After being on TL for a long time and just being a lurker for most the time, I think it is appropriate that I make a post on this issue.
Introduction I am particularly interested to know what the TL community looks at in terms of caster quality and what makes a caster a good caster (or tolerable).
The reason for my interest is there has been a large volume of posts (on reddit and on TL) regarding Moletrap as a SC2 Caster. A large majority of these posts appear to "bash" or criticise" (whether destructively (eg. he should quit, he his terrible, he has grating voice, etc) or constructively (eg. he just needs better insight, needs to stop yelling etc). Personally, I like Moletrap, he has done a great job for the community and is without a doubt (one of the most) a passionate person who loves gaming and SC2. He dropped everything and went to Korea for heaven's sake.
The purpose of this post is not directed at Moletrap or any particular caster, but is to help all casters (present and aspiring) to focus on KEY issues that the community wants in a casters. For example, is it making play by play, insight in meta game, knowledge of players etc.
For obvious reasons, it is hard for a caster or anyone to know and specialise in all key issues but if a caster can prioritise and (if I can say) "please the majority of the community" then those are the issues they should focus on.
Existing Casters and their Key Issues (if any) At the outset, I have been interested in e-sports since SC:BW and SC2 beta. So I am familiar with a lot of the "popular" casters.
The following are just my opinion of what they contribute to the esport.
List below are what I consider the respective caster to contribute to the community:
Tasteless/Artosis: Clearly both of these casters have the passion, insight into the meta game, knowledge of players, community figures and are both charismatic.
Day9: Again much like Tasteless/Artosis and in addition he produces extra and independent content. Bitterdam: (NASL) Although these are two distinct casters, I consider them again to be much of much like Tasteless/Artosis but in the US!
Wolf: I consider Wolf and Khaldor separately for a reason. Firstly, I do not consider Wolf to be much of anything in the Community. The reason for this is firstly, he does not produce any additional content, secondly his casting is below sub par in my opinion (he has little if any knowledge of players, little if any knowledge of the current meta game, etc), and lastly, and of most importance to me, he is talks about random stuff at the most random time, which I cannot stand. I consider Wolf purely to be play by play caster. Also, I do not consider Wolf to have any passion for the game what so ever. He is always dull in every cast.
I want to note this for the record since I've wanted to say this for so long. When Wolf and Moletrap were casting together at GOM, I got the impression that Wolf never liked Moletrap and he set him up for a fall. I have this suspicion that Moletrap could have done a lot better with a better perception in the community if it wasn’t for Wolf (so many occasions where I saw slight jabs at Moletrap by Wolf, made me sad because I respected Moletrap and he didn't deserve it). Khaldor: Again, similar to Wolf, I consider him to be a play by play caster. Again he does not have the insight that other casters have (eg. day9, artosis, etc). However, I respect Khaldor because he shows passion to esports AND produces independent content (casts other tournaments at his own time). Always a brownie point for me.
Husky/HD: I consider both Husky and HD to be in a category of their own. Both are passionate (clearly!), and both in my opinion are charismatic (although at times I fell like HD is turning into Wolf...), and are clearly play by play casters.
DJ Wheat/Total Biscuit: I put these two casters together because both are "new" to SC2 and have little if any insight into the games or the players. I will say I originally did not like either of their casters, both made clear mistakes and their voice omg!. But they grew on me why, because they love e-sport and produce a lot of content. Props to Total Biscuit for Crank.
Moletrap: I come to him last for a reason. It is clear that he does not have the insight of say Artosis or Day9, etc. But what can be said about Moletrap is he is god damn passionate about esport (go to his youtube channel and you will see games from SC:BW and SC2, in addition you see additional contents (interviews with BW progamers)). Do I like his casting? Yes. He might not be as charismatic as Day9, but when you hear him cast you just get this feeling that he loves what he does. Even if the information is wrong, that to me trumps minor mistakes (and yes they are minor, people have a tendency to make an ant hill into a mountain). That is easy to do if you are trying to "bash" or find something wrong against anyone. Conclusion, Moletrap is a passionate, play by play caster.
So what is Key to being a good caster? Given the above, which do you consider to be important Key issues:
Poll: What is key in a caster ?
Insight (meta-game) (178)
55%
Charisma (78)
24%
Passion (46)
14%
Insight (into Players) (10)
3%
Play by Play (10)
3%
Additional Content (4)
1%
326 total votes
Your vote: What is key in a caster ?
(Vote): Passion (Vote): Insight (meta-game) (Vote): Insight (into Players) (Vote): Play by Play (Vote): Additional Content (Vote): Charisma
Insight and passion are the two most important factors IMO. However, insight without passion can stand on its own, while passion without insight cannot.
Day9 is nothing like Tasteless/Artosis. Khaldor has a lot of insight. Kind of agree with the rest, even though I wouldn't put DJWheat and TB in one group. Sure, both have no insight, but TB can actually be entertaining.
Insight and passion. Play-by-play is useful for those just getting into SC2, but the majority of people watch top tiers pros to learn something new anyways, and for that you need game knowledge.
I think you're letting personal preference cloud and manipulate your opinion of wolf. His voice is annoying, at least it was for me for ages, but I think his casting has improved astronomically. I also think he's one of the best solo casters in the world. He knows he doesn't have to talk constantly. He uses coin phrases like "I dunno about this " and so on, and can sometimes tell stories that tangent and take a while, and although traits like this can be detrimental, he is holistically an excellent caster, he has good synergy with Khaldor, he tells somewhat amusing stories, especially anecdotes about the players, which makes me feel like I know them and is awesome.
He is quite similar to Apollo, he's a less amusing (because of the tastosis synergy) but slightly different Artosis that can function without a Tasteless, which is a big difference. Artosis is good because he has tasteless and vice versa.
Moletrap couldn't be further from this. He's always distracted, he has a pretty bland and half full knowledge of the game, and his anecdotes and personality are just plain annoying. Although there isn't a real solve, annoyingness can be really bad for a caster. It made Code A unwatchable last year.
Charisma is important for entertainment, but it just depends on your mood before watching a game, if I'm watching the semi finals of an MLG where it's Ret vs Oz or IdrA vs a korean terran or MKP vs Parting I want tastosis, and I want day9 and husky, I want screaming, and drama, and a crowd. If I'm watching up and downs or code A, I WANT khaldor and wolf. I want quiet, collected, intelligent chatter about the game with a few chuckles for me and a "woah" when something big happens.
Everyone has their strengths and they all fit somewhere. Except HD... he just doesn't ^^
"Husky/HD" Please, NEVER EVER put them into one category... Husky is one of the best play by play casters around (after TB&Day9), HD is... well, not even close.
Their HDH invitational was the biggest mistake Husky ever made, now his name is forever bound to HD eventhough they are completely different.
Also, didn't we have such threads before? Oh, and where is dApollo on your list ffs?
To add some more content to this post:
The most important factor is passion. If they are passionate about the game, they will either get genuinely excited by stuff that happens (aka TB) or spend a lot of time getting game knowledge (aka dApollo), so passion is the real foundation for every caster, everything else depends on that.
On September 03 2012 16:43 myth_au wrote: After being on TL for a long time and just being a lurker for most the time, I think it is appropriate that I make a post on this issue.
Introduction I am particularly interested to know what the TL community looks at in terms of caster quality and what makes a caster a good caster (or tolerable).
The reason for my interest is there has been a large volume of posts (on reddit and on TL) regarding Moletrap as a SC2 Caster. A large majority of these posts appear to "bash" or criticise" (whether destructively (eg. he should quit, he his terrible, he has grating voice, etc) or constructively (eg. he just needs better insight, needs to stop yelling etc). Personally, I like Moletrap, he has done a great job for the community and is without a doubt (one of the most) a passionate person who loves gaming and SC2. He dropped everything and went to Korea for heaven's sake.
The purpose of this post is not directed at Moletrap or any particular caster, but is to help all casters (present and aspiring) to focus on KEY issues that the community wants in a casters. For example, is it making play by play, insight in meta game, knowledge of players etc.
For obvious reasons, it is hard for a caster or anyone to know and specialise in all key issues but if a caster can prioritise and (if I can say) "please the majority of the community" then those are the issues they should focus on.
Existing Casters and their Key Issues (if any) At the outset, I have been interested in e-sports since SC:BW and SC2 beta. So I am familiar with a lot of the "popular" casters.
The following are just my opinion of what they contribute to the esport.
List below are what I consider the respective caster to contribute to the community:
Tasteless/Artosis: Clearly both of these casters have the passion, insight into the meta game, knowledge of players, community figures and are both charismatic.
Day9: Again much like Tasteless/Artosis and in addition he produces extra and independent content. Bitterdam: (NASL) Although these are two distinct casters, I consider them again to be much of much like Tasteless/Artosis but in the US!
Wolf: I consider Wolf and Khaldor separately for a reason. Firstly, I do not consider Wolf to be much of anything in the Community. The reason for this is firstly, he does not produce any additional content, secondly his casting is below sub par in my opinion (he has little if any knowledge of players, little if any knowledge of the current meta game, etc), and lastly, and of most importance to me, he is talks about random stuff at the most random time, which I cannot stand. I consider Wolf purely to be play by play caster. Also, I do not consider Wolf to have any passion for the game what so ever. He is always dull in every cast.
I want to note this for the record since I've wanted to say this for so long. When Wolf and Moletrap were casting together at GOM, I got the impression that Wolf never liked Moletrap and he set him up for a fall. I have this suspicion that Moletrap could have done a lot better with a better perception in the community if it wasn’t for Wolf (so many occasions where I saw slight jabs at Moletrap by Wolf, made me sad because I respected Moletrap and he didn't deserve it). Khaldor: Again, similar to Wolf, I consider him to be a play by play caster. Again he does not have the insight that other casters have (eg. day9, artosis, etc). However, I respect Khaldor because he shows passion to esports AND produces independent content (casts other tournaments at his own time). Always a brownie point for me.
Husky/HD: I consider both Husky and HD to be in a category of their own. Both are passionate (clearly!), and both in my opinion are charismatic (although at times I fell like HD is turning into Wolf...), and are clearly play by play casters.
DJ Wheat/Total Biscuit: I put these two casters together because both are "new" to SC2 and have little if any insight into the games or the players. I will say I originally did not like either of their casters, both made clear mistakes and their voice omg!. But they grew on me why, because they love e-sport and produce a lot of content. Props to Total Biscuit for Crank.
Moletrap: I come to him last for a reason. It is clear that he does not have the insight of say Artosis or Day9, etc. But what can be said about Moletrap is he is god damn passionate about esport (go to his youtube channel and you will see games from SC:BW and SC2, in addition you see additional contents (interviews with BW progamers)). Do I like his casting? Yes. He might not be as charismatic as Day9, but when you hear him cast you just get this feeling that he loves what he does. Even if the information is wrong, that to me trumps minor mistakes (and yes they are minor, people have a tendency to make an ant hill into a mountain). That is easy to do if you are trying to "bash" or find something wrong against anyone. Conclusion, Moletrap is a passionate, play by play caster.
So what is Key to being a good caster? Given the above, which do you consider to be important Key issues:
Poll: What is key in a caster ?
Insight (meta-game) (178)
55%
Charisma (78)
24%
Passion (46)
14%
Insight (into Players) (10)
3%
Play by Play (10)
3%
Additional Content (4)
1%
326 total votes
Your vote: What is key in a caster ?
(Vote): Passion (Vote): Insight (meta-game) (Vote): Insight (into Players) (Vote): Play by Play (Vote): Additional Content (Vote): Charisma
wolf is a great caster, what the fuck are you smoking exactly? this sounds like a wolf hate thread if anything
let me add to what themarine adds to casting, he is analysis caster for osl.
for example during of the games, terran pushed to punish a expanding protoss with a hand full of marines with a bunker. during that, themarine explained that the protoss will think terran will be expanding behind that push and the protoss will think that he will be able to expand with ease and set up for mid game (standard play). protoss went on to poke with his own stalkers and terran had marines at the tower and few marines at the natural ramp to deny scouting. at the same time themarine said the terran should hide some of his marines because what he was doing was one base 3rax.
the mind game explanation is missing along in english casts from what i can tell.
themarine isn't always right but he puts a lot of insight on what the players think based on what they see.
On September 03 2012 16:43 myth_au wrote: After being on TL for a long time and just being a lurker for most the time, I think it is appropriate that I make a post on this issue.
Introduction I am particularly interested to know what the TL community looks at in terms of caster quality and what makes a caster a good caster (or tolerable).
The reason for my interest is there has been a large volume of posts (on reddit and on TL) regarding Moletrap as a SC2 Caster. A large majority of these posts appear to "bash" or criticise" (whether destructively (eg. he should quit, he his terrible, he has grating voice, etc) or constructively (eg. he just needs better insight, needs to stop yelling etc). Personally, I like Moletrap, he has done a great job for the community and is without a doubt (one of the most) a passionate person who loves gaming and SC2. He dropped everything and went to Korea for heaven's sake.
The purpose of this post is not directed at Moletrap or any particular caster, but is to help all casters (present and aspiring) to focus on KEY issues that the community wants in a casters. For example, is it making play by play, insight in meta game, knowledge of players etc.
For obvious reasons, it is hard for a caster or anyone to know and specialise in all key issues but if a caster can prioritise and (if I can say) "please the majority of the community" then those are the issues they should focus on.
Existing Casters and their Key Issues (if any) At the outset, I have been interested in e-sports since SC:BW and SC2 beta. So I am familiar with a lot of the "popular" casters.
The following are just my opinion of what they contribute to the esport.
List below are what I consider the respective caster to contribute to the community:
Tasteless/Artosis: Clearly both of these casters have the passion, insight into the meta game, knowledge of players, community figures and are both charismatic.
Day9: Again much like Tasteless/Artosis and in addition he produces extra and independent content. Bitterdam: (NASL) Although these are two distinct casters, I consider them again to be much of much like Tasteless/Artosis but in the US!
Wolf: I consider Wolf and Khaldor separately for a reason. Firstly, I do not consider Wolf to be much of anything in the Community. The reason for this is firstly, he does not produce any additional content, secondly his casting is below sub par in my opinion (he has little if any knowledge of players, little if any knowledge of the current meta game, etc), and lastly, and of most importance to me, he is talks about random stuff at the most random time, which I cannot stand. I consider Wolf purely to be play by play caster. Also, I do not consider Wolf to have any passion for the game what so ever. He is always dull in every cast.
I want to note this for the record since I've wanted to say this for so long. When Wolf and Moletrap were casting together at GOM, I got the impression that Wolf never liked Moletrap and he set him up for a fall. I have this suspicion that Moletrap could have done a lot better with a better perception in the community if it wasn’t for Wolf (so many occasions where I saw slight jabs at Moletrap by Wolf, made me sad because I respected Moletrap and he didn't deserve it). Khaldor: Again, similar to Wolf, I consider him to be a play by play caster. Again he does not have the insight that other casters have (eg. day9, artosis, etc). However, I respect Khaldor because he shows passion to esports AND produces independent content (casts other tournaments at his own time). Always a brownie point for me.
Husky/HD: I consider both Husky and HD to be in a category of their own. Both are passionate (clearly!), and both in my opinion are charismatic (although at times I fell like HD is turning into Wolf...), and are clearly play by play casters.
DJ Wheat/Total Biscuit: I put these two casters together because both are "new" to SC2 and have little if any insight into the games or the players. I will say I originally did not like either of their casters, both made clear mistakes and their voice omg!. But they grew on me why, because they love e-sport and produce a lot of content. Props to Total Biscuit for Crank.
Moletrap: I come to him last for a reason. It is clear that he does not have the insight of say Artosis or Day9, etc. But what can be said about Moletrap is he is god damn passionate about esport (go to his youtube channel and you will see games from SC:BW and SC2, in addition you see additional contents (interviews with BW progamers)). Do I like his casting? Yes. He might not be as charismatic as Day9, but when you hear him cast you just get this feeling that he loves what he does. Even if the information is wrong, that to me trumps minor mistakes (and yes they are minor, people have a tendency to make an ant hill into a mountain). That is easy to do if you are trying to "bash" or find something wrong against anyone. Conclusion, Moletrap is a passionate, play by play caster.
So what is Key to being a good caster? Given the above, which do you consider to be important Key issues:
Poll: What is key in a caster ?
Insight (meta-game) (178)
55%
Charisma (78)
24%
Passion (46)
14%
Insight (into Players) (10)
3%
Play by Play (10)
3%
Additional Content (4)
1%
326 total votes
Your vote: What is key in a caster ?
(Vote): Passion (Vote): Insight (meta-game) (Vote): Insight (into Players) (Vote): Play by Play (Vote): Additional Content (Vote): Charisma
wolf is a great caster, what the fuck are you smoking exactly? this sounds like a wolf hate thread if anything
i'm not a fan of wolf also. dull and casters ending their sentences with a question is extremely annoying.
I'm not too sure about your rating for a lot of the casters. I would group Tasteless separate to Artosis, and I would definitely rate Wolf higher. While Day9 is fantastic for lower league players and his videos are seemingly entertaining; I haven't found them useful for a long, long time. That is, however, my opinion.
