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On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D
I'd be very surprised if what you refer to as "most of us" are more than 10% of the people reading this. 1-2% sounds more likely to me.
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On September 03 2012 20:22 PiGStarcraft wrote:
Charisma and passion. Then good analysis and understanding.
If I want a dry learning experience about ingame specifics or someone's opinion on a build I'll go talk to clanmates or play ladder. The point of a cast is to just narrate the story. I don't care how insightful you are if you narrate poorly and prioritise dry analysis over play-by-play of ingame battles
I fully agree! I do think there is a lot of opportunity to have a show/cast with the aim being analysis (similar to watching sports news shows where they'll discuss strengths and weaknesses of teams or strategies).
For watching a game, I want to see and hear what's going on. I want some energy from the caster to mirror some of the anxiety that I would feel if I was playing in a similar situation (baiting armies back and forth or hoping my nuke lands).
There's also often down time in the games, and having good analysis or entertaining stories/banter is fine as long as it doesn't take away from what IS happening in the game. (Someone else talked about casters not actually watching everything the observer is showing and actually distracting from the action.)
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On September 03 2012 19:56 Silencioseu wrote:
Was watching TI2 yesterday and TobiWan was pure gold of a caster, and that's what i want to see from sc2 casters, raising the hype, and having good analytical abilities.
You nailed it. The starcraft community needs someone that's equally passionate like tobiwan. I haven't found a single caster that makes me so excited to watch a match. But the again dota is maybe abit more packed with action then sc2 is.
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Some casters deliver wrong information so many times.
I still remeber the MLG match between DRG and MC and when MC was going for 7 gate
all in, the caster (dont remember his name) was like "why isnt MC throwing down the third nexus??? this
is very strange!!!" and I can tell you that it wasnt the first time 7 gate was introduced, but the caster had zero idea
about what was going on. Casters need to work their shit like players put so much effort into practising 10+ hours a
day. I find it really frustrating when casters deliver wrong information on what is going on. Its my first time watching tsl4
this season (didnt even know about it before) and Ive heard Apollo cast and god he is prob one of the best along with
Artosis. His british accent is also so sexy
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In my opinion casters need to have a thing.
For example Artosis has his own analytical style, outlining different possibilities for the players combined with deep knowledge and strengths and weaknesses of the popular builds in the current metagame. When I first saw Warpprism Immortal in PvP in the GSL Artosis already knew it from ladder and could explain the build, what it's trying to achieve and its weaknesses. It just blew my mind. Apart from that Artosis is entertaining and funny and genuinely into the game. I still think he is the perfect caster.
Husky is obviously way different. He doesn't really analyze at all, but he constantly finds ways to genuinely be funny. He actually seems to want to entertain the audience, but doesn't need to rely on old used jokes, because he is creative enough to be funny himself. Even if his cast get stale and boring, he is still as good as the people I consider 'generic' casters.
But listening to him, there is always the chance that his next sentence could be really funny or at least somehow brain-stimulating.
And then there is generic casters like CatsPyjamas, Doa, Moletrap, Khaldor, DJWheat, HD etc.
They just use empty phrase after phrase and tell me obvious stuff like "He is building 6 Marines at a time. Now let's look at our Zerg player. He is going double evo chamber, getting the blabla upgrades." They don't have a thing. They are neither funny nor analytical enough to keep me constantly interested in what they say. They usually don't even have a special "atmosphere" about them like Bitterdam whose casts are kind of like chilling with friends.
They don't have any thing, so they don't add anything to the game.
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On September 03 2012 20:25 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D I agree. There are so many people saying "Caster needs to know everything and be better than MKP&DRG&MC combined" but at the same time say they love to listen to the korean casters eventhough they don't understand a single word that isn't PLAGUUUUUUUU...
It's a minority who watched korean BW vods today, SC2 exploded in terms of population, I do not whatsoever like to listen to korean casts because its just random words being yelled at me.
Let me bring in an example,
A Sitcom, thats entertaining, my favorite of all of them is Scrubs.
Why Scrubs you say? because they don't have fake laughter, I laugh when I think its funny, and I don't need their help to know when something is funny.
The same can be said with casters, some just scream and its awful, especially when it's something that is not worth getting excited over.
