournament RO16 is not a lot. 30 of 32 players in Code S on the other hand is a lot.
OGN runs OSL. Usually it doesn't matter much to whether we use Kespa or OGN but in this case it does.
Anyway. It never was about eSF players getting guaranteed spots; it was about Kespa players getting protection. OGN wants to make OSL an open league in sc2, but decided to protect Kespa players for a season for viewership and what not.
Also, 20 players in code S were in eSF this season, not 30.
------------------
Gotta run errands, can't comment for several hours now.
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money.
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
Your facts are facts either.
They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd.
doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim.
What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense. To which he, not surprisingly, had no answer... like always when it comes to anything remotely business related.
On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote: Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain???
eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament.
they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed.
Why are you overlooking at the fact that Kepa got 6 players into the RO16 guaranteed?
There is no direct seed in OSL, unlike GSL. You can't compare them directly.
It's more of Kespa getting 6 spots rather than eSF getting 8 spots.
Of course you can compare them. Kespa could have easily made the ESF dual tournament give exactly 1 slot for the OSL to match the rate of Kespa players in GSL. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. But they gave 8! 8 Kespa players in their own tournament RO16 is not a lot. 30 of 32 players in Code S on the other hand is a lot.
Well, that is because OSL is the 'newcomer' to sc2. They kind of needed the eSF players to legitimize their league. Most people would have called it a sham if they just have 1 eSF seed and no open qualifiers. While GSL was more established and could let Kespa players come through the qualifiers.
And now the winrate has been at ~50% for a while. The point is that any complaints about an unfair format seem very off when you consider the headstart the nonkespa players got in the major leagues.
Lol this joke of a thread is still going on thanks to the off-topic discussion about Arenas and other things. Can't believe TL is keeping this on the homepage. I would love for a mod to respond to my Website Feedback thread. The OP is a non-story because 1) BoSs didn't have confirmed insider information to give to slasher, he was just taking an educated guess, and 2) only two players declined the invite, one of whom has already said that he only wants to do Code S this season. I guess TL staff haven't learned the lesson from past news stories which turned out to be false because of a miscommunication/misunderstanding across languages and cultures? This thread was instantly put on the homepage, no doubt because Slasher has a connection among the TL staff. Yet, it's founded on unconfirmed conjecture from BoSs. So silly...
On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote: “When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene.
One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
No it wouldn't.
Sorry but that's just garbage.
We still had some sponsorships and we had to work really hard for those. It would still be a grass root development.
On September 27 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
Your facts aren't facts either.
They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd.
doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim.
What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense.
Show me the evidence where MLG said it was because PPV was so successful that they were able to drop it? Thats NEVER what they said, yet so many people took it that way. Thats why it seemed like it made 0 sense. But thats never what happened. Extremely successful spring season, mainly due to Anaheim being ridiculously successful, lead to Full Sail sponsoring the Arenas making them free.
The fact that you call that a few drunken tweets from Sundance tells me that I should stop trying to even explain it because your mind is made up, you hate MLG and Sundance. So, I'm done.
On September 27 2012 11:09 Doodsmack wrote: Lol this joke of a thread is still going on thanks to the off-topic discussion about Arenas and other things. Can't believe TL is keeping this on the homepage. I would love for a mod to respond to my Website Feedback thread. The OP is a non-story because 1) BoSs didn't have confirmed insider information to give to slasher, he was just taking an educated guess, and 2) only two players declined the invite, one of whom has already said that he only wants to do Code S this season. I guess TL staff haven't learned the lesson from past news stories which turned out to be false because of a miscommunication/misunderstanding across languages and cultures? This thread was instantly put on the homepage, no doubt because Slasher has a connection among the TL staff. Yet, it's founded on unconfirmed conjecture from BoSs. So silly...
Yeah, they could at least put a disclaimer at the top of the page like they often do.
On September 27 2012 10:22 Fenrax wrote: And how the hell is letting noname players (for the Kespa audience) into the OSL maximizing profits? Bisu in the OSL would have made them insanely more profit compared to someone like Oz.
Coz they want to get the GSL audience?