There are others that you should list - PainUser (personally dislike along with HD) and Grubby (sign me up as a fan boy )
Honestly, I think it's all in the voice and the way you deliver your speech. Game knowledge is something that people can learn over time so I don't really concern myself with judging a caster by it because in most cases, it's pretty competent. When it comes to any sort of public speaking, what really matters is how you speak. You can spout all the nonsensical bullshit in the world but if you have a voice and a way of speaking that captures attention, then you are a good caster. If you do a lot of "um" and make a lot of awkward statements, then you are bad and it won't matter if you have the most in depth game knowledge in the world.
For me, it's simply to have something interesting to say about the game. However, the standards of game knowledge are quite low for English-language casters. I've recently started listening to Russian casters and it's much more enjoyable.
Being yourself and naturally talking about the game are things some up and coming casters really struggle with. I can't count how many times I hear the same inflection trying to emulate more popular casters, or really similar nerd culture jokes that try to emulate Tastosis or Day[9]. We get it, everyone used to play Pokemon!
I like how day 9,tastless,artosis cast.You cant be a caster without good knolege and like little stuff.Husky can be entirtaning but he lacks quite a bit of knolege.Day 9 is probably the only caster that has game knolege and can analyze perfectly well.Atrosis and tasetless are good for ingame casting.
I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
I want to start by saying that I'm a huge sports fan and a lot of my opinions come from watching copious amounts of sports broadcasts.
I think a lot has to do with the setup of the tournament... Do we have an online solo cast (what 99% of aspiring casters can do)? A two caster table (most major tournaments)? Or a caster table and analysis table/couch (the latest IEM)? Finally... who's the observer?
I love great analysis. I wish there were more shows/content about really discussing games that were played. However, I think you missed the biggest factor for me. I want to know [see] what's happening. When it comes to watching a tournament I'd rather have ONLY a quality observer and NO talking (I don't want to mute b/c I like the game sounds).
After having someone who's capable of showing the game without forgetting to follow an army or at least show that there are drops/dts/run-bys on the way to different bases I want to have someone able to give me quality play-by-play. This is also where I'd factor in the caster's ability to express themselves and communicate as part of this. + Show Spoiler +
in the EU scene we often get some casts by people who are not native English speakers. Many are still very capable but it can be a factor
If I want to mute the stream (for whatever reason) that's a pretty big issue.
Next, I want insight. However, neither of the ones you mentioned. I want casters that know decision making (who's going to win the engagement). "Player A should really pull back now before over extending" or "Player Z needs to just hold a few seconds until [insert tech] is finished" etc.
Everything else is just a plus for me. I don't really think large tournaments are the place to be explaining the meta-game or build orders (unless there's some radical change / cheese going on). I also don't think extra content makes someone a good tournament caster.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasionans where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
Khaldor not only has a lot of insight but also a good attitude towards professionalism. As Artosis stated often on SotG he does always have his iPad with him and looking up stuff about players and statistics.
On September 03 2012 17:17 m!DniGhT wrote: Khaldor not only has a lot of insight but also a good attitude towards professionalism. As Artosis stated often on SotG he does always have his iPad with him and looking up stuff about players and statistics.
But he is also a perfect example of someone who doesn't get the game and berates players for what he thinks is a mistake
On September 03 2012 16:53 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Giant arms and a smooth head.
totes, also wear tight fitting shirts once in a while.
I think a lot of people over emphasize the importance of insight and game knowledge (dont get me wrong, its still vital), imo a big thing that's missing from a lot of caster's they're not being genuine, or embracing their character. Husky has come a long way from being my least favorite caster to one of the ones I look forward to listening to every match because although his insight isn't like that of Artosis/Apollo/etc, his character (along with an increasing insight to the game) makes for a perfect mix of an entertaining and informative cast.
What I think makes a good caster, some of them depend on preferrence (for example what I find funny someone else hates, the voice I likesomeone else hates)
- Voice, a smooth radio voice like Gunrun's voice are a joy to listen to. - Appearance, you have to look presentable and must have the neccesary social skills for casting - Humor, jokes obviously make your cast fun - Game knowledge, at least high masters in skill in one race - Chemistry with your co-caster - Knowledge of the scene (very underrated imo) - Someone who always has something to say, but doesn't starts talking about ''oh he's mining minerals now, how interesting''
I think duo's such as Bitterdam compliment each other nicely, where Rotterdam lacks MrBitter compliments him, and vice versa. And the same can be said for Tastosis.
I'd agree with the idea that Moletrap is much more insightful and passionate about SC2 than Wolf is, which leaves me wondering why he gets so much hate while Wolf and Khaldor don't. Maybe it's his voice? I don't know, but I like the guy. You can tell he tries, but doesn't play the game enough. Probably why Artosis's analytic casting is so interesting; the dude actually plays and can inform the viewers what happens or is likely to happen with the clashing of two opposing builds, etc
I think different people will like different casters. According to OP Wolf is not insightful and moletrap is awesome. Husky and HD is the same group... We all have our different opinions.
It is obvious that the OP is in the tank for Moletrap. Wolf diddnt set Moletrap to fail. The fact is there is one thing that every caster NEEDS to be successful. That is a good VOICE. It doesnt matter how MANY things someone casts, the thing that will bring in more fans, and ultimately GROW ESPORTS is charisma, support of the players, and the level of enjorment a spectator feels when watching the game.
I know Moletrap is dedicated. I know he tries his hardest. Ultimately, if he is not someone a MAJORITY of people want to hear cast, then he should not be casting. There are other roles in ESPORTS that need filling. This is not moletraps role.
EDIT: If you love moletrap and hate wolf, how can you lump husky and HD into the same group?
On September 03 2012 17:25 ROOTT1 wrote: all i want is a knowledgeable caster, he could be driest person on the planet for all i care. HIGH LVL ANALYSIS PLZ!
TT1. Yes, for you perhaps the most high level analysis possible is preferable, but if you want to grow esports then you are going to have to accept what the republican party has begun to realize: we need to grow the middle class.
you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things
wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now, if you say he doesnt know what hes talking then... you dont dont know what you talking, he has very cool insights and i would consider him just below artosis as analytical caster
just to add thats not the first time totalbiscuit helps a progamer, he helped BlinG too
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now,
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
Excellent post! Well we got Grubby casting the OSL now. This will hopefully motivate other casters to up their knowledge of the game (and play the actual game more, it is their job btw).
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
While you identified great points on a lot of the issues we currently have.
No one I ever hear speaking publicly about how "bad" the casting is, EVER gives ways to fix it. The real issue is, as you stated, that casters need to be playing the game as well, BUT HOW, unless they are fulltime they have real jobs, then they cast, then they have family etc.
You always hear people say "high masters still don't know anything" but if a caster is higher than masters, they would be IN the tournament not casting it. Every caster you have stated that you think is good are the full time casters, the ones who cast a few hours a day, and have the ability to practice full time.
it simply IS NOT POSSIBLE to have high game knowledge as a caster if you do not play the game a significant amount of time, without being full time in the industry as a caster only (for example I cast FXO events but i also manage a team, do production, IT, manage other staff etc) how is someone who has a regular job, casts and then has to play as well do it? its just not possible.
I am of the firm belief that if you are a caster for a main organisation you should be casting and then practicing the remaining hours of your work day minimum. For example you cast 3 hours per day? ok you practice the other 5.
Only casters who do that will be up to scratch for the "high game knowledge casters" but at the same time, ANY knowledge that is masters or above, is higher than 97% of the community, so it is also the vocal minority who are always doing the complaining.
On September 03 2012 17:11 AxionSteel wrote: Funny that you stated Wolf knows nothing of the players/current meta game but then said Tasteless does. Couldn't be more wrong.
I couldn't possibly agree more. I'm extremely satisfied with 3 out of 4 current GOM casters.
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now,
I agree with Ret 100%, every starcraft game feels the same with the current casters because they can't actually spot the little things, so it always gets the game reduced to minerals being mined and slugfests, with that said, comparing wolf to moletrap is a HUGE insult, moletrap couldn't even spot a blink obs build ffs, big no no.
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now,
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now,
Oh I read the post wrong! I thought he said best caster, not best player. I couldn't care less as long as they are good casters with good ingame knowledge, hence my assesment of casting skills - not playing skills - who knows (or cares?) as long as they do their job well.
I don't care if you're the most boring person ever. If you know what is going on and can relay to the audience what the players are thinking and plan to do, then you have my respect as a caster. I rather have any pro player commentate a game than some person just shouting at everything that's happening. If you can gather as much game knowledge as a pro player, you'd have my views.
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now,
Oh I read the post wrong! I thought he said best caster, not best player. I couldn't care less as long as they are good casters with good ingame knowledge, hence my assesment of casting skills - not playing skills - who knows (or cares?) as long as they do their job well.
I care a ton, obviously someone's game knowledge has a direct correlation to their league and rank...
I don't particularly like Wolf over other casters, but I don't believe he deserved quite the criticism he received in the OP. That being said, I think StarCraft II casters as a whole criticize players a _LOT_ more than they should. How many times have you heard: "Oh, what is he doing?!," "He is totally falling apart right now!", "That was a huge blunder!", etc. etc. I don't really like how casters focus on the negatives; I feel like they should try harder to find reasons for those mistakes, since most of the competitors are at such a high level that mistakes are usually forced, not just done because hell, they're bad... because they're all extremely good. Even the worst pros are incredibly good; I wish casters would realize that and be a bit more sympathetic.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
While you identified great points on a lot of the issues we currently have.
No one I ever hear speaking publicly about how "bad" the casting is, EVER gives ways to fix it. The real issue is, as you stated, that casters need to be playing the game as well, BUT HOW, unless they are fulltime they have real jobs, then they cast, then they have family etc.
You always hear people say "high masters still don't know anything" but if a caster is higher than masters, they would be IN the tournament not casting it. Every caster you have stated that you think is good are the full time casters, the ones who cast a few hours a day, and have the ability to practice full time.
it simply IS NOT POSSIBLE to have high game knowledge as a caster if you do not play the game a significant amount of time, without being full time in the industry as a caster only (for example I cast FXO events but i also manage a team, do production, IT, manage other staff etc) how is someone who has a regular job, casts and then has to play as well do it? its just not possible.
I am of the firm belief that if you are a caster for a main organisation you should be casting and then practicing the remaining hours of your work day minimum. For example you cast 3 hours per day? ok you practice the other 5.
Only casters who do that will be up to scratch for the "high game knowledge casters" but at the same time, ANY knowledge that is masters or above, is higher than 97% of the community, so it is also the vocal minority who are always doing the complaining.
it would work perfectly for koreans but if theres a caster practicing 5 hours when they cast 3 or 8 when they dont they would probably have more practice and skill than some progamers, it seems too much
i dont know how tastosis dont have time anymore, casting isnt fulltime job for them? if yes, then tasteless would have so much time to do whatever he would probably with his bw knowledge be very good again fast
On September 03 2012 17:44 ROOTT1 wrote: i wonder wats gonna happen once hots comes out : D, poor casters
You are probably one of the few people here who can actually judge a caster's playing skills - you don't have to answer if you don't want to obviously . But how would you rank the current casters in terms of playing skill?
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now,
Oh I read the post wrong! I thought he said best caster, not best player. I couldn't care less as long as they are good casters with good ingame knowledge, hence my assesment of casting skills - not playing skills - who knows (or cares?) as long as they do their job well.
I care a ton, obviously someone's game knowledge has a direct correlation to their league and rank...
We're arguing the same thing, except you think they MUST have high ladder skills, I think as long as they are good at casting then their ladder score pretty much is meaningless. Obviously a bronze caster might not be the best but cmon now, we're not quibbling over that.
While this topic seems to creep up every month or so, I feel like this one is simply a badly masked attempt to complain about Wolf being the reason people don't like Moletrap.
In response to Ret, I really don't see the bad casters as being a detriment per se to the growth of the scene. In time I feel they'll be eventually be phased out as the average spectator's knowledge of the game increases and they increasing start to question some of the things they hear out of the bad casters. From my own experience as solely a spectator and not a player whatsoever, there are definitely some casters I used to have no problem with but now hear plenty of things come out of their mouths that make say to myself "that's not what is going on at all." There currently aren't enough good casters to fill those slots though, so they'll have to occupy them for now until others are able to show they know what they're talking about and know how to talk about it
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
I've been reading your recent dissatisfaction with casters lately and my brain has come up with a solution to the above. I've read elsewhere that players don't really like the disparity in the money Casters earn compared to players, so, in order to balance things out, I propose that players should sell their knowledge of the metagame to casters.
For example, day9 calls ret wanting to know more about the zvp matchup, ret charges x amount and fills in the holes in day9's knowledge. Day9 looks good on camera until the metagame shifts at which point he needs to call up ret to get an update and $$$.
Why would you give hard earned knowledge to someone who clearly intends to profit from it and not charge them seems crazy to me.
On September 03 2012 17:44 ROOTT1 wrote: i wonder wats gonna happen once hots comes out : D, poor casters
You are probably one of the few people here who can actually judge a caster's playing skills - you don't have to answer if you don't want to obviously . But how would you rank the current casters in terms of playing skill?
ive only played against rotterdam and apollo lately and theyre both pretty good
On September 03 2012 17:43 Citherna wrote: I don't particularly like Wolf over other casters, but I don't believe he deserved quite the criticism he received in the OP. That being said, I think StarCraft II casters as a whole criticize players a _LOT_ more than they should. How many times have you heard: "Oh, what is he doing?!," "He is totally falling apart right now!", "That was a huge blunder!", etc. etc. I don't really like how casters focus on the negatives; I feel like they should try harder to find reasons for those mistakes, since most of the competitors are at such a high level that mistakes are usually forced, not just done because hell, they're bad... because they're all extremely good. Even the worst pros are incredibly good; I wish casters would realize that and be a bit more sympathetic.
in starcraft2 people focus too much on mistakes, it becomes even ugly to watch, theres a battle and then "oh hes not doing X" "if he keeps doing X hes gonna lose" instead of focusing what people is doing right
tbh i feel like it happens cause seeing a mistake is just much easier than seeing something good that rarely happens cause they dont really know the difficulty of things
I agree on what ret said even though off topic (but it felt like a wolf hate thread more then anything else), comparing sc2 to old bw and warcraft 3 casts, the people explained almost everything and gave information on the map/players etc. Okay if you are playing the game at a decent level you know about most of it, but you still got something out of it. (and in bw you could cheer for the obs doing a scv all kill at the start of the game)
But this might also be related to sc2 being a bit faster paced and evolving quicker. For me its personally important that a caster is able to fill holes, technical difficulties etc. Always nice to have an awesome replay up your sleeve, or an interesting funny topic, the best ones are the ones that might stretch over multiple occurrences.
Still enjoy casts over watching replays and hots will be funny anyway when it comes to casting.
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
I've been reading your recent dissatisfaction with casters lately and my brain has come up with a solution to the above. I've read elsewhere that players don't really like the disparity in the money Casters earn compared to players, so, in order to balance things out, I propose that players should sell their knowledge of the metagame to casters.
For example, day9 calls ret wanting to know more about the zvp matchup, ret charges x amount and fills in the holes in day9's knowledge. Day9 looks good on camera until the metagame shifts at which point he needs to call up ret to get an update and $$$.
Why would you give hard earned knowledge to someone who clearly intends to profit from it and not charge them seems crazy to me.
a) casters have been getting tips/advices from players since the dawn of time b) the only the way u truly be an excellent caster is by understanding the game by urself, u cant just pay a player to explain you some random aspect of a matchup. doesnt work that way
Have you heard the LoL casters? The way they spew out knowledge and accurately cast exactly what is going on in team fights with specifics is amazing. It just seems like the starcraft community doesn't have these kinds of casters.
casters should prioritize asking everyone to follow @liquidret on twitter imho, its the main and only key to being a good caster, everything else can be ignored.
For me, it only matters that the caster talks about what the players are doing on the screen the viewers are looking at, and not what the players are not doing. For the most part anyway.
- Speak well (articulate/not have an annoying voice/form sentences without too many fillers/know the native language fluently) - Know the mechanics/strategies/meta - Have a basic knowledge of player history tendencies, back story,typical strategy - Know how to build tension and hype up events that're critical to a game - Are not purely biased towards one player, if they are, should keep it funny and not effect his/her casting role - Familiar with what has happened and what is happening with the event - Good chemistry with co-caster, smooth segway transition to commercials/interviews etc - Not being one dimensional in their casting - Have some history in gaming - Know their own volumes (especially when shouting/hyping)
On September 03 2012 17:56 Woizit wrote: For me, it only matters that the caster talks about what the players are doing on the screen the viewers are looking at, and not what the players are not doing. For the most part anyway.
That's exactly what most casters do though,and it makes it fairly bland.
"He made marauders" "He's moving out with the marauders" "He's hitting the front of his opponents base with marauders. Can the Protoss hold this?!" "Beautiful forcefields! He held the attack!"
Not interesting to me in the slightest. I'm curious what triggered the T to attack, why he went with a certain composition, if the protoss was aware of the attack coming....
you're summary of each caster is very biased and may i say 'unfair', as this thread is directed to ask the question 'What is key to being a Good Caster'. i disagree on some of your assessments on casters but then again i'm also biased.
the poll -play by play -metagame -passion -charisma
is extremely vague and doesn't outline everything, especially when you have to specifically vote for the most preferable.
for example (EXAMPLES ONLY, once again stating that these are all personal opinions) these issues aren't addressed: with khaldor, some people dislike his accent, or likes his lolwhat joke moments. or wolf, he is either trolling us about hairstyles or he has a fetish which does not need to be shared or day9, try to convince viewers about certain things that are wrong as if we don't recognise his mistakes or tasteless "greetings from seoul korea..." or apollo being extremely zerg biased or simply i don't like his voice.
