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Lessons from OSL Kespa vs GOM competition - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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jellyjello
Profile Joined March 2011
Korea (South)664 Posts
August 29 2012 04:17 GMT
#181
LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.

And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.
Jmanthedragonguy
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada1202 Posts
August 29 2012 04:24 GMT
#182
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:

1, Fuck micro and multitask. The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas. Parting won, but only because he had the good sense to see what Ty was doing and and the right reaction to it. Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable.
2. Kespa players are not ahead, not yet. It is safe to say that GSL players still have a very slight advantage. I will not speculate whether it will hold or Kespa will take over. Both have an equal chance to improve at this point, so let's see how they adjust.
3. Experience counts. DRG and Parting won by sheer force of slyness and knowledge of the game.
4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I


1. Yeahm gotta agree with you on that one. But their are exceptions. In an interview even the Kespa players admit they are impressed by MKP's micro, so top tier players should still be comparable imo.

2. I agree. A the moment i would way that the kespa players have a higher chance to advance. Afterwards it'll the be GSL player's turn to catch up, and they will hopefully be able to learn from the kespa players. A higher skillcap all around

3. Yep

4. For the most part I agree. Even in the proleague games Flash hasn't really shined. (I found his game vs Bisu moderately impressive tho.) Nonetheless I expect great things from Flash, although i doubt he'll reprive his godlyness unfortunately.
ffrozenfish
Profile Joined May 2011
820 Posts
August 29 2012 04:35 GMT
#183
all this based on four best of 1?
Give us our snipe back - Ghost
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
August 29 2012 04:36 GMT
#184
On August 29 2012 13:17 jellyjello wrote:
LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.

And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.


To be fair, Flash is known for having probably the best macro on the planet.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Ragnar1
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia88 Posts
August 29 2012 04:51 GMT
#185
I don't get the line that Flash wasn't impressive. I felt it was a dominating performance. I guess people are looking for exceptional multitasking and aggression to be impressed?

He played very similar to how he does in BW, aggressive expansions and applying enough pressure to San to not allow him to be equally as greedy. Also his ghost transition timing was fantastic, he was getting his ghost energy even before the first engagement where he looked to trade armies. As soon as that happens 5 or 6 ghosts come straight out.
AgentW
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States7725 Posts
August 29 2012 04:57 GMT
#186
FanTaSy has BoxeR now. Explains everything.
Who's the bigger scrub, the scrub, or the scrub who loses to him?
Cink
Profile Joined April 2010
United States93 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-29 05:02:17
August 29 2012 04:57 GMT
#187
Are there vods of the games anywhere? I didn't get to watch them.

Edit: never mind found the twitch channel.
Samsung KHAN| Stork4Lyfe
Jacmert
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1709 Posts
August 29 2012 05:04 GMT
#188
On August 29 2012 01:34 AngryMag wrote:
My conclusion would be that you cannot draw conclusion from such a small sample of games. We should wait for a year or so of competition until we start to evaluate. Let's just wait and see what happens....

Umm, a year is an eternity when it comes to SC2. Two to three months is already a lot of time, even for the metagame. I think you and I would agree that it could take roughly a year before we see the Kespa players up around peak form, but it's possible that the Kespa players pull ahead of the GSL players within a month or two. Or, we could see the Kespa players plateau or even fall, relative to the GSL players. Both possibilities are worth looking out for in the next 1-2 months and would be interesting developments.
Plat Support Main #believe
silent_owl
Profile Joined March 2011
Philippines3098 Posts
August 29 2012 05:23 GMT
#189
On August 29 2012 12:06 BackSideAttack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote:
we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.

In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.

The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.

The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW.


I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret.


Hrmm... Another reference to Idra. Idra was GIVEN the seed.
"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles." - Sun Tzu
Flamingo777
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1190 Posts
August 29 2012 05:26 GMT
#190
On August 29 2012 01:46 Natespank wrote:
There are no lessons to be learned in this thread. Further, it isn't even a finished OP, it ends with:

"4. Flash is nothing special. I will not speculate what is happening to him since I"

It's like saying that my reply here should be titled "What we have learned from Dr" and leave it at that.