The GSL audience is very small compared to the Kespa audience. From a business standpoint I could see letting 4 big names in to attract foreign viewers to their stream but I don't believe they wouldn't have let 50% players from another organization in without massive pressure from Blizz.
If keeping their BW audience were their main goal, then they would've simply not moved to sc2.
They were running out of sponsorship options.
It was a harder sell so ultimately it ran its course.
On September 27 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice.
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
Your facts are facts either.
They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd.
doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim.
What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense. To which he, not surprisingly, had no answer... like always when it comes to anything remotely business related.
Why do you assume that the sponsors aren't paying up?
MLG should always aim for more profit. More profit means more expanding. It's not like Sundance is driving around in a new sports car with a mansion and a yacht.
If you can't afford this tournament, that's fine. Watch other things and hope that MLG makes enough money from this to do even better things in the future. We're all wanting to further e-sports here. There isn't anyone lining their pockets - not yet anyway.
It seems these days you can't sleep if you are involved in e-sports. Because when you wake up, you wake up to shit like this.
What the hell?
I was asked on my opinion and gave it. It went on the record.
The actual problem here is that the people directly involved, haven't opened their mouth. Such as MLG ESF players or managers so everyone decides to jump on the drama bandwagon, when to be honest there is nothing to really see here. This might just be my slipped disc talking cos I'm in alot of pain right now, but what the fuck? Seriously? We expect money to come into an industry where shit like this happens within 8 hours? Words written on the page can be clearly viewed as opinion, thats why I allowed it to be on the record. If I were not expressing my personal opinion, I for sure would not allow it to go on the record, because of shit like this.
The community now has 2 choices, 1) Expect people to go on the record about stuff like this i.e organisations, teams etc. or 2) Stop giving a shit about drama.
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
I am sorry that something quoted and what was intended to be quoted as my opinion, caused so much shit. Next time, I promise I will not give my opinion in any official standpoint because to be honest, I dont need the phone calls at 6 am asking what the fuck is going on.
On September 27 2012 10:24 SupLilSon wrote: [quote]
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance.
MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free.
Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit.
then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events?
I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him.
He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership.
Your facts are facts either.
They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd.
doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim.
What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense. To which he, not surprisingly, had no answer... like always when it comes to anything remotely business related.
Why do you assume that the sponsors aren't paying up?
MLG should always aim for more profit. More profit means more expanding. It's not like Sundance is driving around in a new sports car with a mansion and a yacht.
The point is, you don't know what to expect when it comes to MLG. One week they are firing half their staff because they can't keep up with overhead, then the next week they are being showered with sponsorships. Week after that they need 20$ PPV or they will go into the red and then the next week they made so much money are running out of bank space so they give everything away for free! They either don't know what they are doing or they aren't being straight up about it.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
See why I don't use Twitter?
I only deal with direct phone calls and I love it. BD
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF....
It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness.
Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF....
It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness.
Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
As always, thank you for being a boss, Boss. Hopefully this stops the pages and pages of unnecessary drama.
In light of BoSs' comments confirming he did not have insider, factual information, at the very least the headline for this should be altered. The headline is currently intended to imply that ESF teams declined in unison. That clearly is not the truth.
I would again encourage others to post in my Website Feedback thread.
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF....
It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness.
Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
That sounds fair. I can understand Leenock there. Not enough to gain for the huge investment.
But I think that wasn't what you meant with "balls to explain the truth". What did you mean with that? What kind of truth?
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF....
It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness.
Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
That sounds fair. I can understand Leenock there. Not enough to gain for the huge investment.
But I think that wasn't what you meant with "balls to explain the truth". What did you mean with that? What kind of truth?
cut him some slack, you've been on him asking questions.
we're even lucky we're getting a snippet of what's happening.
if you really want the full truth, ask mlg--they should know what's up.
The point I was making in this thread is that the community fuels peoples money making opportunities. If they don't feel obliged to be at least some-what transparent. Then the community needs to force them to be some what transparent. People aren't asking for balance sheets. Just information on why certain people are playing and certain people aren't. Theres no harm explaining that and I think its completely unacceptable that organisations don't want to explain it. It would save us all a huge deal of time and would save the reddit mods from brain meltdowns.