On September 03 2012 17:56 Woizit wrote: For me, it only matters that the caster talks about what the players are doing on the screen the viewers are looking at, and not what the players are not doing. For the most part anyway.
That's exactly what most casters do though,and it makes it fairly bland.
"He made marauders" "He's moving out with the marauders" "He's hitting the front of his opponents base with marauders. Can the Protoss hold this?!" "Beautiful forcefields! He held the attack!"
Not interesting to me in the slightest. I'm curious what triggered the T to attack, why he went with a certain composition, if the protoss was aware of the attack coming....
100% agreed, this is why I like Artosis very much, I find he's generally quite insightful.
It's honestly ridiculous how poor most caster's knowledge of the game is. If being a caster is your job, put in the fucking hours. I find it very hard to believe that many of the casters bother to put in close to enough time to be considered working full time.
I'd take the likes of Idra at his most monotone over any of these play by play casters that get "excited" but can say nothing but what any Gold league player notices themselves anyway. Sadly, I don't think we're going to see truly exceptional casting until some good pros retire and decide to actively keep up their knowledge by playing a lot that we'll see a big increase in quality of casting.
Sometimes you just end up with a caster who has week game knowledge. I think in this case, they don't need to stick to pure play by play. I appreciate casters who enlighten us about the background of particular players, some lesser known facts of tidbits, bring the audience up to speed on tournament results and storylines, and talk about the context of a particular game with respect to how the results will effect the other players.
I feel that there is a lot of ground left uncovered by casters who stick strictly to play by play.
On September 03 2012 17:56 Woizit wrote: For me, it only matters that the caster talks about what the players are doing on the screen the viewers are looking at, and not what the players are not doing. For the most part anyway.
That's exactly what most casters do though,and it makes it fairly bland.
"He made marauders" "He's moving out with the marauders" "He's hitting the front of his opponents base with marauders. Can the Protoss hold this?!" "Beautiful forcefields! He held the attack!"
Not interesting to me in the slightest. I'm curious what triggered the T to attack, why he went with a certain composition, if the protoss was aware of the attack coming....
I've got a problem with "He made marauders", no so much with "He's making marauders". Basically, lots of play-by-play keeps swinging back to what has already happened, trying to justify what is happening when that is not the point of play-by-play.
Stating he's moving out with marauders or hitting the front of his opponent's base with marauders is fine by me, I don't see anything wrong with stating the facts, but I think a lot of casters actually fail on something as basic as that believe it or not. How many times did it end up with "Is he going to attack? Uhh... yes... no..?" Instead of simply "He's setting up the attack" or "He's waiting".
Point is, casting can be made a lot simpler and yet more entertaining. Listening to Tobi-wan scream "Enigma!!!" in Dota2 is enough to describe an entire battle with all the hype, yet SC2 fans just want mroe and more analysis on every single thing.
On the same note, BW guys seem to remember the "stormuu" and "reaver, reaver, reaver, reaver" casting more than anything else (other than fangirls of course).
Three of my main gripes about casters nowadays are --
1 - The constant screams of "OHHHHHH" whenever something remotely interesting happens. It's mind numbingly horrible. The most recent example I can think of was at IEM Gamescom. Both Day9 and Kaelaris would scream "OHHHHHH" multiple times each match.
2 - "He did this!" "He did that!". A lot of casters seem to just describe what is happening on the screen without even stating the name of the player or why they're doing it. I've noticed DJWheat do this more than most casters, but the majority of them do this. It's quite frustrating when, during a ZvP for example, the caster will say something along the lines of "He's moving out with Roaches and he's expanding behind it and.. Oh look! He uses forcefields to trap the roaches!".
3 - Poor calls and overall poor game knowledge. "<Player A> has the decisive lead and the better positioning here.. If <Player B> attacks, he will surely fall behind.. But.. OHHHH.. An amazing attack has meant that <Player B> has somehow taken the lead". It happens all the time. Casters will say one thing and, half the time, the complete opposite thing happens. It's hard to believe anything they say when they make so many poor calls due to their lack of game knowledge.
To me, game knowledge is the most important. I don't see the point of commentating a game if you don't know it to the max. It's so awesome to occasionaly have progamers casting games. They're like "This player probably gonna put down his spire in the next 3 seconds"..And bam, Spire morphing indeed?
I'm glad tournaments invite progamers to cast with normals casters. You get the insight of a progamer, AND the hyped-voice of the caster. Combo.
That description of something happening on the screen might be a remnant from the good old days, when people castet via online radio and people couldn't see for themselves what was going on.
Either be really good at one thing and not terrible at anything, or be at least pretty good across the board. Wolf and Khaldor may not be perfect, but when I've listened to them, they've consistently been good, show some enthusiasm and have fun together casting. This kind of seems like a thread you made to bash on Wolf.
On September 03 2012 17:56 Woizit wrote: For me, it only matters that the caster talks about what the players are doing on the screen the viewers are looking at, and not what the players are not doing. For the most part anyway.
That's exactly what most casters do though,and it makes it fairly bland.
"He made marauders" "He's moving out with the marauders" "He's hitting the front of his opponents base with marauders. Can the Protoss hold this?!" "Beautiful forcefields! He held the attack!"
Not interesting to me in the slightest. I'm curious what triggered the T to attack, why he went with a certain composition, if the protoss was aware of the attack coming....
That's a pretty good example of POOR play-by-play casting. Which is exactly why it's such an important thing to me. Good play by play would be a little more like this: "He's going for early concussive shell and maruaders. This is a great way to neutralize stalker speed and kite zealots" "The mauraders are moving out just before concussive shells is done, it should finish just as he gets to the protoss ramp." "The terran player catches one stalker out of position but the protoss player now knows the push is coming and immediately warps in a sentry - all he has to do is FF the ramp and he'll be able to hold" "Perfect FF. He's able to pick off the maurader and the terran player retreats his marines before the stalkers will be able to follow down the ramp"
Again, it's like (what I think is the most important thing) observing. You may not really think about it much when it's good, but when it's bad it completely ruins the experience.
- Insight into the game and giving insight on what may happen next (Artosis&dApollo) - Someone who doesn't do play-by-play casting (DJWheat&Totalbiscuit) - Someone who knows when to give proper amount of excitement (Artosis is OK - Day9 is not OK) - Someone who doesn't rely on the other caster for actual&useful information (Tasteless does this all the time) - Someone who has natural and "fun" charisma without taking too much away from the game and staying on topic - Someone who thinks the game is about to end when it doesn't ~ "OH THIS SHOULD BE GG FROM PLAYER X" but it never happens (Wolf&Khaldor are a major victim of this)
That's pretty much all of it. It sounds like an extensive list but eh oh well.
I feel like no matter what caster it is, even if they are reasonably good at analysis, they can start to feel infallible in calling things when they get a lot of praise, even casters like apollo and artosis every so often can make miss calls and then try to stand by it because of their own ego.
That's why I feel like the most important thing as a caster is being humble in your casts, never come across as if you know better than the player, its so irritating listening to a caster who is talking so authoritatively but is completely wrong.
I'd say rotterdam is the least guilty of this because of he has competitive exp of the highest level and understands how intricate a competitive game can be, so he almost never presumes he knows best.
For me personally the most important thing is game knowledge. It's simply a MUST, nothing more to say. Second place is for fluency in English and proper enunciation. If the caster does not have a good grasp of the language, i start to get annoyed and eventually mute or stop the stream. Third place is for sense of humor - being able to exchange good jokes with a co-caster or to come up with funny things to say when solo-casting makes the cast fresh and entertaining.
Honestly, i don't care much about passion. It is very, very difficult to have the right amount of passion. I often feel like casters are overdoing it - for example, Wolf and Khaldor become unbearable for me to listen to when they start drooling and screaming. They practically ruined WCS Korea for me. I don't mean to offend them, i respect them for the time and effort they are putting into the game, but i just cannot stand their excitement, their voices become too screechy. Another example is McDuffs from Imba.tv - when he jumps on the hype wagon at the start of a game, it's already over for me.
So, i'd say that right now the perfect caster for my taste is Grubby.
The OP strikes me as seriously biased, especially in regards to Wolf. But the comments about the general standard of casting being pretty low is somewhat valid.
I think passion is the most important, but it doesn't mean you have to scream like a moletrap. You just have to love the game and influence the viewers when you broadcast. Artosis doesn't really scream all that much, but you can tell he loves the game. *Although he voice completely broke when MVP's BC fleet got vortex-ed.
I think being un-bias is quite important as a caster. I used to like HD's cast but in the last couple casts I saw it was pretty bias against Terran so it is just not as enjoyable to watch.
Game knowledge is a plus but I don't think it is a requirement. I quite enjoy Husky's casting even his knowledge is not on par with Artosis. It is good to have different types of casters. When you want analytical casts, you can tune in to Day9 or ArtosisTv stuff where it is pure analysis. Or you can just have a laugh and casual casting with Husky etc etc...
EDIT: To OP, Wolf actually have pretty good insight of the game, I watch GSL most of the time, don't know why you would think that...
I would say it depends on the viewer, but I'm going to say that most important part of being a good caster is play-by-play and personality (don't come off as a prick).
If I were to watch a baseball game, the play-by-play man is going to have the most important role. As someone who plays amateur baseball and has coached and instructed people through various levels, I'll also be able to relate to the announcer who has more intimate knowledge of what's going on - or, the game within the game.
Same for football, except I don't know as much about football, I would not be able to explain to you the difference between a nickel defense and dime defense, I know a 3-4 plays with 3 down linemen instead of 4 (with a 4-3), and I know what zone and man-to-man coverages are. That being said, I'm going to relate more with the play-by-play, and have to take what the more in-depth person has to say at face value, whether he's wrong or not, I'm not good enough to judge.
That being said, if you close your eyes (or listen on the radio), if the play-by-play man is lacking, it just ruins it.
Same can be said for SC2 in my opinion. And so I answer the question as to what is the key to being a good caster? They have to have a solid play-by-play man.
For me the most important aspect is insight in the game. Being able to read incoming plays, pointing out not to obvious weaknesses etc. But also simpler thing like minimap awareness, sporadic drone counts etc. Not that huge follower of any caster so afraid can't give examples but i can get really annoyed by blatant wrong reads or over enthusiastic casting. I do think there is balance to befound, I am watching games part to enjoy them and part to learn from them. Therefore i believe a caster should have a mix of insight, charisma/passion and humor.
Quick question: if not producing independant content for the community is a criterion of exclusion for Wolf, why is Tasteless considered a community guy in your opinion?
To be honest, I feel like we lack play by play. The only reason Husky and TB are worth anything as casters is that they are loud and frantic... Something I miss dearly from SC:BW casters. We don't have enough play by play casters who know themselves well enough to stick with what they SHOULD be doing.
Most new casters gravitate towards their most successful examples, but the most successful casters are high masters/GM level players... ergo, they end up doing some kind of terribly thoughtless "analytical" style when the know nothing of the game. Even worse is when casters with serious game knowledge end up being forced into the role of play by play because of other "circumstances". :/
Wait! where's Maximus Black and Novawar in this conversation? They may not have the breadth and width of knowledge that the others have but they make up for it in pure charisma.
On September 03 2012 19:35 Ero-Sennin wrote: I would say it depends on the viewer, but I'm going to say that most important part of being a good caster is play-by-play and personality (don't come off as a prick).
If I were to watch a baseball game, the play-by-play man is going to have the most important role. As someone who plays amateur baseball and has coached and instructed people through various levels, I'll also be able to relate to the announcer who has more intimate knowledge of what's going on - or, the game within the game.
Same for football, except I don't know as much about football, I would not be able to explain to you the difference between a nickel defense and dime defense, I know a 3-4 plays with 3 down linemen instead of 4 (with a 4-3), and I know what zone and man-to-man coverages are. That being said, I'm going to relate more with the play-by-play, and have to take what the more in-depth person has to say at face value, whether he's wrong or not, I'm not good enough to judge.
That being said, if you close your eyes (or listen on the radio), if the play-by-play man is lacking, it just ruins it.
Same can be said for SC2 in my opinion. And so I answer the question as to what is the key to being a good caster? They have to have a solid play-by-play man.
That has absolutely no relevance to watching SC2 matches.
On September 03 2012 19:35 Ero-Sennin wrote: I would say it depends on the viewer, but I'm going to say that most important part of being a good caster is play-by-play and personality (don't come off as a prick).
If I were to watch a baseball game, the play-by-play man is going to have the most important role. As someone who plays amateur baseball and has coached and instructed people through various levels, I'll also be able to relate to the announcer who has more intimate knowledge of what's going on - or, the game within the game.
Same for football, except I don't know as much about football, I would not be able to explain to you the difference between a nickel defense and dime defense, I know a 3-4 plays with 3 down linemen instead of 4 (with a 4-3), and I know what zone and man-to-man coverages are. That being said, I'm going to relate more with the play-by-play, and have to take what the more in-depth person has to say at face value, whether he's wrong or not, I'm not good enough to judge.
That being said, if you close your eyes (or listen on the radio), if the play-by-play man is lacking, it just ruins it.
Same can be said for SC2 in my opinion. And so I answer the question as to what is the key to being a good caster? They have to have a solid play-by-play man.
That has absolutely no relevance to watching SC2 matches.
why not? I think it's spot on. (Not trying to take away from how important or enjoyable good analysis is, but bad play-by-play drives a cast into the ground.)
I think the main issue here is the community has completely unrealistic expectations of how much the casters should know. The only reason casters of football (soccer) for example seem to know more about the players than you probably do is they have a massive production team feeding that information.
The casting for SC2 isn't perfect, but the English casting of eSports never has been. You either have as Unstable rightly said casters who have full time jobs outside of casting and also those who cast full time for various tournaments. If they had enough time to be great at the game, they'd probably prefer to actually participate in the tournament themselves.
One thing I've noticed recently is especially among the English casters, there's never any excitement. It's always so stale to listen to and the commentators like Tasteless who are supposed to create excitement just don't. Husky, Day9 and Khaldor (as some examples) really manage to get people hyped for what's going on, even Moletrap does it. Some however make it seem like they're reading from an autoqueue.
The other issue I have is a lot of the time it really feels that casters are ignoring what the observer is showing them. Countless times at the GSL I've seen Legend? Observing really well and because neither of the two casters are looking at the preview screen that we see, they just plain ignore what's going on and talk about something else that's happening when the important thing is being shown by the obs.
Was watching TI2 yesterday and TobiWan was pure gold of a caster, and that's what i want to see from sc2 casters, raising the hype, and having good analytical abilities.
On September 03 2012 19:56 Qikz wrote: I think the main issue here is the community has completely unrealistic expectations of how much the casters should know. The only reason casters of football (soccer) for example seem to know more about the players than you probably do is they have a massive production team feeding that information.
The casting for SC2 isn't perfect, but the English casting of eSports never has been. You either have as Unstable rightly said casters who have full time jobs outside of casting and also those who cast full time for various tournaments. If they had enough time to be great at the game, they'd probably prefer to actually participate in the tournament themselves.
One thing I've noticed recently is especially among the English casters, there's never any excitement. It's always so stale to listen to and the commentators like Tasteless who are supposed to create excitement just don't. Husky, Day9 and Khaldor (as some examples) really manage to get people hyped for what's going on, even Moletrap does it. Some however make it seem like they're reading from an autoqueue.
The other issue I have is a lot of the time it really feels that casters are ignoring what the observer is showing them. Countless times at the GSL I've seen Legend? Observing really well and because neither of the two casters are looking at the preview screen that we see, they just plain ignore what's going on and talk about something else that's happening when the important thing is being shown by the obs.
I actually feel that Tasteless does a decent job, he just pales in comparison to Artosis's eloquence, which comes off especially cool when Artosis goes crazy and brings out his enlightening analysis along with what is happening. But not everybody can do that, and Tasteless does still go "Oh" and "Whoa" at most of the right moments.
On September 03 2012 19:56 Silencioseu wrote: Was watching TI2 yesterday and TobiWan was pure gold of a caster, and that's what i want to see from sc2 casters, raising the hype, and having good analytical abilities.
I guess this is clearly a matter of opinion because I personally can't stand listening to Tobi for more than 10 seconds. I used to like his casts, way in the past, but now I simply can't stand his... thing.
I feel that the criteria in OP are not criteria, but only OP's opinion about random casters.
I'm not saying I'd have done a better job at defining criteria, nor that it is an interesting subject either.
My top 5 would be Day[9], Artosis of old, Doa, BreakyCPK, Chill.
I dislike Bitterman, Moletrap, Tasteless, Appolo and can't stand the currently screaming Tobi.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
Its really way more fun listening to progamers casting.
On September 03 2012 17:35 Akhee wrote: you shouldnt criticize too much if you are missing most of the things
wolf is probably the best player of the casters right now, if you say he doesnt know what hes talking then... you dont dont know what you talking, he has very cool insights and i would consider him just below artosis as analytical caster
just to add thats not the first time totalbiscuit helps a progamer, he helped BlinG too
Rotterdam is the best player of all the casters by far...
