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On September 12 2012 08:02 Lysenko wrote:Edit: Show nested quote +So happy for this...now I get to tank my account into silver and troll people with cannons and carriers :D So good news for you diamond people in whatever division im in (lol) you can have my spot in masters. I wonder if there are enough people doing this to affect the integrity of ladder rankings? I'm not entirely sure what the effect on the people around them would be -- the games won to people who just leave while on the way down might cancel out the games they win with cannons and carriers, though since those games won and lost are uncorrelated with the other player's skill, it might just have the effect of adding random noise to everyone else's ratings. Two of the first three games I played were people beating me with exactly the same aggressive early push, timed almost to the second, when I hadn't seen that particular opening more than once or twice in the last 200 games. (I almost never see well-timed anything at my level.) One of those guys had placed into bronze this season. I'm guessing a lot of people have had the idea to tank their ratings and troll people.
I have also seen this and it kind of hits the biggest issue I have with the ladder (which I not sure how they would ever fix tbh)
you have no idea who going you are playing you can go from playing a macro player who is ok to playing a guy who will 6 pool a terran
play a guy who plays really well but with a goofy strat and wins cause although its goofy and you think the guy is just bad and not really understand the game he is actaully much higher skill level than you and is just trolling check the match history and guy lost all 5 placements and then never lost a game since
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Just wondering, is the no-tier ranking system (the "high rank means you're high in your league") working? Because so far, I don't feel like anything changed. Maybe the season just needs to kick off when lot of players play their placements, but still.
And so far a nice streak.
In this order, I was getting: 6 pooled, 2 raxed with concussive and SCV pull, 4 gated and Marine + SCV all-inned (okay, my fault, i tried nexus first). I thought platinum was a type of metal, not some kind of cheese.
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Because so many people say yes and no about the new no tier/division system, can someone please confirm for me:
Is tier/division really removed? Therefore now it is safe to say that, if you are ranked 20, it reflects your skill better than previous seasons, its this simple right? Some say yes some no thats why i am confused -.-
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On September 12 2012 18:02 dynwar7 wrote:
Because so many people say yes and no about the new no tier/division system, can someone please confirm for me:
Is tier/division really removed? Therefore now it is safe to say that, if you are ranked 20, it reflects your skill better than previous seasons, its this simple right? Some say yes some no thats why i am confused -.-
Is the Bonus points system still there? Then your rank in a league does not show skill. It's easy as that.
Why? A little example to explain: 2 players, A and B, start the season at the exact same MMR and in the same league. Player A plays 40 games with a 50/50 win/loss ratio. Due to the bonus pool, he will have let's say 240 points (12+12 for 20 wins and -12 for 20 losses). His MMR will quite much stay the same, because of the 50/50 ratio.
Player B plays just 10 games, but wins them all. With the bonus pool, he'll have 240 points aswell (12+12 per win). His MMR will have climbed a lot, because of the 100% win ratio.
Both players would have equal number of points and roughly the same rank in their league (if tiers really don't exist anymore), although player B is much better (MMR would reflect this) than player A.
If both had used up their bonus pool this would get a little more accurate, but the league rank doesn't care about it.
This example is very simplified and just to show the major flaw of the points system.
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5 games played and still no placement 
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Iceland2128 Posts
On September 12 2012 18:20 BurningRanger wrote:
Is the Bonus points system still there? Then your rank in a league does not show skill. It's easy as that.
Your rank in your division is a pretty good representation of your skill relative to others in the division IF you are someone who's used up all your bonus points, and you're only comparing against other people who have used all of their bonus points. (For players who have accumulated a small number of bonus points, you can look at their profile, see how many unused bonus points they have, and just add that number to their score for a quick and dirty comparison, also.)
It's true that the ladder system doesn't really give you much of an accurate estimate of MMRs of inactive players. However, if the system showed raw MMR to you, that wouldn't be very informative either about those players' skill levels, because very old MMRs don't reflect people being out of practice, or falling behind in the metagame, or the effects of changes to the population's overall skill level as less-skilled players drop out or active players get better overall.
Edit: However, you can now compare two ACTIVE players in the same league just by looking at their relative point scores. By active, they have to be active enough to be using all their bonus points regularly.
Edit 2:
If both had used up their bonus pool this would get a little more accurate, but the league rank doesn't care about it.
This is not really true. A player with a higher MMR will earn more points for wins until their point value matches their MMR adjusted for their league, so they'll naturally rise in the ratings faster. If you look over a typical division, you can usually draw a line roughly where people aren't keeping up with their bonus points, add on the unused bonus pool for people above that line, and get a pretty good idea of their relative MMRs. That they are using their bonus points will mean they're playing enough to be in equilibrium between their point score and their MMR.
What's deceptive about your example is that your player B is winning 100% of their games but is getting 12 points per win. This can happen, but only if the system has assigned them a very mistaken MMR. This usually only happens when someone either has never played before at all, or they've thrown games to manipulate their rating and started playing at their actual level. It won't usually happen to an active player playing to win.