The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
On September 27 2012 11:44 Scarecrow wrote: The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
if you could explain to us how kespa has helped mlg grow sc2 and esports, please post it here.
if i recall, it's been esf players + foreigners who's getting crowds in mlg (for sc2)
On September 27 2012 11:44 Scarecrow wrote: The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
Holy fuck, is it that hard for people to read the damn thread?
On September 27 2012 11:44 Scarecrow wrote: The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
Holy fuck, is it that hard for people to read the damn thread?
The thread should really be closed I don't know why it was not as soon as it became obvious that the OP is false ~_~
On September 27 2012 11:44 Scarecrow wrote: The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
Any sort of legitimate excuse? Why should the ESF team participate in this MLG joke. MLG is just a tool being used by Kespa to promote the Kespa players. I'm very happy ESF is fighting back and I hope the foreign community decide to join in with ESF team. The ESF teams and the foreign teams made starcraft 2 into what it is today. And we were doing fine before Kespa.
On September 27 2012 11:44 Scarecrow wrote: The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
Holy fuck, is it that hard for people to read the damn thread?
The thread should really be closed I don't know why it was not as soon as it became obvious that the OP is false ~_~
Yeah, I'm just baffled by some posting habits. It's either a.) I didn't read the OP, b.) I didn't read the thread (come on, at least skim the last page, especially when you see Slasher's name attached to an OP???), or c.) .... both. Dear lord.
On September 27 2012 11:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On NASL tonight, it was just announced that Stephano would be dropping out too, claiming that the first place prize pool wasn't worth it.
The broadcaster sounded completely serious, for the record.
On September 27 2012 11:44 Scarecrow wrote: The second ESF boycott without any sort of legitimate excuse. At least Kespa cited scheduling when pulling out. ESF just seems to run on spite, whining about a big brother getting more of the cake.
Any sort of legitimate excuse? Why should the ESF team participate in this MLG joke. MLG is just a tool being used by Kespa to promote the Kespa players. I'm very happy ESF is fighting back and I hope the foreign community decide to join in with ESF team. The ESF teams and the foreign teams made starcraft 2 into what it is today. And we were doing fine before Kespa.
OMG This ISN'T a concerted effort by ESF to boycott the invitational. For fucks sake, read the thread, skim it at the very least and read FXO Boss posts. He stated that there are MULTIPLE REASONS why a FEW ESF players declined and he gave HIS OPINION on another possible reason.
On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote: Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote: I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF....
It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness.
Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
@FxoBoss: I understand. So no drama here, just Leenock not wanting to play because the expected value is too low. Thanks.
There is nothing wrong with that. It is also good that you understood the community being so quick with speculations. We have gotten used to being lied and misinformed about many things going on behind the scenes. About the whole Blizzard vs. Kespa vs. ESF case we know nothing about what really happened. And we will never know the truth about what happened behind the curtains which feels bad because they make money with us and still treat us like that. There are certainly no balls.
And so we quickly jump on bandwagons and suspect someone is lying again to us, even when it is nothing big, like this time. Which causes you to get called by someone at night for nothing, sorry for that. Thanks again for your patience and for answering my questions.
Instead of suspect, why not heckle and get people to answer you. The community has alot of power if its used right. If they act like drama queens they lose their power.
On September 27 2012 11:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On NASL tonight, it was just announced that Stephano would be dropping out too, claiming that the first place prize pool wasn't worth it.
The broadcaster sounded completely serious, for the record.
EG posted this on twitter hours ago. Its legit.
Thanks for the extra source
I'm surprised he's not going to play in that tournament. Is he planning on making more than $10,000 during that tournament period doing something else?
On September 27 2012 11:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On NASL tonight, it was just announced that Stephano would be dropping out too, claiming that the first place prize pool wasn't worth it.
The broadcaster sounded completely serious, for the record.
Scoots confirmed it on Live On Three. He also stated that players (presumably EG players) agreed to participate before knowing it was PPV or knowing the complete details about this tournament.