I would say that Apollo, Rotterdam and Artosis are the best caster right now
I thought it'd be nice just to bring it up again, with my two cents as to why: casters are currently focusing/talking too much on mistakes that a player makes (cuz its the easier bit) and aren't focusing enough on the finer aspects of someone's play/build (which takes actual in-depth knowledge of the game). Learning about the finer details of X player's build makes for a very informative cast rather than just "Oh why did he move those Marauders there? That was bad". Just feels like something thats missing nowadays. Granted, some builds just wont make sense at first glance, and top players dont just go revealing the inner workings of their builds too often.
On the side topic of caster (not) playing the game: I dont think the main thing is playing or not, its more about having genuine interest. If you have geniune interest you'll be watching most/all major tournies, you will see what new strat develop, you'll see changes in the metagame, you will hear others commentate and pick up stuff they say in their analysis. Also you get knowledge of playstyles different players use. You'll also likely be actually "thinking" about the game. Theorizing whats good, whats bad, what drawbacks/advantages different strategies have. And since you're watching a ton of SC2 you'll constantly be able to check back on your previous theories and determine whether they were right or wrong.
To me, it seems that the casters kinda falling off peoples radar (Tasteless seems to be the most mentioned example, to a lesser extent maybe Artosis and Day9) just arent really that interested. I mean, you can tell that Apollo lives and breathes SC2, while Tasteless publicly doesnt play and doesnt read forums. And its quite obvious that he doesnt keep up at all what happens in EU/NA, or even in Code A.
While on the other hand look at someone like Grubby. Granted its his job, but hes obviously very interested in the game and keeps up with everything happening in the metagame etc.
So yea, genuine interest in the game > just playing for the sake of playing. If a caster just commentates because its an income and not because of genuine interest, he will most likely start to lose ground compared to other casters.
Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D
This is a wolf-hate and moletrap-love thread, which is non-sense. A caster should be in master at the very least and that's the case for wolf, but not for moletrap.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
+1, casters should try to play as much as progamers IMO
I probably like the charisma and not beeing fake the most. My favourites are Apollo, Kaelaris, Khaldor (love their solo's aswell)) and many players: especially Grubby, Ret(also Pandii was awesome!) Hasu, for example. I dont like the most famous casters at all I really feel they're overdoing it most of the time and is not pleasant to listen at all.
Charisma and passion. Then good analysis and understanding.
If I want a dry learning experience about ingame specifics or someone's opinion on a build I'll go talk to clanmates or play ladder. The point of a cast is to just narrate the story. I don't care how insightful you are if you narrate poorly and prioritise dry analysis over play-by-play of ingame battles
On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D
I agree. There are so many people saying "Caster needs to know everything and be better than MKP&DRG&MC combined" but at the same time say they love to listen to the korean casters eventhough they don't understand a single word that isn't PLAGUUUUUUUU...
On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D
I'd be very surprised if what you refer to as "most of us" are more than 10% of the people reading this. 1-2% sounds more likely to me.
On September 03 2012 20:22 PiGStarcraft wrote: Charisma and passion. Then good analysis and understanding.
If I want a dry learning experience about ingame specifics or someone's opinion on a build I'll go talk to clanmates or play ladder. The point of a cast is to just narrate the story. I don't care how insightful you are if you narrate poorly and prioritise dry analysis over play-by-play of ingame battles
I fully agree! I do think there is a lot of opportunity to have a show/cast with the aim being analysis (similar to watching sports news shows where they'll discuss strengths and weaknesses of teams or strategies).
For watching a game, I want to see and hear what's going on. I want some energy from the caster to mirror some of the anxiety that I would feel if I was playing in a similar situation (baiting armies back and forth or hoping my nuke lands).
There's also often down time in the games, and having good analysis or entertaining stories/banter is fine as long as it doesn't take away from what IS happening in the game. (Someone else talked about casters not actually watching everything the observer is showing and actually distracting from the action.)
On September 03 2012 19:56 Silencioseu wrote: Was watching TI2 yesterday and TobiWan was pure gold of a caster, and that's what i want to see from sc2 casters, raising the hype, and having good analytical abilities.
You nailed it. The starcraft community needs someone that's equally passionate like tobiwan. I haven't found a single caster that makes me so excited to watch a match. But the again dota is maybe abit more packed with action then sc2 is.
For example Artosis has his own analytical style, outlining different possibilities for the players combined with deep knowledge and strengths and weaknesses of the popular builds in the current metagame. When I first saw Warpprism Immortal in PvP in the GSL Artosis already knew it from ladder and could explain the build, what it's trying to achieve and its weaknesses. It just blew my mind. Apart from that Artosis is entertaining and funny and genuinely into the game. I still think he is the perfect caster.
Husky is obviously way different. He doesn't really analyze at all, but he constantly finds ways to genuinely be funny. He actually seems to want to entertain the audience, but doesn't need to rely on old used jokes, because he is creative enough to be funny himself. Even if his cast get stale and boring, he is still as good as the people I consider 'generic' casters. But listening to him, there is always the chance that his next sentence could be really funny or at least somehow brain-stimulating.
And then there is generic casters like CatsPyjamas, Doa, Moletrap, Khaldor, DJWheat, HD etc. They just use empty phrase after phrase and tell me obvious stuff like "He is building 6 Marines at a time. Now let's look at our Zerg player. He is going double evo chamber, getting the blabla upgrades." They don't have a thing. They are neither funny nor analytical enough to keep me constantly interested in what they say. They usually don't even have a special "atmosphere" about them like Bitterdam whose casts are kind of like chilling with friends. They don't have any thing, so they don't add anything to the game.
On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D
I agree. There are so many people saying "Caster needs to know everything and be better than MKP&DRG&MC combined" but at the same time say they love to listen to the korean casters eventhough they don't understand a single word that isn't PLAGUUUUUUUU...
It's a minority who watched korean BW vods today, SC2 exploded in terms of population, I do not whatsoever like to listen to korean casts because its just random words being yelled at me.
Let me bring in an example, A Sitcom, thats entertaining, my favorite of all of them is Scrubs.
Why Scrubs you say? because they don't have fake laughter, I laugh when I think its funny, and I don't need their help to know when something is funny.
The same can be said with casters, some just scream and its awful, especially when it's something that is not worth getting excited over.
Extremely weird intonation seems to be number 1 on the list of things a caster needs to have. Also talking like there are amazing things happening when absolutely nothing is happening. I find my self muting streams more often than not, recently.
I think you are underestimating game knowledge of wolf and khaldor.
TB doesn't have a clue about starcraft.
It's been widely recognized that tasteless is losing his passion lately althrough he is still the most charismatic caster by far.
Day9 has a lot of BW game knowledge but some things he says during sc2 casts are pretty cringe, he has way to much false predictions and he goes mad about little moves that give you 20 mineral advantage, but make you use 150 actions (which could be used better for sure). He is still entertaining tho and i love him.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters.
Great wording and I don't think this is exaggerated at all. It's funny how SC2 as a strategy game gives less strategic insights in a cast compared to all other games. I find it strange how some tournaments still don't realize how much better a cast with a pro player (or something similar) is. There is also the attitude in America to "make it like ESPN" which, in my opinion, is something not to pursuit in esports. Maybe the numbers tell a different story, I don't know. But when I watch and listen to the Homestory Cup, it's like watching a completely different, more interesting game.
To be fair, it is pretty hard for analytical casters to make a breakthrough, especially as you rely much on "cred" from the community. But as a rule of thumb, any caster that aims to be only a caster from the get go often goes into casting for the wrong reasons and should not cast.
Regarding the suggestion from viewers to casters on what to improve to make them better:
It's almost impossible for a caster to be better for everybody. Some will suggest to improve their game knowledge others to color their casting more, others want more passion and screaming and so on. You can't please them all. I saw several posts asking casters to play more and be in touch with the latest changes to meta game, to be able to recognize things that are going to happen before they even happen. However for me at least that has very little importance (or so i think, maybe i change my opinion when that casting becomes standard).
I'm not interested in the highly technical stuff, i just want entertainment. For me a caster has to be highly passionate, needs a good voice and a great deal of charisma to go with it. For example TB while for some it's not a "top tier" caster for me he's very enjoyable.
Hell, i don't know any korean but i used to watch broodwar on the korean stream instead the english alternatives just to feel the passion that NO foreign caster has. And not only they have the passion in their voice, they make insane crazy sounds to amplify the hot moments in a game and give you a quick shot of adrenaline, but they also have great game knowledge to go with it if you watch a few translated bw games.
For me, the perfect casting team is the old MSL trio. I never knew what they said but damn they got me pumped.
The most anoying thing at any caster - monotonous voice in the exciting parts of the game. To give you a quick recent example - at the end of MOW tournament when Nerchio wins the caster is like "So yeah i think this is it right ? Was it a bo5 no ? " Are you kidding me ? You have to scream your lungs out in those moments. It left me with such a bad taste :s
I like when people offer context and background to events in game; this accentuates vocal excitement offered in play-by-play. I watch to learn about the game, so I usually don't listen to the cast unless there is someone offering me a new perspective or insight. I have been casting some events casually, and the majority of my feedback pertains to not sounding excited during the entire game: I don't like to fake emotion so I just grab the whiskey :D
I think being a good communicator is key followed up by passion and game knowledge. I also dislike when I hear casters talking negatively about players' mistakes (unless they are very obvious). You never know what is going on in players' heads and why they do what they do when they do it. Maybe they are smarter than the casters and saw something in the game they adjusted to or maybe it was a failed adjustment. I always give players the benefit of the doubt because most of the time they are better players than the caster calling them out.
Passion and speaking in a language you don't fully understand are the key things for me. Watching a match should be like reading a great story that is slowly unraveling before the eyes and every small thing like a kill of a scout, burrow when a mineral line is being raided or an extra hit received while some unit is on retreat should be hyped. If you can read between the lines and see the thoughts of the actors and their future actions, than there is that awesome and rewarding feeling of knowing something without it being explicitly mentioned. When you don't see this, you can still follow the story without it being spoiled by calling it a "GG in a few moments" or proclaiming the next move of actors before they can even act.
The match analysis for sure have a its place during the broadcast, but it should be restricted to post-match only. During the game, the viewer can be given some hints, but never the whole plot. That would be like calling a butler the murderer by a narrator in a detective story, before you are even given enough hints to conclude that.
In other words: caster isn't the narrator, that would be the game-observer. Caster is the atmosphere of the story and maybe a post-match story interpreter.
This is a really hard question to answer as different viewers want different things.
For a viewer that doesn't understand the game Enthusiasm, humour and "confidence" (i.e. speaking clearly, not fumbling on your words, filling dead time etc) are probably the most important. If the caster is talking complete shit because they don't understand what is going on, the viewer that doesn't understand the game either won't know the difference.
Currently, there aren't many casters that can educate the uneducated viewer because they themselves do not understand the game or what the players are doing. I hope this changes soon because for someone wanting to get into (or get more into) the pro-scene and understanding the game it's a "wow" moment when you start to appreciate the depth and complexity that is happening in the game. This is really the hook for many people and you appreciate it so much more if you actually play te game.
For a viewer that does understand the game Game knowledge. This means understanding what is happening in the game. Tell us, what the important timings are with these builds? Is the player taking a big risk based upon the information he has? What styles is this player known for? What is the current metagame on this map, or in this match up? Why did he commit to that engagement? etc etc
Basically every caster in the scene at the moment is garbage when it comes to game knowledge. They actually do not understand what is happening at all and it very evident in their casting. The simply read out the production and unit tabs and literally state what is happening without adding any value for the viewer. Being a "play-by-play" or "colour" caster is a license to be an idiot unfortunately.
The only casters that come to mind that have a clue at all are Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam (although they are much better at Zerg and Protoss match ups).
Enthusiasm, humor and confidence are of course still important but intelligence is to be valued more.
For me personally I only listen to Artosis, Apollo, Bitterdam and pro-players. If other casters are commentating I put some music on or listen to the Korean commentary when available. I love it when Incontrol, IdrA, Grubby or TLO commentate and I hope they do more of it. I know there other players that commentate but these are the four that I remember from relatively recent events.
They add so much value as commentators it is unbelievable, they actually understand what is going on and can comment intelligently about the game and explain why and what the players are doing. It is a real treat and I wish we had more of it.
Knowledge and enthusiasm are very much key to being a good caster. Gotta make people want to listen to your voice and what you have to say. Most casters I just tune out b/c they are so monotone or just do not really know what they are talking about. Makes the match more fun when the caster is really getting into the game and can convey that to his viewers as well.
My favorite casters at the moment include Apollo, Mr. Bitter, Rotterdam, Kaelaris and Khaldor. What I like most is that they are up to date with the current metagame and clearly cast enough to be able to identify what's going on even if they don't have knowledge of a pro player(which isn't needed anyway. There is no need(or time) for deep analysis during the game, afterwards when analysing a replay though, sure). So I much prefer to be told what's going on within the game instead of what my eyes can see.
Obviously I still enjoy mr. excitement as much as the next guy, and even more so when they're paired with the right co-caster. It's supposed to be entertainment after all, so having them call the battles as well as some back and forth funny banter and stuff is always fun and what I think a cast is supposed to be.
Also it's a treat when we get to hear the thoughts and analysis of a pro player in a cast. This is why I really enjoy Homestory Cup. I think it's really special when we have insight in a cast from the likes of IdrA, Grubby, TLO, HasuObs and more.
I really like that HomeStory approach, some of the best games to watch are when 1-2 pros are "casting" but not really casting but more like talking about what's going on and how they would handle the situation and what happened when they last played against a certain build. I don't like the excitement many casters try to force but when it's just players it's much more relaxed, informative and enjoyable.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
This is exactly why I like actual pro gamers as casters (like at HSC). They just look at the game and talk about it, to each other. They don't try to be extra entertaining, the game itself is entertaining enough. For me, as a diamond player, who don't know all those small meta game shifts in the pro scene, those insights are very important for me. I cannot see all those small games-in-the-game by myself.
On September 03 2012 20:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Most of us watched a shitton of korean BW vods without understanding anything.
No idea why suddenly everyone demands so much insight from the casters. If you are in a position to spot caster mistakes you probably can analyze the game yourself and understand what is going on and just enjoy the casters passion and excitement. Maybe it would be better to still watch it in a language you don't speak so you don't notice any mistakes :D
Of course a caster who brings the passion and deep understanding would be the best but compared to just 3 years ago we are really spoiled now :D
I'd be very surprised if what you refer to as "most of us" are more than 10% of the people reading this. 1-2% sounds more likely to me.
Doesn't matter, when you are BW hipster you count yourself about 100 times more than anyone else.
I don't get why you dismissed DJ Wheat and TB as "new to SC2".
The game's only been around since 2010, it's not like there are any real seasoned vets. Certainly DJ Wheat has been in eSports since forever and was at the fore of the US SC2 scene from the beginning.
Also you totally ignored other big casters - Apollo, Kaelaris, Crota, Force, Samsc2, Axeltoss etc.
I dont know why kahldor and Doa are getting lumped in with the nooby casters like Husky, Catspajamas. Those guys work their asses off. Doa puts so much effort in and doesnt get any credit for it, if I were him it would be depressing.
You mostly sound like you are just a fanboy of moletrap, and you are frustrated about the fact that he is getting some critique lately. Which is fine to be honest, for me personally apollo does the job better than anyone else and thats just how it goes. A lot of people probably doesn't agree with that. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, It doesn't mean that they are wrong, we just have different perspectives.
But what It seems to me that you are doing is that your trying to spread your perspective as the 'correct' one and try to generalize our opinions, which for the record can not and should not be done.
I get the most entertainment from Analyst-type casters, even when there is two of them combined (ie: Apollo & Artosis casting TSL4 Semis was awesome). However play by play casters can be good under a few conditions.
1) They ask questions to their co-caster. I love it when they do this because not only are the learning themselves, but they are usually asking the same questions which many spectators may be wondering. For example: "Artosis, what do you think Mana is going to do with this build he is doing?"
2) They apologize if they make incorrect decisions. Nothing looks worse than a caster making a call, and the game swings the complete opposite direction. A small apology and recognition of one's mistakes goes a long way.
3) No pre-emptive GG's. This is so anti-climatic it just ruins the game for spectators. Sure there are plenty of situations when the spectators know when its pretty much over, but there are plenty of other things they can say which make it less dull, as well as more climatic if somehow a comeback is made. For example: "Wolf, Nestea is in a really rough position, what can he do to swing back into this game?"
4) Don't refer to players according to their race. The players have aliases and this separates them from everyone else who plays the same race. It sounds horrible when they say something like "The Terran does not have siege upgrade".
5) Lastly the casters need to act like friends, not co-workers. We love it when they occasionally poke fun at each other and make us laugh This creates a sense of synergy and charm to the cast, ultimately making it a lot more enjoyable to watch. This is why Tastosis is so popular, and the fact that they actually are best friends IRL (according to Tastosis interview with JP), is probably a huge factor.
Yeah, I think insight is definitely something that a lot of the caters are lacking. For me personally, Day[9], Tastosis, and Apollo are the most pleasant to watch. They have the charisma, the passion and the play by play, but that is almost negligible because pretty much any semi-decent caster has these characteristics. What makes them stand out is their knowledge of the game.
