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On September 17 2012 19:43 PiGStarcraft wrote:
It's not about skill it's about growing the scene across all countries not just those already thriving.
SC2 is so new that building it up is just as important as rewarding those at the top.
You talk about how it needs to be interesting so not just being all korean but instead suggest "All Korean and all where I'm from, Europe" and even suggest more spots for Europe then Asia. If you want to follow the approach of let's put the highest skilled and most deserving players in it HAS to be 90% Koreans you can't just say "we'll put more koreans then other countries, but not as many as is worth their skill". You can't pick and choose like that either it's all skill or all based on something else like promoting eSports in regions based on games sales.
Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene.
But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh.
Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^
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Not much to say spain, france and belarus took over the lead in europe in sc2. But atleast they still lose in the amount of pros. Quantity also matters hehe.
I guess they had sweden and ukraine on low priority because they gave them high chance of making it without a direct seed from the national qualifier.
The system really doesn't bother me alot, as europe sends a good lineup off different countries. And not being in it is maybe a big motivation to get better.
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On September 17 2012 19:58 4ZakeN87 wrote:
Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene.
But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh.
Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^
The problem is that every "better system" is entirely subjective. The fairest system in terms of skill is going to have the worst representation of different countries because it would be almost exclusively Koreans so every system has to be in a balance between the two. Every World Championship works this way, look at soccer, it would be 90% European and South American teams if the qualification was skill-based, but since FIFA wants to appeal to as many people as possible, they try to maintain a balance where there is at least some representation for every continent. (Aside from this, the easiest solution is to root for players for their play or personality instead of reducing another sport to nationalism.)
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I really think any direct seeds from national qualifiers are a mistake, especially when it's given out in a kind of random way (Some said it was amount of copies but that is not a good excuse).
I think
9 EU
9 NA
9 Asia
3 SA
2 SEA
This is pretty even, sure there might be more koreans, but unless you do it like WCG with it going national > global, you will always have koreans dominate the majority of asian qualifiers, with maybe 1 or 2 other from asia making it in every year.
As long as they keep National > Continental > Global, then the representation per country at the global finals will always be oddly balanced.
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Remove direct seeds except maybe one slot for the hosting nation as they skew the qualification system in a single or double elimination style tournament. Maybe the only special exception should be separating Koreans and rest of Asia to grow/support the Non-Korean Asian scene.
Everything else suggested introduces (more) bias into the system and benefits players "who people think are good" against "who are actually good". And only little bias can change the outcome of tournaments greatly as SC2 is a very fickle game. If we ran the tournament again next week, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a completely different Top 8 (except for Stephano being on top). VortiX and Lucifron looked above the rest of the pack in the last weekend, but bombed out only one (or two) weeks before in the EPS open.
I think the qualification system stands on two (imho sensible) pillars: Support local scene and allow the qualification for everyone. This means as a consequence: 1) well-organized regional qualifiers run as an outstanding event and 2) slot distribution according to active player base (NOT pro player base).
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There is no way on earth that if you're doing it on merit of progaming skill that EU should have more spots than Asia.
Direct seeds should go all together I think although they would need to do something about the fact that Taiwan and China would have no players in the finals otherwise.
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On September 17 2012 19:58 4ZakeN87 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 19:43 PiGStarcraft wrote:
It's not about skill it's about growing the scene across all countries not just those already thriving.
SC2 is so new that building it up is just as important as rewarding those at the top.
You talk about how it needs to be interesting so not just being all korean but instead suggest "All Korean and all where I'm from, Europe" and even suggest more spots for Europe then Asia. If you want to follow the approach of let's put the highest skilled and most deserving players in it HAS to be 90% Koreans you can't just say "we'll put more koreans then other countries, but not as many as is worth their skill". You can't pick and choose like that either it's all skill or all based on something else like promoting eSports in regions based on games sales. Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene. But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh. Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^
Swedish players just played badly and dropped the ball on home turf. This is the fault of Naniwa and Sase for messing up in qualifying and Thorzain, Sortof and Seiplo for playing so poorly this weekend.