I guess Stephano did not think playing 50 + games was worth it considering only the winner got any prize money at all. He has a busy schedule with travelling to other tournaments already plus existing commitments to NASL4, Stim to the Win, MSI Pro Cup Worldwide plus team matches. I guess he figures he can more easily qualify for MLG Pool Play via the EU qualifiers which is much less of a time commitment.
On September 27 2012 11:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: On NASL tonight, it was just announced that Stephano would be dropping out too, claiming that the first place prize pool wasn't worth it.
The broadcaster sounded completely serious, for the record.
Scoots confirmed it on Live On Three.
I guess Stephano did not think playing 50 + games was worth it considering only the winner got any prize money at all. He has a busy schedule with travelling to other tournaments already plus existing commitments to NASL4, Stim to the Win, MSI Pro Cup Worldwide plus team matches. I guess he figures he can more easily qualify for MLG Pool Play via the EU qualifiers which is much less of a time commitment.
Ah that's a good point. I personally haven't kept up with all the details (just the general premise of this tournament), and so I didn't realize that only first place gets the cash! I think most tournaments and players prefer more of a trickle down pool...
Yay (sarcasm), with Stephano and Scarlett out of the picture, KESPA is going crush MLG. This tournament is becoming more of a joke, my interest is (almost) gone, with only Naniwa still keeping me interested. And even he is having a heavy time atm.
On September 27 2012 12:06 Nosferatos wrote: Yay (Irony), with Stephano and Scarlett out of the picture, KESPA is going crush MLG. This tournament is becoming more of a joke, my interest is (almost) gone, with only Naniwa still keeping me interested. And even he is having a heavy time atm.
You totally misused the word "irony". It should be "sarcasm".
On September 27 2012 12:06 Nosferatos wrote: Yay (Irony), with Stephano and Scarlett out of the picture, KESPA is going crush MLG. This tournament is becoming more of a joke, my interest is (almost) gone, with only Naniwa still keeping me interested. And even he is having a heavy time atm.
You totally misused the word "irony". It should be "sarcasm".
On September 27 2012 12:06 Nosferatos wrote: Yay (Irony), with Stephano and Scarlett out of the picture, KESPA is going crush MLG. This tournament is becoming more of a joke, my interest is (almost) gone, with only Naniwa still keeping me interested. And even he is having a heavy time atm.
You totally misused the word "irony". It should be "sarcasm".
Thanks, it's not always easy.
well its not always easy because in many situations it can be either. You can say "yay" both sarcastically or ironically.... as far as im concerned, you had it right first time around.
There was no ESF wide decline as the thread title would suggest, only bad, drama stirring journalism. I say this thread should get closed before people turn it into a KeSPA vs ESF shitfest which is happening already.
On September 27 2012 13:58 Roman666 wrote: There was no ESF wide decline as the thread title would suggest, only bad, drama stirring journalism. I say this thread should get closed before people turn it into a KeSPA vs ESF shitfest which is happening already.
+1
if MLG is trying to put on "the next big thing" in SC2 competitive play then they require a prize pool commensurate with the hype.
had the prize pool been say ... $350,000 then i suspect every ESF invitee would gladly participate.
it all comes down to money.
in the past MLG has been able to offer very low prize pools and yet maintain a high level of prestige. now that MLG is stepping out onto a more world wide scale of stage...
money talks.. bullshit walks...
you'd figure being an american Sundance would know this.
its not just a bullshit prize pool but a stupid seeding plan. MLG Fall Championship won't mean much now. about the prestige equivalent of Korea vs The World "GSL World Championship". A bit more than a show match
We cant keep calling these events "eSPORTS" if one of the biggest tournament organizations is having partnerships with certain teams. Take a step out of your nerd bubble and it is very obvious how silly and unprofessional this is.
On September 27 2012 16:37 Fjodorov wrote: We cant keep calling these events "eSPORTS" if one of the biggest tournament organizations is having partnerships with certain teams. Take a step out of your nerd bubble and it is very obvious how silly and unprofessional this is.
sports have been partially biased forever.
in baseball the owner of the milwaukee brewers is the commissioner... half the league is juiced or on HGH. in hockey sam pollock basically robbed every expansion team for high draft picks in basketball we have crooked referees and the NBA tries to call it an isolated incident despite a mountain of evidence suggesting he was working with other referees. and then in international european football ... check out a book called "the fix" by Declan Hill.
horse racing.. talk to anyone who has worked with thoroughbreds....
starcraft/MLG is no better or worse than these higher profile mainstream sports... welcome to the adult world.