IMO, an intelligent person explaining why a certain build is good and what a player's options are gets me excited way more about a match that any kind of play-by-play. I can see the fucking supply tab and I see the armies on the screen and I don't need someone telling me that, "oooh, player A is building roaches!! omg!!" It's good to hype up a battle, but it's the analysis, the insight, the explanations and the predictions that make me appreciate the cast and really get pleasure out of spectating.
EDIT: However, sometimes when I am tired, I'll watch a Husky cast. It lacks analysis for me and I don't enjoy it as much as a Tastosis but Husky is a decent enough guy that he makes it fairly enjoyable. In the end, I am mostly focusing on the players, on what is going on-screen and Husky just breaks the silence, and creates a decent atmosphere.
I've come to the bleak realization that most casters will tell me something that I already knew or won't even get there! You don't even have to be really that good to have insight into the game. If you've been playing since beta and you copied pro builds regularly then you have more insight than most casters. Because you have a certain build with certain timings, and there are subtle things going on that you would never even realize unless you tried to execute it correctly against other players. In fact a pattern I've noticed is most casters can't even DETECT slight variations in the opening; they think it's the same ol same ol. And many players have their own little twist on openings at any given time that you just need to use in order to get a feel for what they're trying to do i.e. Nerchio used to pull out an evo block and squeeze out 6 lings at the start in zvp. I noticed that APOLLO is one of the only casters who actually does this. You know he's at least tried a certain build that the player is doing.
I've given up on analytic casters. The best play by play casters are totalbiscuit and Husky (Who are necessary imo to hype up the crowd because there is a lack of explaining the strategic happenings thats going on, the result being a bored audience). The best casters are the ones from homestory cup. That's the only time I go "OHhhh shit! THAT'S why you do that! That's what you're trying to do! That's so smart!"
Maybe with the elephants coming we'll get an influx of amazing casters
Hi just thought i'd reply to some of the replies i have seen.
In respect of why i say DJ Wheat and TB are new to SC2 i mean as in they werent involved in SC:BW. For example i remember a dual cast between DJ Wheat and Day9 where he says "i love destrucble rocks" or something. I found it funny. Similar to TB. I mean nothing it. I just mean they are new to esports (SC:BW and SC2 generally). Hopefully that makes sense.
In respect to me being bias in the OP, well i did say it was my opinion. My comments about Wolf is purely my opinion. I still subscribe and watch GSL and GOM generally even if Wolf casts because i like the players and i can watch the stream and make my own judgment (mostly i mute them and have my own music playing).
Yes i missed out a number of other casters, dAppollo, Gretorp, Frodan, Catz (IPL Caster not the player!), etc etc. There are indeed alot of casters. I must say i wanted to write about dAppollo because he is so cool but i ran out of time ><. If i was to say something about dApollo. I twould be that he is without a doubt passionate, insightful and very charismatic. Just look at the most recent MLG! But yes. I am sorry if i missed out alot of other casters (eg especially community casters), i just wanted to get the main casters i see at major tournaments (GSL, OSL, MLG, NASL). I mean no disrespect but leaving you out.
In respect of why i put additional content as an key issue is because sometimes people can overlook other issues if their contribution in other ways is valuable (eg HotBid albiet for TL, lots of interviews etc). So sometimes even though their castign is sub-quality (if you can call it that), the fact that i know they do great work else where means its okay. It is sort of like your work responsibility. Just because you do one thing bad and you do the rest doesnt mean you do a bad job overall.
My personal opinion on casters is that they need to understand the game at a fairly high level. What that looks like for me is being able to play random at masters level or at least high diamond. That may sound like a tall order but I think it makes a major difference. My best example would be Apollo who I consider to be one of the best casters mainly because of his insight. When it comes to casting duos I think one person should be at the random masters level.
Wolf having less knowledge than Day9, dont make me laugh. Hating on Wolf is just stupid. All the GOM casters are miles ahead of everyone else except for Apollo.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
hm,i am kinda thinking XD,i do agree with some part but something i feel like u players doesn't understand is that an exciting caster needs to be there even the analytical one needs some amount of charisma,when i watch the HSC(i actually why aren't u guys trying to show of yourselfs a little bit more there as u have a spectaculare opporunity to show how'a beautifull cast'could look like)i literally can't stand when some of u guys cast just because u sound incredible boring(don't get excited at all and under the whole cast just talk in one tone and no really 'power'behind it),u call games fast,and u have no synergy with your other casters,it sounds more like u are asking each other about opinions than rather sounding confident in what u think is 'right'which is suprising considering u guys should know most about what is happening in the game.... but anyways i just want to say that exciting casters is a must since they are the ones getting in viewers,u can't expect people with families and jobs to just spend hours on a game to learn about it,and weather u like it or not,thats how it is for most.over 50%are gold or lower,they won't get whats happening if u put two pros together and talk about hardcore analysis,ofc i think casters have alot to improve on but cmon the game is only 2 years old,and not only the casters but the players have alot to improve on,we still see alot of boring games and mistakes,doesn't mean we will always see them everything of this is just my own opinion though
The fact that the OP left out Apollo takes all the credibility from the post.
Apollo, along with Artosis by far the most knowleadgeable of current full-time casters. Can't believe how underrated the guy still is after all the great work he has done.
Also claiming that Wolf&Khaldor do not know they're way around the builds and meta is kinda ridiculous and just plain wrong in my opinion. Granted they talk alot about useless stuff (like Wolf obsessing about hair styles and what not), but most of the time they are spot on with their play-by-play and analysis. Also the pair always seem to know the players and have interesting tidbits to give about their backrounds, this in my opinion make them perfect code A and GSTL casters, where we have a lot more unknown or not star status players.
Moletrap on the other hand doesn't know starcraft, he misses so much stuff, even things that have nothing to do with "meta-game", things that are so obvious even complete beginners might spot them. When he was a Code A caster I always used to just not watch when it was his turn to cast. In my opinion he just simply doesn't have what it takes to be a great caster. Sorry.
To make this post not just about who is best and what not, my requirements for good casting are: -Knowledge, I want the caster to tell me things that I do not nessessarily know (predict builds and all that) and explain why said thing is important. I do not need someone to tell me obvious things that i can see on the screen, that is just filler. -Charisma. Style of casting is just as equally important as knowledge. The content needs to be delivered in a manner that is entertaining and pleasant on the ears and eyes. Charisma and voice are an important part of this. Tasteless is a great example of a caster who clearly isn't that up to date with the metagame, but is a great charismatic person who knows how to deliver and isn't afraid to work with his co-caster in areas that he himself might be lacking. As for the other points, Passion is obviously important in whatever a person does, but isn't necessarily a point that i would consider vital in a great caster and great play-by-play just comes with being a engaging personality and charismatic speaker.
After watching tons of LoL/Dota this weekend, I really feel like our SC2 casters are kind of sub par, as awful as that sounds. The casters in the other games do really well with their co-casters, don't stumble over words, put a lot of excitement and passion into it, and just did a really great job, in my opinion. The only thing we have that's close to that for me, at least, would be Day9/Apollo or Tastosis.
I guess more than anything, I want professionalism. The International just looked flat out professional, from the caster booths to the player booths to the crisp casting. I feel like SC2 gets almost too personal and comfortable to the point where it becomes less and less about the game.
i know the key. the key to being a good caster is helping the viewer pay attention to every little thing that happens in the game. perhaps this means knowing the ins and outs of how the build a player is using usually works out on a map like grubby
perhaps this means "mirror[ing] some of the anxiety that I would feel if I was playing in a similar situation." for example, i will never forget moletrap brilliantly casting a game where Luxury 4pools. "OH no! luxury what are you doing....-_____-???? Luxuries *cheesing*...... hes not building ANY drones"... basically jokingly treating him like a contemptible knuckle head.. so luxury attacls the terram and we have this emotional investment and the terran struggles to get a bunker and he gets it up but fails to get the marine in moletrap is saying "oh noooo! get the marine in the bunker buddy!!!" such a great viewing experience... also in those vods we could always see the player's facial expressions..
perhaps this means artistic exaggeration "the terran WAR machine that is KT flash, sprouts more and more metal on the map, gaining land with robotic indifference "savior the the hope of the zerg commands the zerg hoardes with the feeling precision of a maestro conducting his orchestra! the hoardes flood the map like a disease taking a planet for its own use""..this type of thing doesn't teach us much, instead it makes emotional investment making me pay attention in differeny and maybe focus more...
The key to being a good caster is probably getting advice from other established casters, public speaking skills, and the ability to completely ignore gaming forums.
edit: I think Ret's rant might reflect more on the game itself rather than the casting.
Good observing is key! Game knowledge isn't a big factor for me, I think that if you watch enough starcraft you'll know what going on regardless of what the casters are telling you, and I don't really understand the rage I hear when casters make tiny mistakes.
Insight is pretty useful, yeah, one of the reasons I dislike Tasteless a bit as a caster is that he rambles nonsense from time to time. I think the most key things are a good voice and charisma, but realistically you do need it all to be a good caster (although you don't need analytical skills if you're casting in a duo). The most solid casters out there IMO are Artosis and Apollo, they got it all : Charisma, humor, good play-by-play, good analytical skills, good voice, knows the metagame well (Artosis knows Korean metagame almost exclusively though), and passion for the game.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
I have really mixed feelings about this post. I do agree with most of this post because I like to have in-depth analysis given to me by people who simple know a lot more than I do. Yet this topic reminds me of Cloud's vlog and (I think) some of Idra's talks about how most of the time analysts credit player for making moves in with a precise goal when what they do is just "random shit" (not sure who said that exact phrase, but it's out there somewhere on the internet, and the internet is a big scary place). So casters have to find some sort of middle ground. Day9 (easiest example here) gets excited about an army move, a timing or a pylon placement, he explains why at great lenghts and people say "dude, seriously that's just random shit being done, cause you have to do something with that APM". Then he obviously takes that into account (maybe it's just me, but I feel that most casters have actually reduced the amount of analysis they lately) and people suddenly think of him as "just an entertainer". There IS a middle ground to be found, somewhere. Maybe there is also something to be done on the community's side.
Now onto the "helping Starcraft 2 and e-sports grow" part of things. Well sadly most people actually prefer a much more play-by-play, exciting, sometimes screaming type of casting. I love to hear Apollo's insight on a game, I love to hear Artosis's latest korean metagame analysis. I'm an absolute sucker for Grubby's casting (and English, and hair). Like you said it makes me feel closer to the pro's minds, to a level of thinking about the game I would never get to by myself, and that makes Starcraft beautiful, no question about that. Yet I can't help but feel that we need people like TB, like djWheat, like Husky, who clearly don't know as much about the inner workings of Starcraft, but are so enthusiastic that they can keep you on the edge of your seat in almost any situation. Why do we need them? Because I think (I have no numbers on that, just a feeling) that most people who play or know Starcraft 2 enough that they can fully understand and appreciate an in-depth analysis from Apollo, Artosis, you or Idra while STILL following the game already do watch Starcraft. In order to grow, this game needs to target new demographics: people who don't play the game, but like to watch it the same way anyone would watch Premier League football or NBA basketball. These people won't understand an in-depth analysis, and most of them don't even want to. They want to be entertained, to see spectacular plays and to be excited about it. It's a very "simple" pleasure. I understand the frustration it leads to when you have a very high knowledge of the game. I've played basketball almost my whole life, and listening Mike Breen or Mike Tirico can even get painfully embarrassing (even the analysis is most of the time really basic), yet these are the kind of people who can get the audience excited. Starcraft needs that.
I think overall the whole "analysis desk" thing that MLG has started to work on in recent events is probably the best solution, though it still needs some polishing. People need to learn to use that big screen to its full potential, and YOU DO NOT PUT DJWHEAT OR TB IN AN "ANALYSIS" TEAM. I love them, but it's just not their job. Still, having an analysis team on the side with progamers like Axslav, Grubby and other progamers with that kind of profile gives depth to a tournament and makes for a much more easily understandable analysis than Artosis quickly explaining between two roach pushes why this and that was important, relying on pre-existing knowledge on the viewer's side.
Too me, the biggest thing is how they talk. Simple as that. If they can't speak clearly, and with purpose during a cast of a game I lose interest. That is the biggest thing I look at before I hate on casters. Game knowledge and stuff is important too, but if you can't speak clearly it doesn't matter.
I seriously don't like threads like this. It feels like we are judging these casters while we get free commentary. No wonder tasteless doesn't come on TL. Too judgmental. The community seriously needs to stop being so judgmental about the casters who were hired by people smarter than us and need to let these casters breathe
You shouldn't put Artosis and Tastless in the same category. Tastless is a good sidekick, but he almost never contributes in substantial ways to the casting, Artosis is the guy who has both understanding of the game and is up to speed (at least in comparison to the other casters).
On September 04 2012 00:37 Dontkillme wrote: I seriously don't like threads like this. It feels like we are judging these casters while we get free commentary. No wonder tasteless doesn't come on TL. Too judgmental. The community seriously needs to stop being so judgmental about the casters who were hired by people smarter than us and need to let these casters breathe
Dontkillme, you're killing e-Sports. Everything is so new in it and needs constructive criticism.
Hmm, you missed the most important point in the OP. In the words of djWHEAT. Telling a story. Its all about the storyline, if you don't have a story then its a meaningless match.
I usually watch husky and HD, along with whatever's uploaded to day9tv.
Husky's lack of game knowledge pisses me off sometimes. For the last like 100 ZvP's he gets surprised and worked up about "Zerg taking a super fast third!"
This has been the metagame for months, yet he still gets worked up about it lol.
I much prefer day9's casting. I play Zerg, but after watching him cast a TvZ I feel like I've learned more and could even try out Terran!
The thing I hate most in casters is feigned enthusiasm and excitement. If there's nothing interesting happening, I don't want to be told how 'sick' this game is. I also don't want to hear 'sick fungals/forcefields'. Fungals and forcefields aren't exactly hard to place (especially fungal).
I hate play by play casters, I can see whats happening on the screen myself perfectly fine, thank you. I have eyes. I want to hear strategy and in depth knowledge. Explanations of why pro's are doing things, opinions on what they're doing (I actually like that, if it's not biased).
I like humour a lot too, it doesn't even have to be totally 100 percent related to starcraft either.
On September 04 2012 00:41 Vague wrote: You shouldn't put Artosis and Tastless in the same category. Tastless is a good sidekick, but he almost never contributes in substantial ways to the casting, Artosis is the guy who has both understanding of the game and is up to speed (at least in comparison to the other casters).
can't blame tasteless. He lost his passion because sc2 just isn't as interesting as bw..
I love watching/listening to casters that are not only extremely knowledgeable about the game, but are passionate. You can tell that every time you hear Day[9] cast, he puts his heart into it. He absolutely loves this game and the community and it comes across in his casts. Same with Husky (even though a lot of people dislike him).
I do feel like knowledge is import, but I'd much rather have a caster who sounds like he loves the game; get excited when a big engagement happens, sounds disappointed when one of the player lost a big fight, etc. That's what I love.
progamers make the best casters, idra and Grubby for example, could listen to those dudes all day, I'm not interested in the entertainment aspect of casting, if I wanted to hear some comedy I could go watch a Bill Hicks dvd, I know you have to make it entertaining or whatever but I find learning about the game and gaining insight entertaining, but maybe I'm in the minority.
I love when a progamer streams his own analysis of a tourney, more progamers should do this imo.
It seems like there is a growing culture of fame hungry casters and that it's easier to "make it" as a personality and a caster now than it is to be good at the game and that people are choosing this route over playing and why shouldn't they if the money and over avenues it opens up are more beneficial and vast than being a progamer, there were more casters at a recent MLG than a players, and it's always kind of sad when tourneys make a huge deal out of who is casting but not about the players.
Also, Good observer and a progamer casting from his bedroom > 10 big name youtube celebrity king of the web casters and a bad obs
there are good hype casters out there, like DJjWheat but there are too many who live off the play by play tag when in reality they are just plain bad at casting
Also here's Moletrap and Klazart casting that infamous MSL Flash vs Jaedong Finals:
(Also Moletrap's thought on Jaedong given the win at around 24 minutes and 30 seconds. Basically he understands and makes the point it would have been unfair to Jaedong too if they did a rematch [in any case, it's a lose lose all around as it's hard to make the right calls].)
As you can see in the video (they start talking about the game instead of the players a minute in), Moletrap is much better in BW than in SC2 (especially with co casting).
Moletrap was good in BW. He knew all the players, he knew most of the strategies, he basically knew most of the stuff needed to cast BW.
It's not what Moletrap lacks but what he lost from BW to SC2. I hope people realize this and becomes a bit more supportive of him in SC2.
He was much better in BW than in SC2.
Moletrap was one of the most beloved casters in BW (in fact, there's a reason there's an SC2 map named after him >.>).
There were haters (but there are haters for everyone, even Tasteless and Artosis has the occasional hater) but there were really the minority.
Anyway, as you can see in the video, Moletrap was great in BW and great at cocasting. Also, he definitely took in feedback as well.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
Best post in the entire thread. On-topic: I also feel that Wolf doesn't really have a passion for StarCrafr, or at least he doesn't voice it.
