EPTAlso, Flash >> All. But I'm Flash fanboy so I just had to say that ^^
Lessons from OSL Kespa vs GOM competition - Page 8
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
KentHenry
United States260 Posts
Also, Flash >> All. But I'm Flash fanboy so I just had to say that ^^ | ||
|
bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 29 2012 07:53 rysecake wrote: But how much of that 600 apm is actually useful? Flash wasn't exactly the fastest player but his actions counted when it mattered. If you use eapm as a measure of useful actions per minute then drg has a similar count to jaedong. | ||
|
rysecake
United States2632 Posts
Yes and no. | ||
|
mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On August 29 2012 06:49 vesicular wrote: Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do. It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general. Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition. Actually the guy who replied to me did say it was a black and white case. That was my point of contention with him. I hate the whole BW mechanics>ESF comments because that implies that it is true for everyone. Some BW players don't have crazy mechanics and some ESF do. BW will have more top end mechanical players obviously but that doesn't ensure success either. I just dislike arguments like what are being made far too often. | ||
|
TommyP
United States6231 Posts
I wouldnt say DRG won off the knowledge of the game, JangBi just made a lot of mistakes. | ||
|
TommyP
United States6231 Posts
| ||
|
emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques. The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride. The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW. | ||
|
jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out. In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques. The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride. The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW. kespa, ogn at least is definitely interested in the foreign scene, only reason why they didnt before was because there was no large enough fanbase to bother and gretech took advantage of that small fanbase to acquire market share. i dont think kespa would be opposed to having outside teams to compete in proleague though this is optimistic view but i'm sure they wont be oppose to any foreigners play in their league, let it be individuals joining osl through qualifier or through courage or requiring to join one of kespa team. but i do agree that kespa would need to be reorganized if they want to play nice with esf, ie. kespa should longer be composed of those 8(7) teams or atleast be willing to work with nonkespa teams for better growth of sc2. if they refuse to work with esf in the future if/when kespa players become dominant, they will get a much bigger shitstorm than ever before in comparison. | ||
|
Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
On August 29 2012 02:11 Integra wrote: why isn't this in the blog section? I share these same sentiments. | ||
|
ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
| ||
|
mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:38 jinorazi wrote: kespa, ogn at least is definitely interested in the foreign scene, only reason why they didnt before was because there was no large enough fanbase to bother and gretech took advantage of that small fanbase to acquire market share. i dont think kespa would be opposed to having outside teams to compete in proleague though this is optimistic view but i'm sure they wont be oppose to any foreigners play in their league, let it be individuals joining osl through qualifier or through courage or requiring to join one of kespa team. but i do agree that kespa would need to be reorganized if they want to play nice with esf, ie. kespa should longer be composed of those 8(7) teams or atleast be willing to work with nonkespa teams for better growth of sc2. if they refuse to work with esf in the future if/when kespa players become dominant, they will get a much bigger shitstorm than ever before in comparison. They havnt shown interest comparable to Gom though. They never would have not gone to GSL if they were for one. Gom has catered to us and has a subscription model because foreigners are a big part of their revenue.. does anyone really think that OGN will make enough off of twitch advertisement revenue when lots of people have popup blockers to justify investing in our entertainment or going out of their way for foreign players etc? | ||
|
Cink
United States93 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: In the future, the KeSPA players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Just to play the contrarian I'd like to point out that flash burst onto a scene dominated by protoss players with a TvP build that became the staple of every terran's arsenal for quite some time. Since his rise to the top he has consistently created new successful builds of varying style. Yes the game was figured out to a certain degree, but even at the time of its last proleague breath there will still be new play in bw. In short, a balanced unchanged game and vast play styles are not mutually exclusive. As far as the current transition is concerned, yes there is an established metagame that the KeSPA players have inherited. This does not mean they are not creating builds for this metagame. If by "builds" you are referring to common openings, that is just how a professional scene works, there will always be a standard solid opening 90% of players utilize at some point or another. Well-structured planned timing-attacks and unorthodox openings are generally created at a far more frequent rate than the standard opening in a match-up. Once a timing-attack has been figured out you need a new one, but that doesn't make your opening obsolete, just your follow-up/plan. The KeSPA players are having to forge their own way in the current metagame just as the eSF players are. Both are constantly devising new strategies that push the metagame forward. It's a continuous change, thus you can't really "ride the backs of people" for very long unless you want to always be one step behind. In conclusion the S-class KeSPA players everyone is drooling over do not survive solely on their mechanics, which seems to be a common misconception among the portion of this community unfamiliar with them. They work closely with their teammates to create new strategies that will catch their opponents off guard, otherwise the game would become a stale mechanics fest, which I imagine would be met with a less than favorable fan-reception. | ||
|
madgoat33
United States14 Posts
| ||
|
Al Bundy
7257 Posts
| ||
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
Besides that, the games were pretty bland, San didn't punish greedy Flash, and Nestea played as badly as he did against Byun in the quarterfinals of last season. People think too extreme one way or another. Players like Fantasy, Flash, etc. will probably become some of the best in SC2. Some others from Brood War will just suck and never get the hang of it. | ||
|
jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:52 mrtomjones wrote: They havnt shown interest comparable to Gom though. They never would have not gone to GSL if they were for one. Gom has catered to us and has a subscription model because foreigners are a big part of their revenue.. does anyone really think that OGN will make enough off of twitch advertisement revenue when lots of people have popup blockers to justify investing in our entertainment or going out of their way for foreign players etc? ogn just started getting into sc2. they didnt do sc2 before now, they had no reason to grow bw market outside korea. ogn will have to come up with some revenue generator for foreigners, maybe something like gomtv does, though i'd not prefer it. i enjoyed ogn for years without having to pay a dime, it'll be unfortunate :/ maybe they should just stick to korea and do korean casts only :3 gomtv is online streaming service, ogn is korean tv station, just to clarify. you know, its like saying how come showtime dont care about korea. (maybe they do, but just saying) | ||
|
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
actually that's an understatement lol, they're fuckin amazing for only about 4 months of play lmao | ||
|
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW. why does crap like this get posted over and over again? foreign scene demoted itself to little league status in bw because no one was willing to put in the hours in korea past 2001-2. | ||
|
Talack
Canada2742 Posts
| ||
|
Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
Now was I able to transfer my skills across to a game of the same genre? Yes and no. Yes I was slightly ahead of the new kids on the block playing their first FPS in terms of reflex wise and faster learning. Also I was able to read my opponents movements better as well as be a lot more unpredictable due to my past experiences. But at the same time, there was a huge learning curve for the different weapons, maps and of course a whole bunch of new opponents I had never faced before. Now this may not be the most accurate analogy due to the fact that this was 2 completely different titles, with the only thing in common being that they are of the same genre, however I believe the same concept applies to the KeSPA pros switching over to an extent. Yes they will learn faster, yes some may become some of the best in the world, but the fastest way for them to become the best is to play, play, play. And for that they need to participate in as many tournaments as possible because this will give them the necessary experience and confidence, coming into this new game. | ||
| ||