Could OP be updated with the importants quotes (i think of FXO's ones) because it's not really helping to know the reactions and what's going on if you don't have time to browse all of the 30pages on the thread ?
I reminded of Serenity... Nothing here is what it seems. Slasher is not the plucky journalist busting a conspiracy. MLG's MvP is not a serious tournament. This is not a fight between two rival organizations. FXOBoss is not the dark mastermind behind it all.
And that's not incense. *boom*
Seriously... There is nothing to see here, move along. I think the transparency we need is from Slasher.
ESF didn't sign partnership with MLG so they shouldn't be randomly spouting stuff like that. Ban ESF from OSL and have Rain vs Last in OSL finals. Simple stuff.
On September 27 2012 19:56 DidYuhim wrote: Oh boy, here we go.
ESF didn't sign partnership with MLG so they shouldn't be randomly spouting stuff like that. Ban ESF from OSL and have Rain vs Last in OSL finals. Simple stuff.
read the goddam thread. The OP is WRONG. The title is WRONG and this thread should be closed or heavily edited. The OP is designed in the way you think all the ESF players declined when only 2 did for various reasons (to busy with GSL/GSTL, lagg and so forth)
so, there are mods to ban this guy, but there are not mods to clarify the op
seriously....
they temp ban people just because they believed the wrong OP and posted their opinion on it. But the wrong OP stays. In the freaking community news forum that normal users can't even make threads in.
so, there are mods to ban this guy, but there are not mods to clarify the op
seriously....
they temp ban people just because they believed the wrong OP and posted their opinion on it. But the wrong OP stays. In the freaking community news forum that normal users can't even make threads in.
WTF is going on????
Its always good to have atleast one anti-kespa thread going.
On September 27 2012 18:51 GTR wrote: Anyone know who replaced Stephano from Europe?
I don't know if anyone will replace him. Were there any replacements for MKP, Losira and Scarlett announced?
they weren't part of the original announcement, whereas stephano was
On Live on Three, MLGLee said Stephano and Scarlett would be replaced. I guess they need time to approach alternative players who agree to sign up. I expect MLG to announce replacements today at some point.
so, there are mods to ban this guy, but there are not mods to clarify the op
seriously....
they temp ban people just because they believed the wrong OP and posted their opinion on it. But the wrong OP stays. In the freaking community news forum that normal users can't even make threads in.
WTF is going on????
Its always good to have atleast one anti-kespa thread going.
This has barely anything to do with KeSPA considering it's MLG who are organizing it and like always people don't like the MLG format. In other words, tell it to the commissioner because he has, "Oh so great ideas."
Your anti-kespa bs is directed in the wrong direction fella.
To review:
- Some players don't like the prize pool (top heavy scenario) - It's online and playing cross-realm play leads to less than optimal conditions - Player scheduling - Tournament Format - What's in it for the players? MLG is making money off them via PPV only, which is limited exposure and we know where CEOs like A.G. stand on this. - Etc.
It really comes down to the players and they are allowed to choose which tournaments they participate in.
As many people seem to agree, this thread shouldn't be on the homepage because its not notable. It would only be notable if ESF declined in unison use to a fairness dispute. As it stands, it's no more notable than specific players declining invites to past Arenas (or any other tournament for that matter). Given the context of a tournament focused on Kespa, the inclusion of this headline on the homepage can easily be read to be an implication that there's a fairness dispute (after all, why else would it be notable?). And indeed, many posters in the thread are assuming it to be a fairness dispute, saying things like "I support ESF's decision".
Moreover, BoSs' posts in the thread contradict his statement in the OP which is read to mean that ESF as a whole "most likely" withdrew due to a disagreement over fairness. In the thread he has stated that individual players chose on their own to decline for varied reasons.
