I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
- What we see now does not mean anything. The game is way too young in the hands of the KeSPA players. We should see how things have developed until next year imo.
My conclusion would be that you cannot draw conclusion from such a small sample of games. We should wait for a year or so of competition until we start to evaluate. Let's just wait and see what happens....
1. Fantasy's micro in protecting his marines + sniping banelings was impressive. 2. To me some are on the same level already (Roro, Effort, Jaedong, Fantasy, By.sun, CJhero), but they lack some general gamesense sometimes. 3. Flash didn't impress me that much either, he seems like macro hard and try to overpower the opponent with pure macro. Didn't see any harass. But ill give him some time, he is a practice beast.
Don't know why you say Fantasy's micro is the best you have seen. I have seen better than that many times from MKP,Taeja,Mvp. I didn't see how Ty outclassed Parting in any area too. Parting just defended his drop easily.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
1) Duh. They weren't rumors, everyone knew BW players have much better mechanics.
4) "Flash is nothing special" ........ what? Also, in his interview he just said he is practicing SC2 full time now. Prepare yourselves.
All but your comment on Flash seems reasonable. Based on his short SC2 career, and this particular game, you judge that he is nothing special? Of course he is something very special. He is known as the Ultimate Weapon in BW for a reason. People might have been wrong in their prediction that he will dominate the fastest, but I can guarantee you, he will be one of the very best in the near future.
Flash is god tier in BW cause of his game sense, not because of his mechanics or whatever. players like Baby has always had fantastic mechanics and multitasking, while Flash is someone who just knows what you're doing and will destroy you cause he knows way too well what's going on in the game. Obviously it's going to take time for him to be impressive in a new game, and he even mentions that in an interview about how he needs a year or two to be god tier.
Saying stuff like "THIS IS EVIDENCE SC1 SKILLS DONT TRANSLATE IMMEDIATELY TO SC2" is pretty silly really. Give it time instead of being like "Oh he's nothing special" ~_~;
4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill.
Let' s just say he is the Best BW player and the last Bonjwa (at the momment Fantasy is better, but he was the best from late 2008-2011) He won a WCG, 3 OSLs, 3 MSLs and a couple of BW GSLs (which I think were underrated)
He is special because he just practices more. If other BW players practice 12 hours he practices 14. A lot of BW pros are saying that he constantly practices for 14 hours a day. Once his practice kicks in he will be the best once again (if he works as hard as he did in BW)
and
Can somebody give me link to the game with Fantasy marines (It's a thing now!)
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
1. So true. 2. KESPA players are not ahead, but they're not behind. Both do not have an equal chance to improve only the KESPA players do. The ESF/GOM/Foreign players had 2 years, and the KESPA players caught up and surpassed their micro/macro/multitasking in a new game in what 4 serious months of practice. The only thing they're missing are some subtleties about how units work against one another (armored / light ect). The ESF/GOM/Foreign players were second rate before and they will be now, not for any one given reason, but they won't "improve." Meanwhile 3. Experience counts, but for how long? If they had trouble this soon, how long before they can't manage a single win in a BO7? 4. Flash God -> Wrist/Shoulder problems -> Surgery -> New Game -> Physical Therapy -> Metal replacement arm -> 10 more golds 5. Sure
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
4) "Flash is nothing special" ........ what? Also, in his interview he just said he is practicing SC2 full time now. Prepare yourselves.
Exactly. I'm 100% sure that ESF players don't practice 14 hours a day maybe 8
There is clear flaws in your arguement, saying that SC1 players are just overall better, sure, maybe Fantasy will be have 5 GSL titles by the end of 2013.
BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently.
And you draw this out of 1 game with NesTea and Fantasy, while we can look at some other games from other pros, let's take MarineKing, he played awful and lost 2-0 to Trimaster, now does this mean that Trimaster has become a top Code S guy/MLG contender?
No, he went onto get crushed by other players straight afterwards.
And the majority of the Kespa players who did well in WCG are the fairly unknown, none of the really big names have yet to show their skill in SC2, sure Flash won today, and his looked good, but today was his first time where he went up against a SC2 player and won ( I didn't see the game).
And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
2. KESPA players are not ahead, but they're not behind. Both do not have an equal chance to improve only the KESPA players do. The ESF/GOM/Foreign players had 2 years, and the KESPA players caught up and surpassed their micro/macro/multitasking in a new game in what 4 serious months of practice. The only thing they're missing are some subtleties about how units work against one another (armored / light ect). The ESF/GOM/Foreign players were second rate before and they will be now, not for any one given reason, but they won't "improve." Meanwhile
2. Well they still have to practice BW at least 20% of the time.
BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently.
The thing people don't seem to understand is that it's not the skill the player acquired from BW that makes him special it's the practice and KESPA players simply have a better practice enviroment.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
1) Duh. They weren't rumors, everyone knew BW players have much better mechanics.
4) "Flash is nothing special" ........ what? Also, in his interview he just said he is practicing SC2 full time now. Prepare yourselves.
5) Yes, the beta phase is over.
Why the harsh tone? I was neutral in all this and you come out frothing in the mouth like that? Specific replies: 1. They were rumors to me and to others like me who haven't watched a single sc1 game in my life and don't know who these guys are. 4. Even you will admit that based on that game there was nothing special about him at all. I am not saying that he has no skills. I even recognize his sc1 reputation. I just exemplified him to conclude that the skill transfer is not automatic. And read #2 and 5. I do not assume this to be their final skill level, and even I am excited at the eventual increase in talent in the competition in general.
Great mechanic is not something exclusive to Kespa players. Imo there could be players with great mechanic from both sides. There're already many SC2 pros who have great mechanic. DRG and MKP for example.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
Flash just has to practice TvP for the rest of the month, he has no other obligations. He has had plenty of time to transition to SC2, he played Brood War longer than most, but he was rumored to have been spending all his time on SC2 anyway. If Flash really is as good as everyone says he is, then his convincing win over San does seem meaningful. Yes, he played passively, but he still won and since when is something other than winning or losing relevant? We have not yet seen the full extent of Flash's gameplay, we now only know that he knows how to win, and for a player like Flash that might be all that's necessary.
Maybe I should start watching Starcraft again Because looks like everyone is hype that finally we are getting decents games in kespa Can anybody give the link of Fantasy epic marine micro plzz?
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
Fantasy's macro didn't slip, he has said he sometimes lets minerals build up on purpose, so he can build more of the units he wants.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
To be fair from the last i saw Nestea play which was in the IPL TAC he has been getting out multitask for a while. He likes to run his army in one hotkey. Nestea was a great player because of his game sense not multitasking so i wouldnt read too much into it.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
baby has like top 3 multitasking. of course he will out multitask you if he knows what he's doing.
Baby's play was pretty terrible. Other than some nice Medivac harass, it was nothing spectacular.
His macro was subpar. Getting supply blocked at 110 and then proceed to be stuck on an 18 minute 2 base bio. Felt like I was watching GSL Open Season 3 all over again.
well if kespa players take over it is mostly due to their training, if gsl player will fall behind one thing will be cut. Going to international events. You notice that someone that attends multiple events falls off, with just a really small amount of players able to do it and keep their level (imagine if they would only train lol). If against all odds, kespa players would also enter international events (more then only a few) the training thing would be evened out a little. I have seen a few cute moves by kespa players, nothing impressive, i found it rather impressive that this isn't standard in pro level. But the rule seems to be, doesn't have to be done if no one else does it. At the end i would put the chances higher into korea sheltering itself away in the competition and the international scene will lose the korean fan boy viewers. But from what i saw is that we might end up seeing more micro. (pulling medivacs away when dropping a protoss that is tying to snipe the medivac. bringing stalkers in the full marine range, easy to see easy to do)
It's also interesting how differently the kespa players evolve, depending how much help they get from the current sc2 players. And funny when they are confronted with something they didn't knew.
Can't wait though till the first mass fungaled group of marines will be completly saved due to medivac cloud kiting ... kidding.
Overall they have proven that they are pros, nothing special. Would have actually counted them out if they couldn't win Bo1s against ESF players after such a long preparation time. At the end Fantasy will win everything anyway ! ... But MvP too they will have eternal draws in the finals.
way to small of games atm to compare, and I could say from these games that KESPA players want to do early damage to expand or just outright win the game.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
baby has like top 3 multitasking. of course he will out multitask you if he knows what he's doing.
I am talking about that game between Baby and Parting. I don't see how Baby out multitasked Parting. Could you give me examples?
Well, Flash did not not show anything that would blow your mind. We just have to wait and see can he bring something new and flashy to the table. I hope that he does!
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
Fantasy's macro didn't slip, he has said he sometimes lets minerals build up on purpose, so he can build more of the units he wants.
lol, still trolling? Banking only makes sense if you actually have enough production to spend your bank quickly.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
1) Duh. They weren't rumors, everyone knew BW players have much better mechanics.
4) "Flash is nothing special" ........ what? Also, in his interview he just said he is practicing SC2 full time now. Prepare yourselves.
5) Yes, the beta phase is over.
4. Even you will admit that based on that game there was nothing special about him at all. I am not saying that he has no skills. I even recognize his sc1 reputation. I just exemplified him to conclude that the skill transfer is not automatic. And read #2 and 5. I do not assume this to be their final skill level, and even I am excited at the eventual increase in talent in the competition in general. By the way, Happy birthday! :D
As I've said I don't believe Flash is 'talented' he just works a lot harder than everybody else and also knows how to practice correctly.
Ohh and he is smart that helps to especially for understanding how the game works.
Parting got out-micro'ed and out-multitask'ed? I guess I didn't watch the same game as you then.
Nestea got rolled, and San's play was pretty bland. Yeah in turn, some Kespa players will become the best in the world but I still think ESF players of high caliber have a huge edge over Kespa players.
Fantasy's micro was good, but not "the best ever" good... I've seen MKP, MMA, MVP and others do much more impressive things with their marines. I mean, all Fantasy did was stutter steping his marines back till the banes catch up and then load them into medivacs. Also I don't agree that Parting was outclassed. Quite the opposite. He had the perfect answer to all of the TY's attacks, every time knew how to split his army perfectly, never missed a forcefield etc, etc. I didn't see him struggle in any part of the game.
Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
I would also wanna add that he is like the hardet working progamer and he also have alot of great help from KT Rolster's coaching staff aswell on his side.
On August 29 2012 02:13 FeyFey wrote: well if kespa players take over it is mostly due to their training, if gsl player will fall behind one thing will be cut. Going to international events. You notice that someone that attends multiple events falls off, with just a really small amount of players able to do it and keep their level (imagine if they would only train lol). If against all odds, kespa players would also enter international events (more then only a few) the training thing would be evened out a little. I have seen a few cute moves by kespa players, nothing impressive, i found it rather impressive that this isn't standard in pro level. But the rule seems to be, doesn't have to be done if no one else does it. At the end i would put the chances higher into korea sheltering itself away in the competition and the international scene will lose the korean fan boy viewers. But from what i saw is that we might end up seeing more micro. (pulling medivacs away when dropping a protoss that is tying to snipe the medivac. bringing stalkers in the full marine range, easy to see easy to do)
It's also interesting how differently the kespa players evolve, depending how much help they get from the current sc2 players. And funny when they are confronted with something they didn't knew.
Can't wait though till the first mass fungaled group of marines will be completly saved due to medivac cloud kiting ... kidding.
Overall they have proven that they are pros, nothing special. Would have actually counted them out if they couldn't win Bo1s against ESF players after such a long preparation time. At the end Fantasy will win everything anyway ! ... But MvP too they will have eternal draws in the finals.
Nothing special? The record between Kespa and ESF is something like 18-13 in WCS Korea and OSL. Who else could have pulled that off in that time frame and while still playing some BW?
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
Parting wasn't out classed in mutli tasking all his opponent did were basic pressure at the front with a drop in the main/natural, the way entombed works well with drops due to spawns, I would not say he was out multi-tasked with something so basic because anyone can do pressure at the front while dropping.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
I'd say Flash was pretty impressive today showing what he can already do with his sc2 macro when not harassed, he basically got 40-50 supply ahead of San just from pure macro. When his BW game sense start kicking in with more knowledge he's gonna be scary.
On August 29 2012 01:58 oneofthem wrote: Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of May 2012
yea, nothing to see here.
What does that have to do with anything? This is extremely off-topic and an idiotic reply. Ironic, considering your post count and what you've implied by noting how long he has been on the site.
On August 29 2012 02:13 FeyFey wrote: well if kespa players take over it is mostly due to their training, if gsl player will fall behind one thing will be cut. Going to international events. You notice that someone that attends multiple events falls off, with just a really small amount of players able to do it and keep their level (imagine if they would only train lol). If against all odds, kespa players would also enter international events (more then only a few) the training thing would be evened out a little. I have seen a few cute moves by kespa players, nothing impressive, i found it rather impressive that this isn't standard in pro level. But the rule seems to be, doesn't have to be done if no one else does it. At the end i would put the chances higher into korea sheltering itself away in the competition and the international scene will lose the korean fan boy viewers. But from what i saw is that we might end up seeing more micro. (pulling medivacs away when dropping a protoss that is tying to snipe the medivac. bringing stalkers in the full marine range, easy to see easy to do)
It's also interesting how differently the kespa players evolve, depending how much help they get from the current sc2 players. And funny when they are confronted with something they didn't knew.
Can't wait though till the first mass fungaled group of marines will be completly saved due to medivac cloud kiting ... kidding.
Overall they have proven that they are pros, nothing special. Would have actually counted them out if they couldn't win Bo1s against ESF players after such a long preparation time. At the end Fantasy will win everything anyway ! ... But MvP too they will have eternal draws in the finals.
Nothing special? The record between Kespa and ESF is something like 18-13 in WCS Korea and OSL. Who else could have pulled that off in that time frame and while still playing some BW?
Have you seen the BW games? I think stars vs KT was all one base play coming from stars...
On August 29 2012 02:26 Darneck wrote: I'd say Flash was pretty impressive today showing what he can already do with his sc2 macro when not harassed, he basically got 40-50 supply ahead of San just from pure macro. When his BW game sense start kicking in with more knowledge he's gonna be scary.
He was 25-30 ahead mainly due to the early third and San playing scared and getting a late 3rd. Yes, his macro was good but it was not a tier above any good terran.