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Extremely weird intonation seems to be number 1 on the list of things a caster needs to have. Also talking like there are amazing things happening when absolutely nothing is happening. I find my self muting streams more often than not, recently.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina46 Posts
I think you are underestimating game knowledge of wolf and khaldor.
TB doesn't have a clue about starcraft.
It's been widely recognized that tasteless is losing his passion lately althrough he is still the most charismatic caster by far.
Day9 has a lot of BW game knowledge but some things he says during sc2 casts are pretty cringe, he has way to much false predictions and he goes mad about little moves that give you 20 mineral advantage, but make you use 150 actions (which could be used better for sure). He is still entertaining tho and i love him.
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On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote:
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters.
Great wording and I don't think this is exaggerated at all. It's funny how SC2 as a strategy game gives less strategic insights in a cast compared to all other games. I find it strange how some tournaments still don't realize how much better a cast with a pro player (or something similar) is. There is also the attitude in America to "make it like ESPN" which, in my opinion, is something not to pursuit in esports. Maybe the numbers tell a different story, I don't know. But when I watch and listen to the Homestory Cup, it's like watching a completely different, more interesting game.
To be fair, it is pretty hard for analytical casters to make a breakthrough, especially as you rely much on "cred" from the community. But as a rule of thumb, any caster that aims to be only a caster from the get go often goes into casting for the wrong reasons and should not cast.
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Regarding the suggestion from viewers to casters on what to improve to make them better:
It's almost impossible for a caster to be better for everybody. Some will suggest to improve their game knowledge others to color their casting more, others want more passion and screaming and so on. You can't please them all. I saw several posts asking casters to play more and be in touch with the latest changes to meta game, to be able to recognize things that are going to happen before they even happen. However for me at least that has very little importance (or so i think, maybe i change my opinion when that casting becomes standard).
I'm not interested in the highly technical stuff, i just want entertainment. For me a caster has to be highly passionate, needs a good voice and a great deal of charisma to go with it. For example TB while for some it's not a "top tier" caster for me he's very enjoyable.
Hell, i don't know any korean but i used to watch broodwar on the korean stream instead the english alternatives just to feel the passion that NO foreign caster has. And not only they have the passion in their voice, they make insane crazy sounds to amplify the hot moments in a game and give you a quick shot of adrenaline, but they also have great game knowledge to go with it if you watch a few translated bw games.
For me, the perfect casting team is the old MSL trio. I never knew what they said but damn they got me pumped.
The most anoying thing at any caster - monotonous voice in the exciting parts of the game. To give you a quick recent example - at the end of MOW tournament when Nerchio wins the caster is like "So yeah i think this is it right ? Was it a bo5 no ? "
Are you kidding me ? You have to scream your lungs out in those moments. It left me with such a bad taste :s
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I like when people offer context and background to events in game; this accentuates vocal excitement offered in play-by-play. I watch to learn about the game, so I usually don't listen to the cast unless there is someone offering me a new perspective or insight. I have been casting some events casually, and the majority of my feedback pertains to not sounding excited during the entire game: I don't like to fake emotion so I just grab the whiskey :D
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I think being a good communicator is key followed up by passion and game knowledge. I also dislike when I hear casters talking negatively about players' mistakes (unless they are very obvious). You never know what is going on in players' heads and why they do what they do when they do it. Maybe they are smarter than the casters and saw something in the game they adjusted to or maybe it was a failed adjustment. I always give players the benefit of the doubt because most of the time they are better players than the caster calling them out.
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Passion and speaking in a language you don't fully understand are the key things for me. Watching a match should be like reading a great story that is slowly unraveling before the eyes and every small thing like a kill of a scout, burrow when a mineral line is being raided or an extra hit received while some unit is on retreat should be hyped. If you can read between the lines and see the thoughts of the actors and their future actions, than there is that awesome and rewarding feeling of knowing something without it being explicitly mentioned. When you don't see this, you can still follow the story without it being spoiled by calling it a "GG in a few moments" or proclaiming the next move of actors before they can even act.
The match analysis for sure have a its place during the broadcast, but it should be restricted to post-match only. During the game, the viewer can be given some hints, but never the whole plot. That would be like calling a butler the murderer by a narrator in a detective story, before you are even given enough hints to conclude that.
In other words: caster isn't the narrator, that would be the game-observer. Caster is the atmosphere of the story and maybe a post-match story interpreter.