(Even in those two cases, the points assigned won't be at 12 for very long. What will happen is that they'll start getting fewer points per win, as their MMR lags behind their point increase. Once their MMR stabilizes, they'll achieve a 50/50 win/loss ratio and start getting 12 points per game again.)
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So Metropolis is not back and Tal'Darim is still there. Sucks as hell.
Looks like no changes in mappool. I am sad
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On September 12 2012 20:30 Lysenko wrote:
It's true that the ladder system doesn't really give you much of an accurate estimate of MMRs of inactive players. However, if the system showed raw MMR to you, that wouldn't be very informative either about those players' skill levels, because very old MMRs don't reflect people being out of practice, or falling behind in the metagame, or the effects of changes to the population's overall skill level as less-skilled players drop out or active players get better overall.
For that imo the seasons with their activity check (1 placement match at the start of a season) would filter out inactive players quite well. Players that only play their placement match each season are the exception though, but I don't think this is a problem.
For the overall skill level changing, the promotion lines between leagues can be altered (e.g. not 1000 MMR needed to get from Silver to Gold, but 1100 MMR now). Can't be too hard either.
And the number 12 in my example was just an example too. Just to have a number to calculate with.
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On September 12 2012 20:33 Asturas wrote:So Metropolis is not back and Tal'Darim is still there. Sucks as hell. Looks like no changes in mappool. I am sad
Yep, the only map change is removing the rocks (from the 3rd) at Tal'Darim Altar. Pretty uneventful season when it comes to maps.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
Placed back in plat, kind of annoying after being Diamond since the initial beta. I fell down after taking a break for 3 months last season but I came back before and was facing diamond players at the end of the season so hopefully I'll get back up soon.
Either way won all my games (3) since I got back and placed so time to keep on fighting! <3
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On September 12 2012 21:26 Qikz wrote:
Placed back in plat, kind of annoying after being Diamond since the initial beta. I fell down after taking a break for 3 months last season but I came back before and was facing diamond players at the end of the season so hopefully I'll get back up soon.
Either way won all my games (3) since I got back and placed so time to keep on fighting! <3
You can get back into diamond, I BELIEVE IN YOU!
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Just got this error a bunch of times in a row as I'm trying to search for a 1v1 ladder match...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SQBuH.jpg)
Really weird. I've never ever seen this error before. I restarted SC2 and got the same thing a few more times. I was able to play one game a short while ago, so I'm just gonna close down SC2 for a little while and then try playing again later. Hopefully the problem fixes itself. (EDIT: I can't search for team ladder games either x.x)
Also, all my map preferences were changed... I realized that as my first match of the season was on a map I had downvoted (Ohana), and when I went to go check my preferences, they were all messed up x.x Ominous start for Season 4 lol...
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On September 12 2012 21:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Just got this error a bunch of times in a row as I'm trying to search for a 1v1 ladder match... Really weird. I've never ever seen this error before. I restarted SC2 and got the same thing a few more times. I was able to play one game a short while ago, so I'm just gonna close down SC2 for a little while and then try playing again later. Hopefully the problem fixes itself. (EDIT: I can't search for team ladder games either x.x) Also, all my map preferences were changed... I realized that as my first match of the season was on a map I had downvoted (Ohana), and when I went to go check my preferences, they were all messed up x.x Ominous start for Season 4 lol...
same problem here
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Having problems with bnet right now.
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Lol, got demoted to gold for some reason, I had been playing really well and had only lost 3 out of the last 18 games I had played yet I got demoted. So said "fuck it, lets play som games", played 6 protosses in a row, I cheesed one guy, two tried to cheese me but failed, one disconnected, and only one game was a long macro game and I won every game. Then I lost to a diamond zerg, but won 3 TvT's, I cheesed every game and got back to Platinum, all this in a matter of 60 minutes thank you very much.^^
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Anyone else having their main profile page show 0 career games, 0 games this season, and no 1v1 highest result history despite this being false? Me and a few of my buddies having this problem.
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Won't let me login either (na server).
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Oh, ok, so basically your rank is a pretty good representation of where you are ONLY when you have used all your bonus pool, and also when you compare it to people who have used all their bonus pools, is this correct?
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Iceland2128 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:12 BurningRanger wrote:
For the overall skill level changing, the promotion lines between leagues can be altered (e.g. not 1000 MMR needed to get from Silver to Gold, but 1100 MMR now). Can't be too hard either.
And the number 12 in my example was just an example too. Just to have a number to calculate with.
Thing is, they don't want to reward inactive players for getting a high MMR and then just sitting around. That's the reason for the bonus pool. It's an important thing and you'd see a lot of complaining if there were no mechanism at all to deal with people who play a few games a season and then leave.
As for the numbers in your example -- the numbers are important, because that's what you were using to draw your conclusions. Saying you just picked meaningless numbers for an example makes your result meaningless if it depends on those numbers.
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What I find funny is that according to the OP they are changing the 3v3 and 4v4 by adding old maps to the ladder.
Anyway I'm glad frontier is gone, I think it was the most absurd map still in the mappool (it was a map where a player had 2 regular sized ramps and the 2 others had a huge ramps + a standard ramp). Try to hold speedling push with that 
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EPT