On August 29 2012 02:26 Darneck wrote: I'd say Flash was pretty impressive today showing what he can already do with his sc2 macro when not harassed, he basically got 40-50 supply ahead of San just from pure macro. When his BW game sense start kicking in with more knowledge he's gonna be scary.
He wasn't harassed the whole time, and he double expanded way earlier then san so ye he is going to have a way better economy that way. Its like letting zerg get to 70-80 drones.
I believe that flash is pretty good just by seeing that game, did you see the timing of the upgrades?, the macro advantage in a 2 bases vs 2 bases, he literally kill san with 1a moves and just by macro power. And well san is a pro gamer, oh is possible such a diference?
Yes I agree that strategy wise would be much better to do some drops and make some more kiting but in the end he looks like he was on 3 bases and san on 2, and he doesn't have insta warps ins or stuff like that,.
And milkies said that he isn't even that good at that ...
Just seeing that games I believe that in short time the kespa players with rape the eSF players, I really don't wan't but it seems that the eSF players should practice more as Boxer told them
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
Fantasy's macro didn't slip, he has said he sometimes lets minerals build up on purpose, so he can build more of the units he wants.
lol, still trolling? Banking only makes sense if you actually have enough production to spend your bank quickly.
Or when you haven't decided between higher tech or additional production. Of course you being so new to the scene, you don't know Fantasy much. It just seems to make more sense that he would bank up, if he has stated he likes to do it, rather than his macro slipping that bad.
Why hating on KeSPA players because you don't like KeSPA? It's not like they make management decisions.. I usually like KeSPA players because good mechanics are my favorite thing to watch...
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
Fantasy's macro didn't slip, he has said he sometimes lets minerals build up on purpose, so he can build more of the units he wants.
lol, still trolling? Banking only makes sense if you actually have enough production to spend your bank quickly.
Or when you haven't decided between higher tech or additional production. Of course you being so new to the scene, you don't know Fantasy much. It just seems to make more sense that he would bank up, if he has stated he likes to do it, rather than his macro slipping that bad.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
Nice, so you have seen 2 games out of like 20. Flash expert in the house. ㅋㅋㅋ
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
Nice, so you have seen 2 games out of like 20. Flash expert in the house. ㅋㅋㅋ
Lol, reading comprehension problem? I didn't say I have only watched 2 Flash SC2 games... I said I know it wasn't his first game and just gave an example of another Flash game. Also, have you watch ALL SC2 games to claim he has the best macro and resource management out of all the players?
Again, I agree that Fantasy had great micro and Flash had great macro. Just hard to call it the BEST EVAR. But I guess these forums are like that. That last game that happened was the best TvZ ever or the worst game ever.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
Nice, so you have seen 2 games out of like 20. Flash expert in the house. ㅋㅋㅋ
Lol, reading comprehension problem? I didn't say I have only watched 2 Flash SC2 games... I said I know it wasn't his first game and just gave an example of another Flash game. Also, have you watch ALL SC2 games to claim he has the best macro and resource management out of all the players?
On August 29 2012 01:40 massivez wrote: To soon to jump onto conclusions.
But anyway,
1. Fantasy's micro in protecting his marines + sniping banelings was impressive. 2. To me some are on the same level already (Roro, Effort, Jaedong, Fantasy, By.sun, CJhero), but they lack some general gamesense sometimes. 3. Flash didn't impress me that much either, he seems like macro hard and try to overpower the opponent with pure macro. Didn't see any harass. But ill give him some time, he is a practice beast.
But this who Flash is, what makes him so good is not flashy micro tricks or crazy builds, he just builds more stuff, manages his resoucres better and takes the right decision at the right time more often than everybody else.
On August 29 2012 01:45 Milkis wrote: Flash is god tier in BW cause of his game sense, not because of his mechanics or whatever. players like Baby has always had fantastic mechanics and multitasking, while Flash is someone who just knows what you're doing and will destroy you cause he knows way too well what's going on in the game. Obviously it's going to take time for him to be impressive in a new game, and he even mentions that in an interview about how he needs a year or two to be god tier.
Saying stuff like "THIS IS EVIDENCE SC1 SKILLS DONT TRANSLATE IMMEDIATELY TO SC2" is pretty silly really. Give it time instead of being like "Oh he's nothing special" ~_~;
This. Flash's ability to almost soak in every little piece of information better than a Shamwow in an advertisement + his consistent and unfailing memory of how the game works and what reactions should work to win the game is really only impeded by his lack of time practicing the game. Give it a break - he's a robot, but even copy-pasting that much minute information + earlygame/midgame/lategame/general situational theory into his processor takes a bit of time.
I'd also like to know what the point of this post was, other than to provoke people, since most of the observations listed are not only common sense given about a minute of focused thought, but also have been rehashed over and over and over and over again ad nauseum
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
Nice, so you have seen 2 games out of like 20. Flash expert in the house. ㅋㅋㅋ
Lol, reading comprehension problem? I didn't say I have only watched 2 Flash SC2 games... I said I know it wasn't his first game and just gave an example of another Flash game. Also, have you watch ALL SC2 games to claim he has the best macro and resource management out of all the players?
Yes.
I don't mean just Flash's games. I mean ALL SC2 game by ALL players.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
Nice, so you have seen 2 games out of like 20. Flash expert in the house. ㅋㅋㅋ
Lol, reading comprehension problem? I didn't say I have only watched 2 Flash SC2 games... I said I know it wasn't his first game and just gave an example of another Flash game. Also, have you watch ALL SC2 games to claim he has the best macro and resource management out of all the players?
Yes.
I don't mean just Flash's games. I mean ALL SC2 game by ALL players.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Today was not his first official game of sc2 you know...
Yes, I saw the game vs Kal that took KT out of the playoff picture.
Nice, so you have seen 2 games out of like 20. Flash expert in the house. ㅋㅋㅋ
Lol, reading comprehension problem? I didn't say I have only watched 2 Flash SC2 games... I said I know it wasn't his first game and just gave an example of another Flash game. Also, have you watch ALL SC2 games to claim he has the best macro and resource management out of all the players?
Yes.
I don't mean just Flash's games. I mean ALL SC2 game by ALL players.
I know.
Well, then you must be right. Flash does have the best macro EVAR.
So ... am I the only one that noticed the constant 1k + mineral and 500+ gas that fantasy was floating all the time ?
The micro was impressive but god did his macro suck, it's funny how people are like " OH MY GOD MICRO MURINS SO GOSU FANTASY IMBA " but then you look closely and see that a part from the stellar micro/multitask it was more NesTea that sucked than Fantasy that plaid like MvP or Taeja
On August 29 2012 02:52 GregMandel wrote: So ... am I the only one that noticed the constant 1k + mineral and 500+ gas that fantasy was floating all the time ?
The micro was impressive but god did his macro suck, it's funny how people are like " OH MY GOD MICRO MURINS SO GOSU FANTASY IMBA " but then you look closely and see that a part from the stellar micro/multitask it was more NesTea that sucked than Fantasy that plaid like MvP or Taeja
Macro isn't only about keeping your money low, that's a common misconception.
Yeah he could've built more rax before he started dropping but probably wasn't expecting Nestea to go full foreigner and the drops to as much damage as they did.
I only watched the first game between DRG and Jangbi, and I thought I was watching foreigner tournament. DRG was terrible, but he won because Jangbi was even worse. I did not watch the rest of games. Not sure what happened to Nestea? Was he 2-raxed?
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
lol, not sure how Parting was out micro'ed and multi-tasked. Baby went for a 1 base double front attack that did basically nothing.
And Fantasy's macro slipped while he was dropping. He still played a good game but people are overhyping it a lot.
Fantasy's macro didn't slip, he has said he sometimes lets minerals build up on purpose, so he can build more of the units he wants.
lol, still trolling? Banking only makes sense if you actually have enough production to spend your bank quickly.
Or when you haven't decided between higher tech or additional production. Of course you being so new to the scene, you don't know Fantasy much. It just seems to make more sense that he would bank up, if he has stated he likes to do it, rather than his macro slipping that bad.
What higher tech in TvZ man ? His minerals went high because he had 4 rax but no reactors on them. So instead of 7 marines he was building 4 per cycle. When he realised that, he built 3 additional rax and 1 factory... Yes his macro slipped. IDK why it is so hard to admit. He is still new to the game so it's a normal thing.
Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable.
In that game, nestea's infestors came too late. Fantasy's drops were good but it's easy to look really good when you are just controlling drops against lings and slow banes. If infestors were out that could easily have been 4 lost medivacs.
On August 29 2012 03:24 Darkhoarse wrote: Were these Bo1? That's kind of a terrible format imo and provides potential for shocking results like kespa pros beating Gom pros.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Flash is the master of mind games , most of the time he will predict what the opponent does and counter it . In the words of Jaedong himself in one of his interviews , they asked him what do you like the most in Flash's gameplay and he answered " I like how he sets himself up for the lategame" . The fact that Flash almost never ends up behind in early game build orders in 90 % of his games is why he was the best in BW and will be really good in SC2 . He just needs more time to learn them build orders , but sadly with HOTS coming and balance patching the game every month might slow his progress , but once he learns he will be almost unstoppable .
When Flash was in 6 consecutive finals people here including me were praying for Jaedong or someone else to stop him , but he kept on steamrolling and people blamed Flash as one of the reasons why BW lost popularity and then eventually died out . Eventually he slowed down a bit and JangBi and Fantasy stoped his reign .
Be patient and enjoy the games. Some things to take into consideration the fastest player is not necceseraly the best player. The amount of Data/vods for the gsl players is far larger. The Gameknowledge for the gsl players is bigger since they played more and encountered more. Best of 1 does not always mean that the winner is the stronger overall player. Competition is good for all. And If we are lucky maybe some great builds and strategies will come out of it.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
Really? Nestea never was very fast + he is quite old. Fantasy micro isnt best you've seen, you probably saw only this game.
JangBi vs DRG: Fail game for JangBi on the misclick. Nestea vs Fantasy: Epic drop made possible by epic fail. BaBy vs PartinG: 2010 called, they want their strategy back. Flash vs San: The game that actually showed us most, told us that top KeSPA players can beat mid-tier eSF players, but we knew that already.
Edit: How San made it this far is the greatest mystery of all. Somehow he went through a decent bracket and then caught both Symbol and ByuN derping, all while fail to qualify for Code A 6 seasons in a row.
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable.
Parting dealt with it fine, when terran goes for that kinda strategy ofcourse he cant hold it perfect since he doesnt have the units needed for it, but he dealt with it fine without losing too much, and then just rolled over him
1. NesTea vs Fantasy, there is a timing terran can abuse medivacs and that map is retarded for zerg, not NesTea'S Fault. also PartinG vs BaBy, all he needs to do is force field the ramp as BaBy did not fast expand, antidrop is not the most important, also there is map abuse as same as NesTea vs Fantasy, the force field placements are more crucial. in First game JangBi vs DRG, the guardian shield against zerglings reminded me Trickster =.=
Anyway, entombed valley should be removed from tournament map pool as soon as possible
Flash is extremely special. Considering he only very recently switched to Sc2 the fact that he is able to beat someone who has been a full time pro since the beta in a big tournament already is insane.
On August 29 2012 04:40 Sinensis wrote: Flash is extremely special. Considering he only very recently switched to Sc2 the fact that he is able to beat someone who has been a full time pro since the beta in a big tournament already is insane.
I agree Flash is great and have incredible potential, but beating San is the exact opposite of "insane". San failed to qualify for Code A in 6 straight seasons, which means he haven't been able to claim to be a top 50 player for a year. If you look up "sane" in dictionary, a talented pro-gamer beats someone like San is listed as a definition.
The multitasking of fantasy looked amazing cause nestea did a pisspoor job defending it. If you are talking about multitasking, what about the 2k mins fantasy was floating on? And dont give me the 'fantasy likes saving minerals' bullshit ive heard.]
DRG didnt win with 'slyness'. he just outplayed jangbi on every part of the game. He was winning so badly it almost looked like he was just toying with him.
Flash isnt anything special, sure, but I didnt see anyone claiming he was. Most people where excited about the kespa pros who did well in wcs korea. Everyone wants to see flash do well, but I def dont have the feeling he is being hyped alot atm.
On August 29 2012 04:46 []Phase[] wrote: heh didnt agree with anything really.
The multitasking of fantasy looked amazing cause nestea did a pisspoor job defending it. If you are talking about multitasking, what about the 2k mins fantasy was floating on? And dont give me the 'fantasy likes saving minerals' bullshit ive heard.]
DRG didnt win with 'slyness'. he just outplayed jangbi on every part of the game. He was winning so badly it almost looked like he was just toying with him.
Flash isnt anything special, sure, but I didnt see anyone claiming he was. Most people where excited about the kespa pros who did well in wcs korea. Everyone wants to see flash do well, but I def dont have the feeling he is being hyped alot atm.
To be fair, JangBi game was over the second he clicked on Guardian Shield. Unless you expecting him to do that again anytime soon, we should just pretend that game never happened when evaluating performance.
On August 29 2012 04:46 []Phase[] wrote: heh didnt agree with anything really.
The multitasking of fantasy looked amazing cause nestea did a pisspoor job defending it. If you are talking about multitasking, what about the 2k mins fantasy was floating on? And dont give me the 'fantasy likes saving minerals' bullshit ive heard.]
DRG didnt win with 'slyness'. he just outplayed jangbi on every part of the game. He was winning so badly it almost looked like he was just toying with him.
Flash isnt anything special, sure, but I didnt see anyone claiming he was. Most people where excited about the kespa pros who did well in wcs korea. Everyone wants to see flash do well, but I def dont have the feeling he is being hyped alot atm.
To be fair, JangBi game was over the second he clicked on Guardian Shield. Unless you expecting him to do that again anytime soon, we should just pretend that game never happened when evaluating performance.
Alright ill give you that, tho judging from the game overall id say DRG was still going to win it anyways. The point is that he didnt need the slyness to win, janbi just happened to make a stupid mistake and drg capitalised on it, but even without the mistake or the 'slyness' as the OP calls it, it wouldve still made Jangbi look like a noob compared to DRG
On August 29 2012 04:46 []Phase[] wrote: heh didnt agree with anything really.
The multitasking of fantasy looked amazing cause nestea did a pisspoor job defending it. If you are talking about multitasking, what about the 2k mins fantasy was floating on? And dont give me the 'fantasy likes saving minerals' bullshit ive heard.]