The potential consequence here is that the main foreign community site causes friction between Kespa/eSF/MLG.
I'm really surprised that no TL mod has responded to these concerns from the site's community.
After reading through the thing, and listening to live of three, I can come to only one conclusion. This tournament is bad for the players, it is bad for the teams, it is bad for the competitive spirit (people getting free passes based on no results in SC2), and it does not sound all that great for MLG either. The community can decide with their (lack of) financial support if we think this is good for the scene or not.
I will not support this MLG event, because it is taking complete advantage of the players (no price money except for the no. 1). It gives Kespa players an unfair advantage with 24/48 invites, with no SC2 track record at all. It does not honor any of the effort put in by ESF players in the past. It is based on cross-server replays, only played on the korean servers, essentially screwing over both NA and EU competitors. On top of that it was pretty clear that MLG is forced into this competition by an unknown third party that is puppeteering this stuff, so there is no clarity who is messing up our SC2 scene.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against MLG at all, I love what they are doing in general, don't mind PPV. What I do mind is that the scene is being locked down, and that the competitive spirit is damaged because of it.
so, there are mods to ban this guy, but there are not mods to clarify the op
seriously....
they temp ban people just because they believed the wrong OP and posted their opinion on it. But the wrong OP stays. In the freaking community news forum that normal users can't even make threads in.
WTF is going on????
That's exactly how I feel. This all seems inconsistent with how I thought TL operated. Is this some sort of unlabeled sponsored thread or cross-promotion for game spot?
I know the TL staff doesn't owe anyone an explanation, but I'm legitimately curious as to why the OP hasn't been edited, and why this was chosen as "community news" in the first place. It just doesn't add up to me, but maybe that's why they're running a forum and I'm not.
so, there are mods to ban this guy, but there are not mods to clarify the op
seriously....
they temp ban people just because they believed the wrong OP and posted their opinion on it. But the wrong OP stays. In the freaking community news forum that normal users can't even make threads in.
WTF is going on????
That's exactly how I feel. This all seems inconsistent with how I thought TL operated. Is this some sort of unlabeled sponsored thread or cross-promotion for game spot?
I know the TL staff doesn't owe anyone an explanation, but I'm legitimately curious as to why the OP hasn't been edited, and why this was chosen as "community news" in the first place. It just doesn't add up to me, but maybe that's why they're running a forum and I'm not.
Well they know Slasher and assume he is right and yet don't bother to read Boss his posts. The only conclusion i can give.
Moderating a single post is entirely different from researching a complicated subject.
I've renamed the title. The old title is not incorrect but given the new information I feel the new title is better since it implies a lot less, edited in the post from FXO, and removed it from news.
Isn't this MLG vs Proleague, why did MLG invite esf players anyway? If ESF players are considered from MLG side, then to include enough foreigners, it is not possible to invite many esf players. And also not that many esf players competed in MLG before.
On September 28 2012 01:29 ElephantBaby wrote: Isn't this MLG vs Proleague, why did MLG invite esf players anyway? If ESF players are considered from MLG side, then to include enough foreigners, it is not possible to invite many esf players. And also not that many esf players competed in MLG before.
And, ESF is turning KeSPA mode day by day.
Because all non-kespa players are MLG players of course. yaaaaay marketing.
On September 28 2012 00:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Moderating a single post is entirely different from researching a complicated subject.
I've renamed the title. The old title is not incorrect but given the new information I feel the new title is better since it implies a lot less, edited in the post from FXO, and removed it from news.
Thank you, Nazgul. The title was questionable and implied a great deal. (I still dislike the OP for previously stated reasons.)
I'm kind of interested in if you have anything interesting to say yourself, after research, but I also would rather just let the whole thing die. (But I do want to say thank you first.)
On September 28 2012 01:29 ElephantBaby wrote: Isn't this MLG vs Proleague, why did MLG invite esf players anyway? If ESF players are considered from MLG side, then to include enough foreigners, it is not possible to invite many esf players. And also not that many esf players competed in MLG before.
And, ESF is turning KeSPA mode day by day.
Because all non-kespa players are MLG players of course. yaaaaay marketing.