Casters just need to know what they are talking about, so often they miss really REALLY easy stuff and then they all start getting confused. I've literally seen casts where the casters don't understand something baller that one of the players do. I have more respect and appreciation for observers IMO, they are ones that point all the shit out to the casters, all the casters do really is be personable/likeable eSports is a business, casters are the pr.
Also I hate husky and every other caster that start shouting and yelling when a battle happens, for gods sakes we wanna pay attention to the battle and how they control not how close you get to peeing your pants out of excitement from 5 lings vs 2 marines...
Another thing I'd like to say is that casters are really only helpful for lower players, better players can understand the decisions of a pro when watching a game 9/10 (save gsl cuz that shit is always fresh and intense.) at least to the degree that the caster understand pro decisions.
Thank you Ret. In trying to create mass appeal some casters have dumbed down their content too much. I'm looking at you, Day9. Used to love what you did, and every now and then I hear some flash of brilliance, but it feels like mostly now a days you're just describing whats on the screen, not what's in a players head.
A good caster has to have excitement in his voice like Artosis sometimes. The other big thing is his voice - caster like Doa are just too boring and Khaldor is sometimes to "overhyped" especially with his "Dying-Sounds" sometimes. :p
A perfect caster would be Artosis with TB-Voice. Or better a Duo like Artosis + TB (or Husky)
tehy need insight, passion, a good voice, the ability to get really exited when appropiate, never seem bored and the ability to give good insight while being funny in a way that makes people laugh but not so much that they dont get taken seriously
they need to be able to fill dead time in a way taht doesnt seem like there ranting but is entertaining but not so entertaining that it takes away from the game and they cant fill time in such a way that they have to keep talking after action starts up again
they have to sell themselves in a way that it doesnt actually seem like there selling themselves
they need to be respectful to both players and highlight why someone win not why someone lost but still have the balls to call big mistakes
thats what i think you need to do to be the perfect caster
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
watch apollo, then do the opposite. He over analyses everything, explaining what players could be or should be doing rather than actually casting the game. I want to know what's going on and not what could have been the outcome had player A done this, etc... He tries way too hard to be like artosis imo, and falls short on actually telling the viewer what is happening. Whenever Apollo is casting i just cringe because he talks so much about theory and what he thinks the players should have done. HD is also pretty bad imo because he makes stupid jokes and talks about pointless things.
Some casters are good for some styles and some casters for others, obviously. If I'm watching a big tournament and i want everything, I'll look for Apollo or Tastosis. If I want to sit back and have some fun watching some games I hit up SamSC2 (which is great, he has genuine enthusiasm without resorting to the yelling)
From an analysis standpoint, Ret's post made me realize that, yeah, the casters rarely attempt to read into the mind of the players and explain what he is trying to do, beyond super basic strategy. After a tournament game is over and the player gets interviewed, if he gets asked 'why' for certain scenarios the answer is not 'i wanted to kill his third' its something more in-depth like 'if i attacked his third, he would have to react in this way so i was preparing for that to win the game.' (as an over-simplified example)
It does make me miss the live translations we used to watch by in BW, we would get this often from casters. I was extremely happy in the TSL4 when (i cant remember the players tt) a player blocked the natural expo from the zerg on metropolis, the zerg took the third base location and added gas Apollo, well in advance predicted a nydus attack, to see the nydus go down after, the zerg player knew it, the caster knew it, and the audience knew it. (it was a shame that the casters didnt see the nydus get scouted) I cant wait till we see more forward knowledge like this.
Content overload. Everything is casted. Instead of showing the world our best, we drown it with everything. Everyone is trying to make a name for themselves. Esports is selfish.
My biggest pet peeve when it comes to casting is over using statistical tools. ex: SC2: The unit/production/income tabs. Dota 2: The exp/gold graphs
If you need the graph to tell you what is going on then you are doing nothing for me as a caster, you are literally just restating the obvious. Since most casters are now just shoutcasters, instead of analysts, they overuse the living hell out of statistical tools instead of just breaking down the game.
On September 03 2012 17:25 ROOTT1 wrote: all i want is a knowledgeable caster, he could be driest person on the planet for all i care. HIGH LVL ANALYSIS PLZ!
TT1. Yes, for you perhaps the most high level analysis possible is preferable, but if you want to grow esports then you are going to have to accept what the republican party has begun to realize: we need to grow the middle class.
and TT1 wants to grow sc2 in the same way the republicans want to grow the middle class..... fuck the noobs/poor and let the rich/best have anything they want ;p
On September 04 2012 00:37 Dontkillme wrote: I seriously don't like threads like this. It feels like we are judging these casters while we get free commentary. No wonder tasteless doesn't come on TL. Too judgmental. The community seriously needs to stop being so judgmental about the casters who were hired by people smarter than us and need to let these casters breathe
Oh don't worry, we absolutely love being constantly shit on, even accused of "killing esports". We especially enjoy it after coming off a 16 hour cast, so everyone make sure to post that stuff then!
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
What makes a good caster is their knowledge and insight of the game as well as their passion for the game in my opinion. This is why I feel like progamers always make the best casters.
Play by play casters are good for the newbies I guess, but in order for the game to become more popular, we need more in-depth casters that show the audience more of what's going on in the game besides what they on the surface. Day9, Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam immediately jump to mind as well as the players that casted at HSC.
On September 04 2012 03:16 K3Nyy wrote: What makes a good caster is their knowledge and insight of the game as well as their passion for the game in my opinion. This is why I feel like progamers always make the best casters.
Play by play casters are good for the newbies I guess, but in order for the game to become more popular, we need more in-depth casters that show the audience more of what's going on in the game besides what they on the surface. Day9, Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam immediately jump to mind as well as the players that casted at HSC.
So you're saying that in order for Starcraft 2 to become more popular, we need casters that adress the needs of people ALREADY watching the game ? How does that make the game more popular ?
Also, sorry but, although it is fun to see players cast once in a while, most of them can't afford to take the time to do it outside of a tournament like HSC. And let's be honest, it's fun but if you take away MaNA (does cast well but speak a bit too fast in my opinion), IdrA (who has a bit of a casting experience with EG) TLO and Ret (not quite there yet but their casting is improving TLO was cool at ASUS ROG), the players we saw casting at HSCV were really boring. They did say some interesting things, but there was no intensity in the games and it just wasn't fun in the long run. (Tarson casting is cool but would you pick him to cast a whole tournament?)
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
There is actually, the korean casters do a fantastic job of really high level analysis during games... especially during gsl and proleague/osl.
I would like to see casters making an effort to improve their diction. Proper speech (for me) adds a lot of professionalism and is a big part of what separates eSports casters from casters of established sports. Casters' lapsing into the same tired, grammatically-dubious and low-vocabulary speech patterns game after game makes me get tired of them fast.
Its also why I am a huuuge fan of Grubby's casting - not only does he have great insight but he is really articulate.
A lot of it, for me, depends on how casters fill time during the early phases of the game and slow moments. I think it is incredibly annoying when casters fill time with completely unrelated drivel and I'd much rather see the casters talk about the two players. Give me some statistics, tell me how they've done against their opponents race lately, let me know what builds they prefer on these maps. For GSL this is now something partially done by the production team, but across the board it is severely lacking. Instead of this, we get some completely irrelevant story about how Khaldor had trouble getting on the subway, or whatever and that just annoys the hell out of me.
I absolutely love high level analysis. Listening to pros explain why someone is doing x or building y, I love that. I love finding out the reason why they do things the way they do. That is sorely lacking, too. I mean yes, you have the likes of Apollo and Artosis who are probably most up to speed on the meta, but usually I don't feel like they grasp the subtleties either.
I totally agree with ret's post. The tournament that I enjoy the most out of all is the homestory cup, because there you actually get casters, who are able to provide very interesting insights into the players' minds, the metagame, and the little psychological mindgames. I'm not a very good player, but I know the game well enough to see what's going on on the screen, so I don't need somebody, who's describing that to me. I love casters, whose understanding of the game allows them to focus on the really important elements of a game. That's why I think that Apollo is one of the best casters out there - not only he's an amazing player, he's also very articulate. Sometimes his calls are off, but let's be honest: In a volatile game like SC2, it's just impossible to judge any given situation correctly.
I don't want to be rude and I also respect people like DjWheat for what they're doing for e-sports in general, but I think that the whole scene would benefit from less "wohooo nice fungal / forcefield / guardian shield" (yes, I've actually heard casters scream "nice guardian shield"). Less shouting, more analysis. Less self-promoting, more focus on what the players are doing.
But it's also important that the community allows new casters to enter the scenery. Personally, I'm very happy, when I see a new face casting: the more competition, the better.
It's also very cool to see that Khaldor is getting more and more knowledgable, his casting has improved a lot during the last few months. On the other hand, I've got the feeling that Day9's casting has seen better days, but maybe that's just my personal impression. On the last few occasions I've listened to him, his whole performance was full of redundancies, though.
I know that some people are saying that analytical casting might scare away noobs, but let's be honest: Someone talking about nice guardian shields won't really help a noob understanding the game. New players are overwhelmed by the information they see on the screen anyway, so they automatically are focusing on the obvious things: Who's got the bigger army? Who's got more bases? Who's got more workers? I think that people are intelligent enough to figure out the elemental aspects of the game by themselves. A good analytical (yet passionate) caster can help them on their journey to finally get a grasp on the machinery behind the obvious information.
If you watch a tournament and have apollo, artosis or even bitterdam predict something that's gonna happen within the next few minutes of the game and while they are explaining the reasons behind it, pointing out how awesome the player is for doing this or that and it really happens, then you have the love of many viewers. There's a reason Homestory cup is so awesome, because the pros comments give insight in the game, where all those lame ass "OOOOOOOHHHHHHH, AAAAAAAAHHHHHH WOWOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAHAHHHHHHHHH" casters, who think screaming louder means doing a better job just fail.
I've always been kind of surprised at the amount of praise Mr. Bitter gets. Don't get me wrong, he is a good caster but he is ONLY good when he's casting with Rotterdam. Watch him cast with anyone else and it's very awkward with little chemistry going on. I feel kind of bad for saying this because I met him at NASL and he's a really nice guy but again I'm a little thrown off by all the praise.
In a way, it's another element of casting that I think is important which is being flexible with other casters and not only being comfortable with the person you regularly cast with. Tastosis is great but Artosis is able to cast well when he's with someone else too.
i think wolf and khaldor are great.. tastosis is still my favourite duo.. but also like TB and Apollo.. Husky is great in is own way.. haha.. so many random funny jokes at the RedBull LAN.. lol.
I do think that Insight (meta-game) is important.. I guess I'm just used to the current pool of casters and have come to enjoy them.
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote: I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
There is actually, the korean casters do a fantastic job of really high level analysis during games... especially during gsl and proleague/osl.
As has been remarked by many people in this thread, casters can be broadly divided into two different categories.
Analytical Casters- e.g Apollo, Artosis...
Play-by-play Casters- e.g Husky, TotalBiscuit...
Of course some casters do not entirely fit in either category, and others can play both roles (e.g Day[9]).
To be successful as an analytical caster a person needs to have:
>an extremely in depth knowledge of the current metagame >the ability to read the different builds that the players are going and predicting the game (using the knowledge of the metagame) >the ability to explain why the players are doing what they are doing, and to be able to point out the blunders that the players are making
A play-by-play caster however needs:
>the ability to concisely describe the situation (which can especially help newer viewers) >the ability to hype up the game >fill up the slower moments of the game (opening moments, or moments with no agression) by providing information about the players, or the map, or strong build orders
Progamers can amply fulfill the "analytical caster" requirements, due to their knowledge of the metagame, and can help raise the level of casting. The biggest hurdle for pros, is diction, as pros sometimes struggle to explain exactly why and how something would happen. Also pros are excellent at mini-map watching, which, as casters, would help the observing of the game(multi-pronged drops etc). The play-by-play caster doesn't necessarily need as much knowledge of the game, but needs to master diction to the highest degree.
The original post sounds way too biased about the casters to me. I don't like or dislike Wolf but he is not a bad caster AT ALL. He may not have Artosis's insight but he's definitely better than most. Bitterdam is good but not at the level of Tastosis, there is a lot of bias in their casting. Just my 2 cents.
I'm so sick and tired of the "but we NEED this and that to grow ESPORTS, we NEED it to be in THIS way so it can become mainstream". How fucking long are we gonna have this mindset? Isn't big enough for you already? How big and "mainstream" is enough for you to start enjoying what we have already? It sucks for us who are actually sticking with the game and scene and actually play it to have bronze casters who talk out of their hat and explain things every game like if we all are bronze noobs aswell. Why not cater to the actually audience and not the "potential" audience?
You don't see casters in other sports or in many other games for that matter sitting there explaining how the game works. That is something you look up yourself.
On September 04 2012 03:14 Dosey wrote: It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
after reading this thread or any other thread about casting can you really be surprised at the lack of competition? progamer or otherwise, who wants to get into casting when all you'll get is people pouring over your every statement just waiting for you to say something wrong so they can shit on you?
#1: Do your homework: Basically there are about three casters out there who actually know what they're talking about. And, that's in terms of strategy, almost nobody follows the scene well enough to know the lesser known players, or to know how a famous player has been doing recently. Apollo is basically the only one that fits both categories. Kudos to him, but it's really pathetic that so many casters don't take the time out of their day to do research ahead of casting gigs. Every time I write an article, I make sure I know the people I'm writing about first, it's mind blowing that casters don't feel the same responsibility.
#2: Practice with a purpose Just like there are a lot of Sc2 players who play a billion games and never get better, so too are there a lot of casters who cast a ton of things, and don't improve. Just like a good Sc2 player mixes in some replay watching and some stream watching to improve their own game, so does a good caster critique themselves, identifies flaws in their delivery and watches other casters to learn and gain perspective.
#3: Stop trying to be so smart Everyone is so obsessed with predicting what's going to happen, and it's really terrible. I much prefer casters who focus on what is going on at the moment, and then think critically about why that's happening.You see a lot of casters spend minutes talking about scenarios that will never come to play. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Let the players play the game, and explain what's going on for the audience.
#4: Stop trying to be so smart, Pt. 2 Negativity is the saddest thing a caster can bring to the table. There are tons of popular casters who seem to completely forget that they have total map vision, and the players don't. They're always being critical of players for things that are totally understandable mistakes. They're holding some players to totally unreasonable standards. If you're casting two NA GM's, of course they're not going to be able to multitask properly, so why even bring it up? Code A players are really really good, but don't hold them to the top of Code S standard. I think when casters are negative, it makes me think less of the game and really makes me bored by the end of it. It's awful, the absolute worst casters in Sc2 are the overly negative ones. It's compounded by the fact that, as explained in #1, these people usually use their negativity to cover up their own terrible game knowledge and preparation.
#5: Understand why you're there Not every caster has been around esports their entire life. Not every caster has an RTS mind like Day9 or Artosis. Not every caster can be full-time and can put in as much study as Apollo. I think the community expects casters for dry, clinical analysis, but if you listen to the Korean casters (the best in the game, there's no doubt) you'll realize that it's possible to be both informed and really exciting. I'd rather listen to the Koreans than any English caster. Their enthusiasm is infectious. They're telling the korean fans what's going on, but to someone who doesn't understand them, their voices make up the emotional tenor of the game. That's the caster's first job, not analysis. It's to be authentically excited about the game, and to give the viewers the emotional cues to make the game more entertaining.
On September 04 2012 03:14 Dosey wrote: It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
after reading this thread or any other thread about casting can you really be surprised at the lack of competition? progamer or otherwise, who wants to get into casting when all you'll get is people pouring over your every statement just waiting for you to say something wrong so they can shit on you?
You talk as if this is different in the pro scene?
I think this will be semi-long. Basically though, People need information and they need to know how to apply it.
I don't think someone has to be a high level analyst with a ton of game knowledge to be a good caster. I don't actually even think that it's entirely necessary or the "best" way to cast. BUT I think a lot of people attach to that as the idea of what the "Best" kind of caster is because it shares a commonality that we just don't see in any of the casters really, and that is just high quality judgement and analysis in general. What I'm saying is, there is a difference between being able to analyze well, and doing an "analytical cast."
you could think of artosis as the best example of an analytical cast, especially on days where he disregards screaming at all. Or apollo. Or TLO.
But when it comes to just analyzing and correctly calling things and pointing things out in general WITHOUT all the high level back ground...there really isn't anyone. And if they do from time to time, it's entirely drowned out by the excessive screeching and stupid noises about equally stupid unexciting things like "zomg a fungal landed"...I genuinely can't decide if it's just because they think that's what their job is supposed to be, or they think they need to hype the game up making a big deal about explosions like SC2 needs to be a michael bay movie because the plot by itself isn't interesting enough in their opinion, or what. I really don't.
So we get garbage, and then we get people who either are, or attempt to be, really really purely analytical, with various degrees of success, because that's what the community asks for, and because that middle ground is very difficult to find, I think, because it requires a lot of game knowledge to be able to correctly identify everything and interpret it WITHOUT semi-devolving into an information bot.