DRG didnt win with 'slyness'. he just outplayed jangbi on every part of the game. He was winning so badly it almost looked like he was just toying with him.
Flash isnt anything special, sure, but I didnt see anyone claiming he was. Most people where excited about the kespa pros who did well in wcs korea. Everyone wants to see flash do well, but I def dont have the feeling he is being hyped alot atm.
Yeah, I just watched the Fantasy Nestea game, and although Fantasy did a good job with mult-pronged medivac harass, I hardly think his gameplay was like Bomer macro+MMA multitask+MKP control (which some people have actually said, don''t know if it was in jest though). I'm not bashing any player, or trying to incite a debate. Good (but not stellar) play from Fantasy, and typically horrible drop defense by Nestea.
Again, we need to see more games, and I can't wait to see how this all turns out. HOTS should shake things up a lot more, it being a brand new game and all!
On August 29 2012 04:40 Sinensis wrote: Flash is extremely special. Considering he only very recently switched to Sc2 the fact that he is able to beat someone who has been a full time pro since the beta in a big tournament already is insane.
I agree Flash is great and have incredible potential, but beating San is the exact opposite of "insane". San failed to qualify for Code A in 6 straight seasons, which means he haven't been able to claim to be a top 50 player for a year. If you look up "sane" in dictionary, a talented pro-gamer beats someone like San is listed as a definition.
A lot of people would say San is better than his GSL performance. People were saying he is something like the best protoss outside of GSL a while back. Look it up. But that isn't so relevant, the point is that San is still a very good player with lots of experience. How many foreigners with a few months of practise do you see beating him? What about GSL pros? It is quite insane how quickly the Kespa pros have progressed.
On August 29 2012 04:34 winthrop wrote: 1. NesTea vs Fantasy, there is a timing terran can abuse medivacs and that map is retarded for zerg, not NesTea'S Fault. also PartinG vs BaBy, all he needs to do is force field the ramp as BaBy did not fast expand, antidrop is not the most important, also there is map abuse as same as NesTea vs Fantasy, the force field placements are more crucial. in First game JangBi vs DRG, the guardian shield against zerglings reminded me Trickster =.=
Anyway, entombed valley should be removed from tournament map pool as soon as possible
Sorry, but it was NEsteas fault. I remember when Nestea was with the marines at a cliff. Neste sends all lings/banes. Fantasy loads in and drops on the other side of the cliff, NEstea sends everything again, etc... . He had queens nearby and could have focused the medivacs. Or split his lings. It is not the first time I see Nestea outmiltitasked and Nestea has always had some games like this.
We should notice that many GOM Players didnt play good vs KesPA, especially the WCS Korea Games. One example is Genius vs Jaedong at Ohana. Hero vs Roro at Cloud Kingdom is the other example. Ofcourse it was a very entertaining match, but Hero played ~10 times worse than what I saw from him.
I think the GOM-Players are very anxious if they play vs Kespa-Players. Me too, if I play vs Grubby or Stephano, I would play worse than against random, because they are legend/excellent.
On August 29 2012 03:40 ragz_gt wrote: It's fun to get excited and all... but seriously, today's game were pretty terrible compared to games we had in WCS, by both KeSPA and eSF players.
Not the best set of examples to draw conclusions from.
Fortunately the RESULTS were some of the best we could've hoped for. Anything could happen in the remaining days but it's a start at least at producing a wicked RO8
On August 29 2012 05:10 Dingodile wrote: We should notice that many GOM Players didnt play good vs KesPA, especially the WCS Korea Games. One example is Genius vs Jaedong at Ohana. Hero vs Roro at Cloud Kingdom is the other example. Ofcourse it was a very entertaining match, but Hero played ~10 times worse than what I saw from him.
I think the GOM-Players are very anxious if they play vs Kespa-Players. Me too, if I play vs Grubby or Stephano, I would play worse than against random, because they are legend/excellent.
I am a fan of Fantasy, but people really over hype him. His macro is not very good today and in some of his proleague games. He got a huge advantage today because he faked Nestea into thinking he was doing an 11-11 rax, so Nestea delayed his expansion and then he managed to snipe a queen and drones with just 4 marines. I think he is progressing really nicely in sc2 but lets not get crazy here he won`t often get that type of edge vs most top zergs.
On August 29 2012 01:40 massivez wrote: 3. Flash didn't impress me that much either, he seems like macro hard and try to overpower the opponent with pure macro. Didn't see any harass. But ill give him some time, he is a practice beast.
I assure you, you'll see micro. Flash is not a 1-dimensional macro player. Very good game sense, very good strategies, very good macro, very good micro.
All I learned from today is though is that KeSPA and ESF should stop with this grudge bullshit and merge. If not merge, AT LEAST work together.
Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
i dont get fantasy's multidrop dont matter since nestea didnt manage it right argument. terran's dropships drop regardless of zerg being prepared or not. if there are mutas out terran will adapt. zerg's preparedness dont discredit terran's attempt at multitasking. its either it does damage or not, it does not take away multitasking.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
On August 29 2012 05:45 jinorazi wrote: i dont get fantasy's multidrop dont matter since nestea didnt manage it right argument. terran's dropships drop regardless of zerg being prepared or not. if there are mutas out terran will adapt. zerg's preparedness dont discredit terran's attempt at multitasking. its either it does damage or not, it does not take away multitasking.
I think the argument most people who are downplaying it is that Nestea should have been in a better spot to handle those and even in the spot he was in he should have done better. Fantasy had some pretty sick 3 pronged harass going though so no one should take away from that.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Fantasy reach 2k minerals because of his amazing mechanic, sure.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Fantasy reach 2k minerals because of his amazing mechanic, sure.
it actually annoying to hear people bashing players of pooling money, especially zerg when they're suppose to pool money. when u got 4 bases and busy doing a battle, you're going to pool money in matter of seconds. if they got 1k, 2k minerals and spend it all in the next 5 seconds, its not bad macro.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
Generally yes, kespa mechanics > esf. And MVP in his prime didn't have insane mechanics as you said, MVP never was a mechanical player...he's super smart and just wins like Nestea. They both arren't that fast, MVP maxes at like 180-190 eapm. But on the other hand you got players like DRG,Hero,Taeja,Supernova who all got 200+ eapm - getting even to 220-230.
Mechanics don't even matter all that much, in the recent IEM games Yongwha had an average of ~210 eapm every game and he lost to those pesky EU zergs who have like 170-180. MVP had around ~150-170.
Fantasy showed some great multitasking but I think what was more important is that Nestea was having a hard time defending all that.
On August 29 2012 05:59 jinorazi wrote: it actually annoying to hear people bashing players of pooling money, especially zerg when they're suppose to pool money. when u got 4 bases and busy doing a battle, you're going to pool money in matter of seconds. if they got 1k, 2k minerals and spend it all in the next 5 seconds, its not bad macro.
Fantasy plays zerg? don't think so. Terran should never got 2k minerals until they are maxed.
On August 29 2012 05:59 jinorazi wrote: it actually annoying to hear people bashing players of pooling money, especially zerg when they're suppose to pool money. when u got 4 bases and busy doing a battle, you're going to pool money in matter of seconds. if they got 1k, 2k minerals and spend it all in the next 5 seconds, its not bad macro.
Fantasy plays zerg? don't think so. Terran should never got 2k minerals until they are maxed.
reading comprehension error? where did i say fantasy. shit happens, having 2k minerals for reasonable time is not a big deal.
On August 29 2012 05:59 jinorazi wrote: it actually annoying to hear people bashing players of pooling money, especially zerg when they're suppose to pool money. when u got 4 bases and busy doing a battle, you're going to pool money in matter of seconds. if they got 1k, 2k minerals and spend it all in the next 5 seconds, its not bad macro.
Fantasy plays zerg? don't think so. Terran should never got 2k minerals until they are maxed.
Terran also never has more bases than zerg does.
Fantasy was a better player, in the end. You should not be figuring "who is better" or "who will dominate". "Elephant meter" should be checked few tournaments later. It's no point in arguing over things that didn't happen. At least, not yet.
I really enjoyed Nestea vs Fantasy game, since that was the only game where one of the players was not outclassed by another. Rest games were really, really wide apart. Let's hope in time both KeSPA and ESF manage to produce high quality games.
The only game that actually could've been better, is JangBi vs DRG. He lost the game because of the mis-click, which may happen at every level of play.
I'm sorry, i find taeja atm a lot more impressive then what people at osl showed. It was high level nonetheless and to say kespa players are noobs is just wrong.
This is what i expected to happen, really. In terms of mechanics and multitasking they should be better (on average), because they are used to it in bw, while esf players are a lot more 'in the game'; against kespa players they need their knowledge about the game and decisionmaking to get the edge. This is not necessarily a consequence of talent, but above all of how things played out. Kespa players need to work on the game itself, while esf players need to work on mechanics and multitasking. This was mostly on average, there are of course exceptions to the rule.
My analysis from not even watching the games is that we should all be afraid of foreign players losing relevancy in their play- why would I watch the average foreigner when I can just turn on a VOD of the OSL or GSL and see someone who is far superior?
nothing special about flash? well, i tell you man, maybe there is nothing special in his game, but what he is good at is winning and that's the only thing that matters
On August 29 2012 06:32 mrRoflpwn wrote: My analysis from not even watching the games is that we should all be afraid of foreign players losing relevancy in their play- why would I watch the average foreigner when I can just turn on a VOD of the OSL or GSL and see someone who is far superior?
i watched every game of grrr and elky during their days, i'm always rooting for foreigners in korean leagues. i'm sure foreigners will step up their game or get recruited into korean teams in the long run
On August 29 2012 06:32 mrRoflpwn wrote: My analysis from not even watching the games is that we should all be afraid of foreign players losing relevancy in their play- why would I watch the average foreigner when I can just turn on a VOD of the OSL or GSL and see someone who is far superior?
And OSL will NOT give out seeds just because you are a foreigner. It requires the player to participate in tournament to earn their place. I doubt we'll see one in the tournament. Which somewhat brings me some nostalgic memories of when idrA was in the OSL prellims.
Well everyone coming from BW expected this from KeSPa really. And i'm just glad that GOM stood up for themselves this time against Kespa. Like everyone knew that KeSPa pretty much owned everything back in the BW days and they could do pretty much everything they wanted really. I'm just glad something happened this time and that GOM is powerful enough to stand on their own legs.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
Generally yes, kespa mechanics > esf. And MVP in his prime didn't have insane mechanics as you said, MVP never was a mechanical player...he's super smart and just wins like Nestea. They both arren't that fast, MVP maxes at like 180-190 eapm. But on the other hand you got players like DRG,Hero,Taeja,Supernova who all got 200+ eapm - getting even to 220-230.
Mechanics don't even matter all that much, in the recent IEM games Yongwha had an average of ~210 eapm every game and he lost to those pesky EU zergs who have like 170-180. MVP had around ~150-170.
Fantasy showed some great multitasking but I think what was more important is that Nestea was having a hard time defending all that.
apm =/= mechanics. Mvp's actions have always been more clean than the majority of sc2 pros. Didn't drg peak at like 600 apm in a game? I remember seeing a screenshot of that. Tell me all of that is useful apm lol
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do.
It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general.
Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Fantasy reach 2k minerals because of his amazing mechanic, sure.
Sharp observation. Indeed, as a terran, you never should bank minerals until u have 4 mining bases. It shows Fantasy still has a lot of room to improve.
But the game with neatea the game itself was horrible. Nestea plays like a random plat/diamond player on KR ladder. So it makes fantasy's play not so impressive. But the marine micro is excellent and the early marine engagement timing is perfect which impress me a lot.
On August 29 2012 01:45 Milkis wrote: Flash is god tier in BW cause of his game sense, not because of his mechanics or whatever. players like Baby has always had fantastic mechanics and multitasking, while Flash is someone who just knows what you're doing and will destroy you cause he knows way too well what's going on in the game. Obviously it's going to take time for him to be impressive in a new game, and he even mentions that in an interview about how he needs a year or two to be god tier.
Saying stuff like "THIS IS EVIDENCE SC1 SKILLS DONT TRANSLATE IMMEDIATELY TO SC2" is pretty silly really. Give it time instead of being like "Oh he's nothing special" ~_~;
I agree. I also think that we need to stop bothering to speculate about anything. Let's see how this plays out for a few months, then we can draw conclusions rather than this stupid speculation. The speculation (while it still annoyed the shit out of me) made much more sense when BW was still going strong. Now that BW is officially done, there is no need to speculate. Let the shit play out.
DRG straight up outclassed Jangbi. Had little to do with knowledge of the game. Jangbi goofed and lost a lot to a few lings getting into his base and DRG ran wild with this advantage and Jangbi was never coming back from there. He couldn't even creep out and get his 3rd, while DRG was laying down his 5th. Even mechanically, I'd argue DRG was equal or greater in that match.
Nestea has just been awful in the mu lately and opening pool first combined with allowing just 4 marines to deal staggering damage set him behind all game. Fantasy had some impressive multitasking but nothing extraordinarily groundbreaking I'd say. We've seen better from Taeja and MMA's glory days.
I just think you're flat out overrating Baby. Now, I don't know PvT as well since I don't play either race, but it seemed like Baby was a tad too aggressive that game. He got in and dealt some good damage, but he also lost his share of units while he was doing it. Parting never took the bait either, and Baby was never allowed to get up the ramp with his main force. Parting essentially defended most of the game and was even ahead in economy after all the harass and then just killed him with a superior force.
Flash won straight-up with superior macro. Although...iirc San didn't have storm for some reason. Meh, think Flash could've still won frankly.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do.
It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general.
Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition.
DRG was a little boy when he joined CJ Entus. He really didn't develop much as a pro-gamer until later on.
Saying that he doesn't have the mechanics of BW players when he's known to consistently shoot past 600APM is ridiculous. There is no difference between KeSPA and current top eSF players besides game experience.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do.
It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general.
Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition.
DRG was a little boy when he joined CJ Entus. He really didn't develop much as a pro-gamer until later on.
Saying that he doesn't have the mechanics of BW players when he's known to consistently shoot past 600APM is ridiculous. There is no difference between KeSPA and current top eSF players besides game experience.
APM is not mechanics. And if you want to remove DRG from the equation fine, but then you may as well add into it MC, MMA, etc. There are countless examples of players who switched early because they did not have success in BW.