Even if all ESF players are considered MLG players, then Proleague got 24 players, then MLG side also need 24 players, due to the tournament title MLG vs Proleague. In this case, invite more foreigners than ESF players is completely reasonable from MLG. If they invite more esf players than foreigners, it will just be like GSL vs Proleague, instead of MLG.
On September 27 2012 23:50 Domus wrote: After reading through the thing, and listening to live of three, I can come to only one conclusion. This tournament is bad for the players, it is bad for the teams, it is bad for the competitive spirit (people getting free passes based on no results in SC2), and it does not sound all that great for MLG either. The community can decide with their (lack of) financial support if we think this is good for the scene or not.
I will not support this MLG event, because it is taking complete advantage of the players (no price money except for the no. 1). It gives Kespa players an unfair advantage with 24/48 invites, with no SC2 track record at all. It does not honor any of the effort put in by ESF players in the past. It is based on cross-server replays, only played on the korean servers, essentially screwing over both NA and EU competitors. On top of that it was pretty clear that MLG is forced into this competition by an unknown third party that is puppeteering this stuff, so there is no clarity who is messing up our SC2 scene.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against MLG at all, I love what they are doing in general, don't mind PPV. What I do mind is that the scene is being locked down, and that the competitive spirit is damaged because of it.
I see your point with the price mone only for the first. But the fact that more Kespa players than ESF players are invited is not unfair in any way. That is a pure business decision by MLG. The whole tournament is made to introduce the Kespa players to the community, so it it is only natural that many of them are invited.
Therefore it also has nothing to do with thankfulness and it also doesn't undermine the competitive spirit. See for a single ESF player it changes nothing. In fact more Kespa players would improve an ESF's player's chances of winning the whole thing if ESF players are truly better than Kespa players. About the real skill level we don't know yet exactly, but so far the win rate has been around 50% and guys like Rain, Hero, Flash and some others have shown pretty good games and success.
Also note that Kespa players did not lose a single bad word about the very biased distribution of slots into the two big tournaments (GSL/OSL). ESF players got eight of sixteen (50%) guaranteed slots into the OSL RO16 whereas Kespa players only got two of 32 (6.25%) Code S spots. In GSL Rain proved himself while JD failed, in OSL at least half of the semi finalists will be Kespa players. So it is not like they haven't proven themselves at all.
It is an unusual situation for everyone with the switch from BW to SC2 and we don't know even half of the stuff that is going on behind the scenes. But what we know for sure is that by boycotting tournaments for "fairness" reasons you are hurting Esports. I can tell you that all the Kespa players are extremely dedicated to Esports. Go get that pass, pay the 10$. Even if the format is not the best, it is not much money and you will get a buttload of high quality SC2.
On September 28 2012 07:56 opterown wrote: for $10 you will only get 19-32 games, not that great a deal imo especially compared with gsl plus their english production is kinda meh atm
You know every player is playing every other player, right? There are six matches today with six more match days to follow. That's.... that's not 19-32 games, is that that is. Plus there are playoffs, which is eight additional match days.
On September 28 2012 07:56 opterown wrote: for $10 you will only get 19-32 games, not that great a deal imo especially compared with gsl plus their english production is kinda meh atm
You know every player is playing every other player, right? There are six matches today with six more match days to follow. That's.... that's not 19-32 games, is that that is. Plus there are playoffs, which is eight additional match days.
Wow great job by ESF players. They were basically MLG's best friend, then MLG found kespa and just sold out and think they are too cool for ESF. I guess this just proves that nice guys finish last.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
On September 28 2012 13:44 brokenLoL wrote: Wow great job by ESF players. They were basically MLG's best friend, then MLG found kespa and just sold out and think they are too cool for ESF. I guess this just proves that nice guys finish last.