It's not Blizzard's fault Swedish players played poorly, stop trying to cheat the system to compensate for their failings.
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On September 17 2012 19:43 DKR wrote:
I'd remove the national qualifiers completely, reduce US seeds and run with:
7 seeds Europe
9 seeds Asia
6 seeds NA
4 seeds SA
2 seeds SEA
4 seeds to be awarded at blizzards discretion similar to code S seeds in GSL <- not many complaints about these
National qualifiers were the best thing about WCS, probably more interesting than the continentals.
Especially the Canadian, UK, Australian and German tournaments were great.
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On September 17 2012 21:25 Play Crack The Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 19:58 4ZakeN87 wrote:On September 17 2012 19:43 PiGStarcraft wrote:
It's not about skill it's about growing the scene across all countries not just those already thriving.
SC2 is so new that building it up is just as important as rewarding those at the top.
You talk about how it needs to be interesting so not just being all korean but instead suggest "All Korean and all where I'm from, Europe" and even suggest more spots for Europe then Asia. If you want to follow the approach of let's put the highest skilled and most deserving players in it HAS to be 90% Koreans you can't just say "we'll put more koreans then other countries, but not as many as is worth their skill". You can't pick and choose like that either it's all skill or all based on something else like promoting eSports in regions based on games sales. Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene. But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh. Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^ Swedish players just played badly and dropped the ball on home turf. This is the fault of Naniwa and Sase for messing up in qualifying and Thorzain, Sortof and Seiplo for playing so poorly this weekend. It's not Blizzard's fault Swedish players played poorly, stop trying to cheat the system to compensate for their failings.
I am not sure where you read all this, but yeah Swedish players did not do great. I agree.
That the swedish players failed of course makes it completely reasonable that Germany and Taiwan have direct qualifications to the world final and that US might have equal amount of players as Korea. Cause as your post suggest those two things are tightly linked with one another.
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I agree. NA should definitely have less spots than both Europe and Asia.
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I agree that giving direct seeds to nations is a stupid and ultimately unfair idea. However, your example of KrasS getting in is a little unfair tbh. It could have just as well been Socke, HasuObs, DarkForce and TLO (or Goody) in the top4, but KrasS made it. So, that argument is a little weak if it wasn't for the fact that a rather unknown player made it.
The thing with weighing nations and areas correctly is that it is extremely hard to do and that skills shift constantly. I don't think Ukraine is that strong currently. A couple months ago, Dimaga, White-Ra and Strelok were amongst the very best players of their respective race, at least in Europe. Now? Not so much imo and while there are "new" very strong players in Ukraine now, I don't think they are as good as the guys mentioned earlier were in their prime.
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On September 17 2012 21:35 4ZakeN87 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 21:25 Play Crack The Sky wrote:On September 17 2012 19:58 4ZakeN87 wrote:On September 17 2012 19:43 PiGStarcraft wrote:
It's not about skill it's about growing the scene across all countries not just those already thriving.
SC2 is so new that building it up is just as important as rewarding those at the top.
You talk about how it needs to be interesting so not just being all korean but instead suggest "All Korean and all where I'm from, Europe" and even suggest more spots for Europe then Asia. If you want to follow the approach of let's put the highest skilled and most deserving players in it HAS to be 90% Koreans you can't just say "we'll put more koreans then other countries, but not as many as is worth their skill". You can't pick and choose like that either it's all skill or all based on something else like promoting eSports in regions based on games sales. Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene. But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh. Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^ Swedish players just played badly and dropped the ball on home turf. This is the fault of Naniwa and Sase for messing up in qualifying and Thorzain, Sortof and Seiplo for playing so poorly this weekend. It's not Blizzard's fault Swedish players played poorly, stop trying to cheat the system to compensate for their failings. I am not sure where you read all this, but yeah Swedish players did not do great. I agree. That the swedish players failed of course makes it completely reasonable that Germany and Taiwan have direct qualifications to the world final and that US might have equal amount of players as Korea. Cause as your post suggest those two things are tightly linked with one another.