I'm also not sure age much matters. BaBy is one of the youngest progamers ever and most consider him a mechanical monster.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
Generally yes, kespa mechanics > esf. And MVP in his prime didn't have insane mechanics as you said, MVP never was a mechanical player...he's super smart and just wins like Nestea. They both arren't that fast, MVP maxes at like 180-190 eapm. But on the other hand you got players like DRG,Hero,Taeja,Supernova who all got 200+ eapm - getting even to 220-230.
Mechanics don't even matter all that much, in the recent IEM games Yongwha had an average of ~210 eapm every game and he lost to those pesky EU zergs who have like 170-180. MVP had around ~150-170.
Fantasy showed some great multitasking but I think what was more important is that Nestea was having a hard time defending all that.
apm =/= mechanics. Mvp's actions have always been more clean than the majority of sc2 pros. Didn't drg peak at like 600 apm in a game? I remember seeing a screenshot of that. Tell me all of that is useful apm lol
Not that I'm arguing that eapm = mechanics, but both jaedong and bisu who are arguably in the faster range of broodwar players have 240ish eapm. Drg and losira regularly get 230+ at least on the mlg replays that are released
And that 630ish apm was in blizzard time so it was 870ish real time apm.
From the OSL games this far I don't think you can really say anything. Most of the games were dominated by mistakes of the losing players, not incredible play of the winning one. Also there was no game which went to the later stages. Fantasy's micro was certainly impressive but the way Nestea was defending was just bad. Maybe in a few months with some more data we can really draw conclusions. And saying PartinG was outclasses is quite strange to me. BaBy was trying to pressure him with drops but did almost no damage at all while PartinG split up his army very good and proceeded to win the game quite easily.
4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
That's where you are wrong.
The special thing about flash is his determination. Losses don't really encourage him (although he might not really know how to lose anymore^^), he will just train even more. If he goes to SC2 with the same mentality, I don't see any other possibility than him owning.
I think it´s too early to draw any conclusion regarding the Kespaa vs eSF debate because the population isn´t statistically relevant. You can´t base valid conclusions out of a population of 4 games and even if you also consider the WCS matches and GSL-Kespa cross matches the population is still to small.
In order to draw valid conclusions you need a lot games. A small populations doesn´t prove anything because it´s basically impossible to exclude the option of randomness. And even if you have a big population, there´s still a chance that your conclusion is wrong. If you ask 4 kids about what they think about smoking because you want to study kids behaviour regarding smoking for a study, your study doesn´t prove anything. It´s the same when you talk about 4 or even 100 games. The concept behind that is simple. You ask 4 kids(or watch games) and draw a conclusion but at the same time their 1000000 other kids(or 10000000 games yet to be played) which might lead to another, different conclusion.
So I order to figure out how far ahead or behind Kespa players are, we just have to wait and see until their are more games to judge.
Hmm... I think SC1 players have great mechanics because of the nature of SC1, being good at that game demanded more mechanically. Plus, it's a fact that many players have observed that BW teams just practice more and have a stricter regimen. I think if that remains to be the case and if they know SC2 enough to be able to implement a more systematic practice routine for the players then the SC1 playes will overtake the GSL players. I think Hyun and ForGG are bad examples of Kespa players' skill transference simply because they moved to SC2 teams with less strict and less rigid practice environments.
Still though, to say that Flash is nothing special, please qualify it by saying "right now" or "at SC2". Lol. It makes BW fans like me feel the need to get a little defensive. Haha! But, Flash is the best ever in BW because of his work ethic which built up his fundamentals such as his non-stop macro and impeccable game sense. Flash has said himself that he spent so much time THINKING about the ins and outs of BW. If he applies that to SC2, I don't think we'll necessary see things like MMA-style or (now Fantasy-style) drops, etc. We'll see a player who macros really hard, has good micro in big engagements and a player who reacts well to different situations. I think Flash has the potential (in SC2) to be somewhat of a player who is similar to Taeja in terms of playstyle. Nothing real fancy but everything extremely solid. It was his being extremely solid which won him so many championships in BW, it also made some people (not me) criticize him as a boring player.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do.
It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general.
Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition.
DRG was a little boy when he joined CJ Entus. He really didn't develop much as a pro-gamer until later on.
Saying that he doesn't have the mechanics of BW players when he's known to consistently shoot past 600APM is ridiculous. There is no difference between KeSPA and current top eSF players besides game experience.
But how much of that 600 apm is actually useful? Flash wasn't exactly the fastest player but his actions counted when it mattered.
I do not understand what the OP was trying to convey to the audience. I understand that competition is good between the old SC1 players and the "old" SC2 players, but what was his point? I understand that SC1 pros might have an advantage in terms of micro and macro, but what was the "Lessons learned"?
Also, Flash >> All. But I'm Flash fanboy so I just had to say that ^^
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do.
It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general.
Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition.
DRG was a little boy when he joined CJ Entus. He really didn't develop much as a pro-gamer until later on.
Saying that he doesn't have the mechanics of BW players when he's known to consistently shoot past 600APM is ridiculous. There is no difference between KeSPA and current top eSF players besides game experience.
But how much of that 600 apm is actually useful? Flash wasn't exactly the fastest player but his actions counted when it mattered.
If you use eapm as a measure of useful actions per minute then drg has a similar count to jaedong.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
Players like DRG, MVP, Nestea, etc switched to SC2 because they didn't have the mechanics for BW. The guys still playing BW obviously did and do.
It's not a slight on any of the ESF players to say that Kespa players just have more talent mechanically when SC2 is a less mechanical game than BW. It evens the playing field, but it's pretty obvious that Kespa players have a higher skill ceiling in general.
Nobody is saying it's an absolute black and white shut case though. Obviously some Kespa players will flounder in SC2 and not be able to "get it". But it's also obvious that many of the SC2 pros who dropped BW several years ago are as good as they are because of the experience in BW. It's only logical to think the current BW pros will have just as much success in their own transition.
Actually the guy who replied to me did say it was a black and white case. That was my point of contention with him. I hate the whole BW mechanics>ESF comments because that implies that it is true for everyone. Some BW players don't have crazy mechanics and some ESF do. BW will have more top end mechanical players obviously but that doesn't ensure success either. I just dislike arguments like what are being made far too often.
we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
kespa, ogn at least is definitely interested in the foreign scene, only reason why they didnt before was because there was no large enough fanbase to bother and gretech took advantage of that small fanbase to acquire market share.
i dont think kespa would be opposed to having outside teams to compete in proleague though this is optimistic view but i'm sure they wont be oppose to any foreigners play in their league, let it be individuals joining osl through qualifier or through courage or requiring to join one of kespa team. but i do agree that kespa would need to be reorganized if they want to play nice with esf, ie. kespa should longer be composed of those 8(7) teams or atleast be willing to work with nonkespa teams for better growth of sc2. if they refuse to work with esf in the future if/when kespa players become dominant, they will get a much bigger shitstorm than ever before in comparison.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
kespa, ogn at least is definitely interested in the foreign scene, only reason why they didnt before was because there was no large enough fanbase to bother and gretech took advantage of that small fanbase to acquire market share.
i dont think kespa would be opposed to having outside teams to compete in proleague though this is optimistic view but i'm sure they wont be oppose to any foreigners play in their league, let it be individuals joining osl through qualifier or through courage or requiring to join one of kespa team. but i do agree that kespa would need to be reorganized if they want to play nice with esf, ie. kespa should longer be composed of those 8(7) teams or atleast be willing to work with nonkespa teams for better growth of sc2. if they refuse to work with esf in the future if/when kespa players become dominant, they will get a much bigger shitstorm than ever before in comparison.
They havnt shown interest comparable to Gom though. They never would have not gone to GSL if they were for one. Gom has catered to us and has a subscription model because foreigners are a big part of their revenue.. does anyone really think that OGN will make enough off of twitch advertisement revenue when lots of people have popup blockers to justify investing in our entertainment or going out of their way for foreign players etc?
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: In the future, the KeSPA players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing.
Just to play the contrarian I'd like to point out that flash burst onto a scene dominated by protoss players with a TvP build that became the staple of every terran's arsenal for quite some time. Since his rise to the top he has consistently created new successful builds of varying style. Yes the game was figured out to a certain degree, but even at the time of its last proleague breath there will still be new play in bw. In short, a balanced unchanged game and vast play styles are not mutually exclusive.
As far as the current transition is concerned, yes there is an established metagame that the KeSPA players have inherited. This does not mean they are not creating builds for this metagame. If by "builds" you are referring to common openings, that is just how a professional scene works, there will always be a standard solid opening 90% of players utilize at some point or another. Well-structured planned timing-attacks and unorthodox openings are generally created at a far more frequent rate than the standard opening in a match-up. Once a timing-attack has been figured out you need a new one, but that doesn't make your opening obsolete, just your follow-up/plan. The KeSPA players are having to forge their own way in the current metagame just as the eSF players are. Both are constantly devising new strategies that push the metagame forward. It's a continuous change, thus you can't really "ride the backs of people" for very long unless you want to always be one step behind.
In conclusion the S-class KeSPA players everyone is drooling over do not survive solely on their mechanics, which seems to be a common misconception among the portion of this community unfamiliar with them. They work closely with their teammates to create new strategies that will catch their opponents off guard, otherwise the game would become a stale mechanics fest, which I imagine would be met with a less than favorable fan-reception.
some people are also ignoring a huge factor here- there are hundreds, if not thousands of games available for kespa players to watch esl players in SC2 and in a 1 game series, any advantage like that becomes huge.
What I learned last night is Fantasy is going to become an amazing SC2 player, Parting is going to become a star with the OGN crowd, and I feel confident in my prediction at the start of the year that Nestea won't make a GSL final in 2012.
Besides that, the games were pretty bland, San didn't punish greedy Flash, and Nestea played as badly as he did against Byun in the quarterfinals of last season.
People think too extreme one way or another. Players like Fantasy, Flash, etc. will probably become some of the best in SC2. Some others from Brood War will just suck and never get the hang of it.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
kespa, ogn at least is definitely interested in the foreign scene, only reason why they didnt before was because there was no large enough fanbase to bother and gretech took advantage of that small fanbase to acquire market share.
i dont think kespa would be opposed to having outside teams to compete in proleague though this is optimistic view but i'm sure they wont be oppose to any foreigners play in their league, let it be individuals joining osl through qualifier or through courage or requiring to join one of kespa team. but i do agree that kespa would need to be reorganized if they want to play nice with esf, ie. kespa should longer be composed of those 8(7) teams or atleast be willing to work with nonkespa teams for better growth of sc2. if they refuse to work with esf in the future if/when kespa players become dominant, they will get a much bigger shitstorm than ever before in comparison.
They havnt shown interest comparable to Gom though. They never would have not gone to GSL if they were for one. Gom has catered to us and has a subscription model because foreigners are a big part of their revenue.. does anyone really think that OGN will make enough off of twitch advertisement revenue when lots of people have popup blockers to justify investing in our entertainment or going out of their way for foreign players etc?
ogn just started getting into sc2. they didnt do sc2 before now, they had no reason to grow bw market outside korea. ogn will have to come up with some revenue generator for foreigners, maybe something like gomtv does, though i'd not prefer it. i enjoyed ogn for years without having to pay a dime, it'll be unfortunate :/ maybe they should just stick to korea and do korean casts only :3 gomtv is online streaming service, ogn is korean tv station, just to clarify. you know, its like saying how come showtime dont care about korea. (maybe they do, but just saying)
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
why does crap like this get posted over and over again? foreign scene demoted itself to little league status in bw because no one was willing to put in the hours in korea past 2001-2.
I have a bit of a personal analogy here. My first online game was a fast paced FPS called Soldier of Fortune 2. I played ALOT and as a result I managed to get into one of the best clans in my region and was generally considered one of better players among many. Fast forward a few years, Call of Duty 1 came out, which I'm sure most of you already know, is also an FPS.
Now was I able to transfer my skills across to a game of the same genre? Yes and no. Yes I was slightly ahead of the new kids on the block playing their first FPS in terms of reflex wise and faster learning. Also I was able to read my opponents movements better as well as be a lot more unpredictable due to my past experiences. But at the same time, there was a huge learning curve for the different weapons, maps and of course a whole bunch of new opponents I had never faced before.
Now this may not be the most accurate analogy due to the fact that this was 2 completely different titles, with the only thing in common being that they are of the same genre, however I believe the same concept applies to the KeSPA pros switching over to an extent. Yes they will learn faster, yes some may become some of the best in the world, but the fastest way for them to become the best is to play, play, play. And for that they need to participate in as many tournaments as possible because this will give them the necessary experience and confidence, coming into this new game.
I just wanna point out that there are a few all ins that BW pros dont know and can be tricked into losing to. In fact, I'm think BW pros have a losing percentage vs cheeses.
Yeah, but they're dayum impressive, and parting and DRG are gonna have to pick it up lest they face the same fate as the multiple time GSL champ nestea...........................like really nestea................(of course I'm being too hard on nestea fantasy played sexy, but still nestea LIVE UP TO YOUR FAKE HYPE)
This thread will eventually become useful but obviously there are no lessons to be learned this early in the KeSPA vs GSL competition. Frankly the OP couldn't be more off the mark in his assessments. Parting got outplayed? Lol baby tried the derpiest 2 prong attacks that any NA high master can defend while on two bases. Fantasy's macro was impeccable? His mineral floating tells a different story. Fantasy's marine micro? All we could tell from his drops was that he can target fire banelings and he can lift his units up and down a cliff using his dropship. Absolutely nothing of note there. DRG won by slyness? Um no he outplayed Jangbi in every aspect of the game.
Basically the OP is drawing sweeping conclusions based on bo1s which is absurd. Obviously many others have said as much in this thread, just thought I'd add to the swell of counterarguments lol.
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: There is clear flaws in your arguement, saying that SC1 players are just overall better, sure, maybe Fantasy will be have 5 GSL titles by the end of 2013.
BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently.
And you draw this out of 1 game with NesTea and Fantasy, while we can look at some other games from other pros, let's take MarineKing, he played awful and lost 2-0 to Trimaster, now does this mean that Trimaster has become a top Code S guy/MLG contender?
No, he went onto get crushed by other players straight afterwards.
And the majority of the Kespa players who did well in WCG are the fairly unknown, none of the really big names have yet to show their skill in SC2, sure Flash won today, and his looked good, but today was his first time where he went up against a SC2 player and won ( I didn't see the game).