So you can take people like Rotterdam (no really we're going through a few casters): Rotterdam does a lot more analysis than he used to, and makes a very big effort to give information and his opinion on the cast and what's going on and what he thinks people are going to potentially do. His biggest caveat in there however, is that most of the information he seems to be drawing from is his own personal experiences on the euro server or what he experiences with his friends or what his friends talk about, which limits his range a little and sometimes points him in the wrong direction. But he's still an amazing caster and honestly probably the best example of someone trying to find that middle ground I mentioned.
I think Khaldor is in a similar position of trying to find that middle ground. He has a lot of information and he tries to give a genuinely good cast without being all the way over to Artosis. Instead of falling to his own experience a bit too much like Rotterdam, he has problems with the other side of things. He turns his judgements into actual judgements and his casts sometimes sound like a coach looking at his player's replays. It's the part where the analysis meets the information and has to come out in a "cast", and again, I think that's the hardest part about casting.
Those are really the big two that stand out for me for what I'm talking about. I'm not saying shout-casting needs to go either; just that shout-casting in general from our casters has been completely bastardized into incoherent rambling and loud noises without any actual casting involved, and that that needs to change. And if you want to cast, or want to be a good caster, you need to have information, and then USE that information to aid your shout-cast, or your play by play, or your pure analysis, or your relaxed sort of community talk watching a replay together-cast
------------------- I think it's something the community should demand more of itself and it's casters. This screaming putting on a lights show bullshit zomg storm is just stupid. There needs to be more competition and the industry needs to demand actual excellence of itself and it's casters rather than "hey you're a cool guy in the community, THEREFORE YOU ARE NOW QUALIFIED TO CAST STARCRAFT" which is effectively the position a lot of people have.
SO, TLDR: have information and use that information you have. If analytical, bake it in correctly, If more shout-casting type (there arent just two), equally bake that in so you don't sound like a screeching nitwit all the fucking time. Also, regardless of what you are, you have to do both to varying degrees. Also also, community should expect more.
On September 04 2012 04:42 Gosi wrote:You don't see casters in other sports or in many other games for that matter sitting there explaining how the game works. That is something you look up yourself.
There's no specific trait to being good caster, everyone has their own style of doing it.
What makes me mad during casts is bashing players about mistakes and making misleading predictions. For some reason, I know Khaldor for both bashing players and making bad predictions, and I mean, obviously bad ones.
I do like TB's way of casting. He knows he's got pretty low game knowledge so he doesn't go into "This build is so popular on korean ladder, blablabla", he just comments what he sees, you can fully enjoy the game, thinking on your own.
Analysis is awesome, but I like it done after the game, not during it. You have the ability to have your own prespective of the game, which will be based on your own game knowledge, your awareness, not the knowledge of some guy sitting in front of camera.
I would say that "insightful" casters are better for the people who are pretty new to the game, comments like that help people to understand the game better, sometimes those comments are overused and make the game bleak.
On September 04 2012 04:42 Gosi wrote:You don't see casters in other sports or in many other games for that matter sitting there explaining how the game works. That is something you look up yourself.
Actually yes you do.
In what?
On September 04 2012 04:58 tree.hugger wrote: #5: Understand why you're there Not every caster has been around esports their entire life. Not every caster has an RTS mind like Day9 or Artosis. Not every caster can be full-time and can put in as much study as Apollo. I think the community expects casters for dry, clinical analysis, but if you listen to the Korean casters (the best in the game, there's no doubt) you'll realize that it's possible to be both informed and really exciting. I'd rather listen to the Koreans than any English caster. Their enthusiasm is infectious. They're telling the korean fans what's going on, but to someone who doesn't understand them, their voices make up the emotional tenor of the game. That's the caster's first job, not analysis. It's to be authentically excited about the game, and to give the viewers the emotional cues to make the game more entertaining.
Yes, this is huge aswell. English sc2 casting is so dead compared to korean casting, or something like Dota casting. During the weekend alot of new people to Dota came to check it out and said how amazingly fun and exciting it was because the casters there made it amazing, even if they didn't understand what heroes and spells did.
But at the same time, as soon as someone is raising their voice in sc2 casting the casters get alot of hate because "he is screaming, why is he screaming? so annoying".
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
Agreed. I would say every caster is good at play-by-play, they speak fluidly, don't stutter, show enough enthusiasm, and throw in jokes and witty puns now and then to keep it interesting, but I rarely see casters look at a play and explain it in depth as to why they are doing it or why it is a good or bad decision. I feel that casters should be AT LEAST masters level and always talking to players and other casters to learn more about the current meta-game. Apollo's post-game analysis at summer championship is what I want at least one caster to sound like in every commentary
don't have insane "words per min" without anything from value.thats the reason i can't watch people like tb or apollo for some degree. they simply talk and talk and talk without any pause. and it must be damn exhausting because i feel after watching a game casted by them fucking done.
On September 04 2012 00:50 TBone- wrote: Hmm, you missed the most important point in the OP. In the words of djWHEAT. Telling a story. Its all about the storyline, if you don't have a story then its a meaningless match.
Pretty much this. I don't watch GSL because I can't be up at those hours, and can't be bothered to buy a season/year pass. But I love reading the previews, reviews, watching the brackets, reading the interviews and whatnot. The stories excite me more than watching any of the games.
I agree with everything Treehugger said. It's sometimes annoying when both players are on their own side of the map, then player A moves his army out of position, and then comments how player B could attack and basically win because player A wouldn't be to deal with it. They then get caught up into their own scenario that they then start to critisize player B for not taking advantage of something he had literally no way or knowing about.
That's a pretty specific example, and of course there are a hundred others, but this happens often enough it really does bother me.
Adjusting your tenor to try to create emotion in your cast depending on what's going on and devolving into a screaming noise-making full-retard "if my three year old were doing this i might beat them for it" ARE NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING.
Artosis carries the Tastosis casting gig, without him Tastless is helpless. Wolf on the other hand, has shown that he is quite capable of casting alone, he has great insight into the game and can be quite hilarious at times, thus I think Wolf >> Tastless, get your facts straight OP.
subtle Wolf bash thread is subtle.
And oh yeah don't ever put HD and "caster" together in the same thread/post/sentence please.
If anything casters NEED to stop prematurely saying GG's just focus on what is going on in the game, make it exciting, I hate, hate "so, um, gas going down here..."
On September 04 2012 04:58 tree.hugger wrote: [...] I'd rather listen to the Koreans than any English caster. Their enthusiasm is infectious. They're telling the korean fans what's going on, but to someone who doesn't understand them, their voices make up the emotional tenor of the game. That's the caster's first job, not analysis. It's to be authentically excited about the game, and to give the viewers the emotional cues to make the game more entertaining.
The problem is that a lot of english speaking casters try to sound emotional but it just sounds terribly fake. Every time I hear day9 saying "oooooooooooooh BEAUTIFUL STORMS" I get a headache. A lot of casters have fallen into this trap, particularly day9, bitter, tb and djwheat (prolly others I don't have in mind right now) their casts sound SO fake. A perfect counter example of this is Khaldor, he gets excited but you can feel he is trully passionate about the game and not just casting starcraft because it's the next hot game. Screaming is fine when needed, but don't yell every time a storm or a fungal is used, and don't say OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH the same way every freaking time.
Idra has such a monotone voice, but when he casts I really enjoy it a lot. Two key things when he casts sticks out for me...
1) good insight of the strategies/decisions made (duh!) 2) is NOT NEGATIVE .....he understands why certain players fucked up at various points in the game because he is trying to figure out what is going through their head and what information they have or had in the game. As a player Idra understands these guys are not scrubs and do random shit so he doesn`t criticize so harshly as many casters do these days.
I don't know if it's relevant to anyone, but if you want the view of a gold scrub who is new to the scene, I'd like to tell you what got me into the game in the first place. There is a lot of talk about "growing esports", and one perspective from a new viewer might be interesting.
It was, rather unsurprisingly, Day9. I had never played SC or any RTS until I stumbled upon him on Youtube a few months ago, found the dailies and started watching. This lead me to tournaments casted by him, I started enjoying it as a sport, eventually buying the game and attempting to learn it myself, with TL and the dailies as my way in. Since then I've watched basically every major tournament from GSL to HSC and a ton of smaller ones via streams like z33k.
I'm still not good enough to see all the small subtle things Ret talks about. And I have no idea whether I'm being told about them or not. I think that I have a general understanding of what happens in a progame even if I can't play at that level myself, having watched a lot of it, and sometimes I even find myself being right when a caster is wrong. But most likely, I'm just bad and not experiencing SC2 fully, and in no position to judge casters.
So what made me hooked when I didn't even know the game, and what kept me watching? The main thing in the beginning was Day9's positive attitude, his obvious love of the game. The same for Tastosis when I started watching the GSL. I love watching Apollo nowadays, I feel like I learn a lot when he casts, the same goes for Artosis. I'm not sure how much I'm learning from Day9 anymore when he's casting, but I love watching him cast because he's so freaking happy and excited. It's infectious. What got me hooked was the overwhelming positivity, the love of the game, that some casters have. So from this nooby scrub, positivity trumps everything. I don't care that much if I learn or get a good analysis of the games as long as the casters create an atmosphere of excitement and joy.
There are objective and subjective conditions, so this discussion is destined to fail because everyone is trying to interpret the subjective part as a fact.
subjective part: the caster must appeal to you as a person. ok, so the most important thing is taste, that can't be argued about, because everyone's is different. I for example can't stand Wolf's mannerisms, or TLO's voice, but that's my own taste, and everyone got their own unique tastes.
objective traits: do the research- yeah it's annoying if I know more about the scene when I only do sc2 as a hobby have a clear, nice voice- sorry guys, Rotterdam for example doesn't qualify, he always talks as if his mouth was full of something. no way would he ever be able to work as a caster at a real sport event on television, Khaldor and Tlo the same. if the guys job is to talk all day, then he should speak english better than me for example. this is not my taste, i even like rotterdam for example, but to me this is like a cripple trying to make a living as a runner. try to show as little bias as pos- if a caster adores a player that's not so annoying, sometimes it's even cute. but if they bash players... that's just unprofessional. the more objective the cast is, the more professional it seems to me good observing skills- self explanatory have a basic understanding of the game- ok i'm just diamond but it's strange when i can tell the guy has no clue of whats happening. if you're not sure, dont try to analyze
other than these, there are caster roles, the hardcore analyst, the play by playwho can make good atmosphere, the hybrid, etc- my expectations slightly vary. i expect at least a little bit of analysis, i dont mind play by play if its not dull (70% of the guys just telling whats happening on the screen). Pro gamers casting are cool but it's more of a treat to hear them at hsc for example, if the goal here is to set standards 90% them wouldnt qualify as serious casters
but anyways, if you like the person, you probably won't mind if he is missing out at other aspects, you probably even begin to like his flaws. i bet that most people rate the casters based on sympathy, not their skills. and if that's true you can't really specify traits, maybe just stuff that annoy you (like most ppl did in the thread)
On September 04 2012 05:36 ref4 wrote: Artosis carries the Tastosis casting gig, without him Tastless is helpless. Wolf on the other hand, has shown that he is quite capable of casting alone, he has great insight into the game and can be quite hilarious at times, thus I think Wolf >> Tastless, get your facts straight OP.
subtle Wolf bash thread is subtle.
And oh yeah don't ever put HD and "caster" together in the same thread/post/sentence please.
If anything casters NEED to stop prematurely saying GG's just focus on what is going on in the game, make it exciting, I hate, hate "so, um, gas going down here..."
You must have never seen tasteless and his GOM videos...
First and foremost, casting is a form of public speaking. Whether you're in a studio broadcasting to an online audience or sitting in front of a crowd, it's your job to convey to that audience what's going on and moreover, to do it in a way that generates excitement and interest. This means being aware of pitch, inflection, tone, and of course having a voice that's nice or at least inoffensive to listen to. Second and nearly as important is game knowledge. What do analysts of most pro sports have in common? They're usually retired players. They've played the game at a high level themselves, often for many years, and they know what they're seeing when they see it, even if the casual viewer does not. A lot of our prominent casters have the speaking skills but lack the knowledge. They need to play more, preferably with all races, keep up to date with metagame trends, and ralk to pro players when possible to bolster their knowledge.
Husky/HD should not be in the same group. HD clearly hasn't been working on his casting as much as Husky has, and Husky is one of the best play by play casters, and even though i call him a play by play caster he actually has a lot of knowledge about the game. HD doesn't know much about the game anymore, and he always talks about outdated shit. He also sucks a lot at the introduction and just rambles off about something random.
Sorry if this kind of sounds like a hate post, but I really do believe everything that's written here...
no appolo, kaelaris nor orb, outdated impressions of the casters.
day9 is nothing like tastosis, when he cast he is mostly play by play which is a shame because he is really good at analysing (before he got famous.) Artosis is carrying tasteless but tasteless still has great moments.
For me, insight and passion are the best combo but i don't like when casters try to overhype things.
What I really dislike about casters is that they sometimes pretend that a game isn´t over when it´s obvious that one player is going to win for sure. I´m not talking about situations where it might be possible to come back but there are situations where it´s basically impossible to win for a player unless his opponent wants to lose on purpose.(For example in ZvP when the Zerg has 5 bases, 200/200 Broodlord/Infestor army and his Protoss enemy has 50 supply and no mining and just a few Stalkers. I know that´s very specific but you get the idea.)
Some people say it´s disrespectful towards the players but I have to disagree here because the caster is just stating facts. Just look at soccer commentators, let´s say team A leads 10-0 versus Team B and there´s only one minute left to play. No one would say that Team B might have a chance to win because it´s almost physically impossible. The same thing applies to Starcraft as well, there´s a point when a game is clearly over and it´s obvious who´s gonna win. There´s no need to tell something else in these situations.
On September 04 2012 03:14 Dosey wrote: It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
after reading this thread or any other thread about casting can you really be surprised at the lack of competition? progamer or otherwise, who wants to get into casting when all you'll get is people pouring over your every statement just waiting for you to say something wrong so they can shit on you?
You talk as if this is different in the pro scene?
i didn't say it doesn't happen, but i think casters often get way more shit than players do, outside of a few examples. at least in my experience, anyway.
On September 04 2012 03:14 Dosey wrote: It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
after reading this thread or any other thread about casting can you really be surprised at the lack of competition? progamer or otherwise, who wants to get into casting when all you'll get is people pouring over your every statement just waiting for you to say something wrong so they can shit on you?
You talk as if this is different in the pro scene?
i didn't say it doesn't happen, but i think casters often get way more shit than players do, outside of a few examples. at least in my experience, anyway.
This is also because you cant get into a major tournament without qualifying/being generally competent at the game. There have been grossly unqualified casters who are simply picked up because they applied.
Furthermore, the most direct form of 'shit' players get for poor play is elimination/no winnings. Casters have audience feedback instead of a direct opponent.
On September 04 2012 07:51 Wayne123 wrote: What I really dislike about casters is that they sometimes pretend that a game isn´t over when it´s obvious that one player is going to win for sure. I´m not talking about situations where it might be possible to come back but there are situations where it´s basically impossible to win for a player unless his opponent wants to lose on purpose.(For example in ZvP when the Zerg has 5 bases, 200/200 Broodlord/Infestor army and his Protoss enemy has 50 supply and no mining and just a few Stalkers. I know that´s very specific but you get the idea.)
Some people say it´s disrespectful towards the players but I have to disagree here because the caster is just stating facts. Just look at soccer commentators, let´s say team A leads 10-0 versus Team B and there´s only one minute left to play. No one would say that Team B might have a chance to win because it´s almost physically impossible. The same thing applies to Starcraft as well, there´s a point when a game is clearly over and it´s obvious who´s gonna win. There´s no need to tell something else in these situations.
I feel the proper way for casters to address such a situation is to mention the clearly-about to lose player's mindset when that player is faced with that situation. It seems more appropriate to discuss how a player might be trying to recollect his thoughts or figure what went wrong in the game and how it can be fixed in the next game than for a caster to attempt to instill needless drama in a game that is decidedly over.
If you consider the nature of a Starcraft game, the players themselves have the right to gg or surrender from a match, while a game like soccer, there is a game clock which ends the game by itself. Obviously Starcraft still has the ability to end the game through the actual mechanics of the game when a player completely destroys all of the opposing players, but such scenarios are rare and when a player is not gg-ing from a game where he is clearly going to be defeated, casters should attempt to enlighten viewers about why he would do such a thing instead of just leaving the game. A player might not be aware of the situation he's in yet to the viewers it is obvious that he is going to lose.
To sum it up, in such situations mentioned in the quote, casters should talk about: -losing player's mentality -ways for losing player to remedy the problem he is currently facing -player's awareness of the situation he is in
I think insight in casters are the most important. At a DreamHack event where Thorzain played right before he joined EG, DeMusliM was awhere of his style of play and casted the game with audio only on his own stream. That was the best casting i've ever heard, it was so interesting and made it so much more enjoyable to watch.
I think that it's really hard to have the same insight for a player as demuslim had for thorzain at that moment but I still find it alot more valueable than casters who just focuses on fights. For a long time I have not watched that many tournaments, Im more trying to watch streams of good people or get their replays.
For those who agree with me should watch DeMusliM, viOlet, Spanishiwa, Snute for example.
PsyStarcraft was a really good caster on his youtube channel a while ago. He was by far my favorite caster. If anyone wants to get into casting you should analys his casting and take away all the bad words that he uses.