Well too be fair MLG and GOM was not in the best relationship since Naniwa thing, and certainly after GSTL final @ IPL4.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
I personally have no opinion either way. But I certainly see peoples criticisms of the fact that an invite tournament provides seeding into the MLG pro circuit. Especially since the invitees haven't even played at a proper MLG tournament prior to this invite tournament.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
I personally have no opinion either way. But I certainly see peoples criticisms of the fact that an invite tournament provides seeding into the MLG pro circuit. Especially since the invitees haven't even played at a proper MLG tournament prior to this invite tournament.
mlg players have mlg experience, that was the point for their invite afaik. proleague players have their proleague experience and this tournament is merging of the two. why are people splitting hairs about this? as if these proleague players are no name scrubs.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
I personally have no opinion either way. But I certainly see peoples criticisms of the fact that an invite tournament provides seeding into the MLG pro circuit. Especially since the invitees haven't even played at a proper MLG tournament prior to this invite tournament.
mlg players have mlg experience, that was the point for their invite afaik. proleague players have their proleague experience and this tournament is merging of the two. why are people splitting hairs about this? as if these proleague players are no name scrubs.
I have more problem with # of seeding given out than anything else. It is a cross server glorified online show match involving 48 players, no matter how qualified they are. And I think most people agree it is not a bracket well suited for determining player's skill level. MLG is giving out 8 spots to group play from it somehow, which is 1/4 of total group spots if same format as previous championship. 2 I can totally agree to, 8 just seems a lot more like a publicity stunt than anything else.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
I personally have no opinion either way. But I certainly see peoples criticisms of the fact that an invite tournament provides seeding into the MLG pro circuit. Especially since the invitees haven't even played at a proper MLG tournament prior to this invite tournament.
mlg players have mlg experience, that was the point for their invite afaik. proleague players have their proleague experience and this tournament is merging of the two. why are people splitting hairs about this? as if these proleague players are no name scrubs.
Depends on how much significance you place on the competition from the hybrid proleague. Splitting hairs over 2 or 4 or watever seeds doesn't really matter to me; MLG can do what they want. ESF players can also feel like it isn't worth to them in terms of time and money and whatnot. The amount of interest will be shown in the viewer numbers.
EDIT: I personally am not going to watch this tournament because I don't think a cross-server tournament will show good games. The only reason I purchased the MLG arenas is due to the FPV of the players, since that isn't available, I don't think the tourny is worth the price point.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
I personally have no opinion either way. But I certainly see peoples criticisms of the fact that an invite tournament provides seeding into the MLG pro circuit. Especially since the invitees haven't even played at a proper MLG tournament prior to this invite tournament.
mlg players have mlg experience, that was the point for their invite afaik. proleague players have their proleague experience and this tournament is merging of the two. why are people splitting hairs about this? as if these proleague players are no name scrubs.
Depends on how much significance you place on the competition from the hybrid proleague. Splitting hairs over 2 or 4 or watever seeds doesn't really matter to me; MLG can do what they want. ESF players can also feel like it isn't worth to them in terms of time and money and whatnot. The amount of interest will be shown in the viewer numbers.
EDIT: I personally am not going to watch this tournament because I don't think a cross-server tournament will show good games. The only reason I purchased the MLG arenas is due to the FPV of the players, since that isn't available, I don't think the tourny is worth the price point.
For your last point, Lee said on Lo3 that that would be available at some point, I think. I don't remember exactly, but he definitely brought up watching a match from Jaedong's perspective.
On September 29 2012 02:48 Pudge_172 wrote: Just saw how the bracket is... Kespa player guaranteed a spot in the finals.... no way I'm paying for this....
so does mlg side, 1 mlg finalist vs 1 proleague finalist.
wtf is wrong with people lol
People don't like the automatic seed into the MLG procircuit without any qualification process.
Technically they did the qualification process through the actual format. so perhaps we should edit your post and remove the automatic seed with format with regards to your distaste for the process.
I personally have no opinion either way. But I certainly see peoples criticisms of the fact that an invite tournament provides seeding into the MLG pro circuit. Especially since the invitees haven't even played at a proper MLG tournament prior to this invite tournament.
I'm sure these KeSPA players won't be able to make it out of the open brackets if they didn't get automatic seeds. Since open brackets @ MLGs are so packed full of talented players and MLG players are dominating this tournament. lmao
The reason for the free seeds is to attract KeSPA players to MLG events. Why would Flash want to waste time preparing for the GSL or OSL to compete against minor league competition? He could probably find better competition at a random PC room.
EPT
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