And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
Hyun while on the a-team wasn't close to the top players and far from flash-bisu-jaedong tier, and Hyun doesn't practice as much as he use to on mbc forgg while he did win an MSL...that was ages ago like soo long ago that in the past 2-3 years I don't think he's even played in team league games once. Sun baby are not no names or small names they are BIG names everyone knows them from bw and how good they are u dot get called mini bisus for nothing and just before bw ended sun was tearing it up playing really damn good both of them always field in team games, I really disadvice going to liquidpedia only for ur information on bw pros...does not do them justice
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: In the future, the KeSPA players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing.
Just to play the contrarian I'd like to point out that flash burst onto a scene dominated by protoss players with a TvP build that became the staple of every terran's arsenal for quite some time. Since his rise to the top he has consistently created new successful builds of varying style. Yes the game was figured out to a certain degree, but even at the time of its last proleague breath there will still be new play in bw. In short, a balanced unchanged game and vast play styles are not mutually exclusive.
As far as the current transition is concerned, yes there is an established metagame that the KeSPA players have inherited. This does not mean they are not creating builds for this metagame. If by "builds" you are referring to common openings, that is just how a professional scene works, there will always be a standard solid opening 90% of players utilize at some point or another. Well-structured planned timing-attacks and unorthodox openings are generally created at a far more frequent rate than the standard opening in a match-up. Once a timing-attack has been figured out you need a new one, but that doesn't make your opening obsolete, just your follow-up/plan. The KeSPA players are having to forge their own way in the current metagame just as the eSF players are. Both are constantly devising new strategies that push the metagame forward. It's a continuous change, thus you can't really "ride the backs of people" for very long unless you want to always be one step behind.
In conclusion the S-class KeSPA players everyone is drooling over do not survive solely on their mechanics, which seems to be a common misconception among the portion of this community unfamiliar with them. They work closely with their teammates to create new strategies that will catch their opponents off guard, otherwise the game would become a stale mechanics fest, which I imagine would be met with a less than favorable fan-reception.
I don't think I expressed myself well, I know that new builds and styles were being created. when i say they were "riding the backs of their predecessors" I mean that they didn't have to figure out what was good or bad while learning the game. They used the knowledge that was already gained by others to propel themselves to greater heights. Yes, thats what I was trying to say, makes more sense now I hope. LOL
I'm not saying they havent worked out their own builds or at least versions of a particular buildMy point was that when you are a seriously good player and are willing to put in the time you will be able to catch up very fast, because you can just look at what the best current players are doing and work towards that, which is what pretty much every other player in the world does (including 99.9% of TLers). Flash didn't just burst on to the scene, he practiced doing what was established as the standard, got as good as everyone else and then started to improve upon it. BW was always being refined more but always on the back of someone else's work. The mobile phone you carry couldn't have been created without all the other small steps in technology that came before it.
I am no pro gamer but whenever I go to a friends house and play xbox/ps3 I rip them apart despite the fact I do not own nor want to own a a console (apart from nintendo ones cause I love zelda and pokemon) and have generally not played the games they play very often. All I do is watch them for a while, get some tips on what I should be doing and then beat them hands down within an hour or two (that isn't a brag either, i've always been like that because I'm a very fast learner with good hand-eye from being a musician and have been gaming on a daily basis since I was about 8, games make sense to me more than to most people, though this isn't true amongst a community like TL, here i'm just a scrub) this is precisely what the BW players have done, just on a longer timescale.
They came in to a game that has an established way of doing things and used their expertise in BW to bridge the gap in game sense and knowledge that is currently there. If they had to come in to SC2 without any knowledge of how it SHOULD (or atleast how we SC2 old lags perceive it should) be done (i.e they had no VODS or replays to review) they certainly wouldn't walk in to WCS and take a series, it would take them atleast 1 year to be even close to a standard to compete with eSF players. When you come in to a game that has already been figured out to a fair degree, you can catch up very very fast and that is exactly what is happening.
What happens from here is anybody's guess. The kespa players are narrowing the gap and will at some point be on par with the very very best in SC2, some are already close. Some of them will eventually be better that eSF players, some won't, some will fail miserably. Basically what I'm trying to say is, once there is a level playing field (both eSF and kespa players being able to study equally for each other and kespa players having had the time to start experimenting properly with new things) then we can start to draw conclusions
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: There is clear flaws in your arguement, saying that SC1 players are just overall better, sure, maybe Fantasy will be have 5 GSL titles by the end of 2013.
BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently.
And you draw this out of 1 game with NesTea and Fantasy, while we can look at some other games from other pros, let's take MarineKing, he played awful and lost 2-0 to Trimaster, now does this mean that Trimaster has become a top Code S guy/MLG contender?
No, he went onto get crushed by other players straight afterwards.
And the majority of the Kespa players who did well in WCG are the fairly unknown, none of the really big names have yet to show their skill in SC2, sure Flash won today, and his looked good, but today was his first time where he went up against a SC2 player and won ( I didn't see the game).
And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
Hyun while on the a-team wasn't close to the top players and far from flash-bisu-jaedong tier, and Hyun doesn't practice as much as he use to on mbc forgg while he did win an OSL...that was ages ago like soo long ago that in the past 2-3 years I don't think he's even played in team league games once. Sun baby are not no names or small names they are BIG names everyone knows them from bw and how good they are u dot get called mini bisus for nothing and just before bw ended sun was tearing it up playing really damn good both of them always field in team games, I really disadvice going to liquidpedia only for ur information on bw pros...does not do them justice
Well not to nitpick but ForGG won a MSL and not the one that you've wrote.
ForGG's mechanics is atrocious though I must say. He won with an unexpected style of timing pushes while others were going standard. Then next season, he got completely mauled with the peers improving on their defenses.
But hey when he joined in KT, his big accomplishment was making Flash a 'god'. They trained with each other, and at the time of ForGG's enrollment in KT, Flash have begin to change up his turtle style into more midgame pushes that is ForGG's forte.
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: There is clear flaws in your arguement, saying that SC1 players are just overall better, sure, maybe Fantasy will be have 5 GSL titles by the end of 2013.
BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently.
And you draw this out of 1 game with NesTea and Fantasy, while we can look at some other games from other pros, let's take MarineKing, he played awful and lost 2-0 to Trimaster, now does this mean that Trimaster has become a top Code S guy/MLG contender?
No, he went onto get crushed by other players straight afterwards.
And the majority of the Kespa players who did well in WCG are the fairly unknown, none of the really big names have yet to show their skill in SC2, sure Flash won today, and his looked good, but today was his first time where he went up against a SC2 player and won ( I didn't see the game).
And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
Hyun while on the a-team wasn't close to the top players and far from flash-bisu-jaedong tier, and Hyun doesn't practice as much as he use to on mbc forgg while he did win an OSL...that was ages ago like soo long ago that in the past 2-3 years I don't think he's even played in team league games once. Sun baby are not no names or small names they are BIG names everyone knows them from bw and how good they are u dot get called mini bisus for nothing and just before bw ended sun was tearing it up playing really damn good both of them always field in team games, I really disadvice going to liquidpedia only for ur information on bw pros...does not do them justice
Well not to nitpick but ForGG won a MSL and not the one that you've wrote.
ForGG's mechanics is atrocious though I must say. He won with an unexpected style of timing pushes while others were going standard. Then next season, he got completely mauled with the peers improving on their defenses.
But hey when he joined in KT, his big accomplishment was making Flash a 'god'. They trained with each other, and at the time of ForGG's enrollment in KT, Flash have begin to change up his turtle style into more midgame pushes that is ForGG's forte.
opps lol I'm an idiot don't know what was wrong with me lol fixed, yep forgg was the timing attack Terran that's all he did. he would attack at this seemingly random time with a bunch of werid number of units and win right there and yes I agree his run did seem a bit lucky with how the game was than
Fantasy's multitasking was really sick, drop all over the place. However think about Nestea played horrible in that game rather than Fantasy was being too good. Nestea didn't tech up to either mutas or infestor which could easily shut down those drop plays, his 4th base was late, he sucked at multitasking and drop defending.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: In the future, the KeSPA players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing.
Just to play the contrarian I'd like to point out that flash burst onto a scene dominated by protoss players with a TvP build that became the staple of every terran's arsenal for quite some time. Since his rise to the top he has consistently created new successful builds of varying style. Yes the game was figured out to a certain degree, but even at the time of its last proleague breath there will still be new play in bw. In short, a balanced unchanged game and vast play styles are not mutually exclusive.
As far as the current transition is concerned, yes there is an established metagame that the KeSPA players have inherited. This does not mean they are not creating builds for this metagame. If by "builds" you are referring to common openings, that is just how a professional scene works, there will always be a standard solid opening 90% of players utilize at some point or another. Well-structured planned timing-attacks and unorthodox openings are generally created at a far more frequent rate than the standard opening in a match-up. Once a timing-attack has been figured out you need a new one, but that doesn't make your opening obsolete, just your follow-up/plan. The KeSPA players are having to forge their own way in the current metagame just as the eSF players are. Both are constantly devising new strategies that push the metagame forward. It's a continuous change, thus you can't really "ride the backs of people" for very long unless you want to always be one step behind.
In conclusion the S-class KeSPA players everyone is drooling over do not survive solely on their mechanics, which seems to be a common misconception among the portion of this community unfamiliar with them. They work closely with their teammates to create new strategies that will catch their opponents off guard, otherwise the game would become a stale mechanics fest, which I imagine would be met with a less than favorable fan-reception.
I don't think I expressed myself well, I know that new builds and styles were being created. when i say they were "riding the backs of their predecessors" I mean that they didn't have to figure out what was good or bad while learning the game. They used the knowledge that was already gained by others to propel themselves to greater heights. Yes, thats what I was trying to say, makes more sense now I hope. LOL
I'm not saying they havent worked out their own builds or at least versions of a particular buildMy point was that when you are a seriously good player and are willing to put in the time you will be able to catch up very fast, because you can just look at what the best current players are doing and work towards that, which is what pretty much every other player in the world does (including 99.9% of TLers). Flash didn't just burst on to the scene, he practiced doing what was established as the standard, got as good as everyone else and then started to improve upon it. BW was always being refined more but always on the back of someone else's work. The mobile phone you carry couldn't have been created without all the other small steps in technology that came before it.
I am no pro gamer but whenever I go to a friends house and play xbox/ps3 I rip them apart despite the fact I do not own nor want to own a a console (apart from nintendo ones cause I love zelda and pokemon) and have generally not played the games they play very often. All I do is watch them for a while, get some tips on what I should be doing and then beat them hands down within an hour or two (that isn't a brag either, i've always been like that because I'm a very fast learner with good hand-eye from being a musician and have been gaming on a daily basis since I was about 8, games make sense to me more than to most people, though this isn't true amongst a community like TL, here i'm just a scrub) this is precisely what the BW players have done, just on a longer timescale.
They came in to a game that has an established way of doing things and used their expertise in BW to bridge the gap in game sense and knowledge that is currently there. If they had to come in to SC2 without any knowledge of how it SHOULD (or atleast how we SC2 old lags perceive it should) be done (i.e they had no VODS or replays to review) they certainly wouldn't walk in to WCS and take a series, it would take them atleast 1 year to be even close to a standard to compete with eSF players. When you come in to a game that has already been figured out to a fair degree, you can catch up very very fast and that is exactly what is happening.
What happens from here is anybody's guess. The kespa players are narrowing the gap and will at some point be on par with the very very best in SC2, some are already close. Some of them will eventually be better that eSF players, some won't, some will fail miserably. Basically what I'm trying to say is, once there is a level playing field (both eSF and kespa players being able to study equally for each other and kespa players having had the time to start experimenting properly with new things) then we can start to draw conclusions
While that does clear up your point a bit there are still a couple points I'm not sure I follow you on. For starters you say, " I mean that they didn't have to figure out what was good or bad while learning the game" and I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean. "Good or bad"? It sounds to me like you mean there is an existing metagame. This is the case for every player except for those who played in the first weeks of the beta. What flash did was practice his mechanics, look at what the current best players were doing, and find the way to beat it, not necessarily improve on it.
Again my previous post was merely playing the contrarian. I felt a counter-argument to yours needed to be made, and I decided to take it upon myself to do so. I'm personally of the opinion that some of the better young eSF players would have eventually made the A-team in BW (ie DRG, MMA, MKP), but there is an extremely small likelihood they would have ever come close to S-class. Understand that S-class is not the same as code-s, its FAR more exclusive. I'll try to put it in perspective for those who jumped on-board for sc2. The eSF equivalent of an A-teamer would be a team's code-a and code-s level players. An S-class player would be the very few at the absolute highest level of play. The eSF equivalent of an S-class player would be DRG, MVP, MKP, MMA, Nestea (at one time anyway), etc... Only the players that much of TL thinks of as nearly unbeatable at one point or another would ever really qualify as an S-class player.
What separates KeSPA players from eSF players is mostly practice, not raw talent. However in the case of persistent S-class players such as Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, Fantasy, Jangbi, etc there is not only greater drive and dedication that the rest, but also an immense amount of talent to boot. Some in this thread have said that they do not think of flash as a particularly talented player. This is true to a certain extent of his mechanics. He's never going to micro like Bisu, most people don't. These people point to his decision making as his true asset which is again true to a certain extent. What made flash so dominant in BW, however, was not any one of these things. Flash was a perfect storm of talents. He was just mechanically-talented enough to keep up with the best of them, he has greater drive and dedication than just about anyone to ever play the game, and he is an extremely intelligent player. His intelligence is where his true talent lies. His drive means he will eventually gain the knowledge (through practice and experience) to apply his intelligence to the game, and the mechanics mean he can be completely unpredictable once he does. Flash is favored in a macro game against you, he's favored if he tries to end it early with a quick timing, and he's even favored against you in a cheesy micro battle (for the most part). Flash's true talents lie in the BoX format. He is completely unpredictable because he has absolute confidence in whatever he does. A great example is MVP vs Squirtle in the code-s finals. MVP came out in the last set with balls of steel and proxy 2-raxed. MVP is known as practically the best BoX player in sc2, but flash is on another level. MVP is somewhat predictable because he's not favored in the late game against a lot of his peers; Flash is. Flash will slowly figure out the game, refine his play a bit, and that's when he'll become a monster. My point is, flash is an anomaly in the "it's too soon to make a decision" discussion. He will be one of the very best. There's really no debating it. It's a matter of when with him, not if.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret.
