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RESULTS will speak. let those come first
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On August 29 2012 13:17 jellyjello wrote:
LOL at ppl not impressed with Flash. That was one of the most dominating Terran plays vs turtle Protoss. Flash mind-gamed the fuck out of San, and in the end San had the look of "what the fuck, I just got owned" face.
And that's exactly what Flash is all about. He is not known for micro or macro, but rather his spectacular overall strategy which traps the other player to his own will.
San played like crap though, no presure and scared in his pants passive play let Flash build up those CC's. Also attacking at bad engagements.
Flash will be good no doubt, he needs some more experience to make that sick sense of his work perfectly. I just think that Fantasy will be even more superior to him then he was at the end of Broodwar. Even with less Sc2 play Fantasy looked the best of the Kespa players in OSL to me personaly ofc. (and he has Boxer now to coach, can't hurt either)
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On August 29 2012 14:23 silent_owl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 12:06 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote:
we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW. I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret. Hrmm... Another reference to Idra. Idra was GIVEN the seed.
Source?
I'm pretty sure there are videos of him playing at the qualifiers for the first 3 GSL opens, but I'm not 100% certain.
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United States97277 Posts
On August 29 2012 16:19 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 14:23 silent_owl wrote:On August 29 2012 12:06 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 29 2012 08:17 emythrel wrote:
we can keep going on about this all we like, BW players caught up so fast blah blah... ofc they did. The original SC2 players had to do all the heavy lifting, figuring out what works and what doesn't, making refined builds, finding the right timings etc etc etc. When the BW players finally made the switch, all they had to do was take their superior mechanics and learn what the original SC2 players spent 2 years figuring out.
In the future, the kespa players will play their part shaping the metagame, creating builds and such but at the moment they are just riding the backs of the people who went before them, same as they did in BW. Flash is a god, no doubt but he came in to a game that was already figured out pretty well and then practiced until he was better at doing what everyone else was already doing. Its really like saying that modern footballers (soccer) would obviously beat footballers from the 1960's.. ofc they would.... there has been another 40 years of development in training and fitness techniques.
The BW players also have 2 years worth of VODs and replays to study of the top eSF players and the eSF p[layers have maybe 6-7 VODs to study of the kespa players. Thats not an even playing field. No one knows whether the kespa players will dominate or whether they will be equal or worse... a year down the line, then we will know. Until then all these threads are pretty much mute. Most people will be on one side or the other simply because they either are BW fanboi's or SC2 fanboi's..... Myself, I am a fanboi of epic matches and don't really care who comes out on top so long as I get to tag along for the ride.
The only reason I'm hoping kespa players don't start dominating is because I worry that kespa itself will take over the scene and kill any interest in the foreign scene and defo won't allow players from foreign teams to compete in its league or say let Team Liquid play in Proleague... worse of all they will probably take away licenses from players who leave a kespa team to play for an eSF team or a foreign team (because players will go where the money is, if EG offer good money to a kespa player who is on a low or non existant salary, some will take it). I'm hope i'm wrong but if kespa take over, the likelyhood is that the foreign scene will be demoted to little league status as it was in BW. I'm actually hoping that they do take over somewhat, so that foreigners stop getting seeds just for being foreigners. You should have to earn your seed, just like in the old days with idra, nony, and ret. Hrmm... Another reference to Idra. Idra was GIVEN the seed. Source? I'm pretty sure there are videos of him playing at the qualifiers for the first 3 GSL opens, but I'm not 100% certain.
I think there is some confusing. IdrA earned his seed in the early GSLs the first time he was there. He was given a seed when he went back in GSL 1 2012
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On August 29 2012 06:02 Andr3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 05:49 rysecake wrote:On August 29 2012 05:45 mrtomjones wrote:On August 29 2012 05:44 rysecake wrote:On August 29 2012 05:41 mrtomjones wrote:
Oh god dude. lol. Kespa mechanics are NOT better universally. I saw plenty of things that they did wrong or moments when macro slipped. How can you argue that Parting was out micro'd when HE had the harder job to do? Defending those drops and the pressure at the front is harder for the Protoss than the Terran. Drg won because Jangbi was not experienced enough and had nothing to do with superior mechanics on either side although Jangbi made at least 3 bad mechanical errors, I can easily attribute those to a lack of experience since he started SC2 last. Nestea just looked BAD and has been rolled by multiple good and bad Terran players lately so that is not an example of BW mechanics winning. Fantasy's play looked very good with his dropship harass, but he had excess minerals on hand and that strategy hasnt worked against Zerg like that in ages. As for ManZenith vs Flash.. Flash picked a clever build and San decided he could win that without getting Storm which he couldnt, so between the good and the bad San got rolled. I've read some funny things in my time here... Yes kespa mechanics are better universally. It's really not possible for anyone to argue that. What esf players have to their advantage is build orders, timings, how to execute an attack etc. They have experience on their side, not raw hand speed. Wow ignorance at its worst. It is nice to know that literally every BW player has better mechanics than EVERYONE else. So ignorant. It is very possible to argue that but not with someone who has already made up their mind, so I am done here. It's not ignorance, it's truth. You remember mvp in his prime? You remember those mechanics? You seem to forget nestea, drg, and parting are all ex bw players. Remember flash's interview saying nestea was a genius in bw, but he just didn't have the mechanics to execute his brilliance? So the argument is a-team mechanics > b-team mechanics? Yes I think this one is pretty obvious. I'm not saying kespa > gsl players. I'm saying kespa mechanics > gsl mechanics. Plus from your post history it seems pretty blatant you're a hardcore esf fan. Who's talking about bias now? And before you go ahead and call me a bw fanboy, I entered the starcraft scene with sc2. Generally yes, kespa mechanics > esf. And MVP in his prime didn't have insane mechanics as you said, MVP never was a mechanical player...he's super smart and just wins like Nestea. They both arren't that fast, MVP maxes at like 180-190 eapm. But on the other hand you got players like DRG,Hero,Taeja,Supernova who all got 200+ eapm - getting even to 220-230. Mechanics don't even matter all that much, in the recent IEM games Yongwha had an average of ~210 eapm every game and he lost to those pesky EU zergs who have like 170-180. MVP had around ~150-170. Fantasy showed some great multitasking but I think what was more important is that Nestea was having a hard time defending all that.