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This is a really hard question to answer as different viewers want different things.
For a viewer that doesn't understand the game
Enthusiasm, humour and "confidence" (i.e. speaking clearly, not fumbling on your words, filling dead time etc) are probably the most important. If the caster is talking complete shit because they don't understand what is going on, the viewer that doesn't understand the game either won't know the difference.
Currently, there aren't many casters that can educate the uneducated viewer because they themselves do not understand the game or what the players are doing. I hope this changes soon because for someone wanting to get into (or get more into) the pro-scene and understanding the game it's a "wow" moment when you start to appreciate the depth and complexity that is happening in the game. This is really the hook for many people and you appreciate it so much more if you actually play te game.
For a viewer that does understand the game
Game knowledge. This means understanding what is happening in the game. Tell us, what the important timings are with these builds? Is the player taking a big risk based upon the information he has? What styles is this player known for? What is the current metagame on this map, or in this match up? Why did he commit to that engagement? etc etc
Basically every caster in the scene at the moment is garbage when it comes to game knowledge. They actually do not understand what is happening at all and it very evident in their casting. The simply read out the production and unit tabs and literally state what is happening without adding any value for the viewer. Being a "play-by-play" or "colour" caster is a license to be an idiot unfortunately.
The only casters that come to mind that have a clue at all are Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam (although they are much better at Zerg and Protoss match ups).
Enthusiasm, humor and confidence are of course still important but intelligence is to be valued more.
For me personally
I only listen to Artosis, Apollo, Bitterdam and pro-players. If other casters are commentating I put some music on or listen to the Korean commentary when available. I love it when Incontrol, IdrA, Grubby or TLO commentate and I hope they do more of it. I know there other players that commentate but these are the four that I remember from relatively recent events.
They add so much value as commentators it is unbelievable, they actually understand what is going on and can comment intelligently about the game and explain why and what the players are doing. It is a real treat and I wish we had more of it.
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Knowledge and enthusiasm are very much key to being a good caster. Gotta make people want to listen to your voice and what you have to say. Most casters I just tune out b/c they are so monotone or just do not really know what they are talking about. Makes the match more fun when the caster is really getting into the game and can convey that to his viewers as well.
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My favorite casters at the moment include Apollo, Mr. Bitter, Rotterdam, Kaelaris and Khaldor. What I like most is that they are up to date with the current metagame and clearly cast enough to be able to identify what's going on even if they don't have knowledge of a pro player(which isn't needed anyway. There is no need(or time) for deep analysis during the game, afterwards when analysing a replay though, sure). So I much prefer to be told what's going on within the game instead of what my eyes can see.
Obviously I still enjoy mr. excitement as much as the next guy, and even more so when they're paired with the right co-caster. It's supposed to be entertainment after all, so having them call the battles as well as some back and forth funny banter and stuff is always fun and what I think a cast is supposed to be.
Also it's a treat when we get to hear the thoughts and analysis of a pro player in a cast. This is why I really enjoy Homestory Cup. I think it's really special when we have insight in a cast from the likes of IdrA, Grubby, TLO, HasuObs and more.
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I really like that HomeStory approach, some of the best games to watch are when 1-2 pros are "casting" but not really casting but more like talking about what's going on and how they would handle the situation and what happened when they last played against a certain build. I don't like the excitement many casters try to force but when it's just players it's much more relaxed, informative and enjoyable.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
This is exactly why I like actual pro gamers as casters (like at HSC). They just look at the game and talk about it, to each other. They don't try to be extra entertaining, the game itself is entertaining enough.
For me, as a diamond player, who don't know all those small meta game shifts in the pro scene, those insights are very important for me. I cannot see all those small games-in-the-game by myself.
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On September 03 2012 20:27 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D I'd be very surprised if what you refer to as "most of us" are more than 10% of the people reading this. 1-2% sounds more likely to me.
Doesn't matter, when you are BW hipster you count yourself about 100 times more than anyone else.
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I don't get why you dismissed DJ Wheat and TB as "new to SC2".
The game's only been around since 2010, it's not like there are any real seasoned vets. Certainly DJ Wheat has been in eSports since forever and was at the fore of the US SC2 scene from the beginning.
Also you totally ignored other big casters - Apollo, Kaelaris, Crota, Force, Samsc2, Axeltoss etc.
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EPT