Pandii - Rets girlfriend seems to be really good aswell. I saw her at a MoW tournament. It seems like she got alot of insight and enjoys the game alot so it's always nice to hear.
I'd guess not reading these threads would be key. The problem is you're trying to write a list for "What's the best colour?" and getting 9000 different replies with everyone explaining what they like best. That isn't helpful. Unless there are real metrics judging what people to react positively to, then you just end up with another useless thread.
Edit: What's worse is "Well in this event I liked red but I usually like blue." or "sometimes colours do this thing at the end of the game where they get dull and I really don't like that."
This thread was actually made to bash Wolf and otherwise serve as a platform for the OP's biased opinions, right? :/
These threads are silly because noone will ever agree, and people either passionately love or hate a specific caster. Truth is that there are a million small things that make casters different, not just huge overarching general ideas such as insight or charisma, at least so it seems to me. I think if you talk about casters, there's only one thing to say, although it may seem like a lazy idiom to some: "There's no accounting for taste." I find that this is largely true when it comes to which casters people like, and which players people root for.
Issues can only be found if a majority of people dislike a specific caster I think, but that's only really the case with Moletrap and perhaps a large amount of lesser known casters who are lesser known for a reason.
On September 05 2012 00:18 Kasaraki wrote: This thread was actually made to bash Wolf and otherwise serve as a platform for the OP's biased opinions, right? :/
These threads are silly because noone will ever agree, and people either passionately love or hate a specific caster. Truth is that there are a million small things that make casters different, not just huge overarching general ideas such as insight or charisma, at least so it seems to me. I think if you talk about casters, there's only one thing to say, although it may seem like a lazy idiom to some: "There's no accounting for taste." I find that this is largely true when it comes to which casters people like, and which players people root for.
Issues can only be found if a majority of people dislike a specific caster I think, but that's only really the case with Moletrap and perhaps a large amount of lesser known casters who are lesser known for a reason.
Saying that the majority of people dislike Moletrap is at best a completely made up number yanked from thine own ass.
On September 05 2012 00:18 Kasaraki wrote: This thread was actually made to bash Wolf and otherwise serve as a platform for the OP's biased opinions, right? :/
These threads are silly because noone will ever agree, and people either passionately love or hate a specific caster. Truth is that there are a million small things that make casters different, not just huge overarching general ideas such as insight or charisma, at least so it seems to me. I think if you talk about casters, there's only one thing to say, although it may seem like a lazy idiom to some: "There's no accounting for taste." I find that this is largely true when it comes to which casters people like, and which players people root for.
Issues can only be found if a majority of people dislike a specific caster I think, but that's only really the case with Moletrap and perhaps a large amount of lesser known casters who are lesser known for a reason.
Saying that the majority of people dislike Moletrap is at best a completely made up number yanked from thine own ass.
On September 04 2012 05:36 ref4 wrote: Artosis carries the Tastosis casting gig, without him Tastless is helpless. Wolf on the other hand, has shown that he is quite capable of casting alone, he has great insight into the game and can be quite hilarious at times, thus I think Wolf >> Tastless, get your facts straight OP.
subtle Wolf bash thread is subtle.
And oh yeah don't ever put HD and "caster" together in the same thread/post/sentence please.
If anything casters NEED to stop prematurely saying GG's just focus on what is going on in the game, make it exciting, I hate, hate "so, um, gas going down here..."
You must have never seen tasteless and his GOM videos...
Nick did fine on his own. Keep in mind that was a long time ago, sure they still have feeds of him covering the KeSPA matches too with that other guy as well, but you always have to be flexing your muscles in order to keep up. In casting it's no different when you want to drop the knowledge bombs. That's why you see guys like Apollo doing so well. He's actively playing the game at the same time for awarenesss.
For guys who want to go into stats and heavy analysis to explain what the viewers see. It's mandatory to keep up with the game.
Oh yeah as for the premature, "Oh well this game is done." Couldn't agree more, I don't know why the West has adopted to this kind of system, but I guess it goes back to us being far more blunt than the Korean casting teams as well.
Instead of building up to crescendo we get it over with right away.
On September 05 2012 00:07 Chill wrote: I'd guess not reading these threads would be key. The problem is you're trying to write a list for "What's the best colour?" and getting 9000 different replies with everyone explaining what they like best. That isn't helpful. Unless there are real metrics judging what people to react positively to, then you just end up with another useless thread.
Edit: What's worse is "Well in this event I liked red but I usually like blue." or "sometimes colours do this thing at the end of the game where they get dull and I really don't like that."
Practice, lots and lots of practice. And having your own special style, like Warlion... anyone know what happened to Warlion? His casting was awesome, he was an idiot but awesome. http://www.youtube.com/user/WarlionProductions/videos
I feel im in the minority, but i currently feel like casters right now analyze things TOO much. I mostly watch games of the race i play, so when a caster anaylzes things, they're just reiterating what I already know. Sometimes Artosis does his job TOO well, which is kind of a ridiculous thing to say, but sometimes he'll call a BO win within the first 3 minutes of the game, and sure enough that's what ends up happening. It just sucks the excitement out of it. However, don't get me wrong; Artosis is amazing. That's just a personal nitpick of mine.
So i guess charisma is most important. Wolf/khaldor is probably my favorite duo right now. They make games so exciting, and they really make you wanna take a build you just saw and try it for yourself.
Well one thing is for sure. I hate the Khaldor and Wolf combo. Both their voices are annoying. I can handle when Khaldor is casting with someone else and Wolf is casting with someone else. But I cant stand the 2 of them togeather, their annoying voices combined make me want to kill myself. I also dont think they are the best pair you can make.
I think knowing the meta game is probabbly the best you can do. Next I would say is Play by Play and then its carisma.
On September 05 2012 00:07 Chill wrote: I'd guess not reading these threads would be key. The problem is you're trying to write a list for "What's the best colour?" and getting 9000 different replies with everyone explaining what they like best. That isn't helpful. Unless there are real metrics judging what people to react positively to, then you just end up with another useless thread.
Edit: What's worse is "Well in this event I liked red but I usually like blue." or "sometimes colours do this thing at the end of the game where they get dull and I really don't like that."
The real problems is that he (the op) tries to use faulty logic to justify his motivation One example would be using "not producing independent content for the community" as a criterion of exclusion for being a "community guy" in Wolf's case, and claiming that Tasteless is a "community guy" even though the same criterion would apply to him as well. That is as clean a contradiction as you can get.
In my opinion, there is a misconception in the whole "ideal caster" debate. People seem to think that only play-by-play casters are exciting and that being analytical means that you go into a hardcore analysis which will bore the majority of the viewers who are not die-hard fans (plus vice versa obviously), while there is nothing that speaks against having both.
tl;dr: my ideal caster is someone whose train of thoughts are interesting to follow (e.g. the players at hsc) and whose articulation is exciting to follow (e.g. tb),
All of those values great to have, but in my humble opinion, game knowledge is by far the best quality you can possess.
I value casters who have played competitively; who have been there and done it. e.g. Day9 compared to Husky, and etc. Artosis is the highest pinnacle of SC knowledge. He really knows his game. Even though you will find bias in every caster he tries to keep it professional.
+1 props for the old-school BW competitors. Mainly because that game was much harder to play compared to what Sc2 is now. While APM is still important, its less valuable in Sc2 (because of automation) than it was in BW.
On September 05 2012 00:18 Kasaraki wrote: This thread was actually made to bash Wolf and otherwise serve as a platform for the OP's biased opinions, right? :/
These threads are silly because noone will ever agree, and people either passionately love or hate a specific caster. Truth is that there are a million small things that make casters different, not just huge overarching general ideas such as insight or charisma, at least so it seems to me. I think if you talk about casters, there's only one thing to say, although it may seem like a lazy idiom to some: "There's no accounting for taste." I find that this is largely true when it comes to which casters people like, and which players people root for.
Issues can only be found if a majority of people dislike a specific caster I think, but that's only really the case with Moletrap and perhaps a large amount of lesser known casters who are lesser known for a reason.
Saying that the majority of people dislike Moletrap is at best a completely made up number yanked from thine own ass.
Ability to be engaging during downtime Ability to make matches feel important Good self-image, grooming and branding Endurance and preperation for long events Unique insight and game sense Authentic pesonality Tonal control and inflection during key moments
On September 05 2012 01:11 PauseBreak wrote: I voted for "Other"
All of those values great to have, but in my humble opinion, game knowledge is by far the best quality you can possess.
I value casters who have played competitively; who have been there and done it. e.g. Day9 compared to Husky, and etc. Artosis is the highest pinnacle of SC knowledge. He really knows his game. Even though you will find bias in every caster he tries to keep it professional.
+1 props for the old-school BW competitors. Mainly because that game was much harder to play compared to what Sc2 is now. While APM is still important, its less valuable in Sc2 (because of automation) than it was in BW.
Dono bout that, look at Nestea right now, he is struggling to keep up because of his bad mechanics.
Dono bout that, look at Nestea right now, he is struggling to keep up because of his bad mechanics.
I wouldn't say that mechanics are automated per say, but in BW you weren't able to rally workers to minerals/gas and have them start working. You could lead an scv to minerals but couldn't make him mine. =\
On September 05 2012 00:18 Kasaraki wrote: This thread was actually made to bash Wolf and otherwise serve as a platform for the OP's biased opinions, right? :/
These threads are silly because noone will ever agree, and people either passionately love or hate a specific caster. Truth is that there are a million small things that make casters different, not just huge overarching general ideas such as insight or charisma, at least so it seems to me. I think if you talk about casters, there's only one thing to say, although it may seem like a lazy idiom to some: "There's no accounting for taste." I find that this is largely true when it comes to which casters people like, and which players people root for.
Issues can only be found if a majority of people dislike a specific caster I think, but that's only really the case with Moletrap and perhaps a large amount of lesser known casters who are lesser known for a reason.
Saying that the majority of people dislike Moletrap is at best a completely made up number yanked from thine own ass.
On September 05 2012 00:18 Kasaraki wrote: This thread was actually made to bash Wolf and otherwise serve as a platform for the OP's biased opinions, right? :/
These threads are silly because noone will ever agree, and people either passionately love or hate a specific caster. Truth is that there are a million small things that make casters different, not just huge overarching general ideas such as insight or charisma, at least so it seems to me. I think if you talk about casters, there's only one thing to say, although it may seem like a lazy idiom to some: "There's no accounting for taste." I find that this is largely true when it comes to which casters people like, and which players people root for.
Issues can only be found if a majority of people dislike a specific caster I think, but that's only really the case with Moletrap and perhaps a large amount of lesser known casters who are lesser known for a reason.
Saying that the majority of people dislike Moletrap is at best a completely made up number yanked from thine own ass.
Back on subject, I think there should be a minimum caster skill level enforced. There is simply no reason to listen to people who don't understand the game they are casting. With the popularity of Starcraft 2, I'm sure there would be no end of master level players interested in getting a shot at casting. Also, if they are masters level, you know they are committed, dedicated folks who understand how to learn and apply themselves; in short, even if they had no experience, given a chance I believe they would learn how to cast very aptly.
I am a humble diamond player and even to me, it is painfully obvious that some casters don't know, or don't know that they don't know, this game intimately enough to be voices of the community at large. My personal favourite casters are Day9 and Artosis, listening to them I am aware that they understand this game to a very deep and subtle level, through their ability to dissect builds, extrapolate on tactics, techniques and theory and through their situational awareness. It is a pleasure to listen to them both as a viewer (as it's entertaining) and as a player (because I actually learn things from how they approach the game). Unfortunately there are some casters that I mute, because they provide nothing but a distraction.
I believe this problem can be corrected by the companies and businesses that hire casters by taking some risks and trying out some new casters. They need to understand that casters play an important role within this community, as they are often the first impression for new viewers and players and also have the opportunity to disseminate valuable information to more experienced players. It may take some effort, but there is so much talent out there it would seem to be an effort that is guaranteed to pay-off. Also, having a solid caster is a huge asset for these companies, as a solid caster builds a fan-base and provides their company with regular viewership. A caster with little knowledge may be able to fake their way through a few games, but exposed for long enough to the community it is impossible to hide who know this game and who doesn't and ultimately, a bad caster will drive away viewership.
I watch to learn about sc2, let the game and players entertain me.
Game knowledge and insight is what does it for me. That's why Artosis holds a place in my heart.
I can agree with Wolf to some extent. He seemed much like doa in the sense that they wouldn't work together well, always jabs or inside comments about stuff. I won't blame either of them, but the community definitely was too harsh on Moletrap.
It seems to me charisma is what is most valued by people hiring castors though. Its evident a lot of the castors aren't exceptional with in-depth game knowledge, and analysis. If you aren't annoying, sound and look half decent, and know enough to not sound like a newb you can pretty much get by.
a good caster knows whats relevant and whats not. too many times you hear a caster rambling about something completely unimportant during the game. when a caster is on a ramble about a (completely) hypothetical meta-game thought process when a player is about to win or lose based on a slew of different factors. dont hyperfocus on the psychological decision of a minute factor that occurred two minutes ago into a game when there are more relevant factors and more key linch pins dictating the flow of the game.
also, this may be more of a personal pet peeve. but i CANNOT stand when casters rely on certain filler words that they will constantly use in their casting. Every time Catspajamas says "At the moment", "So much damage" and "So", god kills a kitten. PLEASE LEARN TO ALTER YOUR SENTENCE STRUCTURES AND CORNERSTONE WORDS
I'd like to display a very good example that most of /r/starcraft had the chance to see and that is the italian caster Vasacast from last weekend's WCS Europe.
This cast displays that a caster can use nothing but his voice and passion for what's actually going on in the game and in turn make the viewer excited while barely understanding a thing he says.
Most important is knowledge of the game. Tons and tons of time even pro casters - those you listed talk nonsense and call wrong things and read game badly. This to me is absolutely unacceptable and it actually makes me not watch starcraft even though i love the game (i end up with mute sounds and mp3s most of time). So far only casting that has been good is the one on HSC side stream where pros who dont play cast. Other than that not much.
I can see this style of casting be appealing for bronzies/non players but for someone who actually has slight clue about the game is current casting unacceptable.
Also sometimes Idra/Demulsim/Nony/ other pros stream their casting on PRO events wich is quite cool.
Edit: what do i mean by this is as day9 said he/casters cant cast with 100% analysis and game insight as nobody would watch it. They have to keep saying random stuff and not actually give reasons why something is happening because nobody would understand it maybe the 2%.
For me, it's all about charisma and insight. I want the caster to know what he's talking about and I want him to get into the game. It helps the viewer get more into it when the caster gets excited or shows crazy emotion,
I feel like esports has changed so much that it has become about the money, and maybe some casters drift off of giving information and maybe stop playing. I feel there has been a loss of passion for the game from many casters (and players) as of late. When we saw Grubby casting, I felt like he had more insight into all the match-ups, especially in his PvX casting, and he articulated to the audience well, while keeping the match exciting. I find he still has the passion for competetive gaming, that some casters have lost. A good caster needs more knowledge than charisma, but both are required to strengthen the casting skills.
I personally favor analytical casters than play by play casters but that doesnt matter....you can still be a great caster as a play by play caster...the issues I have with casters that leaves a bad taste are
Wrong information....there's a difference between 10p and 14p. I don't know how some casters can't see the difference
Degrading the players....generally the players are higher level than the casters so he generally knows more especially when hes executing his own build
Faking the excitement...its pretty to tell when casters are taking excitement and I get that at an event your job is to hype it up but you shouldn't have to fake it...casters should be passionate about what they do so when casting an event you shouldn't have to fake it
I too feel like a lot of casters recently at least are slightly lacking in some of their game knowledge, which is key in my opinion. I find myself talking or thinking to myself about things that I am picking up on way quicker than the casters or things that aren't being picked up at all. I think Apollo is a very good caster, however, there were several instances this weekend when I noticed that an upgrade was being missed for a player, or what seemed to be key parts of the game were being forgotten by casters for a long period of time.
Tastosis makes up the best caster duo but not by a landslide, however, I've seen Artosis cast some games without Tasteless and still be very, very good. I haven't seen that much of Wolf or Khaldor, but I think Khaldor get way too much hate in situations from the community. Day9 has done a ton in growing North American E-sports, and his casting is solid enough for me to be quite fond of him. He understands a ton about the game, more than most casters, but sometimes he doesn't have quite the excitement factor that other casters who maybe know less can do.
I feel the same way with Tastosis sometimes, I remember watching game 5 between Seed and Symbol from last season's quarters, and they were both so subdued. I was waiting for them to show a ton of excitement for Seed's big comeback in that set, but they never really sounded that exciting.
There is about a 70/30 balance for me when it comes to game knowledge/excitement. There has to be some exciting quality in the caster, but having game knowledge is still much better.
The best caster are great players. That's why Artosis was a better caster when he played more. Also Grubby and Incontrol are great casters because they actually understand the game. But I like Catspajamas just because he has a professional radio voice coming form a real radio background.
There has to be two casters. One who is good at analyzing the game and one who brings energy and who can talk really fast when he needs to in order to make it excitement. People focus way to much on the analyzing part, don't get me wrong, it's important, but people just ignore the actuall casting and just want analysis.
EPT
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He is one of the best imo!
. But how would you rank the current casters in terms of playing skill?