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: ... BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently. ... And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
To be perfectly fair, Hyun was a mediocre A-teamer at best. His 43.3% winrate in bw is nothing remarkable... Also, Forgg never won a MSL, only one OSL in 2008 (which, to be fair, he won in an incredible fashion). Still, his prime was long past when he switched to sc2. His final year in bw he wasn't fielded very often in SPL.
While your first claim about Nestea might be true, the second isn't. When he was picked up by KT, he was regarded as one of the most promising rookies, considering his domination in a multitude of amateur tourneys. For some reason, KT decided to use him primarily for 2v2, which took its toll on his 1v1 practice. One has to wonder how well Nestea would have done in bw if proleague didn't include 2v2 back then.
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: ... BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently. ... And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
To be perfectly fair, Hyun was a mediocre A-teamer at best. His 43.3% winrate in bw is nothing remarkable... Also, Forgg never won a MSL, only one OSL in 2008 (which, to be fair, he won in an incredible fashion). Still, his prime was long past when he switched to sc2. His final year in bw he wasn't fielded very often in SPL.
While your first claim about Nestea might be true, the second isn't. When he was picked up by KT, he was regarded as one of the most promising rookies, considering his domination in a multitude of amateur tourneys. For some reason, KT decided to use him primarily for 2v2, which took its toll on his 1v1 practice. One has to wonder how well Nestea would have done in bw if proleague didn't include 2v2 back then.
Forgg did win an MSL and was fielded every time KT played in proleague.
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: ... BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently. ... And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
To be perfectly fair, Hyun was a mediocre A-teamer at best. His 43.3% winrate in bw is nothing remarkable... Also, Forgg never won a MSL, only one OSL in 2008 (which, to be fair, he won in an incredible fashion). Still, his prime was long past when he switched to sc2. His final year in bw he wasn't fielded very often in SPL.
While your first claim about Nestea might be true, the second isn't. When he was picked up by KT, he was regarded as one of the most promising rookies, considering his domination in a multitude of amateur tourneys. For some reason, KT decided to use him primarily for 2v2, which took its toll on his 1v1 practice. One has to wonder how well Nestea would have done in bw if proleague didn't include 2v2 back then.
Forgg did win an MSL and was fielded every time KT played in proleague.
Yes he won an MSL not an OSL. However, I don't think he was fielded that often in his last year, the years leading up to it he was though.
On August 29 2012 01:48 Hiea wrote: ... BUT, you can see how other A-teamers like Hyun, who while he switched midway and has become a high Code A / Low Code S, but he isn't at the top, same goes with Forgg, he won an MSL or OSL, and yet he have yet yielded major results, he made Code S, he defeated some foreigners at Assembly, IEM and the other tournament in Germany recently. ... And also about multitasking, you comparing NesTea? he was always known as a brilliant mind, but with poor mechanics in comparison to other pro-gamers, thats why he never achieved much success in SC1, and very much early on in SC2.
To be perfectly fair, Hyun was a mediocre A-teamer at best. His 43.3% winrate in bw is nothing remarkable... Also, Forgg never won a MSL, only one OSL in 2008 (which, to be fair, he won in an incredible fashion). Still, his prime was long past when he switched to sc2. His final year in bw he wasn't fielded very often in SPL.
While your first claim about Nestea might be true, the second isn't. When he was picked up by KT, he was regarded as one of the most promising rookies, considering his domination in a multitude of amateur tourneys. For some reason, KT decided to use him primarily for 2v2, which took its toll on his 1v1 practice. One has to wonder how well Nestea would have done in bw if proleague didn't include 2v2 back then.
Forgg did win an MSL and was fielded every time KT played in proleague.
LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.
And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
1. Yeahm gotta agree with you on that one. But their are exceptions. In an interview even the Kespa players admit they are impressed by MKP's micro, so top tier players should still be comparable imo.
2. I agree. A the moment i would way that the kespa players have a higher chance to advance. Afterwards it'll the be GSL player's turn to catch up, and they will hopefully be able to learn from the kespa players. A higher skillcap all around
3. Yep
4. For the most part I agree. Even in the proleague games Flash hasn't really shined. (I found his game vs Bisu moderately impressive tho.) Nonetheless I expect great things from Flash, although i doubt he'll reprive his godlyness unfortunately.
On August 29 2012 13:17 jellyjello wrote: LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.
And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.
To be fair, Flash is known for having probably the best macro on the planet.
I don't get the line that Flash wasn't impressive. I felt it was a dominating performance. I guess people are looking for exceptional multitasking and aggression to be impressed?
He played very similar to how he does in BW, aggressive expansions and applying enough pressure to San to not allow him to be equally as greedy. Also his ghost transition timing was fantastic, he was getting his ghost energy even before the first engagement where he looked to trade armies. As soon as that happens 5 or 6 ghosts come straight out.
On August 29 2012 01:34 AngryMag wrote: My conclusion would be that you cannot draw conclusion from such a small sample of games. We should wait for a year or so of competition until we start to evaluate. Let's just wait and see what happens....
Umm, a year is an eternity when it comes to SC2. Two to three months is already a lot of time, even for the metagame. I think you and I would agree that it could take roughly a year before we see the Kespa players up around peak form, but it's possible that the Kespa players pull ahead of the GSL players within a month or two. Or, we could see the Kespa players plateau or even fall, relative to the GSL players. Both possibilities are worth looking out for in the next 1-2 months and would be interesting developments.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret.
Hrmm... Another reference to Idra. Idra was GIVEN the seed.
So all I got out of this thread was Fantasy looks really impressive from his bo1 against NesTea, of course Fantasy is going to be a powerhouse. He was pretty much the strongest terran at the end of professional Korean BW.
A big part of Boxer's job at SKT1 is to develop Fantasy into an sc2 champion.
The current crop of kespa players won't dominate sc2, they will for sure add more competition.
The time when its going to get really exciting further down the line when they are playing in finals against the best esf / foreign players when each side has a decent amount of vods to analyse and time to prepare for their opponents. That's gonna be epic.
On August 29 2012 01:40 massivez wrote: To soon to jump onto conclusions.
But anyway,
1. Fantasy's micro in protecting his marines + sniping banelings was impressive. 2. To me some are on the same level already (Roro, Effort, Jaedong, Fantasy, By.sun, CJhero), but they lack some general gamesense sometimes. 3. Flash didn't impress me that much either, he seems like macro hard and try to overpower the opponent with pure macro. Didn't see any harass. But ill give him some time, he is a practice beast.
Um yeah, that is Flash's normal playstyle. He was never a multitasker or harasser or, he was a strategic macro player.
On August 29 2012 13:17 jellyjello wrote: LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.
And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.
To be fair, Flash is known for having probably the best macro on the planet.
Anyone that thinks Flash is/was all about strategy is retarded. His mechanics are right up there with the best. If anyone actually watched BW you'd know all Flash ever did was 14cc every game when he was dominating. The guy just had insane control/macro which allowed him to get away with it every single game. This, coupled with his amazing game sense is why he was God.
Edit: Wow what is with all the people saying Flash didn't harass or multitask. There were plenty of games where he dissects players attacking them all over the map. Even Jaedong couldn't keep up 1/2 the time. He just didn't do it every game...
I want people like Flash to be beastly. They might become so again. But right now every KeSPA player is highly overestimated and overly hyped. It's a different game, let's see what happens.
On August 29 2012 01:34 AngryMag wrote: My conclusion would be that you cannot draw conclusion from such a small sample of games. We should wait for a year or so of competition until we start to evaluate. Let's just wait and see what happens....
Umm, a year is an eternity when it comes to SC2. Two to three months is already a lot of time, even for the metagame. I think you and I would agree that it could take roughly a year before we see the Kespa players up around peak form, but it's possible that the Kespa players pull ahead of the GSL players within a month or two. Or, we could see the Kespa players plateau or even fall, relative to the GSL players. Both possibilities are worth looking out for in the next 1-2 months and would be interesting developments.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas.
Yeah, Nestea didn't play SC:BW. Oh wait... he did, so check your facts next time.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas.
Yeah, Nestea didn't play SC:BW. Oh wait... he did, so check your facts next time.
He hasn't played since 2009 and he was pretty bad. Not really the same thing as someone like Fantasy.
On August 29 2012 13:17 jellyjello wrote: LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.
And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.
San played like crap though, no presure and scared in his pants passive play let Flash build up those CC's. Also attacking at bad engagements. Flash will be good no doubt, he needs some more experience to make that sick sense of his work perfectly. I just think that Fantasy will be even more superior to him then he was at the end of Broodwar. Even with less Sc2 play Fantasy looked the best of the Kespa players in OSL to me personaly ofc. (and he has Boxer now to coach, can't hurt either)
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret.
Hrmm... Another reference to Idra. Idra was GIVEN the seed.
Source?
I'm pretty sure there are videos of him playing at the qualifiers for the first 3 GSL opens, but I'm not 100% certain.
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote: we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.
I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret.
Hrmm... Another reference to Idra. Idra was GIVEN the seed.
Source?
I'm pretty sure there are videos of him playing at the qualifiers for the first 3 GSL opens, but I'm not 100% certain.
I think there is some confusing. IdrA earned his seed in the early GSLs the first time he was there. He was given a seed when he went back in GSL 1 2012
On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote: Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled.
I've read some funny things in my time here...
Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that.
What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed.
Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here.
It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious.
I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2.
Generally yes, kespa mechanics > esf. And MVP in his prime didn't have insane mechanics as you said, MVP never was a mechanical player...he's super smart and just wins like Nestea. They both arren't that fast, MVP maxes at like 180-190 eapm. But on the other hand you got players like DRG,Hero,Taeja,Supernova who all got 200+ eapm - getting even to 220-230.
Mechanics don't even matter all that much, in the recent IEM games Yongwha had an average of ~210 eapm every game and he lost to those pesky EU zergs who have like 170-180. MVP had around ~150-170.
Fantasy showed some great multitasking but I think what was more important is that Nestea was having a hard time defending all that.
Mvp has one of the highest APMs I have ever seen on SC2 Gears. Its around the high 300s and even gets to 400 average in some games. From a sample of 10 games, he actually has slightly more apm then even Taeja, who gets in the upper 300s. Point is MVP does have insane mechanics.
On August 29 2012 01:39 Rubber wrote: Real question: Why do you think such a small series of one-off games offers any conclusive insight into the play of KeSPA players?
I agree with this one, 4 bo1 is very small sample to come to these conclusions. Althought there has been more GOM vs Kespa I would still say it's too early to say.
I feel it would be more to talk about if he instead brought up the wcs matches, gom vs kespa. A much larger sample size.
On August 29 2012 17:36 Spiner wrote: Mvp has one of the highest APMs I have ever seen on SC2 Gears. Its around the high 300s and even gets to 400 average in some games. From a sample of 10 games, he actually has slightly more apm then even Taeja, who gets in the upper 300s. Point is MVP does have insane mechanics.
APM does not equal mechanics. You can press buttons fast but execute your build, unit control or general game plan sloppily. Not to dispute MVP's mechanical prowess, but rating mechanics by APM is incorrect.
Honestly think it's the best thing that's happened to the scene, has renewed my interest and then some in sc2. Was initially reluctant to see bw go because i thought it was (and still do) the more entertaining game to watch, but now i'm hoping with continued balancing and such and can get it close to there.
It might've caused some drama but damn if this drama hasn't been entertaining. Think they should push it more with a kespa vs esf dream team match kinda like the end of season show matches they did in bw, then a massive kespa and esf proleague.
The funny thing is that they said the same when Flash first started SC1. "He's just a cheater, noob blah, blah, blah!" And then he destroyed everybody...It depends if Flash still has the drive to become the best in SC2 also. I mean practicing 14h/day is pretty damn hard...He had some slumps in SC1 also when he lost to almost everybody but then he came back even stronger. In 2010 he obliterate his competition, he won everything 3-0,3-0.. He made the second best BW player Jaedong look like a noob in that year.
All i read is "my herp is better than your derp". Jesus. If those BW players wouldnt show results like they do they sure wouldn't be worthy of calling themselves fulltime progamers. If SC2 players would die like flies to BW players in sc2 they sure woudln't be worthy of calling themselves fulltime programes.
I just saw the vods. There are a lot of things to observe between the competition, but the ultimate thing seems to be that KeSPA will eventually be the best players in SC2.
All I was thinking was, 'poor foreigners'. We thought it was hard now. We got kespa players with very little practice making a good showing in a community we cant seem to touch.
Oh well, they say BW is harder for a reason.
Id be anxious to know some foreigner pros thoughts. The games have some fundamentals in common, but theyre still very different.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable.
? He was floating so many resources at times during mid-game...
seems we're learning that it's pretty difficult to analyze a barcode opponent for a Bo1
hopefully when there's more replays of the kespa players we'll be able to have better games rather than 1 sided preparation based on the amount of information of that player thats out there
On August 29 2012 23:02 Angry.Zerg wrote: Well, we already learned that Bo1s are a terrible for measure (remember when GSL Code S groups used to be Bo1?, GOM already learned that).
These guys are amazing and they train harder than anyone else. I'm excited and I really want to watch them in the GSL4.
up and downs are bo1 osl top16 is bo1 ever and its all vs all so its pretty fair ! 60% of the foreign events also have bo1 in group play
osl still is a tv station they not have 4 hours for 1 show
On August 29 2012 22:26 Boonbag wrote: well sc2 is much more fun to watch with the true pros now involved
Seriously.. ? Game quality was reaaally bad. Regardless who won. Not the usual GSL quality where crisp executions and crisis management.
There was little to none excitement in most games I watched. It's either a Kespa player sucking, a GSL player sucking, or both of them sucking.
Then those ESF pros who have very crisp executions and very good crisis management skills can use those crisp executions and good crisis management skills to handle what KeSPA pros throw at them. Shit becomes VERY stupid when 2 zealots kills 25 SCVs before 10 minute mark or archons and colossi kill 7-8 ghosts at the Xel'Naga tower while rest of the terran army is back at the base and trying to prevent zealots from killing e-bays after 3-3 was done. Because if they don't, they probably won't stay as active progamers for long.