Taiwan having a seed makes sense, because otherwise Korea will just take every Asian spot every time.
Your post is ridiculous because you're saying the seedings should reflect the quality of your pro scene and then somehow come to this absurd conclusion that EU deserves more spots than Korea, which is laughable.
Either it's done based on community size and 'everyone gets a chance' like it is now or it's pure merit of how many good players you have and Korea gets 25 spots in a 32 man tournament.
Germany, France and Russia probably shouldn't have got a spot but that's pretty minor and not the real reason Swedes and Ukrainians didn't qualify, they didn't qualify because they played badly when the time came to step up.
You can't have it both ways. EU is not as good as Korea and do not deserve more spots in a merit system.
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So god damn retarded that France and the UK got 3 spots and Sweden only got 3 spots. It's silly tbh, and France got a seed into the WCS finals and Sweden didn't? Like I said, silly. It's all about the money I guess.
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On September 17 2012 21:43 Mandalor wrote:
I agree that giving direct seeds to nations is a stupid and ultimately unfair idea. However, your example of KrasS getting in is a little unfair tbh. It could have just as well been Socke, HasuObs, DarkForce and TLO (or Goody) in the top4, but KrasS made it. So, that argument is a little weak if it wasn't for the fact that a rather unknown player made it.
The thing with weighing nations and areas correctly is that it is extremely hard to do and that skills shift constantly. I don't think Ukraine is that strong currently. A couple months ago, Dimaga, White-Ra and Strelok were amongst the very best players of their respective race, at least in Europe. Now? Not so much imo and while there are "new" very strong players in Ukraine now, I don't think they are as good as the guys mentioned earlier were in their prime.
There's definitely a case of the massive overrating of certain players.
Strelok for example has no history of winning or placing well at major tournaments but he's been around a long time and tries to qualify for everything so he's a well known player.
White Ra hasn't been relevant as a player for over a year now.
Dimaga is the most inconsistant player in Europe so no surprise at all he managed to mess up in a system where you need to consistantly win to get anywhere.
For Swedes:
Naniwa might be considered a top foreigner but his pedigree at EU Tournaments is really poor and it's the norm for him to come to foreign LAN's and lose early to players he and most of the community considers him better than.
Sase is another player with huge hype on the back of a few good tournaments runs, a lot of bad tournament runs and losing in Code A/Code B a lot. If you put most high EU GM players on Quantic and flew them to every tournament going they'd sooner or later beat a Korean player too but Sase's never won anything big and he's far more likely to disappoint than he is to succeed.
Thorzain is usually good for winning one tournament a year, playing well in 2-3 tournaments and then playing really poorly in about 10 of the other tournaments he plays in. Another player who is wildly inconsistant so no surprise he struggles when you need to keep on winning in order to progress.
The problem with Sc2 is that unlike tennis and golf most players don't play in most tournaments so people's perspectives of who is good and who isn't is extremely skewed and often not at all in touch with reality.
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On September 17 2012 21:43 Mandalor wrote:
I agree that giving direct seeds to nations is a stupid and ultimately unfair idea. However, your example of KrasS getting in is a little unfair tbh. It could have just as well been Socke, HasuObs, DarkForce and TLO (or Goody) in the top4, but KrasS made it. So, that argument is a little weak if it wasn't for the fact that a rather unknown player made it.
The thing with weighing nations and areas correctly is that it is extremely hard to do and that skills shift constantly. I don't think Ukraine is that strong currently. A couple months ago, Dimaga, White-Ra and Strelok were amongst the very best players of their respective race, at least in Europe. Now? Not so much imo and while there are "new" very strong players in Ukraine now, I don't think they are as good as the guys mentioned earlier were in their prime.
Well to put it short Germany had more qualifications seeds then any other country in addition to having a direct qualification seed. If the system was based on SC2 skill level this would suggest that Germany is the best EU SC2 country with some margin. I am sorry but there is no way that this is justified. If Germany had equal chances to Sweden or Ukraine I would considered it a pretty generous offer for Germany.