Mvp has one of the highest APMs I have ever seen on SC2 Gears. Its around the high 300s and even gets to 400 average in some games. From a sample of 10 games, he actually has slightly more apm then even Taeja, who gets in the upper 300s. Point is MVP does have insane mechanics.
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On August 29 2012 01:39 Rubber wrote:
Real question: Why do you think such a small series of one-off games offers any conclusive insight into the play of KeSPA players?
I agree with this one, 4 bo1 is very small sample to come to these conclusions. Althought there has been more GOM vs Kespa I would still say it's too early to say.
I feel it would be more to talk about if he instead brought up the wcs matches, gom vs kespa. A much larger sample size.
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On August 29 2012 17:36 Spiner wrote:
Mvp has one of the highest APMs I have ever seen on SC2 Gears. Its around the high 300s and even gets to 400 average in some games. From a sample of 10 games, he actually has slightly more apm then even Taeja, who gets in the upper 300s. Point is MVP does have insane mechanics.
APM does not equal mechanics. You can press buttons fast but execute your build, unit control or general game plan sloppily. Not to dispute MVP's mechanical prowess, but rating mechanics by APM is incorrect.
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Honestly think it's the best thing that's happened to the scene, has renewed my interest and then some in sc2. Was initially reluctant to see bw go because i thought it was (and still do) the more entertaining game to watch, but now i'm hoping with continued balancing and such and can get it close to there.
It might've caused some drama but damn if this drama hasn't been entertaining. Think they should push it more with a kespa vs esf dream team match kinda like the end of season show matches they did in bw, then a massive kespa and esf proleague.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
The funny thing is that they said the same when Flash first started SC1. "He's just a cheater, noob blah, blah, blah!" And then he destroyed everybody...It depends if Flash still has the drive to become the best in SC2 also. I mean practicing 14h/day is pretty damn hard...He had some slumps in SC1 also when he lost to almost everybody but then he came back even stronger. In 2010 he obliterate his competition, he won everything 3-0,3-0.. He made the second best BW player Jaedong look like a noob in that year.
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All i read is "my herp is better than your derp".
Jesus. If those BW players wouldnt show results like they do they sure wouldn't be worthy of calling themselves fulltime progamers.
If SC2 players would die like flies to BW players in sc2 they sure woudln't be worthy of calling themselves fulltime programes.
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With HotS and the reset of the metagame we will really see which players have the best ability to adapt.
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I just saw the vods. There are a lot of things to observe between the competition, but the ultimate thing seems to be that KeSPA will eventually be the best players in SC2.
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Russian Federation367 Posts
TS, tell me at what league are you playing, please?
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Elephants on the way. KeSPA will be the future of sc2.
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All I was thinking was, 'poor foreigners'. We thought it was hard now. We got kespa players with very little practice making a good showing in a community we cant seem to touch.
Oh well, they say BW is harder for a reason.
Id be anxious to know some foreigner pros thoughts. The games have some fundamentals in common, but theyre still very different.
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well sc2 is much more fun to watch with the true pros now involved
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On August 29 2012 01:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Fantasy's marine micro might be the best I've seen, better than MMA even, and those drop harass + macro is impeccable.
? He was floating so many resources at times during mid-game...
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On August 29 2012 22:26 Boonbag wrote:
well sc2 is much more fun to watch with the true pros now involved
Seriously.. ? Game quality was reaaally bad. Regardless who won. Not the usual GSL quality where crisp executions and crisis management.
There was little to none excitement in most games I watched. It's either a Kespa player sucking, a GSL player sucking, or both of them sucking.
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On August 29 2012 22:38 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 22:26 Boonbag wrote:
well sc2 is much more fun to watch with the true pros now involved Seriously.. ? Game quality was reaaally bad. Regardless who won. Not the usual GSL quality where crisp executions and crisis management. There was little to none excitement in most games I watched. It's either a Kespa player sucking, a GSL player sucking, or both of them sucking.
Fantasy vs Nestea was sick dude. Don't get to see that kind of micro/harass very often.
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On August 29 2012 22:38 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 22:26 Boonbag wrote:
well sc2 is much more fun to watch with the true pros now involved There was little to none excitement in most games I watched. It's either a Kespa player sucking, a GSL player sucking, or both of them sucking.
This is how I feel about 99% of SC2 games I watch regardless of which players are in it.
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EPT