On August 29 2012 23:03 CoR wrote: watch today games + Show Spoiler +
WTF MVP ? i knew flying is a fuckn badass strong player but if MVP loosing to a semigood kespa player world is over guys
What makes you surprised this much? Mvp himself was a semigood KeSPA player.
On August 29 2012 23:02 Angry.Zerg wrote: Well, we already learned that Bo1s are a terrible for measure (remember when GSL Code S groups used to be Bo1?, GOM already learned that).
Don't know what they learned exactly. I don't see any meaningful or measurable improvement between GSL with BO1 groups and GSL with BO3 groups (except that I usually get bored of the latter before all games scheduled for the day are over).
And if you watch MVP's other games you will notice him fortifying every base with bunker(s) and turret(s) against zealot harrass. At least he used to.
Maybe he's not as good as he once was. I am not a fan of him at all. I just expected higher quality games. (see yesterday's games, esp. DRG v Janbgi -> example of both sucking)
i'm curious, are most sc2 only fans upset at people thinking kespa > gsl players already when it's closer to an even field? Or are they upset that these players will eventually become the best in the game. I feel like the latter can only be better for the game as it raises teh skill cap
On August 29 2012 23:11 rysecake wrote: i'm curious, are most sc2 only fans upset at people thinking kespa > gsl players already when it's closer to an even field? Or are they upset that these players will eventually become the best in the game. I feel like the latter can only be better for the game as it raises teh skill cap
It's annoying watching a mediocre game and then have a thread pop up about kespa players being amazing.
On August 29 2012 22:26 Boonbag wrote: well sc2 is much more fun to watch with the true pros now involved
Seriously.. ? Game quality was reaaally bad. Regardless who won. Not the usual GSL quality where crisp executions and crisis management.
There was little to none excitement in most games I watched. It's either a Kespa player sucking, a GSL player sucking, or both of them sucking.
Fantasy vs Nestea was sick dude. Don't get to see that kind of micro/harass very often.
That style stopped because zergs learned how to deal with it. Mma did it far better then what fantasy displayed yesterday.
On August 29 2012 23:16 usethis2 wrote: I am upset at quality of games.
DRG winning despite his lackuster performance -> not exciting MKP losing while showcasing his CC building capability -> not exciting MVP losing while being sloppy -> not exciting MC winning by being his old self (timing attacks or cheese) -> not exciting
I have no vested interest in either side.
Pretty much this. Also watching drg pick off 3 stalkers and then have people believe that he only outplayed jangbi at one point of the game is ridiculous.
DRG winning despite his lackuster performance -> not exciting MKP losing while showcasing his CC building capability -> not exciting MVP losing while being sloppy -> not exciting MC winning by being his old self (timing attacks or cheese) -> not exciting
^ a lot of the new sc2 fans coming from bw don't understand the game yet at a depth like you. They mostly just see their old favorites winning and then get excited about it.
Truth be told this whole rivalry is starting to work people up. The playing field is pretty even right now, dunno why there's so much hate. The only good thing coming out of the transition is that the skill cap of sc2 is going to increase. There's no need for sides, they will integrate soon enough.
On August 29 2012 23:16 usethis2 wrote: I am upset at quality of games.
DRG winning despite his lackuster performance -> not exciting MKP losing while showcasing his CC building capability -> not exciting MVP losing while being sloppy -> not exciting MC winning by being his old self (timing attacks or cheese) -> not exciting
I have no vested interest in either side.
They either play bad or are forced in a bad situation when they see their are countered a bit given kespa players can analize their vods ..bad mkp which fucked up :D so mc with his normal style aka u never know what happens with him is very good for osl :D
As much a dick as this makes me sound, the thing I'm most looking forward to from the dramatically increased talent pool, is finally not seeing people like yugioh. That bland, overly "standard" style of play just has to go.
On August 29 2012 23:27 bo1b wrote: As much a dick as this makes me sound, the thing I'm most looking forward to from the dramatically increased talent pool, is finally not seeing people like yugioh. That bland, overly "standard" style of play just has to go.
lol i havent watched a game of his in a long time. explain! =)
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I know nothing about him except that sc1 people consider him the best, but this is proof that sc1 skill does not immediately and totally translate to sc2 skill. 5. We have entered the First Golden Age of Starcraft, with the two powerhouses in Korea competing and cooperating. I can't wait for more.
What are your observations or things who learned from the matches?
4. Flash God -> Wrist/Shoulder problems -> Surgery -> New Game -> Physical Therapy -> Metal replacement arm -> 10 more golds
Try getting to Master League on KR with a busted arm.
On August 29 2012 23:27 bo1b wrote: As much a dick as this makes me sound, the thing I'm most looking forward to from the dramatically increased talent pool, is finally not seeing people like yugioh. That bland, overly "standard" style of play just has to go.
lol i havent watched a game of his in a long time. explain! =)
He's just a boring player to watch, and he doesn't have the macro of other players to make watching other people try to overcome him interesting. This pretty much leads him to beating people who shouldn't be in code a, and then losing in the up and down matches.
On August 29 2012 23:27 bo1b wrote: As much a dick as this makes me sound, the thing I'm most looking forward to from the dramatically increased talent pool, is finally not seeing people like yugioh. That bland, overly "standard" style of play just has to go.
lol i havent watched a game of his in a long time. explain! =)
He's just a boring player to watch, and he doesn't have the macro of other players to make watching other people try to overcome him interesting. This pretty much leads him to beating people who shouldn't be in code a, and then losing in the up and down matches.
Rain vs. MKP: MKP threw away a huge lead. MKP looked bad, but Rain made him look bad with his constant zealot harass. He didn't lose his advantage all at once, just watch the VODs. It took 3 engagements down the central axis for MKP to lose his supply lead. Each time he was killed by storms+collosi+chargelots, by units spread-out in a good concave across two screens. It wasn't a fluke bad engagement, it was multiple bad engagements. So either MKP choked multiple times, or Rain made him look that way.
IMO, MKP should have used his banshees (which already had cloak!) and done some drops, but perhaps he didn't feel comfortable, given how easily Rain deflected those earlier. But at a 90 to 160 food deficit, Rain certainly wouldn't have had the army to counter banshees at the 3rd, a drop in the main, and a push at the fourth.
Flying vs. MVP: I think MVP got screwed by a well-practiced map-specific build designed to punish the quick 3 CC MVP likes to do on Ohana. Flying executed flawlessly, then won the game. But I think the outcome might have been different in a Bo3 or Bo5.
MC vs. Best: PvP baby. MC 1-base blink stalker against an expanding protoss. Enough said.
On August 29 2012 23:54 YMCApylons wrote: Rain vs. MKP: MKP threw away a huge lead. MKP looked bad, but Rain made him look bad with his constant zealot harass. He didn't lose his advantage all at once, just watch the VODs. It took 3 engagements down the central axis for MKP to lose his supply lead. Each time he was killed by storms+collosi+chargelots, by units spread-out in a good concave across two screens. It wasn't a fluke bad engagement, it was multiple bad engagements. So either MKP choked multiple times, or Rain made him look that way.
IMO, MKP should have used his banshees (which already had cloak!) and done some drops, but perhaps he didn't feel comfortable, given how easily Rain deflected those earlier. But at a 90 to 160 food lead, Rain certainly wouldn't have had the army to counter banshees at the 3rd, a drop in the main, and a push at the fourth.
Flying vs. MVP: I think MVP got screwed by a well-practiced map-specific build designed to punish the quick 3 CC MVP likes to do on Ohana. Flying executed flawlessly, then won the game. But I think the outcome might have been different in a Bo3 or Bo5.
MC vs. Best: PvP baby. MC 1-base blink stalker against an expanding protoss. Enough said.
Bad engagements isn't a good enough word to describe mkp's army control. Which is weird because he's pretty much set the standard when it comes to army control/micro in sc2. This game brought back horrible memories of that mkp vs nestea final, mkp trying to play a different to normal style.
Flying played well and Mvp played like a player who has wrist problems and a lack of interest in the game.
On August 29 2012 23:54 YMCApylons wrote: Rain vs. MKP: MKP threw away a huge lead. MKP looked bad, but Rain made him look bad with his constant zealot harass. He didn't lose his advantage all at once, just watch the VODs. It took 3 engagements down the central axis for MKP to lose his supply lead. Each time he was killed by storms+collosi+chargelots, by units spread-out in a good concave across two screens. It wasn't a fluke bad engagement, it was multiple bad engagements. So either MKP choked multiple times, or Rain made him look that way.
IMO, MKP should have used his banshees (which already had cloak!) and done some drops, but perhaps he didn't feel comfortable, given how easily Rain deflected those earlier. But at a 90 to 160 food deficit, Rain certainly wouldn't have had the army to counter banshees at the 3rd, a drop in the main, and a push at the fourth.
Flying vs. MVP: I think MVP got screwed by a well-practiced map-specific build designed to punish the quick 3 CC MVP likes to do on Ohana. Flying executed flawlessly, then won the game. But I think the outcome might have been different in a Bo3 or Bo5.
MC vs. Best: PvP baby. MC 1-base blink stalker against an expanding protoss. Enough said.
Plus Best had his army in a terrible position, asking to be forcefielded on the ramp. And when he got forcefielded, he did not move his immortals so they could shoot up the plateau (they bugged at the FF). And when they finally made it up, sure they lived long due to Guardian Shield, but he still had chances if he would have microed his immortals at all. So besides his ridiculously good Blink micro, MC had 3 times luck that Best screwed up
On August 29 2012 23:03 CoR wrote: watch today games + Show Spoiler +
WTF MVP ? i knew flying is a fuckn badass strong player but if MVP loosing to a semigood kespa player world is over guys
have you not seen WCS korea? Its the protoss meta right now. Protoss fucking everywhere. The entire game might as well just be PvP.
Also people need to really put into perspectives on how good kespa players really are atm. 16 available spots to qualify in WCS Korea, and only 1 out of dozens of Kespa players actually qualified through the open bracket.
On August 29 2012 23:27 bo1b wrote: As much a dick as this makes me sound, the thing I'm most looking forward to from the dramatically increased talent pool, is finally not seeing people like yugioh. That bland, overly "standard" style of play just has to go.
lol i havent watched a game of his in a long time. explain! =)
He's just a boring player to watch, and he doesn't have the macro of other players to make watching other people try to overcome him interesting. This pretty much leads him to beating people who shouldn't be in code a, and then losing in the up and down matches.
Fantasy ran circles around Nestea, but Parting? I don't know how you can possibly say that successfully defending multiple front harassment is being "outclassed".
Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
Build orders on specific maps matter more in a bo3. In a bo1 it's less mind games and more mechanical. In a bo3 you can fuck around with the opponents mind by cheesing first set, playing standard next, or cheesing again etc. bo1 is more random but what can you do? This has been tradition at osl for a decade. And it's not as simple as just changing the format. This is broadcasted on national tv in Korea, so tv scheduling comes into play
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
The Super Bowl is Bo1. March Madness is a series of Bo1s. You're not going to grow the audience if you require massive amounts of viewing time just to increase the chance of the better player advancing.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
The Super Bowl is Bo1. March Madness is a series of Bo1s. You're not going to grow the audience if you require massive amounts of viewing time just to increase the chance of the better player advancing.
sports games take hours and hours, SC2 don't. You can easily fit 2-4 BOs in the ammount of time it takes for a football or basketball game to finish, probably can do 5+ BO3s in the time it takes a baseball game to finish. Also saying football is BO1 is stupid. If you want to compare it to SC2, it being BO1 would mean the game ends with the first touchdown.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
The Super Bowl is Bo1. March Madness is a series of Bo1s. You're not going to grow the audience if you require massive amounts of viewing time just to increase the chance of the better player advancing.
KeSPA players have been playing for at most 4 months (give or take). ESF players have been playing for 2 years. KeSPA players are beating ESF players consistently already.
KeSPA players will only get better, we all know that. Looks like its time to say goodbye to ESF players and GSL.
On August 30 2012 02:41 Chronald wrote: See... Here's the deal:
KeSPA players have been playing for at most 4 months (give or take). ESF players have been playing for 2 years. KeSPA players are beating ESF players consistently already.
KeSPA players will only get better, we all know that. Looks like its time to say goodbye to ESF players and GSL.
You also fail to realize that while ESF players had to figure out everything every build, timing, etc... on their own, all the kespa guys have to do is watch VODs or streams and get all that information right away. Bw didn't have this, SC2 does. That makes a huge difference in how long it takes to catch up.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
The Super Bowl is Bo1. March Madness is a series of Bo1s. You're not going to grow the audience if you require massive amounts of viewing time just to increase the chance of the better player advancing.
sports games take hours and hours, SC2 don't. You can easily fit 2-4 BOs in the ammount of time it takes for a football or basketball game to finish, probably can do 5+ BO3s in the time it takes a baseball game to finish. Also saying football is BO1 is stupid. If you want to compare it to SC2, it being BO1 would mean the game ends with the first touchdown.
The main thing is that this goes on TV, not an online stream. They have to fit 4 matches in, each potentially 30-40 minutes, and no TV program is going to last longer than 2 hours, tops.
This is a good thing if it leads to more viewers. Right now instead of trying to please hardcore fans, SC2 needs to figure out a way to appeal to fans who don't play the game. Otherwise, eSports can't become an independent pillar of revenue...
Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
The Super Bowl is Bo1. March Madness is a series of Bo1s. You're not going to grow the audience if you require massive amounts of viewing time just to increase the chance of the better player advancing.
sports games take hours and hours, SC2 don't. You can easily fit 2-4 BOs in the ammount of time it takes for a football or basketball game to finish, probably can do 5+ BO3s in the time it takes a baseball game to finish. Also saying football is BO1 is stupid. If you want to compare it to SC2, it being BO1 would mean the game ends with the first touchdown.
And no, sports games don't take hours and hours. Most regular sports shows end in 2 hours or less. To expect viewers keep interest in 5 hours of games for several days/weeks in a row is, frankly, ridiculous. Does anyone even really watch all of GSL's group stages?
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
One problem with Bo1 is that you might have to play infinite rounds of tiebreakers before deciding a winner. If you use Bo3 you can have a tie-breaker process on how tie's should be decided.
Bo3 generate better matches as well as a chance for the players to improve themselves between the games, thinking of what could've been different.