The system is however not based on skill but number of SC2 licenses, thus are the German players rather privileged.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Theres any easy way for Sweden to get more slots in the next European WCS (and a direct seed to the world WCS)... encourage everyone you know to buy HOTS.
Blizzard are there to sell games and this tournament reflects that.
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On September 17 2012 21:50 M7Jagger wrote:
So god damn retarded that France and the UK got 3 spots and Sweden only got 3 spots. It's silly tbh, and France got a seed into the WCS finals and Sweden didn't? Like I said, silly. It's all about the money I guess.
From the play of the Swedish players this weekend, they probably only deserved 1 spot.
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On September 17 2012 22:00 4ZakeN87 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 21:43 Mandalor wrote:
I agree that giving direct seeds to nations is a stupid and ultimately unfair idea. However, your example of KrasS getting in is a little unfair tbh. It could have just as well been Socke, HasuObs, DarkForce and TLO (or Goody) in the top4, but KrasS made it. So, that argument is a little weak if it wasn't for the fact that a rather unknown player made it.
The thing with weighing nations and areas correctly is that it is extremely hard to do and that skills shift constantly. I don't think Ukraine is that strong currently. A couple months ago, Dimaga, White-Ra and Strelok were amongst the very best players of their respective race, at least in Europe. Now? Not so much imo and while there are "new" very strong players in Ukraine now, I don't think they are as good as the guys mentioned earlier were in their prime. Well to put it short Germany had more qualifications seeds then any other country in addition to having a direct qualification seed. If the system was based on SC2 skill level this would suggest that Germany is the best EU SC2 country with some margin. I am sorry but there is no way that this is justified. If Germany had equal chances to Sweden or Ukraine I would considered it a pretty generous offer for Germany. The system is however not based on skill but number of SC2 licenses, thus are the German players rather privileged.
And your original post is so contradictory. Basically you want 'skill' to be the determining factor for the EU spots. But in the global distribution, you want EU to be the same as Asia because otherwise, Korea would get 'too many' spots. So you are proposing 2 different standards.
The system is however not based on skill but number of SC2 licenses, thus are the NA/EU players rather privileged.
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On September 17 2012 21:47 Play Crack The Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 21:35 4ZakeN87 wrote:On September 17 2012 21:25 Play Crack The Sky wrote:On September 17 2012 19:58 4ZakeN87 wrote:On September 17 2012 19:43 PiGStarcraft wrote:
It's not about skill it's about growing the scene across all countries not just those already thriving.
SC2 is so new that building it up is just as important as rewarding those at the top.
You talk about how it needs to be interesting so not just being all korean but instead suggest "All Korean and all where I'm from, Europe" and even suggest more spots for Europe then Asia. If you want to follow the approach of let's put the highest skilled and most deserving players in it HAS to be 90% Koreans you can't just say "we'll put more koreans then other countries, but not as many as is worth their skill". You can't pick and choose like that either it's all skill or all based on something else like promoting eSports in regions based on games sales. Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene. But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh. Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^ Swedish players just played badly and dropped the ball on home turf. This is the fault of Naniwa and Sase for messing up in qualifying and Thorzain, Sortof and Seiplo for playing so poorly this weekend. It's not Blizzard's fault Swedish players played poorly, stop trying to cheat the system to compensate for their failings. I am not sure where you read all this, but yeah Swedish players did not do great. I agree. That the swedish players failed of course makes it completely reasonable that Germany and Taiwan have direct qualifications to the world final and that US might have equal amount of players as Korea. Cause as your post suggest those two things are tightly linked with one another. Taiwan having a seed makes sense, because otherwise Korea will just take every Asian spot every time. Your post is ridiculous because you're saying the seedings should reflect the quality of your pro scene and then somehow come to this absurd conclusion that EU deserves more spots than Korea, which is laughable. Either it's done based on community size and 'everyone gets a chance' like it is now or it's pure merit of how many good players you have and Korea gets 25 spots in a 32 man tournament. Germany, France and Russia probably shouldn't have got a spot but that's pretty minor and not the real reason Swedes and Ukrainians didn't qualify, they didn't qualify because they played badly when the time came to step up. You can't have it both ways. EU is not as good as Korea and do not deserve more spots in a merit system.