Same here, I don't see what there is to discuss.
6BiT
Profile Joined December 2011
513 Posts
August 29 2012 05:29 GMT
#191
So all I got out of this thread was Fantasy looks really impressive from his bo1 against NesTea, of course Fantasy is going to be a powerhouse. He was pretty much the strongest terran at the end of professional Korean BW.

A big part of Boxer's job at SKT1 is to develop Fantasy into an sc2 champion.

The current crop of kespa players won't dominate sc2, they will for sure add more competition.


The time when its going to get really exciting further down the line when they are playing in finals against the best esf / foreign players when each side has a decent amount of vods to analyse and time to prepare for their opponents. That's gonna be epic.
stuff & things
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
August 29 2012 05:38 GMT
#192
On August 29 2012 01:40 massivez wrote:
To soon to jump onto conclusions.

But anyway,

1. Fantasy's micro in protecting his marines + sniping banelings was impressive.
2. To me some are on the same level already (Roro, Effort, Jaedong, Fantasy, By.sun, CJhero), but they lack some general gamesense sometimes.
3. Flash didn't impress me that much either, he seems like macro hard and try to overpower the opponent with pure macro. Didn't see any harass. But ill give him some time, he is a practice beast.


Um yeah, that is Flash's normal playstyle. He was never a multitasker or harasser or, he was a strategic macro player.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-29 05:54:12
August 29 2012 05:50 GMT
#193
On August 29 2012 13:36 GolemMadness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 13:17 jellyjello wrote:
LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.

And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.


To be fair, Flash is known for having probably the best macro on the planet.


Anyone that thinks Flash is/was all about strategy is retarded. His mechanics are right up there with the best. If anyone actually watched BW you'd know all Flash ever did was 14cc every game when he was dominating. The guy just had insane control/macro which allowed him to get away with it every single game. This, coupled with his amazing game sense is why he was God.

Edit: Wow what is with all the people saying Flash didn't harass or multitask. There were plenty of games where he dissects players attacking them all over the map. Even Jaedong couldn't keep up 1/2 the time. He just didn't do it every game...
Aelonius
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands432 Posts
August 29 2012 05:56 GMT
#194
I want people like Flash to be beastly. They might become so again.
But right now every KeSPA player is highly overestimated and overly hyped. It's a different game, let's see what happens.
''The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.''—Ronald Reagan
sinigang
Profile Joined August 2012
360 Posts
August 29 2012 06:01 GMT
#195
On August 29 2012 14:04 Jacmert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 01:34 AngryMag wrote:
My conclusion would be that you cannot draw conclusion from such a small sample of games. We should wait for a year or so of competition until we start to evaluate. Let's just wait and see what happens....

Umm, a year is an eternity when it comes to SC2. Two to three months is already a lot of time, even for the metagame. I think you and I would agree that it could take roughly a year before we see the Kespa players up around peak form, but it's possible that the Kespa players pull ahead of the GSL players within a month or two. Or, we could see the Kespa players plateau or even fall, relative to the GSL players. Both possibilities are worth looking out for in the next 1-2 months and would be interesting developments.


C'mon, be less neutral in your comments
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
August 29 2012 06:19 GMT
#196
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas.


Yeah, Nestea didn't play SC:BW. Oh wait... he did, so check your facts next time.
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
August 29 2012 06:22 GMT
#197
I wonder why people think threads like this contribute anything @_@
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Kleinmuuhg
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Vanuatu4091 Posts
August 29 2012 06:26 GMT
#198
number 4 makes me cringe its FLASH dude, come on
This is our town, scrub
Noruxas
Profile Joined April 2012
Netherlands129 Posts
August 29 2012 06:29 GMT
#199
The thing that blew me away was Flash his macro and Fantasy's multitasking. I think Korean Terrans has now been given a new meaning :/
MVP - MMA - Flash - Polt - Gumiho - Jiakji - Last
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
August 29 2012 06:35 GMT
#200
On August 29 2012 15:19 darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
The rumors are true, in terms of micro and multitask, indeed sc1 >>> sc2 players.. Nestea and even Parting where simply outclassed in these areas.


Yeah, Nestea didn't play SC:BW. Oh wait... he did, so check your facts next time.


He hasn't played since 2009 and he was pretty bad. Not really the same thing as someone like Fantasy.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
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