And saying that sports uses Bo1 doesn't hold since in, for example ice hockey, you have three 20-minutes periods and if you fail horribly in the first one, you can still come back in the other two. In the last season of Elitserien (Sweden's highest hockey league), the team HV71 managed to turn a 2-7 disadvantage in the last period to 7-7 (in less the 5 minutes) and eventually winning in overtime.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
What multi-tasking? NesTea is already the slowest player in GSL so you can't really take him as an example. PartinG was perfectly fine in his match. He played brilliantly and wasn't lacking in any multi-tasking.
On August 30 2012 02:02 hunts wrote: Bo1 format is just idiotic. Honestly when GSL is Bo3 from the start and every real tournament is as well it makes me view OSL as some joke online tournament or like the blizzard cup that was Bo1 round robin. I don't know why people think OSL is the best, Bo1 will never bring the best games and it will never ensure the players who deserve to advance do so.
TV show vs online TV, the money & the fame come from big audience & OSL will raise the standard by a lot. Besides it's not one bo1 it's 3 bo1 & even with one win you often can play tiebreaker so it's not that random.
But it is random, it's infinitely easier to win a couple BO1s than to win a couple BO3's like GSL and every other real tournament requires. I'm sorry but after seeing the format I just can't take OSL seriously.
Round Robin format allows the best player overall to advance. A player with better understanding of the game and/or better mechanics is able to play against different opponents on different maps.
A Bo3 format allows players to prepare specifically against the other players. Bo3 is more mind games.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
Your argument doesn't hold up from a simple statistics point of view. If it is 'really easy' for someone to get lucky and take a game off a much better player, the odds of them getting lucky twice in a BO3 series are not that much lesser than doing so once in a BO1. And the psychological / extra preparation aspect of BO1 with groups split over several days really favours the more consistent, less 'lucky' players. Of course it might not be so obvious right now when half the players are still massive unknowns and the other half is not quite familiar with the setting (and perhaps isn't taking it as seriously as they could), but yeah.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
jesus you people be crying 6 months from now when OSL will be the most important thing and the only thing to watch
edit : do you actually know why MKP / MVP seem to play worst than usual ? it's because to them OSL is about 100 times more important and stressful than GSL you could clearly see it watching MKP headshots during the game
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
jesus you people be crying 6 months from now when OSL will be the most important thing and the only thing to watch
edit : do you actually know why MKP / MVP seem to play worst than usual ? it's because to them OSL is about 100 times more important and stressful than GSL you could clearly see it watching MKP headshots during the game
Also, you can't discount the fact that up until a day before the matches, they didn't even know whether they would participate due to the eSF boycott.
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: I had to take time before posting this to make sure what I write is at the very least objective and not a rant of a moronic hater. I admit, during the games, and perhaps even tomorrow, I will cheer as hard for ESF players against KeSPA, screaming every now and then things like "Go roll this noob" or "lol ESF > KeSPA". But all that is just for hype and nothing personal at all. I will still cheer for GSL players mainly because I know them, and partly because a little competition among the fans is good. Anyway, having established that, I want to have a little discussion on what we observed and learned from the first day of official clash between the highly regarded sc1 players and our heroes, the "seniors" of sc2. Here's what I learned:
1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable. 2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust. 3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game. 4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
Your argument doesn't hold up from a simple statistics point of view. If it is 'really easy' for someone to get lucky and take a game off a much better player, the odds of them getting lucky twice in a BO3 series are not that much lesser than doing so once in a BO1. And the psychological / extra preparation aspect of BO1 with groups split over several days really favours the more consistent, less 'lucky' players. Of course it might not be so obvious right now when half the players are still massive unknowns and the other half is not quite familiar with the setting (and perhaps isn't taking it as seriously as they could), but yeah.
It would be really easy to get lucky if both players just grab random builds every game, but there's also the metagaming aspect.
still that bo1 tournament is very random results mvp and marikeking got destroyed only cause they dont know oponents or uderstimate them or bad build older just Bo1 is just very random even bronze can win over gm in it if he dont play normal or better... Bo3 is just better way to compare kespa and gsl players in sc2, bo1 just allow kespa players to catch up fast with little build older luck not by skill .....
On August 30 2012 03:47 CamoPillbox wrote: still that bo1 tournament is very random results mvp and marikeking got destroyed only cause they dont know oponents or uderstimate them or bad build older just Bo1 is just very random even bronze can win over gm in it if he dont play normal or better... Bo3 is just better way to compare kespa and gsl players in sc2, bo1 just allow kespa players to catch up fast with little build older luck not by skill .....
Going to be interesting to see someone like Flash take on the foreign macro powerhouses. In terms of scary build orders, Kas, Thorzain, Stephano and Ret are a league above nearly everyone else.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
Haha these nonhardcore fans supported TL for like 10 years man. No one is feeling threatened by you.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
OSL is the most prized and successful esports tournament in the world for a reason. Your dislike of it doesn't make it any less so.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
OSL is the most prized and successful esports tournament in the world for a reason. Your dislike of it doesn't make it any less so.
The guy's a troll and not very good at it. The general stupidity of the side he supposedly supports managed to make me overlook that fact as well.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
LOL. The OSL ro16 isn't just a bo1 silly. Its group play like many other tourneys out there... Its just spread over time, which is what makes each game so much more epic. Wait for the groups to be complete before you go on talking about luck or whatever. If a guy 2-0s his group chances are hes the better player. Bo3 group plays would be kinda ridiculous.
Ro8 will be best of series so just chill and wait it out. People these days are so stuck in the moment they can't think ahead for two minutes.
And yes I agree with your bo1 vs bo3 rant. Its just that this isn't designed to be a bo1, its designed to be group play.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
To add to that it took him from 07 to reach god status in 11-12. Hes going to need a similar HUGE time window to turn into the monster that he is(/was ) in bw
He can and will be great in a couple months. But to reach god status all the starts literally have to align.
On August 29 2012 02:20 Gosi wrote: Really look at Flash playing sc2 just of now. I say with no shame that he has the best macro and resource management showed up to date in sc2. It's really off the hook and when he can use that + his overall mechanics with alot better understanding of sc2 (aka understand the game inside and out) he will rise to god tier once again.
Flash had good macro. But honestly, he went for a super early 3rd that was unpunished and then both sides just went passive. I am sure a lot of terrans could macro like that in such a passive game.
Indeed you really have to want to see that one. Perfect macro in a passive game is not even close to the same achievement as it was in BW. I'd go so far as to say its standard for most S-Class terrans, which I'm sure he will be before too long if kespa doesn't pull them out again. We need to see more games, the datasets just too small.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
To add to that it took him from 07 to reach god status in 11-12. Hes going to need a similar HUGE time window to turn into the monster that he is(/was ) in bw
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
So you've discussed why it's not good to have Bo1 matches during an elimination stage! Great! This is a round-robin group stage!
Furthermore (as I've stated so many times already...), OGN, being an actual TV channel with other programming, can't afford (without a lot of work) to broadcast 4 Bo3s in one day, or more than twice a week.
I do agree, however, that upsets often happen in group stages (but apparently everyone hates upsets...). Flash lost to sSak and Classic in MSL and Hyuk and Kal in OSL sometime in 2011, and boom, out of both leagues. It's an occupational hazard.
On August 30 2012 02:43 Salazarz wrote: Actually, if anything, BO1 is LESS random than BO3 if you think about it. Players are much more likely to do very one-dimensional (super greedy or super aggressive all-in/cheesy) builds in a multi-match series, whereas to cheese when playing a BO1 (be it aggressive or eco-cheese) requires massive balls and luck. Players are more likely to play conservative and safe, bringing out their most refined builds that they are most confident in. Also, with each player only having one match every few days during group stage means there is a ton of prep-time for each game, which always leads to better games.
Of course nerves play a bigger part in BO1, especially once you get to the games that decide whether you advance or get eliminated for sure - but that is also a very good thing; how many awful GSL finals have we watched just because one of the finalists ends up throwing the games completely due to nerves? If the players who can't handle pressure get filtered out in groups, all the better.
Sorry but no matter how you spin it BO1s are NOT good. This has been discussed to death, mainly during the GSL blizzard cup where everyone basically agreed that the games didn't mean anything because they were BO1. It's too easy for someone to get lucky and take a game off a better player, it's much less likely for them to take a BO3. Until OSL switches to a BO3 format I guess it will have to continue being just that: for the non hardcore fans who don't care about the best players winning.
Well its worked well for the past 10 years even if it was for BW and it seems to be doing its job well in SC2. When I watch the GSL, the players dont seem to take it so seriously in the Bo3. The situation is completely different in the Bo1 roundrobin format everytime the camera zooms into their facial expressions. Maybe its the whole KeSPA vs ESF thing, but Bo1s means every win counts -> players tend to prepare more -> games are tend to be really good as most players opt for safe builds -> cheeses/allins take more balls than in a Bo3 series -> filters out the players with nerve issues which imo isn't a formula for a winning player.
Add your argument about the so called "best players" winning is moot because the best player on that day will win regardless of it being Bo1 or Bo3. Luck can be involved, but MVP agrees that a little bit of it must follow for you to win the tournament.
I also tend to think OSL production/hype/story (been watching OSLs from a long time ago) is much better than GSL even if the latter has more games to watch and more prize money on the line.
Bo1 with no preparation time is stupid, but Bo1 with extensive preparation time is something special imo. It really calls upon each player to prepare something special..
Without the OSL ro16 round robin format, we wouldn't have this game + Show Spoiler +
On August 30 2012 04:47 Luepert wrote: What I learned. Best of ones suck in starcraft 2. For players and fans alike.
I think you might be saying that from the heart because you're favorite or heavily liked players lost.
However if you look at just the gameplay, Kespa played like goddesses, while ESF played like farmers. For the most part at least. Had I not known the players names beforehand, I wouldnt be surprised at the winner.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
Good point. He may be the greatest RTS player of all time, but because the OP saw him play a single game (which he won very convincingly) he's nothing special.
On August 30 2012 07:13 ]343[ wrote: I do agree, however, that upsets often happen in group stages (but apparently everyone hates upsets...).
What says that there cannot be upsets in BoX series?
No one says that, and no one says that upsets are a bad thing either. People are saying that in a bo1 its more probable for a worse player to have success then he would in a bo3. Getting lucky twice in a row is less likely then getting lucky once.
I think sc2 players are misunderstanding something about the format.
In the bo1 system, its more likely the better players end up making it through. The chance of Flash knocking out Jaedong in the Ro16 for instance can't happen because they are facing multiple people in Bo1's rather than one person in a Bo3. So you usually end up with much more epic finals, because the top seeds are more likely to make it through.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
Good point. He may be the greatest RTS player of all time, but because the OP saw him play a single game (which he won very convincingly) he's nothing special.
Right now he's no more special than the top Warcraft 3 players who switched over to Starcraft 2.
On August 30 2012 15:45 sluggaslamoo wrote: I think sc2 players are misunderstanding something about the format.
In the bo1 system, its more likely the better players end up making it through. The chance of Flash knocking out Jaedong in the Ro16 for instance can't happen because they are facing multiple people in Bo1's rather than one person in a Bo3. So you usually end up with much more epic finals, because the top seeds are more likely to make it through.
There is a difference between a bo1 system and a round robin system.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
Good point. He may be the greatest RTS player of all time, but because the OP saw him play a single game (which he won very convincingly) he's nothing special.
Right now he's no more special than the top Warcraft 3 players who switched over to Starcraft 2.
There's a big difference between Flash and the top WC3 players.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
Good point. He may be the greatest RTS player of all time, but because the OP saw him play a single game (which he won very convincingly) he's nothing special.
Right now he's no more special than the top Warcraft 3 players who switched over to Starcraft 2.
There's a big difference between Flash and the top WC3 players.
Well he said "Right now" and its true, but asserting Flash, Jaedong, or even Bisu,Stork or Fantasy potential is a matter of years, cause their potential in sc2 is not even scratched "right now".
Fantasy's macro was anything but impeccable. He was floating enough money to throw down 3 cc's at a time and still had enough money left do pump out an entire production round of marines..
On August 30 2012 17:14 Fragile51 wrote: Fantasy's macro was anything but impeccable. He was floating enough money to throw down 3 cc's at a time and still had enough money left do pump out an entire production round of marines..
Yes and still he shut down Nestea pretty hard, just like he did in BW vs top players while floating money. It just shows how strong other areas he has if he could become Top5 BW player with a bad characteristic like that.
But i think most flaws people point out are managable to fix with smart UI use in SC2, Fantasy never had that good APM but given smart use of SC2 UI its fixable. Same with Best Immortals.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
Good point. He may be the greatest RTS player of all time, but because the OP saw him play a single game (which he won very convincingly) he's nothing special.
Right now he's no more special than the top Warcraft 3 players who switched over to Starcraft 2.
There's a big difference between Flash and the top WC3 players.
Pretty sure moon dominated WC3 harder than flash dominated Bw, and so far moon has had better SC2 results than flash, so the only difference isn't quite the one you would like to believe.
On August 30 2012 02:20 Monsen wrote: Flash is nothing special... Are you high? That kid held 2400+ Elo for a bazillion months in a row in a system where 2200 was considered elite and 2300 "god (s-class) tier". And against the toughest competition on the planet no less- pretty sure he is special. These puny few months of SC2 mean nothing as an indicator for his talents.
Are you fucking high and retarded? OP obviously meant SC2 lol.
Good point. He may be the greatest RTS player of all time, but because the OP saw him play a single game (which he won very convincingly) he's nothing special.
Right now he's no more special than the top Warcraft 3 players who switched over to Starcraft 2.
There's a big difference between Flash and the top WC3 players.
Pretty sure moon dominated WC3 harder than flash dominated Bw, and so far moon has had better SC2 results than flash, so the only difference isn't quite the one you would like to believe.
Moon was severely dissapointing in SC2(and Grubby for that matter aswell, they were both outplayed by their way inferior colleagues), if Flash would achieve exact same results as him it would be considered failure. Im just being honest here. Flash was the most dominating starcraft player so if he won't claim few OSL/GSL titles at least it will be automatical failure reputation wise.
On August 29 2012 01:33 Aunvilgod wrote: - What we see now does not mean anything. The game is way too young in the hands of the KeSPA players. We should see how things have developed until next year imo.
This.
The better KeSPA SC2 players are most likely better because they have been practicing longer, in a year no KeSPA player will have that advantage, or at least it won't be as noticeable.
EPT
its FLASH dude, come on