So much anger here. Well no Korea deserves more seeds, the system that I suggested would give them more then they have now. But I think most people agree that you cannot have a world final with 25 out 32 players coming from one nation. That would just be another GSL tournament with some additional foreigners being thrown in which is not the point of the event. Even with only 8 players attending Korea would still be the favorite by a hugh margin towards any other country.
Regardless is that irrelevant in the case that NA for instance have 9 seeds for the world final. I think you will have a hard time finding any none NA person thinking that it is a good idea.
Anyway, yes I think I can have it both ways, it is called a compromise. You should try it sometime.
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On September 17 2012 22:13 4ZakeN87 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 21:47 Play Crack The Sky wrote:On September 17 2012 21:35 4ZakeN87 wrote:On September 17 2012 21:25 Play Crack The Sky wrote:On September 17 2012 19:58 4ZakeN87 wrote:On September 17 2012 19:43 PiGStarcraft wrote:
It's not about skill it's about growing the scene across all countries not just those already thriving.
SC2 is so new that building it up is just as important as rewarding those at the top.
You talk about how it needs to be interesting so not just being all korean but instead suggest "All Korean and all where I'm from, Europe" and even suggest more spots for Europe then Asia. If you want to follow the approach of let's put the highest skilled and most deserving players in it HAS to be 90% Koreans you can't just say "we'll put more koreans then other countries, but not as many as is worth their skill". You can't pick and choose like that either it's all skill or all based on something else like promoting eSports in regions based on games sales. Well I guess my suggestion was a little bit biased but then if you look at it from a country perspective there is no doubt that most skilled countries are in EU and thus is the current system not giving the best representation of the foreign scene. But yeah I agree there is an conflict about scenes growing and the current skill level and removing one seed from SEA might have been a little harsh. Regardless as I finished my post, my point is not that I have come up with a perfect solution, just that I think that the current system is bad and there are better options. As I think have been suggested by several posts already. It is not that hard to suggest a system that is better then the current one imo ^.^ Swedish players just played badly and dropped the ball on home turf. This is the fault of Naniwa and Sase for messing up in qualifying and Thorzain, Sortof and Seiplo for playing so poorly this weekend. It's not Blizzard's fault Swedish players played poorly, stop trying to cheat the system to compensate for their failings. I am not sure where you read all this, but yeah Swedish players did not do great. I agree. That the swedish players failed of course makes it completely reasonable that Germany and Taiwan have direct qualifications to the world final and that US might have equal amount of players as Korea. Cause as your post suggest those two things are tightly linked with one another. Taiwan having a seed makes sense, because otherwise Korea will just take every Asian spot every time. Your post is ridiculous because you're saying the seedings should reflect the quality of your pro scene and then somehow come to this absurd conclusion that EU deserves more spots than Korea, which is laughable. Either it's done based on community size and 'everyone gets a chance' like it is now or it's pure merit of how many good players you have and Korea gets 25 spots in a 32 man tournament. Germany, France and Russia probably shouldn't have got a spot but that's pretty minor and not the real reason Swedes and Ukrainians didn't qualify, they didn't qualify because they played badly when the time came to step up. You can't have it both ways. EU is not as good as Korea and do not deserve more spots in a merit system. So much anger here. Well no Korea deserves more seeds, the system that I suggested would give them more then they have now. But I think most people agree that you cannot have a world final with 25 out 32 players coming from one nation. That would just be another GSL tournament with some additional foreigners being thrown in which is not the point of the event. Even with only 8 players attending Korea would still be the favorite by a hugh margin towards any other country. Regardless is that irrelevant in the case that NA for instance have 9 seeds for the world final. I think you will have a hard time finding any none NA person thinking that it is a good idea. Anyway, yes I think I can have it both ways, it is called a compromise. You should try it sometime.
Compromise is what we have now.
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EPT
